Can Satoru Gojo beat these broken anime/cartoon characters?

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Agmine_entry

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#1  Edited By Agmine_entry
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Satoru Gojo: The most powerful Jujutsu Sorcerer

*

  • All bloodlusted
  • Win by death or KO or incap or opponent retreating
  • With basic knowledge
  • Standard equipment

This isn't really a gauntlet, more of a list of characters Gojo has to fight 1 vs 1. Which of these characters can the legendary sorcerer prevail against and which of them can he not?

*

1. Lelouch vi Britannia

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2. Light Yagami

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3. Makima

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4. Nanika

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5. Evil Morty

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6. Griffith/Femto

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7. Father

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8. Uncle Grandpa

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InfiniteMass

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He could win 1 or 2 if he's fast enough, he dies to everyone else easily

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dogsrus

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2 solos his verse

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MasterBuster666

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Stops at Morty.

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PrinceX

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The first two are funny, if its in an actual fight Gojo blitzes them and kills them. I don't know how Makima touches him? Also she gets turned to a vegetable which doesn't activate her revive(i think).

Bloodlusted Nanika solos the JJK verse tho. Femto also solos with passive causality and fate hax, Femto probably just opens a portal to hell and drags Gojo there.

Idk about the others.

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Devil_King18

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Never beating uncle grandpa.

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Redsalmon

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@princex said:

The first two are funny, if its in an actual fight Gojo blitzes them and kills them. I don't know how Makima touches him? Also she gets turned to a vegetable which doesn't activate her revive(i think).

Bloodlusted Nanika solos the JJK verse tho. Femto also solos with passive causality and fate hax, Femto probably just opens a portal to hell and drags Gojo there.

Idk about the others.

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OmniSage

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Definitely stops at Morty.

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cergic

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Anyone arguing for Femto the way it's suggested, i'd love to have you refer me to the chapters containing the feats you think he has to suggest he can win via a) hax due to "passive causality" or b) drag anyone to hell. Please.

Because i don't know what people have read that thinks Femto got fate/causality command to such a fine degree (or barely at all tbh) which i imagine that the odd phrasing actually tries to refers to/claim.

And to the best of my memory he's done incredibly little to showcase some "mastery" over it the way it is argued.

He merged the physical and Astral world due to supplied context and making sure the world tree connects heaven, the underworld and earth is anything but "causality hax" as of right now.

I instinctively believe it's ridiculous reaching and some obscure sub-forum powerscaling nonsense to argue that he is anything overly special when it comes to what seems to be insinuated simply because he redirected/manipulated/altered the behelit-fused swordslash. Dude is, to the best of my knowledge, lacking in clear cut feats. Again - chapters and panels please.

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takenstew22

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#12 takenstew22  Moderator

@cergic: I'm not that far into Berserk, but he did do this.

Not sure if it's anything that special though.

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cergic

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@takenstew22:

That he did. But IMO that's a great TK-esque feat (i'm positive some hyperscalers would throw in fancy terms like reality manipulation), but not something related to the win-cons mentioned above, ie. "Passive Causality"/"Fate hax".

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EcoBlitz

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@cergic: pretty sure it’s cuz of what skull knight and I forgot the name of the brain godhand said and also cuz people missed hitting him with arrows…

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takenstew22

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#15  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator
@cergic said:

@takenstew22:

That he did. But IMO that's a great TK-esque feat (i'm positive some hyperscalers would throw in fancy terms like reality manipulation), but not something related to the win-cons mentioned above, ie. "Passive Causality"/"Fate hax".

It is some form of TK, yes. And basic apostles are much stronger than humans. But that's about it for that feat.

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cergic

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@ecoblitz:

I hope not because it would be an _insane_ stretch to claim that Femto can passively manipulate fate and causality from that, imo.

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cergic

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PrinceX

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I'll only post the panels of feats for Femto, but i won't argue with Berserk downplayers(i know how they act). The panels won't have a good structure and i don't care.

And i repeat i won't respond to anyone trying their hardest to downplay everything and coming with excuses for why this and that isn't the case.

bye

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LilacPlasmaBeam

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Uncle grandpa mops

So does father

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cergic

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What an unholy mess of panel dumping with a lot of context cut out/missing, neat-o.

- Several of the panels literally points out how Griffith aka the hawk is there DUE TO causality, pre-Femto. Check

- Blatant TK feats. Check.

- Shifting the attack vector of the behelit sword, causing the rift to appear, heavy context all over the place. Check.

- Zero combat-applicable feats of Femto "sending someone to hell". Check.

- Zero combat-applicable feats regarding "Passive Causality". Check.

- Panels literally describing how his character avoids physical-based attacks due to him partially residing in the spirit realm, nothing else. Check.

Turns out i've not missed a thing after all.

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PrinceX

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just like expected.

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PrinceX

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cergic

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#23  Edited By cergic

@princex:

No, since i never said Gojo would win. I said that the suggested and implied win conditions were BS.

CaV me that Femto doesn't got feats of "dumping someone to Hell"? And CaV me that Femto in fact doesn't have combat-applicable "Passive Causality" as win conditions?

Edit: in fact, just showcase right here which feats you argue Femto has which means he can "open a portal to hell and drag someone there" and i'll happily concede instantly, if it's showing he could do just that in a battle like this.

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darkphantom9895

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Why is uncle grandpa here

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PrinceX

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#25  Edited By PrinceX

@cergic said:

@princex:

No, since i never said Gojo would win. I said that the suggested and implied win conditions were BS.

CaV me that Femto doesn't got feats of "dumping someone to Hell"? And CaV me that Femto in fact doesn't have combat-applicable "Passive Causality" as win conditions?

Edit: in fact, just showcase right here which feats you argue Femto has which means he can "open a portal to hell and drag someone there" and i'll happily concede instantly, if it's showing he could do just that in a battle like this.

just like expected lol.

Anyways the IOE can control fate and causality and has already set the path for the all of the god hand, they are all ordained by the laws of fate and consecrated by causality. You saying "no combat feats" doesn't make sense, they are still passive causality and fate defenses provided by IOE, we even see arrows not hitting Femto because they were fated to not hit him through IOE. Its very obvious that you need causality or fate stuff to mess with the god hand or other stuff that can counter it.

You literally see the god hand open a portal to hell and drag the count guy into it in the black sowrdsman arc and i already showed most of those panels lol. Now you're goona argue that they need a behelit or something for it? lol. It was just used to summon them, the godhand themselfs opened a portal to hell and dragged him down there.

There are also a bunch of other feats such as Femto being the author compared to other beings like explained by Skull kngiht.

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cergic

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@princex:

"As expected", not a single feat was shared this day showing Femto dragging someone to hell. Chocker.

It makes perfect sense to say "not combat applicable" since it's ... Not combat applicable. Or allow me to rephraee myself - how exactly will Femto cause anyone any harm whatsoever with his "passive Causality"? How will he utilize it to overpower and subdue or harm anyone? And i'm not talking about his feats involving TK; i want a consistent string of panels showing me "passive Causality" causing his opponents to drop.

So far, the argument is:

His physicals manifestation didn't get harmed by arrows.

"The god hand" rekt an already rekt apostle and spirited him away.

"Femto is the author compared to others".

Oh yes, very clear cut feats indeed.

Look man, i love Berserk as much as the next guy but i don't buy this Femto wanking i see pop up on occasion in actual battle threads.

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PrinceX

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#27  Edited By PrinceX

@cergic:

"As expected", not a single feat was shared this day showing Femto dragging someone to hell. Chocker.

Have you read the series? it literally happens in the black swordsman arc??? You really want me to find the panel ok then....

It makes perfect sense to say "not combat applicable" since it's ... Not combat applicable. Or allow me to rephraee myself - how exactly will Femto cause anyone any harm whatsoever with his "passive Causality"? How will he utilize it to overpower and subdue or harm anyone? And i'm not talking about his feats involving TK; i want a consistent string of panels showing me "passive Causality" causing his opponents to drop.

So now you try to act like it was harming someone with it? Anyways that's also easy to explain, IOE literally controls the fate and causality of the god hand and if they have no way to kill the enemy IOE will use their causality and fate hax to get rid of the enemy in front of them to continue their path that they created for them. You don't need to have any feats of killing anything if its confirmed you have causality and fate manipulation. IOE will kill whoever is in front of them if the god hand are struggling. You thinking that they need to have "combat feats" for the IOE's causality and fate manip to work is wrong.

You would actually need to explain why it wouldn't be useful in combat lol. And don't come with "no combat feats dur dur"

Also the argument in the first place wasn't even that it was applicable to hurt someone, you just change the goalpost everytime because your wrong lol.

So far, the argument is:

His physicals manifestation didn't get harmed by arrows.

Becaue fate manipulation made them miss yes.

"The god hand" rekt an already rekt apostle and spirited him away.

lol

"Femto is the author compared to others".

Yeah, pretty good statement for him actually, almost a r>f feat.

Oh yes, very clear cut feats indeed.

Yeah...

Look man, i love Berserk as much as the next guy but i don't buy this Femto wanking i see pop up on occasion in actual battle threads

But can't remember what happens in the first few chapters of berserk, got it.

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cergic

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@princex:

Have you read the series? it literally happens in the black swordsman arc??? You really want me to find the panel ok then....

Have you? You are LITERALLY showing us how an Apostles spirit is dragged down to the abyss, aka "hell", aka "the gathering place of all evil in the world", aka the deepest part of the Astral World. It's literally "just" the Astral World, but the shittiest place.

Do you know WHY the count is dragged there? Because he got rekt, and every single apostle, their victims and branded peeps ends up there when they get rekt. That's the entire context to it. There isn't, to my knowledge, a single shred of ink showcasing otherwise.

Again, have YOU read the series?

So now you try to act like it was harming someone with it? Anyways that's also easy to explain, IOE literally controls the fate and causality of the god hand and if they have no way to kill the enemy IOE will use their causality and fate hax to get rid of the enemy in front of them to continue their path that they created for them. You don't need to have any feats of killing anything if its confirmed you have causality and fate manipulation. IOE will kill whoever is in front of them if the god hand are struggling. You thinking that they need to have "combat feats" for the IOE's causality and fate manip to work is wrong.

You would actually need to explain why it wouldn't be useful in combat lol. And don't come with "no combat feats dur dur"

I'm trying to act as it was harming someone, what? I'm asking you how it would make someone Femto is fighting die or keel over. Show it. This is a battle in a battle forum. You're telling me Femto would win via this "passive causality" and i want to see him win over someone using this specific ability, since it's this specific ability you refer to. It's not complicated.

Becaue fate manipulation made them miss yes.

I'm not even going to bother with the details here and instead just ask again how this will harm Gojo?

lol

Literally the context

Yeah, pretty good statement for him actually, almost a r>f feat.

I'm not even going to bother with the details here and instead just ask again how this will harm Gojo?

Yeah...

Indeed

But can't remember what happens in the first few chapters of berserk, got it.

The guy showcasing panels telling us how Griffith literally becomes Femto due to Causality, but instead argues the same panels somehow explains how Femto has "passive causality". Got it.

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cergic

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#29  Edited By cergic

And before PrinceX decides to twist context and panels to more obscure narrative, every apostle is literally going to the same place when they die. Super early in the Manga, we see Wyald fear dying due to him knowing his spirit will get dumped in the abyss, or "hell. Literally before Griffith ever became Femto.

No Caption Provided

And what do you know, he dies and gets dragged to the Abyss or "hell". Why? Because he's an Apostle, and died. And not a single member of the god hand was present.

No Caption Provided

"muh Hell dumping".

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PrinceX

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@cergic:

Have you? You are LITERALLY showing us how an Apostles spirit is dragged down to the abyss, aka "hell", aka "the gathering place of all evil in the world", aka the deepest part of the Astral World. It's literally "just" the Astral World, but the shittiest place.

So this is literally just wrong, the count actually said no to the god hand, that was the reason he was dragged to hell after he refused the god hand. They literally clearly say he will turn to nothing, not even his individual self will remain. He will literally revert to nothingness, said by Femto himself. It is not where apostles are, he literally gets turned to nothing. Its not simply where apostles gather lol, not even close. You literally get turned to nothingness which is not the case with apostles like we have seen many examples of like Zodd as an example.

So yes Femto can literally turn people to nothingness by dragging them to hell, he could also use his TK or the countless souls of hell to achieve this, You're just wrong.

"As expected", not a single feat was shared this day showing Femto dragging someone to hell. Chocker.

LOL.

Do you know WHY the count is dragged there? Because he got rekt,

No its because he refused the god hand's sacrifice of his daugther.

and every single apostle, their victims and branded peeps ends up there when they get rekt. That's the entire context to it. There isn't, to my knowledge, a single shred of ink showcasing otherwise.

If every single apostle ended up there they would turn to nothingness, but we know almost all apostles have personalities sucvh as Zodd, Grunbeld, Irvine and many more. That is not where Apostles are, they would turn to nothingness if that was the case. And even if that somehow was the case, Femto can still do the exact same thing he did to the count and turn him to nothingness through a similar way.

Again, have YOU read the series?

I have, but you don't seem to know anything about Berserk.

I'm trying to act as it was harming someone, what? I'm asking you how it would make someone Femto is fighting die or keel over. Show it. This is a battle in a battle forum. You're telling me Femto would win via this "passive causality" and i want to see him win over someone using this specific ability, since it's this specific ability you refer to. It's not complicated.

If you have Causality manipulation you can manipulate the cause and effect of stuff. IOE can literally make it so if Gojo takes a breathe the effect would be him dying. Its something you're able to do with causality manip. I don't need to prove a negative. Its like saying a human with a fully functional gun can't kill another human with said gun unless they do it, it doesn't make sense.

And you keep shifting the goalpost, i literally just said he has passive causality and fate hax, but you kept being wrong so you kept moving it.

I'm not even going to bother with the details here and instead just ask again how this will harm Gojo?

Causality manip turns off infinity? or Femto uses his TK to drag him to hell if the countless souls already haven't done so. Griffith can probably also just drag the infinity away like he did with the space cutting attack from Skull knight's sword which cut reality. There are many ways of dealing with him.

The guy showcasing panels telling us how Griffith literally becomes Femto due to Causality, but instead argues the same panels somehow explains how Femto has "passive causality". Got it.

The IOE literally has the god hand's path made for them and through causality and fate manipulation he makes everything possible.

You literally havn't read Berserk and its showing badly, i don't see a point arguing with someone who lies about reading the series he argues about and is wrong on all counts.

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PrinceX

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@cergic:

You thought you were clever here ey?

And before PrinceX decides to twist context and panels to more obscure narrative, every apostle is literally going to the same place when they die. Super early in the Manga, we see Wyald fear dying due to him knowing his spirit will get dumped in the abyss, or "hell. Literally before Griffith ever became Femto.

No Caption Provided

And what do you know, he dies and gets dragged to the Abyss or "hell". Why? Because he's an Apostle, and died. And not a single member of the god hand was present.

If you look at the panels on the black swordsman arc, the god hand had already summoned hell before the count even accepted or refused them. This means they alone can open hell without an apostle dying like you're suggesting here. And Femto can drag them with his TK or summon the deasd to drag them there.

It probably just means the god hand drags every "dead" apostle down there anyways or has some system to do so. Its clearly shown they are able to do it without the apostle dying like seen in the black swordsman arc, they literally did it because he refused to accpet their offer.

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PrinceX

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#32  Edited By PrinceX

Its so obvious the god hand can open hell at will, Femto literally points and open a fucking huge portion of hell up.

Like its not even close to the example you're showing. The god hand literally showed the actual hell at its glory, what you showed doesn't it only opens a small portal insdie the apostle.

They are not even close to being the same thing, the god hand can literally show a "small" big portion of hell unlike what happened with the other apostle.

Femto still opens a portal to hell.

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cergic

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@princex:

My guy, do you even know what the panels are trying to convey?

Panel 1: He's dying, and the God Hand offers him aid should be offer up his daughter (her soul) or he'll get dumped in the Abyss.

Panel 2/3/4/5/6/7: Literally just expanding upon what we saw Wyald talk about way back in like chapter 67, elaborating further what it is, what Wyald meant would happend in the Vortex etc. It's literally just expanding upon it. The count didn't brand and sacrifice his daughter, that's the entire context.

I'm 100% confident that you don't even know what you're reading when you read Berserk.

So yes Femto can literally turn people to nothingness by dragging them to hell, he could also use his TK or the countless souls of hell to achieve this, You're just wrong.

Show it, because as of right now, you're not showing it, and it's frankly getting a bit embarrassing.

LOL.

Indeed

No its because he refused the god hand's sacrifice of his daugther.

Indeed, that's why they didn't same him. Just as how Wyald wanted to be saved and didn't get saved when he was dying, and got killed off in a faster fashion by Zodd. Who wouldda thunk, context.

If every single apostle ended up there they would turn to nothingness, but we know almost all apostles have personalities sucvh as Zodd, Grunbeld, Irvine and many more. That is not where Apostles are, they would turn to nothingness if that was the case. And even if that somehow was the case, Femto can still do the exact same thing he did to the count and turn him to nothingness through a similar way.

They're not dead. When they die, they (seemingly) end up there. Having personalities isn't relevant whatsoever, and i don't even know why you mention it.

It is indeed "somehow the case". You would know if you a) read the damn series and b) knew what you were reading. In fact, here, let me just link you to a wiki. Read it, and accept it.

The Count | Berserk Wiki | Fandom

Abyss | Berserk Wiki | Fandom

I can't believe i have to resort to this.^

I have, but you don't seem to know anything about Berserk.

The irony is staggering

If you have Causality manipulation you can manipulate the cause and effect of stuff. IOE can literally make it so if Gojo takes a breathe the effect would be him dying. Its something you're able to do with causality manip. I don't need to prove a negative. Its like saying a human with a fully functional gun can't kill another human with said gun unless they do it, it doesn't make sense.

And you keep shifting the goalpost, i literally just said he has passive causality and fate hax, but you kept being wrong so you kept moving it.

Ok, i will ask you again - show me Femto "Manipulate the cause and effect of stuff" in a combat scenario relevant to this topic. The last thing i do is shifting goalposts - i am explicitly asking you to show me a single feat with Femto using "passive causality" to do harm to someone like say, Gojo. I've done so since my first post, consistently. If anything, i'm preventing you from shifting goalposts.

I don't need to prove a negative.

That's a concession if i ever saw one

Causality manip turns off infinity? or Femto uses his TK to drag him to hell if the countless souls already haven't done so. Griffith can probably also just drag the infinity away like he did with the space cutting attack from Skull knight's sword which cut reality. There are many ways of dealing with him.

So your actual argument is that Femto can negate Gojos abilities then? Now we're getting to a place where you at least start to make some concrete claims based on the few feats Femto got.

Femto has never used his TK to drag anyone to hell. Gojo isn't an Apostle and has no connection to the abyss.

The IOE literally has the god hand's path made for them and through causality and fate manipulation he makes everything possible.

You literally havn't read Berserk and its showing badly, i don't see a point arguing with someone who lies about reading the series he argues about and is wrong on all counts.

He literally doesn't have the ability to make everything possible.

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cergic

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#34  Edited By cergic
@princex said:

Its so obvious the god hand can open hell at will, Femto literally points and open a fucking huge portion of hell up.

Like its not even close to the example you're showing. The god hand literally showed the actual hell at its glory, what you showed doesn't it only opens a small portal insdie the apostle.

They are not even close to being the same thing, the god hand can literally show a "small" big portion of hell unlike what happened with the other apostle.

Femto still opens a portal to hell.

For christ sake. Chapters 60-70 was following up after the start and foreshadowing of the abyss part of the story initially. And I showcased one panel. Do you want me to show the entire panel chain when Wyald dies which showcases how the soul chain is there, exactly like the Count and how it's directed towards the Abyss? Happily.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And look at that - IT'S THE SOUL CHAIN! TO THE ABYSS! Wow, almost as ... as if that's what happends when they die?

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cergic

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#35  Edited By cergic

I love the core of the argument.

"Earlier in the story, it wasn't the same in details. So it's not the same."

Jesus christ. I guess Asgard's a different place in comics depending on the issue number.

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cergic

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@princex said:

@cergic:

You thought you were clever here ey?

And before PrinceX decides to twist context and panels to more obscure narrative, every apostle is literally going to the same place when they die. Super early in the Manga, we see Wyald fear dying due to him knowing his spirit will get dumped in the abyss, or "hell. Literally before Griffith ever became Femto.

No Caption Provided

And what do you know, he dies and gets dragged to the Abyss or "hell". Why? Because he's an Apostle, and died. And not a single member of the god hand was present.

If you look at the panels on the black swordsman arc, the god hand had already summoned hell before the count even accepted or refused them. This means they alone can open hell without an apostle dying like you're suggesting here. And Femto can drag them with his TK or summon the deasd to drag them there.

It probably just means the god hand drags every "dead" apostle down there anyways or has some system to do so. Its clearly shown they are able to do it without the apostle dying like seen in the black swordsman arc, they literally did it because he refused to accpet their offer.

I don't think i'm clever for merely reading what the damn panels says.

The count was dying.

Femto never used TK to drag anyone to hell.

It "probably" means that as established super early on, apostles dying gets tossed back down the stinky part. The god hand doesn't do shit, and Wyald is explicitly asking for the prescence of the God Hand in order to SAVE HIM from the fate awaiting him - ergo they're literally NOT there to drag him down. If they WERE there, he wouldn't ask for them to be summoned. Sigh.

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PrinceX

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#37  Edited By PrinceX

@cergic:

My guy, do you even know what the panels are trying to convey?

Yeah they Femto opens a portal to hell as he points at it and shows the count and the rest of the people there. Its pretty obvious in comparison to what you showed where a single point in the apostle turns into a portal and he gets dragged form the inside. Two completly different cases.

Panel 1: He's dying, and the God Hand offers him aid should be offer up his daughter (her soul) or he'll get dumped in the Abyss.

Panel 2/3/4/5/6/7: Literally just expanding upon what we saw Wyald talk about way back in like chapter 67, elaborating further what it is, what Wyald meant would happend in the Vortex etc. It's literally just expanding upon it. The count didn't brand and sacrifice his daughter, that's the entire context.

No, Femto opens the portal even before the count even decides, and he shows a huge(small) part of hell, its nowhere close to what you showed. Its not the same at all.

I'm 100% confident that you don't even know what you're reading when you read Berserk.

Ironic.

Show it, because as of right now, you're not showing it, and it's frankly getting a bit embarrassing.

I have already showed it lol. You're right on the embarassing part about yourself tho.

Indeed, that's why they didn't same him.

huh

Just as how Wyald wanted to be saved and didn't get saved when he was dying, and got killed off in a faster fashion by Zodd. Who wouldda thunk, context.

Not the same at all, Femto literally opened a big portion of hell unlike what you showed, they are not the same at all. It even happened before the stirng of fate was severed before he made his choice. Femto just opened a portion of hell.

They're not dead. When they die, they (seemingly) end up there. Having personalities isn't relevant whatsoever, and i don't even know why you mention it.

Because in hell you literally turn to nothingness by Femto's own words.

It is indeed "somehow the case". You would know if you a) read the damn series and b) knew what you were reading. In fact, here, let me just link you to a wiki. Read it, and accept it.

The Count | Berserk Wiki | Fandom

Abyss | Berserk Wiki | Fandom

I can't believe i have to resort to this.^

Reading berserk through the Wiki lol.

The irony is staggering

true.

Ok, i will ask you again - show me Femto "Manipulate the cause and effect of stuff" in a combat scenario relevant to this topic. The last thing i do is shifting goalposts - i am explicitly asking you to show me a single feat with Femto using "passive causality" to do harm to someone like say, Gojo. I've done so since my first post, consistently. If anything, i'm preventing you from shifting goalposts.

He doesn't need to have "shown it in a combat scenario" lol idk why you're pushing on this point. There is no reason why the fate and causality manipulation can't be used that way, you're asking me to prove a negative again. The first post i just said he solos through passive causality and fate hax(as defenses) anhd drags him to hell. IOE still manipulates cause and effect and kills Gojo through breathing tho.

That's a concession if i ever saw one

wrong on every count and starts talking about a concession lol.

So your actual argument is that Femto can negate Gojos abilities then? Now we're getting to a place where you at least start to make some concrete claims based on the few feats Femto got.

Causality manipulation can do that.

Femto has never used his TK to drag anyone to hell.

He never used it on a girl that was 9 years old that looked like guts either, does that mean he can't use it on that person?

Gojo isn't an Apostle and has no connection to the abyss.

Femto can open hell without having to be an apostle as was clearly shown lol.

He literally doesn't have the ability to make everything possible.

No, but he has passive causlity manip through the IOE.

I don't think i'm clever for merely reading what the damn panels says.

The count was dying.

And Femto opened the portal to hell before the count even decided his choice and the fate was severed like said by Void lol.

No Caption Provided

At this point Femto had already summoned Hell which was before the coihce of the count. They can open the portal at will wether you like it or not. Its even completly different to how your example was.

Femto never used TK to drag anyone to hell.

He hasn't used it on serpico either, but he can still do so. This means nothing.

It "probably" means that as established super early on, apostles dying gets tossed back down the stinky part. The god hand doesn't do shit, and Wyald is explicitly asking for the prescence of the God Hand in order to SAVE HIM from the fate awaiting him - ergo they're literally NOT there to drag him down. If they WERE there, he wouldn't ask for them to be summoned.Sigh.

Cool, still not the same thing that happened to the count where Femto literaly opened hell up before the count even made his choice.

Conclusions

First i'll talk about hell. We can take a look at your example, we see wyald getting dragged from the inside of himself(this is probably some mechanic of useless apostles which happens automaticly). There is no portion of hell that shows itself, just a small hole in side the apostle which it gets dragged with.

Now if we take a look at the incident with the count, you can see Femto opening up hell itself before the Count made its choice from the god hand. Its also clearly shown that Femto himself opens it, he points and shows hell. This is something that has nothing to do with the death of an apostle as it happens before the choice and it happens in a different way that how an apostle normally gets dragged there like seen in your example.

They are literally two completly different scenarios. Femto actually opens hell himself.

This whole hell point is obviously true for me, the only thing you can argue is the dead not coming to drag them down, although the god hand seem to control it by the way they open it ect. Femto still has TK feats which he could use or other means like causality or fate manip to make their fate to go inside hell and become nothingness.

Its so obviously that's the case....

Now over to the causality and fate manip stuff, i don't see any reason why they can't use their causality manip to make stuff deadly like the cause being Gojo breathing and the effect being Gojo dying, its a prettyt simple thing to do to someone with 0 resistance to causality manipulation. And the fate hax can also be used in a similar way with combos of other abilities like mentioned earlier.

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cergic

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#38  Edited By cergic

@princex:

Yeah they Femto opens a portal to hell as he points at it and shows the count and the rest of the people there. Its pretty obvious in comparison to what you showed where a single point in the apostle turns into a portal and he gets dragged form the inside. Two completly different cases.

Femto points at what is the faith of every apostle dying, ak the vortex. It's a terrible panel to argue that Femto would be able to do _ANYTHING_ against anyone that's not branded or an apostle.

No, Femto opens the portal even before the count even decides, and he shows a huge(small) part of hell, its nowhere close to what you showed. Its not the same at all.

Explicitly the same place. And we know it's not something Femto controls, thanks Wyald.

Ironic.

mmh

I have already showed it lol. You're right on the embarassing part about yourself tho.

Indeed you have not

huh

Save him*

Not the same at all, Femto literally opened a big portion of hell unlike what you showed, they are not the same at all. It even happened before the stirng of fate was severed before he made his choice. Femto just opened a portion of hell.

Femto points at what is the faith of every apostle dying, ak the vortex. It's a terrible panel to argue that Femto would be able to do _ANYTHING_ against anyone that's not branded or an apostle.

The count was, again, dying.

Because in hell you literally turn to nothingness by Femto's own words.

That's the God Hands explanation indeed, and how is this relevant to the apostles still being alive? Oh right, it isn't.

Reading berserk through the Wiki lol.

I don't, but since you can't seemingly comprehend the panels and refuse to adhere to reason, the Wiki is what you got left in terms of options.

He doesn't need to have "shown it in a combat scenario" lol idk why you're pushing on this point. There is no reason why the fate and causality manipulation can't be used that way, you're asking me to prove a negative again. The first post i just said he solos through passive causality and fate hax(as defenses) anhd drags him to hell. IOE still manipulates cause and effect and kills Gojo through breathing tho.

He doesn't have to have shown it in combat in order to have it applicable in combat? Good luck winning any debate.

"He's got an ability that he ... uh, he used it, i think, in order to avoid arrows and like, narrate his own personal story? So yeah, he wins any fight".

wrong on every count and starts talking about a concession lol.

Curious

Causality manipulation can do that.

I'm not saying it can't - i'm saying i want you to show me it can, and that Femto can.

He never used it on a girl that was 9 years old that looked like guts either, does that mean he can't use it on that person?

You tell me. Moving on from that strange question; he never used TK to drag anyone to hell, so i don't know why you're saying he can, when he never showed anyone he can.

Femto can open hell without having to be an apostle as was clearly shown lol.

The count was dying. And the God Hand clearly isn't without similar connections and conditions as Apostles?

No, but he has passive causlity manip through the IOE.

Why are you agreeing with me and saying "no" to your own previous claim now?

And Femto opened the portal to hell before the count even decided his choice and the fate was severed like said by Void lol.

Because he was dying, and didn't bargain for a second life using the sacrifice of his daughter, he got dragged to the vortex. Just like Wyald.

At this point Femto had already summoned Hell which was before the coihce of the count. They can open the portal at will wether you like it or not. Its even completly different to how your example was.

It's literally the same conditions here for both Wyald and the Count, only including foreshadowing. And it's not "my example". It's the canon storys narrative.

He hasn't used it on serpico either, but he scan still do so. This means nothing.

This is a strange argument to apply in order to argue that someone can do something, when they never ever did it.

Cool, still not the same thing that happened to the count where Femto literaly opened hell up before the count even made his choice.

The panels speaks for themselves.

First i'll talk about hell. We can take a look at your example, we see wyald getting dragged from the inside of himself(this is probably some mechanic of useless apostles which happens automaticly. There is no portion of hell that shows itself, just a small hole in side the apostle which it gets dragged with.

Now if we take a look at the incident with the count, you can see Femto opening up hell itself before the Count made its choice from the god hand. Its also clearly shown that Femto himself opens it, he points and shows hell. This is something that has nothing to do with the death of an apostle as it happens before the choice and it happens in a different way that how an apostle normally gets dragged there like seen in your example.

They are literally two completly different scenarios. Femto actually opens hell himself.

The panel besides Wyalds narrative shows the entire Vortex, or the Abyss. So that's wrong. Moving on, we see the same chain of souls draggin Wyald down. Moving on, we see Wyald begging for the God Hand to save him just like they offered to save the count using a sacrifice. So far, it's literally the exact same.

Femto pointed at the vortex. Cool, his limbs are working.

This whole hell point is obviously true for me, the only thing you can argue is the dead not coming to drag them down, although the god hand seem to control it by the way they open it ect. Femto still has TK feats which he could use or other means like causality or fate manip to make their fate to go inside hell and become nothingness.

Its so obviously that's the case....

Now over to the causality and fate manip stuff, i don't see any reason why they can't use their causality manip to make stuff deadly like the cause being Gojo breathing and the effect being Gojo dying, its a prettyt simple thing to do to someone with 0 resistance to causality manipulation. And the fate hax can also be used in a similar way with combos of other abilities like mentioned earlier.

Yeah it is true to you, but frankly when even wikis are against you, it's time to humbly say "ok maybe i'm a bit off here". I'm just saying, it's a huge stretch in the thread regarding Femtos genuine capabilities here outside of his own setting.

Help me understand - how is Femto being "passive" in his "causality manipulation" if he's ACTIVELY applying it in order to nullify someone elses abilities (again, outside of the setting)? The guesswork here is tremendous and i'm not been asking very difficult questions so far in the thread. I'm merely asking for clear cut feats of Femto doing what you say he's able to casually do, because i sure as hell hasn't seen em reading the story a few times over.

Edit:

I actually got curious and typed in this stupid conversation in ChatGPT in order to have a 100% braindead take on this.

My question: Did femto open up the abyss when the count was dying, or was the abyss going to drag the count down because he was dying?

The answer: In the "Berserk" manga, specifically during the "Black Swordsman" arc, the Abyss opens up to drag the Count down because he is dying and refuses to make another sacrifice. The sequence occurs as follows:

  • Guts confronts the Count and defeats him in battle.
  • The Count, gravely wounded and on the verge of death, is given a chance by the God Hand to save himself by sacrificing his daughter, Theresia.
  • When the Count refuses to make the sacrifice, the God Hand member Femto (Griffith in his demonic form) declares that the Count must face the consequences of his actions.
  • As a result, a portal to the Abyss opens up, intending to drag the Count down as punishment for failing to complete the sacrificial ritual.

Therefore, it is the dying state of the Count and his refusal to make the sacrifice that triggers the opening of the Abyss, leading to his impending doom. Femto and the other God Hand members facilitate this process, but the Abyss opens as a consequence of the Count's situation and choices.

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cergic

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As for the battle, i don't know. Not sure why Femto wouldn't be able to turn Gojos infinite into an infinitely small ball with his TK like he did to the Apostles as collateral damage, since he managed to compress the ball to (seemingly) literally nothing.

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Stops at 3.

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@cergic:

I'll only go over stuff that is relevant to the discussion.

Hell

Femto points at what is the faith of every apostle dying, ak the vortex. It's a terrible panel to argue that Femto would be able to do _ANYTHING_ against anyone that's not branded or an apostle.

Femto literally opens up Hell before the fate was severed and the count made his choice. This literally just shows Femto can open hell at will. The other beings are also effected, Puck Guts. Its not a vision or anything like that. Femto just staright up opens Hell up, and this doesn't have anything to do with the count as he had yet to make his choice and Void even sayd the fate was severed after Femto opened it.

So Femto can still open up hell at will, this disproves nothing.

Explicitly the same place. And we know it's not something Femto controls, thanks Wyald.

These are completly different scenarios.... I'll show them both again:

Guts even says "he's being dragged from the inside" and remember this is after he was deemed useless and is literally already dead which is why this happened. Your whole arguments is based on what happens here.

So the conditions are: Wyald is already dead therefore he gets dragged to hell

and: He gets dragged from the inside.

Now lets show what happens with the count and Femto:

Like seen here Femto opens Hell before the Count has made his choice about sacrificing his daugther. Like Void says after this:

No Caption Provided

Where he refuses.

So what does this tell us? Well lets look back at what happened in your example with Wyald.

Is the count dead?: No he is not, Femto just opened Hell before the count was dead which contradicts your argument about it opening just because of the count. The scenarios are different.

Does it open from inside the count?: No it doesn't, because Femto actually opens Hell himself.

So both of the points of Wyald are not applicable to the count example. This is obviously because Femto himself opened Hell, this can even be seen in the panels where Femto points to hell.

In conclusion your pojt about Wyald is completly wrong and can't be used to debunk anything that happened to the count as everything about the scenarios are different.

He doesn't have to have shown it in combat in order to have it applicable in combat? Good luck winning any debate.

"He's got an ability that he ... uh, he used it, i think, in order to avoid arrows and like, narrate his own personal story? So yeah, he wins any fight".

Do you know what causality manipulation is?

The panel besides Wyalds narrative shows the entire Vortex, or the Abyss. So that's wrong. Moving on, we see the same chain of souls draggin Wyald down. Moving on, we see Wyald begging for the God Hand to save him just like they offered to save the count using a sacrifice. So far, it's literally the exact same.

I've already adressed this, but Wyald was already dead and was dragged through a single point. While Femto literally opened Hell up before the count even made is choice about wheter or not to accpet the god hands offer with his daughter.

Femto pointed at the vortex. Cool, his limbs are working.

Yeah because he did it before the count made his choice and in a different way to what you're trying to claim with Wyald.

Conclusions

You failed to prove anything regarding the count and Wyald, they are clearly not the same like i already proved. Femto can easily open Hell on his own as seen when he did it before the count made his choice and it didn't happen in a similar weay to Wyald where a single point inside his body gor dragged in, Femto actually opened hell itself for everyone to see unlike the single point inside Wyald.

Also learn what causality manipulation is.

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#42  Edited By PrinceX

@cergic:

Ok ur using chatgpt to argue for you i think im done here lol.

Therefore, it is the dying state of the Count and his refusal to make the sacrifice that triggers the opening of the Abyss, leading to his impending doom. Femto and the other God Hand members facilitate this process, but the Abyss opens as a consequence of the Count's situation and choices.

This is also literally just wrong from chatgpt, Hell was already open before the thread of fate was severed and the count refused them lol.

using chatgpt to argue is a new one lmao.

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cergic

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#43  Edited By cergic
@princex said:

@cergic:

Ok ur using chatgpt to argue for you i think im done here lol.

This is also literally just wrong from chatgpt, Hell was already open before the thread of fate was severed and the count refused them lol.

using chatgpt to argue is a new one lmao.

This is dishonest at it's core since i'm literally using it as a last part edit, for two reasons:

1. as a last resort since your cognitive dissonance here is tremendous and you don't agree with any narrative besides your own

2. and to highlight just how far into denial you are when a) forum users b) wikis and c) braindead AI all disagree with you. It's not the hill you want to die on.

It's an excellent method to showcase silly things when it's apparent.

Femto literally opens up Hell before the fate was severed and the count made his choice. This literally just shows Femto can open hell at will. The other beings are also effected, Puck Guts. Its not a vision or anything like that. Femto just staright up opens Hell up, and this doesn't have anything to do with the count as he had yet to make his choice and Void even sayd the fate was severed after Femto opened it.

So Femto can still open up hell at will, this disproves nothing.

He. Was. Dying. And it's not as if it was a frozen-in-time thing; he never said yes, but he never outright said no either. He was contemplating it and mid-thinking he got pulled in. That's it.

Femto points at the vortex. It's a terrible panel to argue that Femto can do _anything_ related to hell against Gojo.

Guts even says "he's being dragged from the inside" and remember this is after he was deemed useless and is literally already dead which is why this happened. Your whole arguments is based on what happens here.

So the conditions are: Wyald is already dead therefore he gets dragged to hell

How is it in any way relevant how it's portrayed regarding how they get sucked into the abyss when they die, since it's still the same place, the same conditions and the same soul chain? And it's without any intervention of either member of the god hand present in order to facilitate the abyss-dumping? Frankly, it's just proof of how the God Hand can PREVENT IT from happening to a dying apostle if they offer new sacrifices, but they're not the ones causing it.

Like seen here Femto opens Hell before the Count has made his choice about sacrificing his daugther.

He points at it. That's all.

Like Void says after this:

Because the count is dead, the thread of his fate had he chosen to sacrifice his daughter is severed. How is this relevant to the ability to open up any portal to the abyss in the whim, exactly?

Does it open from inside the count?: No it doesn't, because Femto actually opens Hell himself.

So both of the points of Wyald are not applicable to the count example. This is obviously because Femto himself opened Hell, this can even be seen in the panels where Femto points to hell.

In conclusion your pojt about Wyald is completly wrong and can't be used to debunk anything that happened to the count as everything about the scenarios are different.

These are all nitpicks regarding details, ignoring the massive pieces that's identical, and you're not adressing them either. Artistic freedom regarding how the Vortex and soul chain manifests (despite the soul chain literally being identical in both cases) is one thing and yes i agree, it's portrayed differently but it changes jack. Femto obviously didn't open it.

The conclusion is just so off.

Do you know what causality manipulation is?

Do you know what the battle forum rules on CV are?

Let me quote them:

Use Feats

Feats are, essentially, evidence of ability to back up an argument.

When looking at feats, be objective. Do critical analysis and unravel the context behind the feats; don’t take them at face value. See if there is:

  • PIS / Plot Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character for the sake of plot.
  • CIS / Character Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character because of something that is occurring in the story. Maybe the character is holding back for some reason, or fighting uncharacteristically ruthlessly.
  • WIS / Writer Induced Stupidity – When something happens in the plot due to the writer not doing research on a character’s prior abilities.

Remember: try to be objective.

I've already adressed this, but Wyald was already dead and was dragged through a single point. While Femto literally opened Hell up before the count even made is choice about wheter or not to accpet the god hands offer with his daughter.

For all we know he was dying and on the brink of being dead - it's not explicit. Furthermore, it's a minor detail and completely irrelevant since Wyald before dying informs us of the fate of Apostles that's dying. They get sucked into the abyss.

Yeah because he did it before the count made his choice and in a different way to what you're trying to claim with Wyald.

Not according to me. Or the panels. Or Wyalds narrative, which clearly is pretty significant. Or ChatGPT. Or Wikis. Only according to you. And you used panels that said Griffith became Femto due to causality in order to argue that Femto is above causality. Hmmmm.

You failed to prove anything regarding the count and Wyald, they are clearly not the same like i already proved. Femto can easily open Hell on his own as seen when he did it before the count made his choice and it didn't happen in a similar weay to Wyald where a single point inside his body gor dragged in, Femto actually opened hell itself for everyone to see unlike the single point inside Wyald.

I really didn't.

Also learn what causality manipulation is.

Learn the rules of the forum you're debating in. See above.