He could push them around and break through their force shields, yeah. I don’t know if he could just grab them and throw them around with the force though.
Not Ashoka due to scaling with Vader, but all post 2015 characters were really weak in the force. Dooku threw a 3kg rock at Yoda and Yoda was like “you’ve grown powerful”.
Not Ashoka due to scaling with Vader, but all post 2015 characters were really weak in the force. Dooku threw a 3kg rock at Yoda and Yoda was like “you’ve grown powerful”.
kek Ahsoka got absolutely demolished by Vader and is the weakest one here... Vader toyed with her until he was ready to kill her. Ezra had to literally manipulate time to save her.
the only thing Ahsoka did against Vader is land a force push.
Not Ashoka due to scaling with Vader, but all post 2015 characters were really weak in the force. Dooku threw a 3kg rock at Yoda and Yoda was like “you’ve grown powerful”.
kek Ahsoka got absolutely demolished by Vader and is the weakest one here... Vader toyed with her until he was ready to kill her. Ezra had to literally manipulate time to save her.
the only thing Ahsoka did against Vader is land a force push.
Where was it stated that Vader toyed with her? Vader vs Kanan and Ezra felt more like toying than the duel Vader had with Ahsoka.
Anyone can ragdoll anyone in canon as passive barriers aren't a thing really. Can he overwhelm them sure. It's stated Vader was helpless against his barrage.
Vader raises a hand and stays his weapon with the force but Obi-Wan twists out of it and force throws him back against a monolith. The Sith Lord doubles over on his hands and knees to recuperate.
Obi-Wan spreads his arms and raises them high causing rocks all around to levitate into the air. With a small pump of his hands they all go flying at Vader as he struggles to his feet. Unable to repel the onslaught he raises an elbow to shield his helmeted head. Obi-Wan pads forwards as the rocks continue to pelt his old pupil. Once the barrage is complete Vader takes a mighty swing the Jedis saber intercepts it.
Not Ashoka due to scaling with Vader, but all post 2015 characters were really weak in the force. Dooku threw a 3kg rock at Yoda and Yoda was like “you’ve grown powerful”.
kek Ahsoka got absolutely demolished by Vader and is the weakest one here... Vader toyed with her until he was ready to kill her. Ezra had to literally manipulate time to save her.
the only thing Ahsoka did against Vader is land a force push.
Where was it stated that Vader toyed with her? Vader vs Kanan and Ezra felt more like toying than the duel Vader had with Ahsoka.
Common misconception. Vader was trying to kill Kanan and Ezra. He didn't need them alive as Hera and the others would escape back to the fleet. SW.com confirms he was going for the kill.
@greysentinel365: The same thing happened when Vader faced Ezra alone. Ahsoka vs the inquisitors is also a better example of toying. Something that Kanan and Ezra struggled to deal with. Vader vs Ahsoka is more of an actual fight compared to these three examples.
He could push them around and break through their force shields, yeah. I don’t know if he could just grab them and throw them around with the force though.
Anyone can ragdoll anyone in canon as passive barriers aren't a thing really.
Passive barriers clearly are a thing. There is a reason Vader can pick up Kenobi and Reva to the point they are helpless but they can't do the same thing back.
@greysentinel365: It depends on what you meant by "passive." If they literally have their guard down, then yeah, I agree they don't have that. But in combat when their guard is up, they do have a "passive/active" force barrier up. And Matt even pretty much confirms this by saying "lapses in their judgement". That means they have to have their guard down to be hit. But someone like Vader has a strong enough guard to not get picked up. So you can say its less of a passive barrier, and more of an active one they have up when concentrating.
@greysentinel365: I think it's more like dragon ball z defense if you've seen that. If they have their ki activated if you hit them and are weaker you do no damage, even if you aren't moving. But if they aren't paying attention and their guard is down they can be hurt by things weaker than themselves.
Also force users don't have to move their body to use the force so this makes sense. They could even be doing force reflection moves without us noticing.
@alextheboss: Pretty much yeah. Like I think we all agree that GI can ragdoll Kanan in their first fight but once his back is turned, even though he's in combat he's ragdoll fodder. Same as SSB getting gutted by a normal blaster.
Same thing as Kanan and Ezra being able to blast back Vader when he's not actively guarding.
@randomidk: there’s been a recent wave of people saying vader “low diffed” ahsoka. it’s several accounts all making the implication vader wasn’t trying against her among other things. frankly i think it’s funny considering there’s 3-4 canon quotes from WOG that all say it was a hard fight and in fact we have a quote saying vader wanted her dead the second most after obi wan. there’s no evidence to say vader was “toying” with her, and the notion itself is a headcanon. (not arguing with you by the way)
@emmafrostxmen: Ahsoka Force pushed an overextending Vader when he was mid-swing. He wasn't actively defending. You can't use that to say she's >= to him in Force-Power. Which she's clearly not if you're familiar with Vader's Force feats in the Canon comics.
Force-Pushing someone who isn't actively shielding from it. Doesn't make you equal to them in Force.
Eeth Koth essentially did what Ahsoka did. And no one wanks/puts him near Vader-tier.
Kenobi can definitely ragdoll thanks to scaling above above comics Vader up to Kenobi show era.
Also, Ahsoka is no Vader level in Force. She only landed a Force-Push because Vader overextended and was mid-swing. It doesn't mean she's on his level in Force.
There's also the issue that she's been implied to be inferior to Rebels Maul in & out of universe:
Referencing Malachor here.
Given that the “logical choice” is pairing Maul with “the weakest of the Jedi”, it then follows that Maul is the strongest of the group. Furthermore, the gap between Ahsoka and Maul is noticeable enough that Kanan (and Ahsoka) are willing to trust Maul with Ezra (Ahsoka and Kanan clearly care for him and likely won’t place him in danger unless absolutely necessary).
This is reflected in Maul and Ahsoka’s respective performances with the Inquisitorius.
In both cases, we have Ahsoka’s superiority to the Inquisitors being evident (less so for the second clip, but I’m letting that slide). In the first clip, she drives them back with some effort, and in the second she (along with Kanan) drive back another pair of Inquisitors. To contrast, Maul casually annihilates them:
Which is supported by the claim that Maul “does so easily” in reference to defeating the Inquisitors. Ahsoka handles the Inquisitors the way Maul handles Qui-Gon in TPM--by taking them out in an extended fight. Maul handles the Inquisitors the way Sidious handles the B-Team in ROTS. From the multiple pieces of evidence that support the claim, we can establish that Maul is indeed a superior to Ahsoka as of Rebels, by a noticeable margin nonetheless.
There's also this quote from Matt Martin about Rebels Maul in comparison to his TCW self:
So this old, rusty Maul managing to keep up with Ahsoka and ragdolling the Inquisitors while Ahsoka, Kanan & Ezra chat is a testament to how powerful a Younger Maul is in comparison.
And being out-of-shape is pretty damaging to any Force user:
An out-of-practice Kenobi is exhuasted after climbing a small distance to save Owen:
1. A small climb almost completely drained him. A small climb anyone like Padawan Ahsoka wouldn't be affected by. Let alone TPM Kenobi.
2. He can't react to an attack from Black Krrsantan. Again. It's something TPM Kenobi would have no issue with. Since that version can casually block multiple blaster bolts while chopping droids.
3. The third page speaks for itself.
And Maul had to live off bugs and remained in far, far worse conditions when compared to Obi-Wan.
Inb4 "Maul was amped!!!" Canon DS Nexus's are lackluster, and barely have any presence. Unlike their Legends counterparts. As shown by a weaker S2 Ezra who only drew on a bit of emotion handily beating Seventh Sister, who managed to casually block a swing from an angry, and the more physically impressive Fifth Brother, when her back was turned.
The only DS Nexus of actual worth is the one in Vader's castle.
So the fact that an out-of-shape Maul matched Ahsoka, when he was living in worse conditions than Kenobi. Is not a good look. And shits on the idea of her being Vader-tier.
And there's also the fact that Vader was strictly going for Sabers against her. And not abusing his MASSIVE Force advantage. Which won't happen in an all-out fight. Cause it ain't written by Filoni to give Ahsoka a chance.
Vader-Tier Ahsoka is just Fanfiction & Wank. She was low-diffed in 47 seconds in pure Sabers. And was clearly struggling to keep up in the last 10 seconds.
If we're now putting everyone who just clashed Sabers with Vader near his level.
Does that mean Kirak Infil'a is now a Vader-tier combatant?
Is 14BBY Eeth Koth a Vader-tier combatant?
The answer is no. And neither is Ahsoka. She doesn't have any current feats to put her on Dooku-Tier. Same guy who's > AoTC Dooku who is = AoTC Yoda in Force-Power. Let alone Vader or Disney+ Kenobi level. Heck, she lacks evidence to say she can beat base RoTS Anakin.
@wholewheat: I know Eeth Koth isn't Rebels Vader level. It's just an example about people who kept up with Vader in the same way Ahsoka did. But are clearly not being wanked on the level of their Vaders, like it happens with Ahsoka. Despite her not doing anything special. And getting manhandled in 47 seconds in Sabers only.
As well as the evidence that craps on her being Vader-tier in combat. Seeing how she was matched by a rusty Maul. And didn't perform as well as he did against Inquisitors. As well as the fact that Rebels Maul was scared of fighting Vader. Plus the evidence that implies that she's around, or below this Maul. Seeing how they threw the weakest (Ezra) with the strongest (Maul) and they didn't choose Ahsoka for that. As well as her not arguing against the idea of Maul protecting Ezra.
And Rebels Maul is < TCW, in case you missed it. Cause being out-of-shape damages Force users badly. As shown with Kenobi in the comic and show. And Maul's living conditions were 3 times worse.
There's just no real way to get Ahsoka to Dooku-level without proper evidence, that shows that she undeniably reached that level. Let alone Vader-tier. Many people don't even believe she's above base RoTS Anakin. Let alone near Vader.
I’m not sure that he can ragdoll, but he absolutely can push them around a bit like he did to Vader. I personally feel like Obi got a very substantial temporary amp/“oneness” during this fight, kind of like how Kanan would get occasional boosts in power (specifically like when he fought the Grand Inquisitor).
@cryolancer47: i had never ever said ahsoka was >|= vader in the force. i just said that her affecting him means she’s strong enough to use the force on someone in vader’s tier. you’d never see a padawan or your average jedi pushing someone like yoda.
and maul only ever contended with ahsoka on a planet that was stated 4 times to amp force users. the “rusty” limitation wasn’t a factor on the planet, and it only applies off of malachor.
S2 Kanan & Ezra did the same thing. Does that make them powerful as well? No. Because landing/affecting someone who's not actively defending, with a Force-Push, doesn't mean anything. And it certainly doesn't speak anything about Ahsoka’s force prowess.
If she did it to a Vader that's actively defending, then sure. But as it is. What she did is nothing special. And has been done multiple time by other characters.
Meanwhile, Kenobi made Vader helpless. And the audio tapes even state Kenobi’s force power was too much for Vader to repel. Which puts him comfortably above KFV/Zonakin. Both of whom many here don't think Ahsoka can beat with her current feats.
Also, the Malachor amp is unqantifiable. Same with every other amp from DS Nexus's. It being mention 3 or 4 times means nothing. Since we don't know how much it amped everyone.
The only Nexus of worth in Canon is Vader's castle. And that's only due to the stuff we see in the comics.
@cryolancer47: the amp means everyone is more powerful than they otherwise would be. that’s all. it’s noteworthy because it was noted by canon sources. doesn’t mean it doubles their power or anything huge like that it is simply worth acknowledging. the episode dialogue even stated that the planet gave its people (the sith) power.
either way i agree about the force pushing thing. you’re right
@cryolancer47: the amp means everyone is more powerful than they otherwise would be. that’s all. it’s noteworthy because it was noted by canon sources. doesn’t mean it doubles their power or anything huge like that it is simply worth acknowledging. the episode dialogue even stated that the planet gave its people (the sith) power.
either way i agree about the force pushing thing. you’re right
1. Cool. Still unquantifiable. So unless you can get specifics, The amp means nothing. Because it can't be gauged. And we don't know how much everyone was amped. Plus the issue with Nexus's in Canon, minus Mortis & Vader's castle, having next to no effect or giving next to no boost in power. Thus being unnoticeable. Unlike their Legends counterparts. Which consistently boost everyone in a way that's easily quantifiable.
Being mentioned =/ powerful boost. Not without a statement or accolade that outright states how powerful it made everyone.
2. S2 Ezra, while using a little bit of emotion. Managed to handily beat Seventh Sister. Who was capable of contending with Kanan. And casually blocked Fifth Brother's attack with her back turned. And if her, and the other Inquisitors were amped. Then Ezra beating her doesn't make any sense. Because they're more immersed in the Dark Side than he is. And we know Ezra didn't use his anger to the extent where it would blind him or allow him to kill her. He still had control over himself. Despite Maul telling him to let go. Which is why Maul ended her by himself. Since Ezra refused. So that already puts the amp to question.
There's also the fact that S2 Ezra is << S2 Kanan. And Kanan clearly couldn't outright low-diff Seventh Sister like Ezra did.
3. Acknowledgment is meaningless if we don't have a way to place the amp. Or gauge/quantify it. Or to say how powerful the characters got, and increased from their original levels. Cause the Inquisitors didn't seem to improve by that much. And Ezra beating the best of them at the moment in Seventh Sister. Is not a good look. And puts the to question.
4. The episode statment is vague and doesn't specify anything. The Inquisitors were already, technically Sith. Or Sith Assassins. They were just not given the title due to Rule of Two being in effect between Sheev & Vader. And Palpatine not wanting to break it. So them getting "The Sith power" is too vague, and doesn't help in making the amp quantifiable.
Sith power like who? Dooku? Maul? Savage? Ventress? Freaking Xanatos?
It's just too vague and flowery for me to believe. Just like Sequel statements/accolades.
@cryolancer47: 1) this isn’t a good example because ezra is more connected to the force than the seventh sister is shown to be. a nexus allows for a stronger connection to the force as stated in the guidebook that mentioned malachor in the first place. these stronger connections would obviously work better for people that already have stronger connections. rage amp also lets people do crazy shit in star wars (ventress choking anakin and obi wan at once) so i’d hardly count that as a good showing for either argument here.
2) you keep making the implication i said the amp was huge. i never said that. i said it was noteworthy because it was factually noted. had the planet not amped people in a noticeable way it wouldn’t have been chosen to be a nexus in the first place.
3) even in legends amps varied in strength. not all we’re equal. some connections were stronger than others, but most importantly no connections had a concrete factual amount that it amped force users even in legends. all we knew was that it altered the power levels of the characters on the field to a degree just as it is here. it’s literally a dark side temple stated to not only give sith power, it was stated the inquisitors had special abilities on the planet, and it was chosen as a nexus point. there’s dark side energy literally oozing out of that place. i’m not sure why it wouldn’t change the events of the episode as least enough to make up for maul being “rusty” which isn’t very significant in star wars as characters can go long periods of time without dueling and be in tip top shape already as shown time and time again. being surrounded by dark side energy for a lengthy period of time, on a planet confirmed to give sith power, and while gaining back his lust for revenge (due to seeing ezra) thar second hand quote really has no bearings (at least on malachor).
1. That's not true for season 2 Ezra. The guy was absolutely dogshit in everything Force related. It's only when he met Maul do we see him show anything decent. And it's still not Kanan-level. So him beating the Seventh Sister still makes very little sense. Seeing how she can challenge Kanan. Unless S2 Ezra while tapping a little bit into his emotions. While still retaining control is > S2 Kanan.
2. He wasn't rage-amped. A rage amp implies he was letting go completely. Which isn't true. We clearly see what a rage-amped character looks like in TPM Kenobi, Savage, Maul, Ventress, and Vader in the comics. In both Legends and Canon. They completely succumb to their rage to get boosted. They don't hold back like Ezra does. As shown with TPM Kenobi. So claiming he was rage-amped is pretty iffy.
3. And you keep implying that the amp boosted everyone to a decent degree. When no one showed anything above their usual level. Except for an Ezra who was being taught by Maul to use a bit of his emotions. The same way other Legends characters did. It doesn't mean he was amped by the DS Nexus. And it doesn't mean he was rage-amped.
4. Legends Nexus amps >>>>> Canon Nexus amps. They varied in strength, but they were clearly more noticeable and quantifiable. While the Canon variations aren't. And it's why no one takes them seriously. It can be mentioned 200 more times, if you're into that. It would still not help at quantifying how much it amped everyone individually.
5. What dark side abilities did the Inquisitors gain on Malachor? Because all I see is their basic tool-kit with nothing new. We see 0 change in power-level and abilities. Because, again. DS Nexus's in Canon are downright meaningless. Bar 2 particular locations. Which Malachor doesn't even come close to in anyway, shape or form.
6. Dark side energy oozing out of a place isn't something special. And a Force user sensing it isn't special either. Even pre-Maul training S2 Ezra felt cold when Vader was nearby. And you don't need a strong Force connection to know some place is filled with DS energy. As shown by the untrained Leia sensing Maul's presence 20 years after TPM:
And Leia at this point has next to 0 training about anything Force related. So all you need is just to be a Force user. Or someone who has Force abilities. Trained or untrained, to sense a place filled with DS energy.
So Malachor being stated to be filled with DS energy means nothing. Since you can say the same about every other Canon Nexus we saw. Including the one above.
7. There's no proof that the amp, IF he even got amped, made up for him being rusty. This is just headcanon. Because bringing up that he's rusty and < TCW Maul is pointless, otherwise. And amps don't immediately clean up and take away your drawbacks in the blink of an eye. Unless you get an immense boost, Zonakin-style. So, unless Malachor was giving Maul a Zonakin/KFV-Tier amp. He should still have his initial issues. Since it's skill related as well. Not just physically.
8. Being surrounded by DS energy like in every other Canon Nexus. And being stated to be given "Sith Powers" is vague at best, and doesn't help in making the amp quantifiable. There's also the fact that the Inquisitors didn't get anything new, ability wise. Which throws the quote along with every other vague ass Sequel quote about "Great power." or "Kylo inherited Anakin's skills with a Saber." Or whatever other vague BS they got.
So using a vague ass quote means nothing. And bringing up DS energy does nothing as well. Seeing how EVERY other Nexus is filled with DS energy. And Seventh sister performance against an Ezra who is yet to be any good with the Force, and hasn't displayed a decent connection anywhere before this point, debunks the idea that they're amped heavily. Or getting any sort of boost.
Ezra only shows a good connection to the Force in the next seasons. And you can't scale S2 to them for obvious reasons. Unless you can say AoTC is = RoTS in his connection to the Force.
9. And Malachor has no proof to say it amped anyone to a significant degree. The quote being mentioned a few times, without any specifics of how much it boosted someone, doesn't prove it boosted them by much. No matter how many times it's mentioned. And this is ignoring the fact that Canon Nexus amps are damn near non-existent. And have next to no effect. Unlike their Legends counterparts.
@greysentinel365: I actually just found some possible evidence for passive force defense. Yoda had trouble gripping the blue material in the star wars 2015 comic because it was "alive with the force" which would imply things "alive with the force" such as powerful force users, would be harder to move than something with a smaller amount of force. It's chapter 27 if you want to reference it.
@alextheboss: Very much something unique to the crystals. Yoda has to basically learn a new method to manipulate them. And despite Yoda and Luke having TK’d other people by the time they encountered them they note it’s something different.
Well he was amped when he ragdolled Vader. These 3 characters are definitely weaker than Suited Vader, so I would say Kenobi at this state could ragdoll them but under normal circumstances, no.
@cryolancer47: just wanted to point out that Ezra didn’t technically beat 7th Sister. They briefly engaged in a duel and Ezra’s anger allowed him to drive her back for a time. She didn’t look like she was in serious trouble though. Ezra won a brief exchange, then Maul then ends the whole fight by choking 7th Sister.
@cryolancer47: Ezra also clashed with her. He even was pushing her back in the 2v2 duel in episode 18 before they did their “cross” maneuver. He got ragdolled when 5th Brother hit him in the back with a Force push while he was saving Kanan. He was doing pretty good against both Inquisitors in that fight, and he also tied Kanan in their sparring matches numerous times.
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