I'm quite curious if this is the common consensus throughout the community if so should feats be compared. I'm no so familiar with PIS in One Piece or maybe my love for the series had blinded me from it, but this comment just doesn't feel right honestly.
Maybe it's just my internal lowballing for Zoro but can he do it? I always thought they were pretty even with Zoro slightly superior.
While Zoro being stronger than Sanji is a fact, not an opinion-one that Oda has beat everyone over the head with-solo-ing the Germa 66 wouldn't happen in-universe unless it's 1 v 1 in which he'd mid diff all encounters. Vs the whole team and that's not within his capabilities, they're comparable enough in tiers to make it impossible.
A) zoro being stronger than sanji is a "alternative" fact
B) on topic; in a 1 v 1 fight, he clears all except probably judge. Iirc, judge went toe to toe with snack to help the straw hats escape making him younko commander tier. N9t sure zoro quite there yet. Not to mention his tech offers him opportunity to catch zoro off guard if applied intelligently.
A) zoro being stronger than sanji is a "alternative" fact
B) on topic; in a 1 v 1 fight, he clears all except probably judge. Iirc, judge went toe to toe with snack to help the straw hats escape making him younko commander tier. N9t sure zoro quite there yet. Not to mention his tech offers him opportunity to catch zoro off guard if applied intelligently.
No, it's just a normal fact, fan delusion notwithstanding. Something Oda made clear Pre-TS when the Straw Hats faced Baroque Works and had Luffy beat Mr 0, Zoro beat Mr 1 and Sanji beat Mr 2. Then just to make sure subtle author intent didn't fly over the heads of his readers, he introduced Douriki which measures strength and durability and made a twenty point difference in favour of the opponent Zoro beat compared to Sanji's paired agent.
Fast forward to now where Zoro has better training and better feats and any argument of them being equal is cute.
Addressed pre timeskip extensively in post #59. Still haven't gotten a response. The notion of zoro having better feats/training Post time skip is also easily debunkable.
@kroczilla: To get into an depth addressing with someone who admitted an open bias towards Sanji would be a waste of my time and no it isn’t ‘easily’ debunkable lest you think Ivankov is a better teacher than Mihawk for...some reason.
Zoro butchering Pica is better than anything Sanji has done which is a fact that can’t be ‘debunked’ as Sanji has done nothing to equal that.
@socajunkie: I believe the first step to issuing an objective analysis is to first admit the presence of bias. That's why I stated expressly that I prefer sanji (though the M3 each make it to my top 10 list of favourite OP xter with ease). Everyone has a bias. At least I'm not afraid to admit mine.
If you could bring up actual facts to debunk my pretimeskip analysis, then go ahead but plz don't hide behind such a lame excuse.
What exactly proves that mihawk is a "better teacher". FYI, being "stronger" doesn't equate to being a better teacher. Not to mention, mihawk never trained zoro directly. He had zoro fight some primates that were far inferior copycats of his moves.
I'm gonna post a post timeskip analysis when I get a proper response to my pre timeskip analysis as promised on the other thread.
@kroczilla: No...he trained him directly as shown in Zoro’s flashback, lest you believe he figured out how to use CoA all by himself.
The sheer quality of the person doing the teaching surpassing speculation about strength =\= teaching, you would have to prove Ivankov offers as much as Hawk-Eyes, not the other way round and there’s nothing to debunk about Pica’s dissection being superior to anything Sanji did.
@socajunkie: informing someone about the existence of a concept =/= training.
He basically did the equivalent of Rayleigh telling luffy about the existence of haki.
Haki has been shown to be something that can be awakened with knowledge and subsequently improved upon by constant combat (I. E. Zoro fighting the copycat primates). It's never been shown the require training in the formal sense. Heck even luffy's training involved fighting beasts that he couldn't ordinarily beat over and over until he won and became boss of the island.
Sanji's training involved constantly being on the run from an island full of okamas while trying the defeat the 99 Okama kenpo masters (each of whom would stomp him pretimeskip) and steal their recipes. Note that unlike zoro, based on his training, sanji never got a chance to rest or let his guard down for two whole years.
As for zoro slicing up pica, pretty sure matching judge and (together with g3 luffy) stalemating an emperor's attack >>
‘informing someone about the existence of a concept =/= training.
He basically did the equivalent of Rayleigh telling luffy about the existence of haki.’
Your bias must be strong if you believe all Mihawk did was tell Zoro about Haki and zero teaching was involved, in fact it’s such a stupid notion I’ll do you the favour of assuming you didn’t mean this.
‘Haki has been shown to be something that can be awakened with knowledge and subsequently improved upon by constant combat (I. E. Zoro fighting the copycat primates). It's never been shown the require training in the formal sense. Heck even luffy's training involved fighting beasts that he couldn't ordinarily beat over and over until he won and became boss of the island.’
Ignoring that Luffy outright said Rayleigh taught him the basics of Haki.
‘Sanji's training involved constantly being on the run from an island full of okamas while trying the defeat the 99 Okama kenpo masters (each of whom would stomp him pretimeskip) and steal their recipes. Note that unlike zoro, based on his training, sanji never got a chance to rest or let his guard down for two whole years.’
This in no way equals getting trained by a top tier.
‘As for zoro slicing up pica, pretty sure matching judge’
Judge has no raw power showings on level shown to dissect Pica.
‘and (together with g3 luffy) stalemating an emperor's attack
...he wasn’t equal to G3 as has been explained in the Sanji vs Zoro’s enemies thread and G3 by feats doesn’t equal Daisen Sekai nor would I put stock into Big Mom putting in an uquantified amount of effort into a casual attack, which in itself is a limp case considering the fact that Sanji’s kicks are weaker than G2 Luffy’s punches.
@socajunkie: did mihawk "teach" zoro about haki? Yes. What we know however is that mihawk had zoro fighting copycats and as far as we are aware, never fought zoro himself.
Hence your going on about mihawk being stronger than Ivankov is irrelevant given that haki get stronger based on life and death struggles between opponents. Mihawk could teach zoro all he knew (similar to how Rayleigh taught luffy everything he knew) but as has been stated, teachings only give a basic foundation at best. Hence the strength of their masters means Jack. Doesn't help that sanji had by far the more intense training.
Oh yes, Rayleigh "taught" luffy haki I. E. Gave him knowledge (which I pointed out) and then had him fight monsters that were ordinarily far beyond his level to the point of luffy developing g4.
Getting "trained" only gets you so far. Especially given that all they can give you are the basics regardless of how "top tier" they are.
As for the rest;
1) judge was able to hold off snack, a younko commander. Except by some twisted logic, you actually believe pica wouldn't get butchered by any of the youkou commanders... You get the idea.
2) actually there was zero explanation as to why sanji didn't = g3. Zilch.
G3 luffy destroyed pica's face completely. Last I check, shattering an object to pieces >> slicing it.
Not only is big mom so far above pica 's tier [like light years above him], it wasn't a casual attack. She was amphing her strikes with Zeus lightining.
Lol so now sanji is even below g2 luffy?
????
Now why don't you address my pretimeskip analysis and stop hiding behind lame excuses. Scans don't lie. If you have scans to disprove what I posted, then by all means...
@kroczilla: Sanji is below G2 Luffy right now. He was barely able to knockout a Luffy that was not fighting back. His feats don't stack up with the rest of the top tier Straw Hats like Jinbei and Zoro. G2 Luffy could arguably be one shot by a full power attack from Jinbei. He wouldn't have to use anywhere near as much effort as Sanji. After this current Arc that's supposed to change though.
While Zoro being stronger than Sanji is a fact, not an opinion-one that Oda has beat everyone over the head with-solo-ing the Germa 66 wouldn't happen in-universe unless it's 1 v 1 in which he'd mid diff all encounters. Vs the whole team and that's not within his capabilities, they're comparable enough in tiers to make it impossible.
@mee09: y'all need to be more original with your arguments.
First off, the only time luffy's durability ever gets enhanced is in g4. There's zero difference in durability btwn base and g2/3 luffy as both form serve to improve luffy's attack power.
Second, the same "base luffy" took hits from doffy and literally got beaten for hours by katakuri. If anything the fact that sanji knocked him out in only a few hits while holding back is actually a great feat for sanji especially since he uses blunt force attacks.
Jinbei can one-shot g2 luffy ???
Not sure you read one piece TBH.
I mean, I can understand the zoro want, but jinbei? Really?
@kroczilla: I mostly agree with you but Sanji knocking Luffy out was after the fact that Luffy defeated Cracker and fought an army right? Surely that played a factor into his well-being going into his confrontation with Sanji. I don’t think Zoro could defeat Germa 4/5 v 1 but could in 1v1
@back_stabbath95: oh for sure luffy was weakened from fighting cracker [though he did replenish his energy somewhat by eating crackers'biscuit soldiers]
The point I was trying to make is that "base luffy" is ridiculously resilient.
Iirc, even pretimeskip during the marineford arc, he took a serious kick from kizaru and even with that [on top of his previously accumulated damages] he only needed an adrenaline shot to be up and running again.
@kroczilla: I agree, I don't see why Sanji vs Luffy fight should be disregarded knowing this was all post-doffy event, luffy must have gotten immensely stronger after those events. Busting Luffy face isn't an easy task which left a scar onward throughout the Cake island arc. Sanji also held his on for a bit of a time against Doffy for a moment noticed and didn't get one shotted. Idk if the Pica feat had turned all of the community biased or what, but for me it always felt like they were on the same level just a tad higher for Zoro, but that's just it. I see nothing that really suggest Zoro is a one shotter in this fight, fodder-sweeper definitely, but I can't see him fodderizing the whole germa 66 on his own, unless I am proven otherwise ?♀️ which would mean he's at the level of Katakuri or even higher.
‘did mihawk "teach" zoro about haki? Yes. What we know however is that mihawk had zoro fighting copycats and as far as we are aware, never fought zoro himself.’
While injured, Zoro already defeated the Humandrills and after his wounds were healed by Perona he fought the leader, however disregarding the conjecture of saying Mihawk never fought Zoro directly- since you don’t know that- getting tutalege from a top tier is better training.
‘Hence your going on about mihawk being stronger than Ivankov is irrelevant given that haki get stronger based on life and death struggles between opponents. Mihawk could teach zoro all he knew (similar to how Rayleigh taught luffy everything he knew) but as has been stated, teachings only give a basic foundation at best. Hence the strength of their masters means Jack. Doesn't help that sanji had by far the more intense training.’
More intense training based on what? I also like how you’ve dismissed Zoro fighting copy cats meaning he had to rely on his skill and adaptability.
‘Oh yes, Rayleigh "taught" luffy haki I. E. Gave him knowledge (which I pointed out) and then had him fight monsters that were ordinarily far beyond his level to the point of luffy developing g4.’
And this relates to Sanji how? Luffy also received a higher quality of training.
‘Getting "trained" only gets you so far. Especially given that all they can give you are the basics regardless of how "top tier" they are.’
The basics were all that were possible to learn given Luffy only trained for a year and six months then spent six months by himself.
As for the rest;
‘1) judge was able to hold off snack, a younko commander. Except by some twisted logic, you actually believe pica wouldn't get butchered by any of the youkou commanders... You get the idea.’
You’re under the weird assumption that in order to be superior to a character you have to be above them in every singe stat which isn’t the case, Sanji is above Elizabello overall and would beat him but is far inferior in raw power. Furthermore Snack’s fights are off-panel and we know nothing about him.
Smoothie has no feats to suggest she could butcher Pica and she’s a Commander too.
‘actually there was zero explanation as to why sanji didn't = g3. Zilch.’
...so you can’t read because myself and Deathhero explained why.
‘G3 luffy destroyed pica's face completely. Last I check, shattering an object to pieces >> slicing it.’
Just to confirm; you’re stating that destroying Pica’s relatively small face with a direct attack is better than using the medium of air to butcher the golem’s main body with the kinetic force to launch the pieces metres apart? Get some help.
‘Not only is big mom so far above pica 's tier [like light years above him], it wasn't a casual attack. She was amphing her strikes with Zeus lightning’
I don’t know where you’re going with this since it’s a fact that G3 Luffy doesn’t put out force near DS so Big Mom couldn’t have been either in that instance as their attacks cancelled out.
‘Lol so now sanji is even below g2 luffy?’
Yes, considering that Doffy only used his jacket to block Sanji’s Spectre but needed to use CoA on his coat to block Luffy’s Jet Gatling. Now I’ll wait for your mental gymnastics to work its way around this.
‘Now why don't you address my pretimeskip analysis and stop hiding behind lame excuses. Scans don't lie. If you have scans to disprove what I posted, then by all means...’
I’ve got better things to do with my time, least of all with someone as bias as you.
The Sanji is weaker than G2 Luffy argument doesn't work because both Doffy and Luffy were using CoA in that instance, while neither were in Sanji's time. So it cancels out.
I mean Doffy post gamma knife took an CoA enhanced Eagle Bazooka to the gut without CoA hardening, and called it "light". In contrast, a fresh Doffy actually had to block Sanji's attacks and commented on his strength. Saying G2 Luffy is stronger than Sanji is stupid tbh.
For the Big Mom instance, not only does it depend on the faulty premise that Sanji is somehow weaker than G2, it doesn't explain how an Elephant Gun stalemated a semi serious attack from Big Mom, when even Katakuri can easily overpower G3. As shown time and again, Yonko >>>>>>>>> their Commanders, so saying Sanji's contribution was significantly less than G3 in stalemating Mama's attack runs straight into a blatant contradiction.
I personally feel,
In Damage Output: Sanji<=G3<=Zoro
In Speed: Zoro < G2 Luffy < Sanji
So a fight between post skip Zoro and Sanji goes either way, as it has always been.
Ot, as others have said, Zoro beats any of them 1v1 but loses to them as a team.
1) again, you're missing the point. Mihawk taught zoro haki (Iirc, he bared zoro from taking alcohol till he mastered coa Haki). That's literally just the basics. Zoro would then have to build on that via battles. That's literally how haki works. Hence it wouldn't matter if zoro was trained by Gol.d roger himself. If he didn't get a life/death or all out battle against another top tier, it would mean Jack.
2) more intense in that sanji unlike zoro never got any chance to rest or let his guard down. He was contending against an entire island whom per Ivankov were instructed to hunt him night and day till he finished his training. The fact that mihawk had to expressly forbid zoro from drinking shows that zoro clearly had some free time inbetween training.
3) luffy received highest quality of training not because Rayleigh was his trainer but rather the environment where he trained made said life and death battles against much superior opponents (per luffy's own words, he developed g4 to fight monsters who couldn't be defeated with g2/3 no matter what). Essentially, luffy has been fighting arguably doflamingo tier opponents even before he reach the new world.
4) finally, some logic. You're right. Having superiority in one stats doesn't equate to outright victory [which is exactly why sanji would beat zoro, but more on that later]. However, pica is a unique case. He can't be beaten without first getting to his real body hence it can be reasonable assumed that anyone depicted as being above or on par with pica or doffy (who would equally dice pica only much faster) would be reasonable capable of a similar feat or effect. In this case, the younko commanders have generally been depicted as being at or above doffy's level.
While snack's fight was off panel, given that every other fighter was occupied or escaping and that we eventually learn that the germa escaped, the sole reasonable conclusion is that judge held off snack.
5) if there was an explanation as to why sanji didn't match g3, I must have missed it. It would be nice of you could repost it.
As for the zoro vs g3 luffy feats, they are both city level feats. Not to mention, sanji already tanked an attack from doffy's strings which even zoro couldn't cut.
6) it wasn't shown clearly whether doffy was hardening his jacket though. Not to mention as the user above pointed out, doffy after getting his organs wrecked took a g2 bazooka and called it light whereas against sanji he called the attacks strong and was clearly impressed.
7) >says he has better things to do
>still posting on this thread.
Bruh, it's all right to lose some. I mean, even if you don't what to post scans of your own, you could at least point out the errors in mine.
Anyways, I accept the concession. Should have known I was kidding myself expecting a legit point from someone who can't even admit his bias
1) again, you're missing the point. Mihawk taught zoro haki (Iirc, he bared zoro from taking alcohol till he mastered coa Haki). That's literally just the basics. Zoro would then have to build on that via battles. That's literally how haki works. Hence it wouldn't matter if zoro was trained by Gol.d roger himself. If he didn't get a life/death or all out battle against another top tier, it would mean Jack.
He received those life and death scenarios from sparring with the Humandrills and any type of instruction under the watchful eye of a Yonkou tier character on top of that would still make it superior.
2) more intense in that sanji unlike zoro never got any chance to rest or let his guard down.
Lmao, based on what? You think Sanji was literally running 24/7 for two years?
He was contending against an entire island whom per Ivankov were instructed to hunt him night and day till he finished his training.
And the quality of opponents you've conveniently omitted since Zoro's training was more skill + stat based as he was fighting enemies who could mimic his style.
The fact that mihawk had to expressly forbid zoro from drinking shows that zoro clearly had some free time inbetween training.
The results of their training put an end to this given that Zoro has been more impressive in the New World.
3) luffy received highest quality of training not because Rayleigh was his trainer but rather the environment where he trained made said life and death battles against much superior opponents (per luffy's own words, he developed g4 to fight monsters who couldn't be defeated with g2/3 no matter what). Essentially, luffy has been fighting arguably doflamingo tier opponents even before he reach the new world.
The quality of the teacher is also an important factor, Haki flourishes in tough situations yes however to completely dismiss who the instructor was makes no sense.
4) finally, some logic.
This would be cute if it wasn't so insulting.
You're right. Having superiority in one stats doesn't equate to outright victory [which is exactly why sanji would beat zoro, but more on that later].
Zoro has an outright majority over Sanji in stats and skill and any attempt to deny this would be met with laughter.
However, pica is a unique case. He can't be beaten without first getting to his real body hence it can be reasonable assumed that anyone depicted as being above or on par with pica or doffy (who would equally dice pica only much faster) would be reasonable capable of a similar feat or effect. In this case, the younko commanders have generally been depicted as being at or above doffy's level.
...Not all of them match up with eachother in every stat and they specialize in different areas with some having glaring weaknesses like Cracker's low pain tolerance.
While snack's fight was off panel, given that every other fighter was occupied or escaping and that we eventually learn that the germa escaped, the sole reasonable conclusion is that judge held off snack.
We don't know details so I'd stray away from this, the implication is there but you can't base an entire case around an off-panel fight.
5) if there was an explanation as to why sanji didn't match g3, I must have missed it. It would be nice of you could repost it.
No, I have no time for people who are either too dense to comprehend an argument or just flat out can't read. I genuinely don't know if this is to just test my patience or if you need glasses.
As for the zoro vs g3 luffy feats, they are both city level feats.
Utter nonsense, you know that Zoro's feat is far better since he affected a much larger section without touching the stone directly. Sad attempt to lowball Zoro by putting Luffys smashing Pica's head on the same level as Daisen Sekai.
Not to mention, sanji already tanked an attack from doffy's strings which even zoro couldn't cut.
Neither could Fujitora, what's your point? And given Zoro's far and away superior pain tolerance, he'd have taken those strings better.
6) it wasn't shown clearly whether doffy was hardening his jacket though.
Wat. Don't be silly, Oda draws black if he's showing coated CoA, he didn't draw Doffy's jacket black so he wasn't using it and that's the end of that.
Not to mention as the user above pointed out, doffy after getting his organs wrecked took a g2 bazooka and called it light whereas against sanji he called the attacks strong and was clearly impressed.
Ignoring that in the very same scan, Doffy notes that Luffy is tired, therefore nowhere near 100%.
7) >says he has better things to do
>still posting on this thread.
This isn't me invested.
Bruh, it's all right to lose some. I mean, even if you don't what to post scans of your own, you could at least point out the errors in mine.
Why? You're so low on totem pole I don't see why I should bother.
Anyways, I accept the concession. Should have known I was kidding myself expecting a legit point from someone who can't even admit his bias
There are exactly six users whom I'd take seriously in a One Piece discussion and you're not one of them, this is only being done to entertain myself.
The Sanji is weaker than G2 Luffy argument doesn't work because both Doffy and Luffy were using CoA in that instance, while neither were in Sanji's time. So it cancels out.
No he wasn't.
Where's Luffy's CoA? His arms aren't coloured black and no do not say 'He's using un-coated Haki' as that's nothing but conjecture.
And based on absolutely nothing is Sanji faster than G2 Luffy given that Luffy has more quantifiable feats.
@socajunkie: 1) there's no indication that he was in any actual life/death scenario even close to luffy's. And as pointed out, instructions only go so far.
2) based on Ivankov's instructions, yes. He literally started walking in the air just from running (a technique that ordinarily requires actual training to master). If you have any actual fact otherwise to offer though, I'm all ears.
Zoro was contending with enemies that could copy his style but where ultimately far weaker than him. He literally dropped an army of them while severely injured. Copying move sets can only get you so far.
Zoro has been more impressive based on what exactly. Beating fodder like pica? ?
3) the burden is on you to prove that the quality of the teacher is a significant factor when freaking Rayleigh himself stated that luffy needs tough battles to make his haki bloom. If quality of teachers mattered, then Robin would easily be top tier in the crew as she trained under Dragon.
4) Speed (consistently blitzing super nova tier opponents, casually dodging katakuri), Mobility (is this really an argument), Durability (tanking an attack from doffy) , COO haki (see mobility) , Intelligence (see mobility) etc. Literally the only possible argument for zoro in terms of stats is attacking power. Go ahead, construct an actual argument. I won't hold my breath though. Skill isnt the best point to bring up given that they specialize in completely different fighting styles. But given that sanji combines his m3 status with being a world class chef... You get the idea.
As for the cracker's argument, given that pica wouldnt put a scratch on his regular biscuit soldiers, the "weakness" is moot.
It's quite clear that judge held off snack. Heck with the recent chapter in which big mom arrived with only the healthy members of her crew to invade wano, it would seem that snack got hurt.
5) why you mad though? If you indeed have a legit argument, then what's your problem with reposting it?
Bruh, they are both city level feats. Not to mention luffy doesn't use air pressure attacks.
Oh, it seems I'm debating with someone who relies on YouTube videos as opposed to actually reading the manga. The sole reason Fujitora didn't end the entire dressrosa debacle was because as he explained (to sabo), he was placing his bets on luffy. He only aided in slowing birdcage down as if he had solved everything, the world government could have covered up the flaws of the warlord system (similar to what they did in Alabasta arc) given that he's pretty much expressed an intent to end the system.
Also, assuming zoro had the higher pain tolerance, pain tolerance =/= durability. This is basic stuff bruh.
6) bruh, the scans had doffy backing the image. There's no clear indication. Not to mention, except his jacket >>> his durability, it wouldn't make sense to block with it without haki.
Luffy was tired but we've seen luffy deliver his strongest output even when exhausted. Not to mention, doffy was quite literally holding his organs together on top of taking countershock in a weakened state. If anything, doffy was in a much worse state.
7) well TBH, I never really bothered about what your opinion is. Though it is annoying debating people who get their source material from YouTube clips.
Though TBH, I'm a tad dissapointed. For some odd reason, I actually had some hope for you. Oh well, concession accepted.
@socajunkie: 1) there's no indication that he was in any actual life/death scenario even close to luffy's.
We're not talking about vs Luffy, we're talking in comparison to Sanji.
And as pointed out, instructions only go so far.
That they do, however you're implying Mihawk sat on his backside for two years.
2) based on Ivankov's instructions, yes. He literally started walking in the air just from running (a technique that ordinarily requires actual training to master). If you have any actual fact otherwise to offer though, I'm all ears.
Oh I see, now Sanji has the greatest stamina in all of One Piece, even leaving Admirals in the dust, what is 10 days compared to two years? This is so sad.
Zoro was contending with enemies that could copy his style but where ultimately far weaker than him. He literally dropped an army of them while severely injured. Copying move sets can only get you so far.
And he also faced a Humandrill who copied Mihawk's style, he had to rely on his skill as well as stats.
Zoro has been more impressive based on what exactly. Beating fodder like pica? ?
At this point your bias is showing in a similar fashion to Shirso's in our CaV, a sad attempt to low ball Zoro indirectly by lowballing Pica. In what way is Pica fodder? Do you understand relativity? He was a joke relative to Zoro, not a joke in general, it's impressive that Zoro butchered a small mountain for reasons self-explanatory and Sanji could not have beaten his true form because he no feats feats of being effective against hardened CoA.
3) the burden is on you to prove that the quality of the teacher is a significant factor when freaking Rayleigh himself stated that luffy needs tough battles to make his haki bloom. If quality of teachers mattered, then Robin would easily be top tier in the crew as she trained under Dragon.
No she didn't, she sat on her ass for two years absorbing knowledge, she didn't do any actual proper training as if she did, she'd know Haki.
Oh god here we go.
4) Speed (consistently blitzing super nova tier opponents,
What?
casually dodging katakuri),
His jelly bean. He dodged his jelly bean. One thrown at speeds comparable to a bullet.
Mobility (is this really an argument),
It's a shit argument given that Sanji is primarily a close range fighter so being able to fly means little when he'll be cqc against Zoro.
Durability (tanking an attack from doffy)
A feat Zoro can replicate given his superior pain tolerance.
, COO haki (see mobility)
This makes no significant dent in Zoro's majority.
, Intelligence (see mobility)
This makes no significant dent in Zoro's majority.
etc. Literally the only possible argument for zoro in terms of stats is attacking power. Go ahead, construct an actual argument. I won't hold my breath though.
I already have, boringly enough against Shirso in our CaV and despite being a far better debater than you, he brought the same vacuous arguments.
Why you think I'd repeat myself here is strange to put it mildly.
Skill isnt the best point to bring up given that they specialize in completely different fighting styles.
...Where skill can still be compared and Zoro has an obvious edge given his more extensive repertoire and skill feats.
But given that sanji combines his m3 status with being a world class chef... You get the idea.
No, I don't get the idea, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
As for the cracker's argument, given that pica wouldnt put a scratch on his regular biscuit soldiers, the "weakness" is moot.
Missing the point entirely.
It's quite clear that judge held off snack. Heck with the recent chapter in which big mom arrived with only the healthy members of her crew to invade wano, it would seem that snack got hurt.
Please stop basing an argument around an off-panel fight.
5) why you mad though? If you indeed have a legit argument, then what's your problem with reposting it?
Repeating myself for people who lack the ability to read is a waste of time, that's why, the hell would I re-post it if it's already there?
Bruh, they are both city level feats.
Crushing Pica's relatively small head isn't equal to butchering his main body with the medium of air but the fact that I have to actually explain that to you is concerning given that's obvious. Trying to low ball Zoro by putting the two showings on the same level is pathetic.
Not to mention luffy doesn't use air pressure attacks.
...which again makes Zoro's feat better because he didn't directly touch the stone.
Oh, it seems I'm debating with someone who relies on YouTube videos as opposed to actually reading the manga.
So cute.
The sole reason Fujitora didn't end the entire dressrosa debacle was because as he explained (to sabo), he was placing his bets on luffy. He only aided in slowing birdcage down as if he had solved everything, the world government could have covered up the flaws of the warlord system (similar to what they did in Alabasta arc) given that he's pretty much expressed an intent to end the system.
Yeah anyway, point being he too failed to cut the bird cage.
Also, assuming zoro had the higher pain tolerance, pain tolerance =/= durability. This is basic stuff bruh.
I'm not assuming anything, the Thriller Bark feats shows he has better pain tolerance and durability given that Sanji got knocked out with a small poke to the side.
6) bruh, the scans had doffy backing the image. There's no clear indication. Not to mention, except his jacket >>> his durability, it wouldn't make sense to block with it without haki.
Stupid argument given the burden of proof falls to you so he wasn't using Haki unless proven otherwise. Doubly stupid given that Doffy's coat and glasses clearly aren't meant to be taken seriously in regards to their toughness seeing as G4 Luffy ragdolling Doffy didn't destroy his jacket or glasses, the force of Spectre is goes into Doffy's arm.
Luffy was tired but we've seen luffy deliver his strongest output even when exhausted. Not to mention, doffy was quite literally holding his organs together on top of taking countershock in a weakened state. If anything, doffy was in a much worse state.
They were both in bad states and Doffy was obviously worse off, however Luffy being tired makes the whole Sanji argument weaker.
7) well TBH, I never really bothered about what your opinion is. Though it is annoying debating people who get their source material from YouTube clips.
I...really don't know what you're referring to regarding YouTube clips other than me posting Zoro vs Billy which is fine and put in place to show Zoro's roots as a bounty hunter.
Though TBH, I'm a tad dissapointed. For some odd reason, I actually had some hope for you. Oh well, concession accepted.
I'm regarded as one of if not the best One Piece debater on this site, so the random opinion of a nobody bottom tier like you will amuse me before anything.
In my opinion, Yes. He is trained by Mihawk as a swordsman and in use of haki. A serious Zoro could break their formation with haki enhanced AoE attacks. Unlike Sanji, Zoro won't hesitate to cut them down.
1) we are talking about the subject of whether training from a top tier (as opposed to actual battles against stronger opponents) contributes to haki growth and development. Luffy is relevant to this discussion.
Mihawk literally sits on his ass until something extremely important comes up. That's his character. Heck they were even surprise he showed up for marineford much less actually attacking.
Like I said, a few YouTube clip will only get you so far.
2) I'm going exactly by what the author himself stated. If you've got something to disprove it then by all means. There is no doubt that at the very least sanji had to be on alert for 2 years. Also if you think a life/death battle between rivals is even comparable to just running around, then you really are a crap debater.
All the humandrills copied mihawk's style including the ones zoro fodderized. Also copying a skill doesn't even come close to being as strong as its user.
3) I'll make myself clear, zoro beating pica isn't impressive particularly in the context of the verse where pica would at best make mid tier. Not to mention you do realize the fact that sanji can currently one-shot pacisfista would put him at sane level with said feat of cutting pica. In case you've forgotten, pretimeskip Franky survived an explosion that wreck a huge chunk of the mountain (where vegapunk's lab was hidden) and he was far below the pacifista particularly in durability.
So Robin sat on her ass? Absorbing knowledge? She is literally the most knowledgeable person in the verse. What knowledge would she want to absorb (that would take her 2 years no less). Not to mention her power has obviously vastly improved so clearly there was significant training involved.
4) a) Speed: blitzed Capone and oven
b) Now you're just making stuff up. Katakuri's jellybean is obviously vastly faster than a bullet. Not to mention there is zero reason why it wouldn't be comparable in speed to his other attacks. Go ahead and actually prove otherwise.
c) Mobility is important as not only would it allow sanji more options in avoiding zoro's attack but also in case you've forgotten, current sanji has range attacks now (spectre shot) strong enough to put doffy on the defensive and highly spammable for both legs.
d) durability=/= pain tolerance. It's quite literally in the name. *sigh* if this is really the best this forum can offer in terms of a one piece debater, then this is just sad.
e) given the impact superior COO haki has shown to have in battles, I would say it makes a huge impact particularly against an opponent who is faster and has much higher mobility. But sure, you're intelligent analysis of "nuh-uhn" certainly put things into perspective ?
f) see above.
g) bruh @shirso was obviously the better debater. But sure, seeing as you delude yourself with illusions of grandeur as the no. 1 OP debater, I can see why you would think otherwise.
h) bruh, if we are gonna go by no. of movesets, trust me, you'll lose. Now as for ACTUAL SKILL (as opposed to how many attacks an author could think up), sanji could literally rearrange the bone structure of a human face with his kick without leaving any injuring and basically performing what amounts to plastic surgery. WITH KICKS. Feats for zoro?
The idea is sanji combines all that fighting strength with cooking skills. All zoro does all day is train, eat and sleep and he still hasn't surpassed sanji ??
No, I didn't at all miss the point. Cracker would eat pica for breakfast. Case closed.
An off panel feat is still a feat particularly since Oda seems to favour off panel fights nowadays.
5) well I would much rather no start going through old post to find what I assume would flawed logic at best. But sure, give me a link to the thread and I'll be sure to check it out.
Bruh, they are both city level feats. No need to get upset. Also refer to my post on pacifistas.
Fujitora didn't fail to cut bird cage because he never tried to in the first place. He held it back to give luffy time to win. Also good job trying the distract from the fact that sanji tanked an attack with arguably superior cutting power to zoro.
Pain tolerance; the maximum level of pain that a person is able to tolerate.
Durability; the ability to withstand damage.
If you can't see the difference, then I don't know what to tell you.
6) it seems you don't know how burden of proof works. You made the claim that doffy didn't use haki which is quite literally impossible to tell from the panel given. Hence you have to prove it.
Not to mention, theres a huge difference between not wanting your xter to lose articles of clothing in combat (e. g. How hulk doesn't ever lose his pants, luffy not losing his cloths in his fight against Ussop etc. ) and actually using said article of clothing to actively defend attacks. Like seriously, this is the best we have to offer?
Bruh, luffy has consistently shown he can deliver some of his strongest attack output while exhausted. Not to mention, exhaustion doesn't even begin to come close to literally being fried and them shocked from the inside out. Yet doffy despite this level of damage basically called it "light".
7) nah. I'm referring to your inability to take character nuance as well as other core facts into account. Basically stuffs which an actual manga reader would know. The fact that you began to give silly excuses once scans are in play only further proves my point.
LMAO. Your "debating skills" (or lack thereof) are barely above nohate tier. It is sad to see such extreme case of self delusion though.
The Sanji is weaker than G2 Luffy argument doesn't work because both Doffy and Luffy were using CoA in that instance, while neither were in Sanji's time. So it cancels out.
I mean Doffy post gamma knife took an CoA enhanced Eagle Bazooka to the gut without CoA hardening, and called it "light". In contrast, a fresh Doffy actually had to block Sanji's attacks and commented on his strength. Saying G2 Luffy is stronger than Sanji is stupid tbh.
For the Big Mom instance, not only does it depend on the faulty premise that Sanji is somehow weaker than G2, it doesn't explain how an Elephant Gun stalemated a semi serious attack from Big Mom, when even Katakuri can easily overpower G3. As shown time and again, Yonko >>>>>>>>> their Commanders, so saying Sanji's contribution was significantly less than G3 in stalemating Mama's attack runs straight into a blatant contradiction.
I personally feel,
In Damage Output: Sanji<=G3<=Zoro
In Speed: Zoro < G2 Luffy < Sanji
So a fight between post skip Zoro and Sanji goes either way, as it has always been.
Ot, as others have said, Zoro beats any of them 1v1 but loses to them as a team.
f Sanji is faster than G2 Luffy and hits as hard as g3 Luffy. Why did Doflamingo have such an easy time tagging and defeating him compared to his fight with Luffy before the gamma knife stab? I am sure that according to you( at least at the time,) Sanji also had superior CoO to Luffy. Care to explain? Doflamingo used spider's web to block Luffy's elephant gun. We know how hard it is to break doffy's strings. Why would this be necessary if he is able to use his coat to block Sanji's "g3 level" specter? I'm not a mathematician but that doesn't add up. In reality Luffy is faster than Sanji and his g3 hits harder than Sanji. Doflamingo's fights with both prove this easily.
What you personally feel is wrong my friend.
Secondly you're placing way too much stake on a clash. You need to know when to dismiss it. Luffy's g3 and Sanji's kick are not actually a match for Big Mom.You even point that out in your own post. That clash was horribly inconsistent with the gap between Big Mom and Luffy/Sanji. Even if we assume Sanji's attack was g3 level. Two simultaneous gear 3 attacks should not be enough to stop Big Mom. It's better to not attempt scale anything based on a clash like that.
Where's Luffy's CoA? His arms aren't coloured black and no do not say 'He's using un-coated Haki' as that's nothing but conjecture.
And based on absolutely nothing is Sanji faster than G2 Luffy given that Luffy has more quantifiable feats.
Several points here:
Luffy's fists are making direct contact while Sanji's was a ranged attack.
Sanji was in a far more damaged condition there compared to Luffy, having taken Caesar's gastnet in Nami's possession and broken a bone against Vergo only hours earlier, then being beaten up by Viola, finally taking Doffy's 5 colored strings in the very previous page.
He was in a very tense situation there, where he had to save the crew from Doffy and charged in blindly without any idea of Doffy's abilities or how strong he is. Luffy had full knowledge of Doffy's abilities and unlike Sanji didn't have the burden of trying to protect someone.
Doffy actually calls Sanji's attacks "strong", he never says that ever for Luffy's G2 hits, not while he was fresh, not even after Gamma knife.
As for the Eagle Bazooka being "light" to Doffy and you arguing that Luffy was tored there as well, well that's true, but surely you wouldn't compare Luffy's exhaustion from running to the plateau, fighting fodders in the colliseum and taking hits from Bellamy to the damage Doffy took on the plateau alone?
I mean taking Luffy's Red Hawk unguarded and Law's Gamma knife alone should be >> damage than any actual damage Luffy took before that.
Wat, Sanji was making direct contact with Doflamingo's jacket as well...
Which didn't affect his performance that much relatively speaking and if he was fresh to suggest Doffy would have needed to use CoA is just speculation
This is such a pathetic non-point with nothing to do with the argument at hand-Sanji had to protect the crew therefore would have been trying his hardest
Another non-point given that Red Hawk made Doffy cough up blood and Sanji's kicks just got a comment, this is rather flimsy
As for the Eagle Bazooka being "light" to Doffy and you arguing that Luffy was tored there as well, well that's true, but surely you wouldn't compare Luffy's exhaustion from running to the plateau, fighting fodders in the colliseum and taking hits from Bellamy to the damage Doffy took on the plateau alone?
No, I'm talking about it in relation to Sanji.
I mean taking Luffy's Red Hawk unguarded and Law's Gamma knife alone should be >> damage than any actual damage Luffy took before that.
f Sanji is faster than G2 Luffy and hits as hard as g3 Luffy. Why did Doflamingo have such an easy time tagging and defeating him compared to his fight with Luffy before the gamma knife stab? I am sure that according to you( at least at the time,) Sanji also had superior CoO to Luffy. Care to explain?
As I replied to Leo also in the previous post, Sanji was far more damaged there compared to Luffy (Caesar's gastnet, breaking a bone against Vergo only hours earlier, Viola beating him up, taking Doffy's 5 colored strings just a page ago), and unlike Luffy, he was under a lot more pressure, having to save the crew and barging in without any idea of Doffy's abilities or power.
Doffy is also faster than G2 Luffy actually, being able to move FTE multiple times against G2 barrages, and reacting to even Boundman's attacks at close range a few times. Sanji having a hard time tagging Doffy is not a low showing for Sanji at all considering that it took Luffy G4 to even stand a chance.
And I didn't say Sanji hits as hard as G3, I only said Sanji's stronger attacks should be on the same tier as G3. The Spectre against Doffy is not one of his strongest attacks, it's more akin to Luffy's Jet Gatling in G2.
And you keep on forgetting that Sanji went in blindly there without any idea about Doffy's abilities and under pressure (he was fighting to protect the crew) unlike Luffy. Charging in blindly against a guy like Doffy is a bad idea unless you are leagues more powerful, as we saw from Diamond Jozu.
Doflamingo used spider's web to block Luffy's elephant gun. We know how hard it is to break doffy's strings. Why would this be necessary if he is able to use his coat to block Sanji's "g3 level" specter? I'm not a mathematician but that doesn't add up. In reality Luffy is faster than Sanji and his g3 hits harder than Sanji. Doflamingo's fights with both prove this easily.
Sanji's Spectre isn't one of his strongest attacks, Spectre is similar to Luffy's Jet Gatling. Keep in mind Doffy actually called his Spectre "strong" while he never said that for any G2 attack.
What you personally feel is wrong my friend.
Secondly you're placing way too much stake on a clash. You need to know when to dismiss it. Luffy's g3 and Sanji's kick are not actually a match for Big Mom.You even point that out in your own post. That clash was horribly inconsistent with the gap between Big Mom and Luffy/Sanji. Even if we assume Sanji's attack was g3 level. Two simultaneous gear 3 attacks should not be enough to stop Big Mom. It's better to not attempt scale anything based on a clash like that.
I don't think it's inconsistent. Mama's attack there was only meant to take out Rejju, someone far weaker than either Luffy or Sanji. The latter two just intercepted the attack and barely stalemated it (iirc Luffy was completely spent in the very next chapter). Mama's attack wasn't meant for characters as strong as Luffy or Sanji, it was meant to kill a character far weaker. That even an attack of that level from Mama needs 2 simultaneous G3 level attacks to barely stalemate is a testament to her strength, not the other way round.
Wat, Sanji was making direct contact with Doflamingo's jacket as well...
Which didn't affect his performance that much relatively speaking and if he was fresh to suggest Doffy would have needed to use CoA is just speculation
This is such a pathetic non-point with nothing to do with the argument at hand-Sanji had to protect the crew therefore would have been trying his hardest
Another non-point given that Red Hawk made Doffy cough up blood and Sanji's kicks just got a comment, this is rather flimsy
Spectre seems a ranged attack to me considering Sanji was almost as far away from Doffy as Luffy when he used Jet Gatling, and Sanji can't extend his legs. Spectre seems a Rankoyku type attack to me, with fire added.
Why wouldn't taking all that heavy damage affect his performance? He took a 5 colored string just a page ago, the same attack which hospitalized a New World VA like Smoker.
I am saying under a time pressure, Sanji would go for his faster attacks, not necessarily the highest damage output ones. Spectre is not his strongest attack, Hell Memories and the kick he used against Big Mom in WCI, or the one he used to deflect Oar's Bazooka are.
Red Hawk is not only much more powerful than Luffy's normal G2 attacks , it hit a completely unguarded Doffy who couldn't even use CoA to defend himself. Doffy actually needed to actively block the Spectre. If Doffy took Spectre completely unguarded to the gut and no sold it, then you'd have a point.
For the record I don't put Spectre on Red Hawk or G3's level. But it is definitely on G2's tier, maybe a little weaker. I already said in terms of damage output,
"As I replied to Leo also in the previous post, Sanji was far more damaged there compared to Luffy (Caesar's gastnet, breaking a bone against Vergo only hours earlier, Viola beating him up, taking Doffy's 5 colored strings just a page ago), and unlike Luffy, he was under a lot more pressure, having to save the crew and barging in without any idea of Doffy's abilities or power."
Let me get this straight. you Think Doflmaingo had an easier time defeating Sanji because of what happened at in Punk Hazard? Okay, where is your evidence? Example When Zoro took on Luffy's fatigue in thriller bark, someone explicitly stated that Zoro had not recovered in Sabaody. If you want to use that as a viable excuse, you'll need more than just headcanon. Any one piece fan can see you are avoiding the very simple answer . G2 Luffy is faster than Sanji. That explains why Luffy could dodge Mingo's attacks while Sanji kept getting tagged. It wasnt becuase viola beat up Sanji that's ridiculous.
"Doffy is also faster than G2 Luffy actually, being able to move FTE multiple times against G2 barrages, and reacting to even Boundman's attacks at close range a few times. Sanji having a hard time tagging Doffy is not a low showing for Sanji at all considering that it took Luffy G4 to even stand a chance."
I'm not talking about Sanji not being able to tag Doflamingo. I am talking about Sanji not being able to dodge Doflmaingo's attacks while Luffy could. That doesn't make sense if Sanji is faster.
"And I didn't say Sanji hits as hard as G3, I only said Sanji's stronger attacks should be on the same tier as G3. The Spectre against Doffy is not one of his strongest attacks, it's more akin to Luffy's Jet Gatling in G2."
Which attack specifically is on G3 level?
And you keep on forgetting that Sanji went in blindly there without any idea about Doffy's abilities and under pressure (he was fighting to protect the crew) unlike Luffy. Charging in blindly against a guy like Doffy is a bad idea unless you are leagues more powerful, as we saw from Diamond Jozu.
I guess being a "CoO specialist" doesn't amount to much these days.
"I don't think it's inconsistent. Mama's attack there was only meant to take out Rejju, someone far weaker than either Luffy or Sanji. The latter two just intercepted the attack and barely stalemated it (iirc Luffy was completely spent in the very next chapter). Mama's attack wasn't meant for characters as strong as Luffy or Sanji, it was meant to kill a character far weaker. That even an attack of that level from Mama needs 2 simultaneous G3 level attacks to barely stalemate is a testament to her strength, not the other way round."
Lets say you are right and Big Mom's attack was severely scaled back for the sole purpose of defeating Rejju. How does the dual attack then imply that Sanji is equal to G3?
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