CANON Darth Vader vs Obi Wan Kenobi

Jedi Master vs Dark Lord of the Sith

All of the previous Obi Wan and Vader battles I could find were either started when Legends was considered Canon, or only take into account Movie Feats. So once and for all, I wanted to create and end the Debate between Jedi Master and the Dark Lord of the Sith using Official Canon sources Only

Rules:

Both characters are In-Character with Killer Intent

Both characters are in their Canon Primes

Canon Feats Only (Movies, Movie Novelizations, The Clone Wars, Rebels, and all New-Canon Source Materials. NO LEGENDS)

Both Characters have Standard Gear and Knowledge

Scenario:

Location: Tatooine

Plot: Both Prime Canon characters encounter each other in the Deserts of Tatooine. Both Have Killer Intent

Vader should take the solid majority. He has killed way more jedi than Obi-wan killed sith, is more ruthless, and has a stronger connection to the force and is more likely to use it to try and kill and definitely has more experience using it to kill. Vader is also physically stronger and more durable as well.

That being said, prime Kenobi would not make it easy for him. He has the speed advantage, has an amazing defense, and has shown he could stalemate Vader for a bit in ep 4 and the way he dealt with Maul in Rebels showed how much of a master he has become.

So Vader wins, but in a great fight.

Vader should win this mod diff he's far superior to Obi Wan in all aspects and an argument could be made that ANH Ben is better than Obi Wan.

Vader stomps Obi-wan.

@americanspeeddemon: A New Hope Ben is Obi-Wan, and we already know that he threw that fight. You'd have to have a pretty substantial argument to say that Obi-Wan is stronger as a decrepit old hermit living in the desert than at the end of RoTS or the years immediately following, based on Canon.

@mygod101 Can you prove it decisively using Canon material..? I'm more interested in the actual arguments than just stating "Vader stomps Obi Wan" as if its obvious, since Legends Material isn't on the table.

Lol'd at Vader stomping. Good one.

OT, Vader still wins. Been done. A canon source already states he's the best in terms of pure dueling skill, and in terms of TK he has better feats than pretty much anyone aside from the likes of Yoda/Sheev.

Ben was stated as stronger than Jedi Master Obi-Wan (which is supported by feats as he was able to solidly defeats Maul), and while he did throw the fight, in his own novel he talks about how Vader was clearly winning the duel.

And keep in mind that between ANH and RoTJ Vader improves significantly. Not to mention the fact that Vader has vastly greater force power than Obi-Wan.

Overall i see Darth Vader taking a solid majority.

Vader was able to force Choke Palpatine, and Palpatine begged Vader not to Kill Tarkin when Some mysterious assassins tried to Kill Vader.

This is a Stomp, Vader has far more experience then he did when he fought Obi-wan and even back then he was leagues better than Obi-wan; The only reason Obi-wan did so well was because Of Anakin's Mental state, and they spent most of their lives as sparing partners. Vader after he got handicapped spent the most of his time refining his dueling skills and changing his style.

Ben Was actually better, him being out of practices doesn't mean he was weaker, or anything like that. as it was stated Ol Ben Kenobi could have one shotted Vader If Vader let his guard down in that duel. you can make the claim that he wasn't quite as athletic as he was in his youth, but he was still 20 years more experience then he had back then. If I recall, Yoda gave Obi-wan Special training with his old Master.

Simply put, Vader Slits Obi-wan End to end and Gives him Wings.

Vader unquestionably

Let's goe hoehm Aaahsix

@thetragedyof: Are you just going to spam this on every Star Wars thread?

@breakofdawn:

Is that leeeegal?

Canon Vader is OP, if we're talking prime versions of both then Vader takes it pretty easily.

This would end quite abruptly for Obi-Wan.

@mygod101: Palpatine begged Vader not to Kill Tarkin when Some mysterious assassins tried to Kill Vader.

No, he didn't. Sidious commands Vader to not kill him, nowhere does Sidious beg. Let alone from Vader of all people, lmao.

Tell me exactly which part of this portrays Sidious "begging" Vader for anything.

as it was stated Ol Ben Kenobi could have one shotted Vader If Vader let his guard down in that duel.

Non-canon. Kenobi himself admitted he had no hope of winning the fight.

@dawn_of_ages said:

@mygod101: Palpatine begged Vader not to Kill Tarkin when Some mysterious assassins tried to Kill Vader.

No, he didn't. Sidious commands Vader to not kill him, nowhere does Sidious beg. Let alone from Vader of all people, lmao.

Tell me exactly which part of this portrays Sidious "begging" Vader for anything.

as it was stated Ol Ben Kenobi could have one shotted Vader If Vader let his guard down in that duel.

Non-canon. Kenobi himself admitted he had no hope of winning the fight.

Sidious Feared Vader...As you can see regardless of the Fact people were going to die by Vader. Sidious wanted to avoid a fight with Vader so he gave him what he wanted. Trust me Sidious isn't above Begging he done it before, I he was not going to deny Vader after He got force Choked out of his chain by Vader.

we all know That was non-canon now, but my point is that Obi-wan was more powerful than people give him credit. Trust me I know Vader was told much For Ben, which is why he stomps this fight and slits him from end to end, and gives Obi-wan wings.

Official canon has Obi Wan beating him every time. Prime vader power wise was Anakin. He was ridiculously powerful as Vader, and very good, but not what he should have been since so much of his body was gone.

You would need a combination of Anakins raw force ability and Vader for him to beat Obi Wan. As it is, Obi Wan is up on him...first trouncing Anakin, and then as an old man he only lost because he intended to.

Canon also includes TCW and Rebels, and frankly, Obi Wan has too many feats to lose.

You are Exaggerating here. Vader did lose a good chunk, but he only lose about 40%. regardless, Vader would have still surpassed Palpatine eventually. he was already close to his powers with the force and Leagues better than Palpatine ever could hope to be with a light saber. Obi-wan would get merked. He Hide from Vader for a reason, because he couldn't finish the job, Yoda couldn't do anything but watch from his hut as the Sith Empire Ruled for almost 2 decades.

Rebels? you mean beating Maul? ….LMFAO he was scared shitless of Vader, and needed 3 other Jedi just to beat him while he was comfortable fighting Obi-wan by himself, that clearly shows there is a massive gap in Vader and Obi-wan.

Maul got Wrecked by Sheev palpatine in Saber duel with his brother helping him....Palpatine is complete Shite with a Light saber what do you think is going to happen when he Fights Vader? he will get obliterated.

@mygod101:

Sidious Feared Vader...As you can see regardless of the Fact people were going to die by Vader. Sidious wanted to avoid a fight with Vader so he gave him what he wanted.

Nothing even remotely suggests that.

Trust me Sidious isn't above Begging he done it before, I he was not going to deny Vader after He got force Choked out of his chain by Vader.

Not once did Sidious beg Vader, lmao.

Vader immediately stops the moment Sidious threatens him. Vader released his hold because he knew Sidious would've broken free anyway and killed him on the spot. Vader outright admits that he would've died against Sidious. Its as if you never read the comic.

@dawn_of_ages said:

@mygod101:

Sidious Feared Vader...As you can see regardless of the Fact people were going to die by Vader. Sidious wanted to avoid a fight with Vader so he gave him what he wanted.

Nothing even remotely suggests that.

Trust me Sidious isn't above Begging he done it before, I he was not going to deny Vader after He got force Choked out of his chain by Vader.

Not once did Sidious beg Vader, lmao.

Vader immediately stops the moment Sidious threatens him. Vader released his hold because he knew Sidious would've broken free anyway and killed him on the spot. Vader outright admits that he would've died against Sidious. Its as if you never read the comic.

Ofc Vader would have died then....he had just got the suit. anyways this is going no where, we both know Sidious Feared Vader otherwise he wouldn't have put him in a suit that was weak against Force lighting which is Sheev's Go to move, and weakened him.

Well....I mean, will Sidious be using his Light saber to do that, Or his force powers? Me personally, I hope it is the latter at least then Vader will have a challenge, Sheev knows he is crap with a saber.

I am going to say the obvious here, Sheev will never get to have that pleasure since Vader Killed him. let get back on Topic, So you a Agree this is a Stomp in favor of Vader because all the experience Vaders has he isn't the same Guy as before, he is now a Master.

Yeah, I'd need "offficial canon" evidence for that.

Because as far as "official canon" goes, Vader's the best in terms lightsaber skill among the Sith, and his TK completely defecates on Kenobi's.

And regardless of Kenobi "losing because he intended to" he already states he was fighting an uphill battle, and outright admits that he has no hope of winning of winning against Vader.

@mygod101: It doesn't matter whether it's the Force or a lightsaber duel. Vader gets his ass handed to him by Sidious.

Canon Vader wins, He’s more powerful and Kenobi doesn’t have the same feats he has in legends. However,it won’t be easy for him, since an out of prime kenobi was clearly challenging him.

@mygod101: You are heavily overestimating Vader and underestimating Palpatine. Vader is at best about the same as Palpatine in saber skill, he is not leagues better. And Maul just said he couldn’t beat Vader alone, we don’t know how much of a fight he would put up.

Vader has no chance against Palpatine, he flat out admitted it in the movies saying he needed Luke to win and that the emperor or was too powerful.

Yeah, but in a comparison of their performances against Ahsoka, Vader performed significantly better despite Ahsoka having a stylistic advantage. Though it depends on how much of a factor her fighting style was, it's pretty obvious that Vader isn't replicating Sidious' ownage of Maul.

@dawn_of_ages: Yeah, Vader definitely beats Maul, he just doesn’t beat Sidious like the other guy is claiming.

Vader

Vader wins this, but he does get stomped by Sidious who would never beg- in fact, Vader would be the one begging for mercy after being disarmed within seconds.

In force Powers sure Palpatine wins that flat out, But in saber skills....No, Vader is clearly stated to be the better duelist no if ands or buts about it.

Judging by how swift and easy obi-wan Defeated Maul...Vader would obliterate maul far easier. Not, saying it be the same as Palpatine, since He used Force lighting in that duel and wrecked instantly wrecked them. I am arguing that Sidious better not pick up a saber to fight Vader, because then the fight is up in the air on who wins while with Force powers it clear that Sidious would win.

I trying to let @dawn_of_ages know, I understand Sidious wins in force powers, but Saber skills isn't as cut and dry. Sidious is Shite with a Light Saber.

Mace Windu Was able to Beat Sidious in Saber Skills, and Mace is weaker than Vader, Force wise, and Saber skills Wise. You guys are not hearing me out, Sidious isn't as good at Vader with Saber skills he can't milk that cow.

@dawn_of_ages: You need the official canon for that? You mean like when Obi Wan cut Anakin to pieces? Tell you what, why don't you name your sources for Vader and then back themup with feats? Because all of Kenobis prequels, TCW and Febels feats apply here, and outside of the original trilogy...Vader has almost none.

ObiWan...beat Anakin, stomped Maul and Savage Oppress and as an Old Man was still dead even with Vader until he let him win so Obi could join the force. In every direct comparison we have of them...Obi-wan has bested or matched him and Vader doesn't have the requisite feats to overcome the sheer volume of Obiwan's appearances.

@mygod101:

But in saber skills....No, Vader is clearly stated to be the better duelist no if ands or buts about it.

The only thing he's confirmed to be better in is in terms of skill. Superior skill means jack shit when your enemy is significantly physically faster and stronger than you. Vader doesn't have a single strength/speed feat that matches Sidious'.

Judging by how swift and easy obi-wan Defeated Maul

An out-of-prime, thirsty, hungry, Maul, who literally had chunks falling out of his robot legs.

It's already stated that the fight was based on ancient samurai fights wherein the winner of the duel was decided by one move, it was decisive even if the fighters were a good match for each other. Hence, a decisive victory isn't necessarily indicative of a vast disparity in this case.

...Vader would obliterate maul far easier.

Except Kenobi's decisive victory was attributed to his familiarity with Maul's style and his experience in clashing with him multiple times throughout TCW...something Vader doesn't have.

And given both of their performances against Ahsoka, nothing suggests Vader is massively superior to Maul.

I am arguing that Sidious better not pick up a saber to fight Vader, because then the fight is up in the air on who wins while with Force powers it clear that Sidious would win.

I trying to let @dawn_of_ages know, I understand Sidious wins in force powers, but Saber skills isn't as cut and dry. Sidious is Shite with a Light Saber.

No, it really isn't "up in the air."

Vader's superior "saber skill" isn't saving him from Sidious' vastly greater speed and strength.

Mace Windu Was able to Beat Sidious in Saber Skills and Mace is weaker than Vader, Force wise, and Saber skills Wise.

Something highly doubtful given that Talzin stalemated Mace in a duel, yet she was nigh-instantly disarmed by Sidious.

And there's hardly clear cut evidence of Vader being a better duelist than Mace.

You guys are not hearing me out

Can you really blame us?

………..Sidious isn't a duelist, All he does is try to blitz his foes with hack, and Slash. Vader skills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hack, and Slash style dueling.

Are you over here Crying over Sour grapes? Serious, Vader was far more cripple than Maul and he still manage to close the gap between Sidious, even while wearing a suit Made to make Vader weaker and hinder him. Vader was on life support, living in pain, not being able to lift his light saber over his head because of Palpatine, and the sad part about it Disney is trying to say Sidious was actually Vader's Father. Like talk about a shitty life, yet he still manage to near equal Sidious If Vader had lived longer he would have surpassed Sidious which was clear as day. Sidious wasn't going to be on top forever.

did you even watch that duel Vader had with Ahsoka? They exchanged blows, and then Vader instantly force pushed her off a platform...If Vader was seriously going for that kill he would have ended her right then. he is clearly in another league then Maul, You can't pick and Choice one thing then argue another way. that is not how things work. as you said, Vader is around Yoda/Sheev level, but not on their level. someone who is around that level would merk Maul.

I say it up in the air in Saber duel because Palpatine is shite with a blade, hack and slash isn't going to save him. That superior Strength didn't save him once Vader got ahold of him and killed him now did it?

as for your last Response fair enough, But Vader Killed Sidious, so really he didn't even need to be more powerful than Sidious to win. This feat was done while Vader was on Death door and on life support.

So, I guess we can end it with that then, Vader got the last laugh when he killed that man ease, And Sidious could do not a dam thing but scream and beg for mercy....it's just that Vader was all out of mercy at that point.

GG

@in-sidiousvader

As I am sure you are aware in LOTS Vader moves faster than Sidious could to save a Twi-lek girl, granted sheev was pre prime but Vader was as well.

When Sidious was holding back and testing Vader to draw out any treacherous attempts from the latter.

Oh really now? you're telling me a padawan who presumably sparred with Kenobi a ton whilst they were jedi and was trained by him fought beside him for years wouldn't be intimately familiar with his master's style? To say that Vader doesn't remember Anakin's life is clearly wrong as we see in Vader down he remembers Mustafar and kenobi and padme and everything else he just doesn't care... :)))

I said that Vader wouldn't have that advantage against Maul, not Kenobi. Not sure how you even misread that.

Vader was stated to be conflicted before the fight ever began when talking to ahsoka IIRC.

It's as if Filoni is saying that Vader isn't having second thoughts about killing Ahsoka ?

It was our belief that we could have this moment, but it’s not even a moment of hesitation for Vader. Because he says then, “You will die,” and he means it. He is going to destroy her, and the reason that is, is that she has knowledge of him as a good person. She represents and is a vessel for everything that he once was, and he finds such pain in that, and hatred, and anger. He doesn’t want to face what he’s become, but he just wants to destroy anything that reminds him of that former self. He doesn’t even talk about Anakin in the movies, at first, and if he is that person.

...

I think what we’ve created is an interesting point in Star Wars history and time, and time will tell if we ever actually get to see that. I do believe that Vader – and why he’s fighting her at the end, which was important – is that he wants to destroy her. So she’s really kind of stuck. And perhaps even in that moment herself thinks, “Well maybe this is the end for me.” We’ll have to wait and see.

Star Wars Rebels: Dave Filoni on Ahsoka's Fate, Maul's Return and Much More

Strength? Maybe I could concede to that, but speed they most definitely are comparable :)))

No, they're really not.

in durability sheev is flat outclassed

Durability won't help Vader when he's disarmed in seconds.

I don't think its a stretch to assume that He would beat mace considering it was a superior sheev to ROTS sheev...

It is. It really is.

Star wars Theory is the most valuable source and wealth of info for any debater. He knows the universe almost as well as Lucas and is more adept at portraying Vader than any other man woman or wookie. Clearly MYGOD101 has seen the light and has accepted vader I suggest you do the same...

Claims like his are the exact reason I stopped wanking Vader and why I'm hesitant to do so again.

@mygod101: Palpatine is a master of all 7 forms, with speed capabilities greater than any Jedi/Sith.

Vader is a master of Djem-so, and experienced is Soresu & Ataru. I think its you who is not hearing the community. Palpatine will absolutely take Vader on a light saber battle. Vader has more natural talents, but that only gets you so far. Palpatine put down his saber because he is mad powerful & doesn't need to carry one

Palpatine is a master of all 7 forms, with speed capabilities greater than any Jedi/Sith.

Sure...But That sure didn't help him when he was on the ground begging for his life after his duel with Mace Windu, Unless...he is a master of all 7 forms as well.

Vader is a master of Djem-so, and experienced is Soresu & Ataru.

Vader is the Master of Djem-so since he created it from other styles of dueling.

I think its you who is not hearing the community.

I am being completely objective and unbiased here, Just to let you know that I am not hating on Sidious...He is in fact my 3rd favorite Character in the Star wars Series just under Anakin 1) Vader 2).

Palpatine will absolutely take Vader on a light saber battle.

Sure...It only took Sidious Hindering Vader to a Suit made to make Vader weaker, and unable to lift his light saber above his head for it to be even possible for Sidious to take Vader on. even then, Sidious is going to have the biggest Struggle of his life if he takes it to Light Saber dueling against Vader.

Vader has more natural talents, but that only gets you so far.

Not disagreeing there, Maybe if Sidious stopped whoring those Holocrons for himself and Vader was able to find at least 4-5 for himself there would be no debate here. Vader while cripple was close to Sheev's range of power, and he wasn't even 50 years old yet. Dooku hard stopped in power at around 60 years of age then started growing again, when he joined Palpatine until he was about 80-81. At the end of the day Vader was 100% going to surpass Sheev Palpatine, Vader still had 60% of his overall potential.

Palpatine put down his saber because he is mad powerful & doesn't need to carry one

That is why Palpatine died, he was to overconfident in his abilities. For all that power he had, once Vader Got him, there was nothing Palpatine could do.

OT: I don't see Obi-wan lasting long against Vader. using Ahsoka as a anti Feat For Vader is foolish. Ahsoka in Rebels was better than she was when she fought Maul in the TCW, that's like 19+ years of her gaining experience. Maul out right said he was No match for Vader and was looking to join Ahsoka, and Kahan to take him on. that shows big disparity in power.

Vader while Conflicted, still was owning Ahsoka in there duel, casually force pushing her out a platform. Ahsoka only ever touched Vader when he took his eyes off of her to go get the Holocron, and was cut from behind. Even Dave Filoni Vader was conflicted during that fight. So far, the people who didn't get destroyed by Vader had a mutual relationship with him in the past, when he was Anakin people that he cared dearly for, which hindered his mindset.

Vader wins this in a complete Stomp.

@in-sidiousvader:

BUT... you neglect to mention that it is not implied how much effort Vader put into stopping his masters strike, in fact the interpretation can be drawn he did so easily

Even if I'm being generous and say that Vader didn't put all of his effort into intercepting Palpatine's blade, the feat is still impossible to quantify given that we don't know how much the latter was holding back. Hence, it doesn't make it any less invalid as evidence for Vader being faster.

BUT... again you neglect the line that I have underlined. At the end he immediately overpowers her pushing her on the defensive, that means nothing about what his state was before that, indicating that fact files and filoni can coexist.

Vader was overpowering her the same way even prior to that. Nothing changed.

The sentence just prior to that states that Vader wasn't conflicted in any way. Vader's conflict begins only when he finds out about Luke years later.

"Then you will die" isn't indicative of anything either. It's a statement of fact, a warning, a threat. That if Ahsoka refuses to retreat with Rebels and commit to fighting Vader then she has no chance of survival.

Also Ahsoka contending with Sheev after sheev performed a ritual indicates parity between the two... YES I WENT THERE :)))

You mean the part where Ahsoka had the help of Ezra and massively amped by a massive nexus, THE nexus, a quintessential point in all of space-time, and Sheev casually overpowers both of them while trying not to kill them?

And the only thing the Sheev's sorcery did was to make a gateway to allow his power to get into the World between Worlds other than that, he operating at his normal level. His use of sorcery doesn't aid him in any other way.

In fact, one could argue that that potency of Sheev's attack is limited once it enters the gateway. The attack that enters the gateway comes from Sheev's sorcery, not directly from Sheev himself. There is a limitation to the amount of power that can be transferred from Sheev's lightning directly into the altar, transformed into fiery energy, and unleashed through the portal. It isn't unreasonable to speculate that some power loss would occur with each transfer; especially considering the fact that he had to put effort into keeping the flames moving at the running speed targets.

Yeah but according to you, Vader IS more skilled than sheev. A disarm can be attributed to skill... you do not disarm somebody by simply blitzing them so in the context you describe Vader would not be disarmed by your own logic :))) :))) :))) :))) :))) :)))

A disarm can also be attributed to superior speed and strength. And in this case, Sidious is vastly superior in both.

Considering Kirak infalla was stated to be the greatest Jedi Vader ever fought and Vader entered a combat situation with Mace when he cut off his hand... NOPE. not going there, I will not be so retarded as to wank Kirak above mace this whole post is hurting my soul

The comic itself distinguishes "Vader" from "Anakin"

When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former Chosen One must take his first steps to a darker world... as Darth Vader,

Darth Vader (2017): Dark Lord of the Sith : The Chosen One

Kenobi fought Anakin, not Vader.

Not to mentionthat that Kirak accolade comes from a Marvel promotion site and not from any Lucasfilm authority, its invalid.

I hate Star Wars Theory with a passion dude. Like thats the Irony of this, he supports lucas and neglects to mention a lot of the shit that lucas did that is straight up Evil PM me for details on a man called David Prowse and how he was wiped from the star wars landscape.

Yeah, I've heard about Lucas' beef with David Prowse. Somthing about Prowse revealing spoilers just before ESB came out.

So in summary as I have made abundantly clear, these posts are trolls, PLS don't hate me, recognize da joke and how I make fun of canon Vader debaters, and have fun :)))

I know, but I couldn't help myself ?

I responded to them just in case someone else might bring up the same points.

@mygod101:

Sure...But That sure didn't help him when he was on the ground begging for his life after his duel with Mace Windu,

You mean the part that Lucas as well as the novelization confirms that Sidious purposely feigned weakness? Where it's stated that Sidious, not going all-out was still overpowering Mace? From the fight where Mace fails to react to Sidious' initial attack, killing all of Mace's allies before Mace could even react? From the fight where Sidious has Mace at blade point but somehow chooses not to run him through?

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the point in my previous response. Mace only manages to stalemate Talzin, where as Sidious disarms her almost instantly.

Unless...he is a master of all 7 forms as well.

Yeah, if only we had something confirrming it--

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."

Source: www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

Sidious is going to have the biggest Struggle of his life if he takes it to Light Saber dueling against Vader.

No, he really isn't and you've yet to prove otherwise.

That is why Palpatine died, he was to overconfident in his abilities. For all that power he had, once Vader Got him, there was nothing Palpatine could do.

While Vader was amped to high hell as per Lucas, who also says that Vader was never strong enough to take on Sidious otherwise.

Ahsoka in Rebels was better than she was when she fought Maul in the TCW

Fought?

You mean that "duel" that literally lasts a single lightsaber clash and ends up with Ahsoka having the aid of the Republic's finest soldiers ambushing Maul and trapping him in a ray shield?

That's not indicative of anything.

Maul out right said he was No match for Vader

No, he doesn't. Maul says he "can't defeat Vader alone." In no way does that translate to "I'm not a match for Vader", it just means that he is incapable of beating him. Maul admitting inferiority in no way suggests a vast disparity between the two.

was looking to join Ahsoka, and Kahan to take him on. that shows big disparity in power.

And guess what?

Maul betrays them and tries to kill them even before Vader arrives (Hint: it means he lied and never needed them in the first place. Shocker, right?)

Even Dave Filoni Vader was conflicted during that fight. So far, the people who didn't get destroyed by Vader had a mutual relationship with him in the past, when he was Anakin people that he cared dearly for, which hindered his mindset.

The quote from Filoni I posted just above literally goes against the statement.

All of the statements so far from Filoni that pertains to Vader and Ahsoka's duel says that Vader was hellbent on killing her because he wants to get rid of his past. Vader's conflict only begins once he finds out about Luke.

@dawn_of_ages:

All you did was cry in that post. I remember that initial attack of Sidious killing all of Mace allies, but as I said you can't have your cake and eat it as well. Meaning it still doesn't stop People from admitting that Sidious lost that fight, anyways that just something you Sidious Elitist use to pump him up, when push comes to shove you will go against that same Quote, and use it against Sidious saying he still lost.

Mother Talzin is here why? she was nearly killed off by Grevious, and turn corporeal. Are we going to say Grevious is above Mace windu now? If you didn't understand, It called inconsistency.

why are you Making Excuses for why Sidious died? You said he was Amp as if this was the first time This has happened in Star wars, that is the theme of Stars people getting amps and more powerful, this amp was Warranted...since Sidious Weakened Vader to the point he had to learn to fight all over again and refine his style because of Sidious being scared of him. That is not even counting the Fact that Sidious had a Off switch just incase Vader got out of line so I could talk about Sidious having all that, so the amp was fair game buddy stop crying and accept that Vader beat Sidious and killed him.

I mean Sure, Ahsoka in TCW was still a Padawan, so Ofc, she would need aid to handle a Form Sith...It just common sense. My point was, that she is far stronger than she was then and is able to handle Form Sith of Maul level pretty well now. Ahsoka in Rebels would be Master Level Jedi if she was still in the order. so...showing me that was ultimately irrelevant since I never said at any point that TCW Ahsoka could beat TCW Maul, but whatever it is your time that is being wasted not mine.

LMFAO, when that question was asked, the Actor that was voicing Maul laughed and outright said Vader would destroy Maul, and that Maul stood no chance against the empire. Then he stated that Maul vs an inquisitor then the inquisitor is in deep trouble...Judging by how Maul owned the Inquisitor I take his word for it.

That maul just being Maul, point is he never intended to fight Vader to began with so...I don't see where you are going with Bringing that up since it was clear from his fight with Kahan (who Vader toyed casually, and Kahan stated they were lucky to be alive after that fight. )Let not forget that Vader was able to grab Kahan's Light saber in mid swing and turn it off.

Let not forget that Vader during their Duel force Pushed Ahsoka off the Platform, and then went after the Holocron.

If you are going to Acknowledge the fact that Sidious Initial swing had Mace off Guard then acknowledge the fact that Vader force pushing Ahsoka under normal circumstance was a pretty much instant win, eliminate the distraction from the Holocron then Ahsoka is dead 6 ways till sunday.

@mygod101:

All you did was cry in that post.

That's a weird of spelling refuted every single one of your points. Concession accepted.

I remember that initial attack of Sidious killing all of Mace allies, but as I said you can't have your cake and eat it as well. Meaning it still doesn't stop People from admitting that Sidious lost that fight, anyways that just something you Sidious Elitist use to pump him up, when push comes to shove you will go against that same Quote, and use it against Sidious saying he still lost.

Because it outright they failed to react to Sidious' speed. And not a single quote in Canon says Sidious lost that fight, lmao.

Mother Talzin is here why? she was nearly killed off by Grevious, and turn corporeal. Are we going to say Grevious is above Mace windu now? If you didn't understand, It called inconsistency.

Except Talzin never fought Grevious. She fled and Grevious had an entire battalion backing him up.

Talzin was brought up because she faced both Mace and Sidious. And guess what? Sidious fares far better. And no it isn't attributed to inconsistency. In a comparison of their performances against similar opponents Mace has both times been outperformed by Sidious:

• Mace engages Maul in a duel and fails to capture him; Sidious instantly incapacitates Maul with TK
• Mace stalemates Talzin; Sidious disarms her nigh-instantly

The only thing Mace has going for him against Sidious is the RotS duel which is highly suspect given that

• Mace fails to react to Sidious' initial attack
• Sidious has Mace at blade point but for some reason decides not to end it there i.e. he's stalling
• Sidious was overpowering him with Lightning while holding back and faking weakness

why are you Making Excuses for why Sidious died? You said he was Amp as if this was the first time This has happened in Star wars, that is the theme of Stars people getting amps and more powerful, this amp was Warranted...since Sidious Weakened Vader to the point he had to learn to fight all over again and refine his style because of Sidious being scared of him. That is not even counting the Fact that Sidious had a Off switch just incase Vader got out of line so I could talk about Sidious having all that, so the amp was fair game buddy stop crying and accept that Vader beat Sidious and killed him.

Except said amp isn't present in the battle and hence irrelevant. Not to mention that amp only allowed Vader to tank said lightning for a couple of seconds, and what several feet? And yet he still dies.

My point was, that she is far stronger than she was then and is able to handle Form Sith of Maul level pretty well now. Ahsoka in Rebels would be Master Level Jedi if she was still in the order. so...showing me that was ultimately irrelevant since I never said at any point that TCW Ahsoka could beat TCW Maul, but whatever it is your time that is being wasted not mine.

No one's denying Ahsoka's placement, lmao.

What's in dispute is using her clashing blades with Maul literally once isn't proof that she can handle SoD Maul.

LMFAO, when that question was asked, the Actor that was voicing Maul laughed and outright said Vader would destroyMaul, and that Maul stood no chance against the empire. Then he stated that Maul vs an inquisitor then the inquisitor is in deep trouble...Judging by how Maul owned the Inquisitor I take his word for it.

LMFAO. We're using actor statements now? I guess that means Rey>Mace and Anakin ?

That maul just being Maul, point is he never intended to fight Vader to began with so

Literally the only thing that suggests Maul was avoiding Vader was the "I can't defeat Vader alone" statement which turns out to be a lie when Maul ends up trying to kill them anyway.

So what's there left to suggest that he never intended to fight Vader? Nothing.

Bringing that up since it was clear from his fight with Kahan (who Vader toyed casually, and Kahan stated they were lucky to be alive after that fight. )Let not forget that Vader was able to grab Kahan's Light saber in mid swing and turn it off.

And Maul blitzed Kanan. How is Kanan relevant here again?

If you are going to Acknowledge the fact that Sidious Initial swing had Mace off Guard

Except nothing suggests it was Mace being caught off guard. Mace and his allies just didn't have reflexes fast enough to react. And no, it wasn't a mere swing. Sidious leapt the room and thrust his blade into all of Mace's allies all of whom Mace failed to defend.

Vader force pushing Ahsoka under normal circumstance was a pretty much instant win, eliminate the distraction from the Holocron then Ahsoka is dead 6 ways till sunday.

No one's denying Vader was beating her but nothing indicates it was an instant win. The fight lasted for at least a minute, it's far from instant.

@mygod101:

Sure...But That sure didn't help him when he was on the ground begging for his life after his duel with Mace Windu, Unless...he is a master of all 7 forms as well.

Im not so sure that he was not on the ground due to anything but his own accord. Depending on where one falls on this - it could for the sake of eternal argument be considered as a ruse until the chosen one arrived.

Sure...It only took Sidious Hindering Vader to a Suit made to make Vader weaker, and unable to lift his light saber above his head for it to be even possible for Sidious to take Vader on. even then, Sidious is going to have the biggest Struggle of his life if he takes it to Light Saber dueling against Vader.

Sidious hindered Vader because he could, and why wouldnt he? When the name of the game is accruing power in hopes of being the galaxies single most powerful person and enforcing the Sith rule of one wouldnt you? Anakin Skywalker was damaged, and finding a replacement would not only be long, but the training would be tedious. Suit Darth Vader was infact the perfect dog, and the suit was the perfect muzzle. The idea was to make the guy know his (Vader) limitations & enforce your commands blindly. I would say objective achieved. I would also say he didnt 'need' too just that the perfect opportunity arose & Palpatine pounced like he ALWAYS does.

That is why Palpatine died, he was to overconfident in his abilities. For all that power he had, once Vader Got him, there was nothing Palpatine could do.

Palpatine died because of PIS, and redemption arc. If you dont go that route, you can say it was the robotic hands clamping down on him making it difficult to break free. In reality it was Palpatine's power that DID kill Vader, he just couldn't save himself.. Ironic.. isn't it...

I know none of this will change your mind, and im not even trying to cause argument. Only I believe your case to be incorrect, and that Vader was never a true match for Palpatine.

@mygod101 said:

Vader didn't beat Sidious, that was a cheapshot, taking advantage of the fact that Sidious was focused on Luke. Sidious is clearly more powerful than Vader, though the latter is arguably a little bit more skilled with a lightsaber.

-Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018)

They failed to react because they underestimated him and he had prep ("...none of them expected to face the power of the Sith Lord. His innocent appearance, along with an application of a concentrated dark side confusion haze, enabled Darth Sidious to take down Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto and Saesee Tinn").

Mace won the lightsaber duel, but you're right that not a single quote has Palps losing the fight because "it was Anakin Skywalker who severed Mace Windu's arm, allowing Darth Sidious to win the fight".

The fact the Jedi underestimated him is further supported by Star Wars Insider #187:

God this place has gone to shit

Stalemate.

Based on?

I used to love Star Wars threads, but they're just too aggressive now.

On topic, I'd lean towards Vader, his canon comics give him some ridiculous feats.

@rgr:

They failed to react because they underestimated him and he had prep ("his innocent appearance, along with an application of a concentrated dark side confusion haze, enabled Darth Sidious to take down Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto and Saesee Tinn").

They actually went with this? What the hell is "dark side confusion haze" supposed to be? Sounds like some cheesy anime attack.

And it doesn't say whether Sidious utilized it right when the fight began or before they even entered. But I'll concede this point.

Mace won the lightsaber duel, but you're right that not a single quote has Palps losing the fight because "it was Anakin Skywalker who severed Mace Windu's arm, allowing Darth Sidious to win the fight".

Which directly goes against the novelization stating Mace was incapacitated and being overpowered by Sidious who wasn't even going all-out which is consistent with him failing to incapacitate Maul whereas Sidious was able to do so.

And this doesn't address my point in which Sidious has Mace at point blank yet for some reason decides not to run him through.

Lol, agreed.

True, it's somewhat vague.

Just to be clear, I believe Mace would have tired sooner than Sidious in that final struggle, and the latter feigned weakness in order to lure Anakin to help him. But I think Mace legitimately won the lightsaber duel. The novelization is non-canon, though.

Yeah, I admit that I don't know what to make of it. Not sure Mace was helpless though, or whether it was just bad choreography, but it definitely looked odd. Perhaps you're right that Sids was stalling.

EDIT: For what it's worth, here's Matt Martin on Mace v Sidious:

@rgr:

Just to be clear, I believe Mace would have tired sooner than Sidious in that final struggle, and the latter feigned weakness in order to lure Anakin to help him. But I think Mace legitimately won the lightsaber duel. The novelization is non-canon, though.

I'm taking about the Junior novelization which was re-released under Disney.

@dawn_of_ages: Oh, okay. I take it this wasn't re-released under the Legends banner?