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#1 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

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MCU Captain America is thrown into an alternate timeline after receiving his SSS, and must complete the entire television series known as Arrow.

Rules:

Assume that each season, Cap will have progressed to the point he was in the next movie. For example, during the events of Season 1, Cap is limited to Captain America: The First Avenger feats. Once he goes to Season 2, He has access to The Avengers feats, once he goes to Season 3 he has access to Captain America: The Winter Soldier feats and so on.

He is in character, and starts with his shield. Assume that all the villains treat him like they do Oliver.

Bonus: Captain America reruns the show, but now has access to everything Oliver has access too.

TL:DR: Basically, is there a threat Oliver faced that would stop Captain America?

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#3 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36610 posts) - - Show Bio

Only thing is he wasn't that skilled in Avengers just yet...so he could lose to Slade

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#4 Posted by nerdchore (8125 posts) - - Show Bio

Loses to a few guys.

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#5 Posted by buildhare (8619 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah Avengers Steve could lose to Slade, if he has the same plot armor and devices Oliver had he'll be fine.

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#6 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Could lose to Slade and could lose to Malcolm because he wasn't that good in the first avenger. Probably does lose against Darhk.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5a220d15cc740 (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

TFA Cap clears season 01.

Avengers' Cap could lose to Slade in 1v1 but with the help of team arrow he would prevail like Ollie did. So he clears s02.

TWS and AoU Cap definitely clear s03 and s04 respectively.

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#8 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4503 posts) - - Show Bio

Could lose to Slade and could lose to Malcolm because he wasn't that good in the first avenger. Probably does lose against Darhk.

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#9 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

TFA Cap is not beating Malcolm. That guy snuck up on Oliver and almost killed him.

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#10 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15678 posts) - - Show Bio

So with the progression described, he'll likely lose in season 2 to Deathstroke. With all of Ollie's resources, AoU Cap probably loses season 4 to Darhk.

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#11 Edited by Sy8000 (35087 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Deadshot.

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#12 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: Wait, is he going through whole events of season or just fighting the big bads?

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#13 Posted by buildhare (8619 posts) - - Show Bio

With the rounds:

1: Avengers Cap loses to DS

2: Clears with ease

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#14 Posted by LDM (5361 posts) - - Show Bio

With the rounds:

1: Avengers Cap loses to DS

2: Clears with ease

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#15 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43020 posts) - - Show Bio

Loses to deadshot in season one. One curare bullet is all it takes.

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#16 Posted by Pokeysteve (12017 posts) - - Show Bio

Round one he loses at most of the main notable bad guys. Deadshot, Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ras and Damian.

With Ollie's resources I still don't think he's getting past his duel with Ras.

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#17 Posted by lubub55 (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

No. It takes more than just physicals and fighting skill to clear it.

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#18 Edited by ParagonNate (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: The SSS fights toxins so effectively that Steve can't even get drunk when downing a whole bottle of whiskey in a few minutes. I really rather doubt a single poison bullet is going to take him down due to the poison alone.

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#19 Posted by lubub55 (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Actual poison is much more potent than alcohol.

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#20 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap clears both times, despite what the Arrow zealots would suggest. MCU Captain America is well above Arrow's ability level.

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#21 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

TFA Cap is not beating Malcolm. That guy snuck up on Oliver and almost killed him.

By sneaking up on him. I really doubt that Cap can't take arrows, and he's more than strong enough to handle Merlyn, especially with his shield.

With the rounds:

1: Avengers Cap loses to DS

2: Clears with ease

I think Avengers Cap can hold his own against Deathstroke. Sending people flying through the air and one-shotting ordinary humans are well within Avengers Cap's ability to do. I don't see an overwhelming edge on Deathstroke's part.

Round one he loses at most of the main notable bad guys. Deadshot, Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ras and Damian.

With Ollie's resources I still don't think he's getting past his duel with Ras.

Why not? Cap is significantly stronger than Ra's. He may not have any real sword skill to speak of, but he's more than strong enough to overwhelm him. I also don't see him losing to Deadshot, Merlyn, or Deathstroke.

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#22 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio
@rbt said:

@firstolympian: Wait, is he going through whole events of season or just fighting the big bads?

All major events.

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#23 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

By sneaking up on him. I really doubt that Cap can't take arrows, and he's more than strong enough to handle Merlyn, especially with his shield.

Oliver's awareness feats completely outclass those of Steve from all of his movies, let alone just TFA. There is no way Cap can hear Merlyn sneaking up on him considering he successfully snuck up on Oliver.

As for how Merlyn deals with lesser skilled opponents-

Loading Video...

TFA Cap is not even touching Merlyn.

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#24 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: So, to clarify:

Season 1: TFA Feats only

Season 2: Everything up to and including "The Avengers"

Season 3: Everything up to and including TWS

Season 4: Everything up to and including AoU

Season 5: Everything up to present

In that case, Captain America will get stalemated or challenged by certain foes, but I have every confidence that he can win a majority against most of them. Even in TFA, he was sending Hydra troops flying through the air and punching through a submarine's top underwater (which would have stolen energy away from his punch). He was holding his own against the metal-busting Red Skull, and was durable enough to take hits from him. I see no reason at all why he can't outmuscle Merlyn in H2H. As for his arrows, Cap can just block those with his shield, which he can also use to keep himself safe from Deadhsot's bullets. Sure, Lawton might try to aim for the legs or feet, but then Cap can just lower his shield to protect that area as needed. He doesn't have to keep his shield in a fixed position.

Also, Arrow beat Deadshot, and he's not a bullet-timer. I don't see why Cap can't exploit the same advantages over Lawton that Arrow did, or why a shield throw will be any less effective at taking him down than an arrow to the eye.

For Season 2, he is already about as strong as any Mirakuru human, and should therefore be able to hold his own. He certainly has better unarmed skill than random empowered grunts or Cyrus Gold. Only person in Season 2 who he might lose to is Mirakuru Deathstroke, and even then I think Cap has good enough feats to hold his own. Deathstroke after being hit with the cure would lose.

For Season 3, he cleans house. Nobody in Season 3 is going to be any real threat to him at that point unless you count Reverse Flash (as Oliver helped fight him towards the end of Flash's first season).

For Season 4, while Damian may have TK, Cap should be durable enough to take being tossed around. Damian could try life-draining, but in the scenario where he has all of Oliver's resources, then he'll just be bailed out at the last minute every time Green Arrow was. He can easily beat Damian in H2H, and one-shot most anyone else.

For Season 5, he stomps all the way through.

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#25 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

Season 1: TFA Feats only

Season 2: Everything up to and including "The Avengers"

Season 3: Everything up to and including TWS

Season 4: Everything up to and including AoU

Season 5: Everything up to present

Yeap.

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#26 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Even if Merlyn can sneak up on Cap as he did Arrow, Oliver survived multiple arrows to his back, I fail to see why Cap can't do the same. The idea that he's "not touching him" is to me absurd, as nothing indicates that Merlyn is so exponentially faster (and please don't invoke the arrow-timing, as I don't buy that "arrow timing trumps all" rhetoric). All it will take is one solid hit to bring Merlyn down. He may be more skilled in raw unarmed combat ability, but Cap is still stronger and more durable.

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#27 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: I thought so. Well, my opinions stand where they are. First time around, he stops in Season 4 due to Damian's life-draining. Second time around, he clears with total ease.

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#28 Posted by RabumAlal (4879 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap cruises through alll rounds easy.

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#29 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't remember all the opponents Oliver faced in S1, but the ones I'm sure can beat TFA Cap are Ben Turner and Malcolm. I might be blanking on a few though.

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#30 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Bronze Tiger was Season 2, and Cap as of The Avengers is more than strong enough to do to him what Roy on the Mirakuru did.

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#31 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

Even if Merlyn can sneak up on Cap as he did Arrow, Oliver survived multiple arrows to his back, I fail to see why Cap can't do the same.

Oliver got two arrows in his back after he dodged half a dozen. Steve is nowhere near Oliver in terms of reflexes.

The idea that he's "not touching him" is to me absurd, as nothing indicates that Merlyn is so exponentially faster (and please don't invoke the arrow-timing, as I don't buy that "arrow timing trumps all" rhetoric).

Arrow timing does not trump all, but it does trump every reflex feat Steve has to date. Merlyn is exponentially faster and is way more skilled. Steve is not touching Merlyn in h2h.

All it will take is one solid hit to bring Merlyn down. He may be more skilled in raw unarmed combat ability, but Cap is still stronger and more durable.

Then its a good thing Malcolm has a bow and arrows that basically bypasses Cap's durability.

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#32 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Bronze Tiger was Season 2,

You're right about BT

and Cap as of The Avengers is more than strong enough to do to him what Roy on the Mirakuru did.

Yeah. Cap is still not strong enough to shatter a 8 inch thick concrete or punch a hole in a metal container. He certainly wasn't in Avengers. You put way too much stock in sending people flying.

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#33 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@shroudofsorrow:

Even if Merlyn can sneak up on Cap as he did Arrow, Oliver survived multiple arrows to his back, I fail to see why Cap can't do the same.

Oliver got two arrows in his back after he dodged half a dozen. Steve is nowhere near Oliver in terms of reflexes.

The idea that he's "not touching him" is to me absurd, as nothing indicates that Merlyn is so exponentially faster (and please don't invoke the arrow-timing, as I don't buy that "arrow timing trumps all" rhetoric).

Arrow timing does not trump all, but it does trump every reflex feat Steve has to date. Merlyn is exponentially faster and is way more skilled. Steve is not touching Merlyn in h2h.

All it will take is one solid hit to bring Merlyn down. He may be more skilled in raw unarmed combat ability, but Cap is still stronger and more durable.

Then its a good thing Malcolm has a bow and arrows that basically bypasses Cap's durability.

1) He dodged arrows being fired at him, yeah. I never suggested that Arrow was not an arrow-timer. But, Merlyn shot him when he took Arrow by surprise. Sure, he could take Cap by surprise too, but I don't see why Cap can't tank the arrows (or Merlyn's kicks) the way Arrow did. So basically, worst comes to worst, it will be the same as Arrow's fight with Merlyn, only with Cap instead of Arrow. But I don't think Merlyn will kill him.

2) Uh, no, because Cap held his own against Black Panther, who is an arrow-timer. The idea that arrow-timers are exponentially faster than MCU Cap is (to me), completely bogus. Merlyn is not exponentially faster at all.

3) Not convinced of that either. They didn't kill Arrow, and Cap has better durability feats from movie to season (as in, TFA Cap>Season 1 Arrow, Avengers Cap>Season 2 Arrow, and so on).

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#34 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@shroudofsorrow said:

@rbt: Bronze Tiger was Season 2,

You're right about BT

and Cap as of The Avengers is more than strong enough to do to him what Roy on the Mirakuru did.

Yeah. Cap is still not strong enough to shatter a 8 inch thick concrete or punch a hole in a metal container. He certainly wasn't in Avengers. You put way too much stock in sending people flying.

Roy shattered a concrete block. Impressive, but Cap held his own against Red Skull, who is a metal-buster. He also punched through the top of a submarine while underwater, which would have stolen energy away from his punch. He's sent Chitauri flying too, who are bigger than ordinary humans. All of that should be good enough to easily handle Bronze Tiger. He was totally helpless against Mirakuru Roy. Even if we go with the notion that Avengers Cap is "weaker" than Roy, it doesn't seem like it's by much. He should still be strong enough to overwhelm him.

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#35 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

Deadshot kills him, S1 Malcolm kills him, Solomon Grundy kills him, Damien Darhk kills him

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#36 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@captain_batman_ftw: Damian yes. The others, no. Avengers Cap should be strong enough to hold his own against Cyrus, and I remain unconvinced that either Deadshot or Merlyn can beat even TFA Cap unless it's an ambush.

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#37 Posted by uugieboogie (13023 posts) - - Show Bio

Deadshot kills him, S1 Malcolm kills him, Solomon Grundy kills him, Damien Darhk kills him

If an arrow can penetrate Cyrus then a shield toss and shield strike (both of which have penetrated and damaged stronger substances) will do a lot of damage. Not to mention Cyrus would be hard pressed trying to even land a strike on Cap.

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#38 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: Does Cap "stop" or "lose" if he loses any fight? Or does it end if or when he's killed? Because if the former, then he can potentially stop at Season 1 to Merlyn or Deadshot landing a lucky shot (though it's still not a guarantee). If the latter, then my stance is unchanged.

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#39 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: Agreed. And, Cap as of the Avengers is comparable to the Mirakuru humans in strength. Maybe not perfectly equal, but comparable.

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#40 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

He dodged arrows being fired at him, yeah. I never suggested that Arrow was not an arrow-timer. But, Merlyn shot him when he took Arrow by surprise. Sure, he could take Cap by surprise too, but I don't see why Cap can't tank the arrows (or Merlyn's kicks) the way Arrow did. So basically, worst comes to worst, it will be the same as Arrow's fight with Merlyn, only with Cap instead of Arrow. But I don't think Merlyn will kill him.

No. The fight going as it did for Oliver would be best case scenario for Steve. Oliver was fast enough to react to arrows. Steve isn't.

Uh, no, because Cap held his own against Black Panther, who is an arrow-timer. The idea that arrow-timers are exponentially faster than MCU Cap is (to me), completely bogus. Merlyn is not exponentially faster at all.

So, you are saying that the idea of, characters who have feats of catching an arrow, being faster than those who has never shown reflexes on that level, is bogus(to you)?

Not convinced of that either. They didn't kill Arrow, and Cap has better durability feats from movie to season (as in, TFA Cap>Season 1 Arrow, Avengers Cap>Season 2 Arrow, and so on).

Actually against piercing, Oliver and Steve are one and same.

@rbt said:
@shroudofsorrow said:

@rbt: Bronze Tiger was Season 2,

You're right about BT

and Cap as of The Avengers is more than strong enough to do to him what Roy on the Mirakuru did.

Yeah. Cap is still not strong enough to shatter a 8 inch thick concrete or punch a hole in a metal container. He certainly wasn't in Avengers. You put way too much stock in sending people flying.

Roy shattered a concrete block. Impressive, but Cap held his own against Red Skull, who is a metal-buster. He also punched through the top of a submarine while underwater, which would have stolen energy away from his punch. He's sent Chitauri flying too, who are bigger than ordinary humans. All of that should be good enough to easily handle Bronze Tiger. He was totally helpless against Mirakuru Roy. Even if we go with the notion that Avengers Cap is "weaker" than Roy, it doesn't seem like it's by much. He should still be strong enough to overwhelm him.

Metal buster. Denting a metal<<<<Punching a hole in a bomb proof metal. Cap is weaker than Roy. And the only reason Roy defeated BT was because he ambushed him when he was concentrating on Oliver. In a straight up fight, BT would take Cap without much trouble. Faster, way more skilled and has a weapon than can kill him.

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#41 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Cap would decide that. Do you think he'd just quit if he got KO'd? If so, he loses. If not, he keeps going until he dies.

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#42 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@shroudofsorrow:

He dodged arrows being fired at him, yeah. I never suggested that Arrow was not an arrow-timer. But, Merlyn shot him when he took Arrow by surprise. Sure, he could take Cap by surprise too, but I don't see why Cap can't tank the arrows (or Merlyn's kicks) the way Arrow did. So basically, worst comes to worst, it will be the same as Arrow's fight with Merlyn, only with Cap instead of Arrow. But I don't think Merlyn will kill him.

No. The fight going as it did for Oliver would be best case scenario for Steve. Oliver was fast enough to react to arrows. Steve isn't.

He can always block them with his shield. And, as of Civil War, he is fast enough to react to arrows.

@rbt said:

@shroudofsorrow:

He dodged arrows being fired at him, yeah. I never suggested that Arrow was not an arrow-timer. But, Merlyn shot him when he took Arrow by surprise. Sure, he could take Cap by surprise too, but I don't see why Cap can't tank the arrows (or Merlyn's kicks) the way Arrow did. So basically, worst comes to worst, it will be the same as Arrow's fight with Merlyn, only with Cap instead of Arrow. But I don't think Merlyn will kill him.

No. The fight going as it did for Oliver would be best case scenario for Steve. Oliver was fast enough to react to arrows. Steve isn't.

Uh, no, because Cap held his own against Black Panther, who is an arrow-timer. The idea that arrow-timers are exponentially faster than MCU Cap is (to me), completely bogus. Merlyn is not exponentially faster at all.

So, you are saying that the idea of, characters who have feats of catching an arrow, being faster than those who has never shown reflexes on that level, is bogus(to you)?

It's bogus to me that someone who is on the level of arrow-timer is somehow significantly slower than someone who is on the level of arrow-timer, yes. The arrow-timing thing is blown so utterly out of proportion, and it's beyond irritating. Cap is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows, Merlyn is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows (Arrow, concerning reflexes, not skill). The idea that Merlyn's catching arrows makes him overwhelmingly faster than even Cap as of now? Yeah, that's bogus to me.

As for piercing, Cap kept moving after multiple gunshot wounds. Arrow has never done that. One shot to the foot/lower leg early in Season 2 had him retreat. I will concede that the gap is not as large where piercing damage is concerned, but it should still be in Steve's favor (at least, as of TWS anyway...)

@rbt said:

@shroudofsorrow said:

@rbt said:
@shroudofsorrow said:

@rbt: Bronze Tiger was Season 2,

You're right about BT

and Cap as of The Avengers is more than strong enough to do to him what Roy on the Mirakuru did.

Yeah. Cap is still not strong enough to shatter a 8 inch thick concrete or punch a hole in a metal container. He certainly wasn't in Avengers. You put way too much stock in sending people flying.

Roy shattered a concrete block. Impressive, but Cap held his own against Red Skull, who is a metal-buster. He also punched through the top of a submarine while underwater, which would have stolen energy away from his punch. He's sent Chitauri flying too, who are bigger than ordinary humans. All of that should be good enough to easily handle Bronze Tiger. He was totally helpless against Mirakuru Roy. Even if we go with the notion that Avengers Cap is "weaker" than Roy, it doesn't seem like it's by much. He should still be strong enough to overwhelm him.

Metal buster. Denting a metal<<<<Punching a hole in a bomb proof metal. Cap is weaker than Roy. And the only reason Roy defeated BT was because he ambushed him when he was concentrating on Oliver. In a straight up fight, BT would take Cap without much trouble. Faster, way more skilled and has a weapon than can kill him.

He hit Bronze Tiger once, and then BT had his attentions focused on Roy. Roy then hit him hard enough to send him spiraling through the air and kept hitting him (somehow not able to kill him due to PIS), before Oliver stepped in and calmed him. He one-shot Bronze Tiger fair and square. BT was facing him down, and Roy sent him spinning through the air with a punch.

And, punching a hole in metal may be a better strength feat on Roy's end, but it's the only better one he has. Cap can match just about everything else as of Avengers (and he does surpass him entirely by the time of TWS/AoU/CW). Like I said, even if we accept that Cap is weaker than Roy as of The Avengers, I still think he's strong enough to beat Bronze Tiger easily. All it would take is a few hits, and claws Turner may have, but Cap has a shield to protect himself. Any iteration of MCU Cap should be able to handle Bronze Tiger except for maybe TFA, and even that version should have a chance. Cap as of TWS onwards stomps Bronze Tiger.

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#43 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: Well no, Cap won't give up the good fight if he's lost one fight non-fatally. So, if the gauntlet goes until ultimate victory or death, then my stance is the same as before: first time around, he stops at Damian, second time around, he easily clears.

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#44 Posted by ParagonNate (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Considering the fact that alcohol IS a poison.....you're wrong. Also, that much alcohol in that short amount of time WOULD kill a normal human, Steve didn't even get a buzz.

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#45 Posted by lubub55 (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Alcohol is a poison as I said, however it is nowhere near as potent as curare. There's a reason beer isn't coated on bullets to kill people.

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#46 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

He can always block them with his shield. And, as of Civil War, he is fast enough to react to arrows.

I must have missed it. When did he block an arrow or something as fast? And don't say he fought BP who can react to arrows. That's ABC logic.

It's bogus to me that someone who is on the level of arrow-timer is somehow significantly slower than someone who is on the level of arrow-timer, yes. The arrow-timing thing is blown so utterly out of proportion, and it's beyond irritating. Cap is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows, Merlyn is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows (Arrow, concerning reflexes, not skill). The idea that Merlyn's catching arrows makes him overwhelmingly faster than even Cap as of now? Yeah, that's bogus to me.

How are you judging Steve is on level of arrow timers? So, he landed one hit on BP and now all of BP's feats are Cap's? Didn't know that's how it worked.

As for piercing, Cap kept moving after multiple gunshot wounds. Arrow has never done that. One shot to the foot/lower leg early in Season 2 had him retreat. I will concede that the gap is not as large where piercing damage is concerned, but it should still be in Steve's favor (at least, as of TWS anyway...)

Again, you are assuming the best case scenario for Cap. Cap is not avoiding early arrow shots like Oliver was. As for pain tolerance, Oliver was stabbed almost in his spine and he was fine a few seconds later.

He hit Bronze Tiger once, and then BT had his attentions focused on Roy. Roy then hit him hard enough to send him spiraling through the air and kept hitting him (somehow not able to kill him due to PIS), before Oliver stepped in and calmed him. He one-shot Bronze Tiger fair and square. BT was facing him down, and Roy sent him spinning through the air with a punch.

He tackled BT, and before BT could even look at him properly, he uppercut him and that basically ended the fight. Not really a fair one.

And, punching a hole in metal may be a better strength feat on Roy's end, but it's the only better one he has. Cap can match just about everything else as of Avengers (and he does surpass him entirely by the time of TWS/AoU/CW). Like I said, even if we accept that Cap is weaker than Roy as of The Avengers, I still think he's strong enough to beat Bronze Tiger easily. All it would take is a few hits, and claws Turner may have, but Cap has a shield to protect himself. Any iteration of MCU Cap should be able to handle Bronze Tiger except for maybe TFA, and even that version should have a chance. Cap as of TWS onwards stomps Bronze Tiger.

None of Cap's striking feats trump that of Roy's as of yet. And you are severely underrating BT here. He was literally blitzing Oliver.

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#47 Posted by nfactor1995 (12831 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: That's because in that small of an amount (coating the exterior of a bullet), the poison is significantly more potent than the alcohol.

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#48 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5775 posts) - - Show Bio
@rbt said:

@shroudofsorrow:

He can always block them with his shield. And, as of Civil War, he is fast enough to react to arrows.

I must have missed it. When did he block an arrow or something as fast? And don't say he fought BP who can react to arrows. That's ABC logic.

Chitauri and Hydra troop laser-blasts?

And here's the funny thing about ABC logic: people assume that anyone whose fought any arrow-timer in Arrow, or anyone whose ever fought Arrow, is an awesome fighter. Everyone from Maseo to Nyssa to Al-Owal is considered a master H2H fighter because they lost to Arrow.

Well, in that case, I think I'm totally right to say that fighting evenly with an arrow-timer puts Cap at the same level of reflexes. No reason why it wouldn't. I didn't see Black Panther dancing circles around him, I didn't see him moving so fast Cap couldn't keep up, I didn't see him speed-blitzing, etc. No, I think it's safe to say that Cap as of Civil War is an arrow-timer and thus perfectly capable of keeping pace with anybody in the Arrowverse.

@rbt said:

It's bogus to me that someone who is on the level of arrow-timer is somehow significantly slower than someone who is on the level of arrow-timer, yes. The arrow-timing thing is blown so utterly out of proportion, and it's beyond irritating. Cap is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows, Merlyn is equal to someone who has reacted to arrows (Arrow, concerning reflexes, not skill). The idea that Merlyn's catching arrows makes him overwhelmingly faster than even Cap as of now? Yeah, that's bogus to me.

How are you judging Steve is on level of arrow timers? So, he landed one hit on BP and now all of BP's feats are Cap's? Didn't know that's how it worked.

Never said that. I said that Black Panther never once showed overwhelmingly better speed than Captain America despite being an arrow-timer, and so I have no reason to think that he is exponentially faster. Captain America is at arrow-timer speed/reflexes level, at least of Civil War. You want to argue he's not as of TFA? Fair enough. But as of Civil War, he is in fact in that speed/reflexes range, making the idea that any random person in the Arrowverse is faster than him ridiculous (although honestly, it was always ridiculous).

Also, when you consider that Panther has held his own against Winter Soldier just as convincingly as Captain America has, yeah, I am inclined to think the two are in each-other's range in all fields, reflexes included.

@rbt said:

As for piercing, Cap kept moving after multiple gunshot wounds. Arrow has never done that. One shot to the foot/lower leg early in Season 2 had him retreat. I will concede that the gap is not as large where piercing damage is concerned, but it should still be in Steve's favor (at least, as of TWS anyway...)

Again, you are assuming the best case scenario for Cap. Cap is not avoiding early arrow shots like Oliver was. As for pain tolerance, Oliver was stabbed almost in his spine and he was fine a few seconds later.

When did the spine stab happen? Because a stab to the spine ought to have been fatal.

@rbt said:

He hit Bronze Tiger once, and then BT had his attentions focused on Roy. Roy then hit him hard enough to send him spiraling through the air and kept hitting him (somehow not able to kill him due to PIS), before Oliver stepped in and calmed him. He one-shot Bronze Tiger fair and square. BT was facing him down, and Roy sent him spinning through the air with a punch.

He tackled BT, and before BT could even look at him properly, he uppercut him and that basically ended the fight. Not really a fair one.

But, if Bronze Tiger's reflexes are as good as we're suggesting, then surely that split-second of seeing Roy would have been sufficient time to react, no? After all, arrows are smaller and faster than an angsty teen in a hoodie, so if he can perceive that in time to respond, then I think even a few moments of looking at Roy would or should have been enough.

@rbt said:

And, punching a hole in metal may be a better strength feat on Roy's end, but it's the only better one he has. Cap can match just about everything else as of Avengers (and he does surpass him entirely by the time of TWS/AoU/CW). Like I said, even if we accept that Cap is weaker than Roy as of The Avengers, I still think he's strong enough to beat Bronze Tiger easily. All it would take is a few hits, and claws Turner may have, but Cap has a shield to protect himself. Any iteration of MCU Cap should be able to handle Bronze Tiger except for maybe TFA, and even that version should have a chance. Cap as of TWS onwards stomps Bronze Tiger.

None of Cap's striking feats trump that of Roy's as of yet. And you are severely underrating BT here. He was literally blitzing Oliver.

1) Incorrect; tearing apart Ultron sentries that were at worst reinforced steel and at best titanium, and throwing Ultron into a concrete pillar with enough force to take out a good chunk of it supersede Roy's feats. Also damaging parts of Iron Man and War Machine's armor.

2) "Not striking feats" is to me a rubbish argument. If someone can lift up so much weight, there is no reason at all to think they can't put the same kind of force into their blows, or at least a good percentage. Otherwise, why bother mentioning weight-lifting feats? For that matter, if we're going to argue that weightlifting is not applicable to striking, then I can just as easily claim that reflexes are not applicable to combat speed, especially considering that for all of their arrow timing the Arrowverse characters never 1) fight in a blur, 2) speed-blitz common thugs that they should be able to, or 3) appear at all superhumanly or particularly fast. Except, people treat how fast you can dodge as proof of combat speed anyway. Well then, if one can lift a certain amount of weight with their hands and arms, the idea that none of that strength can be called upon for melee and is thus irrelevant, is silly.

3) No, I think I'm rating BT just fine. He's S2 Arrow's equal in H2H, which is impressive. He's an arrow-timer, which is all well and good. As for his blitzing Oliver, that's rather contradicted by the idea that he can only stalemate him. If he's fast enough to blitz, why can Oliver fight him as an equal? That makes no sense. So I totally disregard that. Bronze Tiger is Arrow's equal, not superior.

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#49 Posted by RBT (27214 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

Chitauri and Hydra troop laser-blasts?

Point out an instance of Cap reacting to them after they have been fired. He aim blocks/dodges.

And here's the funny thing about ABC logic: people assume that anyone whose fought any arrow-timer in Arrow, or anyone whose ever fought Arrow, is an awesome fighter. Everyone from Maseo to Nyssa to Al-Owal is considered a master H2H fighter because they lost to Arrow.

If somebody says that then they are wrong. Fighting an arrow timer does not make you an arrow timer.

Al Owal beat up Sara, Maseo pretty much defeated Tatsu and Nyssa had a slight upperhand on Oliver their first fight. There's a lot more to them loosing to Oliver.

Well, in that case, I think I'm totally right to say that fighting evenly with an arrow-timer puts Cap at the same level of reflexes. No reason why it wouldn't. I didn't see Black Panther dancing circles around him, I didn't see him moving so fast Cap couldn't keep up, I didn't see him speed-blitzing, etc. No, I think it's safe to say that Cap as of Civil War is an arrow-timer and thus perfectly capable of keeping pace with anybody in the Arrowverse.

You're not and it doesn't.

Never said that. I said that Black Panther never once showed overwhelmingly better speed than Captain America despite being an arrow-timer, and so I have no reason to think that he is exponentially faster. Captain America is at arrow-timer speed/reflexes level, at least of Civil War. You want to argue he's not as of TFA? Fair enough. But as of Civil War, he is in fact in that speed/reflexes range, making the idea that any random person in the Arrowverse is faster than him ridiculous (although honestly, it was always ridiculous).

Also, when you consider that Panther has held his own against Winter Soldier just as convincingly as Captain America has, yeah, I am inclined to think the two are in each-other's range in all fields, reflexes included.

This is full with ABC logic. Going by that logic, all of comic Cass' and Slade's feat are of Bruce, since he fought both on equal ground.

When did the spine stab happen? Because a stab to the spine ought to have been fatal.

Near spine. Lady Cop in some 4th season episode.

But, if Bronze Tiger's reflexes are as good as we're suggesting, then surely that split-second of seeing Roy would have been sufficient time to react, no? After all, arrows are smaller and faster than an angsty teen in a hoodie, so if he can perceive that in time to respond, then I think even a few moments of looking at Roy would or should have been enough.

Yeah, it'd have if he hadn't been tackled by a guy with super strength. Nice attempt at lowballing though.

Incorrect; tearing apart Ultron sentries that were at worst reinforced steel and at best titanium, and throwing Ultron into a concrete pillar with enough force to take out a good chunk of it supersede Roy's feats. Also damaging parts of Iron Man and War Machine's armor.

You mean the same Ultron Sentries that Fury was able to stab a random chunk of metal into? Also, not a striking feat. Same with Ultron one.

Give me an instance were Steve damaged War Machine or Tony with his punches or kicks. No shield.

Not striking feats" is to me a rubbish argument. If someone can lift up so much weight, there is no reason at all to think they can't put the same kind of force into their blows, or at least a good percentage. Otherwise, why bother mentioning weight-lifting feats? For that matter, if we're going to argue that weightlifting is not applicable to striking, then I can just as easily claim that reflexes are not applicable to combat speed, especially considering that for all of their arrow timing the Arrowverse characters never 1) fight in a blur, 2) speed-blitz common thugs that they should be able to, or 3) appear at all superhumanly or particularly fast. Except, people treat how fast you can dodge as proof of combat speed anyway. Well then, if one can lift a certain amount of weight with their hands and arms, the idea that none of that strength can be called upon for melee and is thus irrelevant, is silly.

I agree with some extent to this. Lifting feats and striking feats do go hand in hand, but only if the characters have same level of speed. Speed is a huge factor in punching. Its completely possible that Cap can lift more than Slade or Roy can, but they can hit harder because of their superior speed.

No, I think I'm rating BT just fine. He's S2 Arrow's equal in H2H, which is impressive. He's an arrow-timer, which is all well and good. As for his blitzing Oliver, that's rather contradicted by the idea that he can only stalemate him. If he's fast enough to blitz, why can Oliver fight him as an equal? That makes no sense. So I totally disregard that. Bronze Tiger is Arrow's equal, not superior.

Because Oliver was able to adapt quickly to BT's tactics. Watch their fight in the warehouse. BT was pretty much a blur and was stabbing Oliver right and left. Until Oliver figured out where BP was and spammed arrows force BP to deflect them and the moment an opening appeared, he shot a taser arrow. Oliver couldn't deal with him in h2h. That's why he had to resort to using his gear.

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#50 Posted by Arcus1 (27672 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Incorrect; tearing apart Ultron sentries that were at worst reinforced steel and at best titanium, and throwing Ultron into a concrete pillar with enough force to take out a good chunk of it supersede Roy's feats. Also damaging parts of Iron Man and War Machine's armor.

You mean the same Ultron Sentries that Fury was able to stab a random chunk of metal into? Also, not a striking feat. Same with Ultron one.

Give me an instance were Steve damaged War Machine or Tony with his punches or kicks. No shield.

The Ultron bot Fury stabbed was already damaged, had been shot down by Rhodey/Tony, then shot more by Maria Hill

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As for striking feats against the Ultron bots

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