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#1 Posted by weebbicboi (1416 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: In-Character

R2: Bloodlusted

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#2 Posted by DoctorHulk (111 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence stomps her yoyo

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#3 Edited by Yamiyodare (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

Monitor-Mind The Overvoid > The Presence = Featherine Augustus Aurora

Can Featherine Augustus Aurora clear / solo DC comics? NO.

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#4 Posted by Soratoumiga (3134 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. Without Vertigo characters of course.

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#5 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine). She can. DC's Composite Cosmology has evolved so large, it's equal to Umineko for what we know of it for sure (the Source Wall Omniverse) and we don't know yet how much larger it could be outside the Dark Multiverse.

Besides that, there are characters in DC that Featherine cannot destroy outright. Pralaya will survive Featherine absolutely given that she is an aspect of the Presence, but Pralaya will be able to be sealed outside of Umineko's verse. Also, IMO, she stalemates WF Mxy since WF Mxy wiped out everything in DC, including Hypertime that tied all of DC's Cosmology into a canon.

Michael and Lucifer if together still have a serious chance of actually equaling Featherine (each of them) on their own grounds. But that can only happen if Vertigo writers closely aligned with Matteis and Morrison better which I see a small chance of happening. But it's happening a little given that Sandman is tying in with DC Rebirth. At the moment, Michael and Lucifer are baseline Multiversal beings who are probably maybe maybe might be implied as Infinite Dimensional due to a vague scan of infinite layers seen from the perspective of Lucifer and Sandman Presence on the Void. Eh. But just merely being above Infinite Hierarchies is not enough to beat Featherine.

There are very very teeny tiny little number of characters in fiction that Featherine cannot kill or abstractly/metaphysically warp against.

It's also worth noting, that according to JM De Matteis's stories, the Presence is not the same as the Creator. And is implied to predate the Creator. There appears to be a demiurgic God in Matteis's writings. Because even the Void beyond all Voids that are so large, they contain the Dark Multiverse and Source Wall Multiverse (both are massively above Infinite-D Constructs) are just a THOUGHT to the JMD Presence.

Normal Spectre is nothing to Featherine. I only listed Oversoul Spectre because he's backed up by the Presence. It's also worth noting that the JMD Presence is literally Omnipotent, but when I argue using that perspective of the Presence, I only use his Cosmology feats into play. And pretend that the tweet of JM De Matteis (the only writer of Main DCU who confirms that DC is Infinite-D) saying the Presence as being confirmed Omnipotent and beyond all as non-existing.

In other words, if you remove all the variously stated as Omnipotents, Omnipotent Proxies, only Monitor Mind can beat Featherine IMO. With only the crazily insane outlier WF Mxy and the potentially interpreted Lucifer and Michael left to actually equalize or survive her. Yes, Feathers is that strong.

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#6 Edited by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Most absolutely not. There are way too many powerful characters in DC.

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#7 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine). She can. DC's Composite Cosmology has evolved so large, it's equal to Umineko for what we know of it for sure (the Source Wall Omniverse) and we don't know yet how much larger it could be outside the Dark Multiverse.

Besides that, there are characters in DC that Featherine cannot destroy outright. Pralaya will survive Featherine absolutely given that she is an aspect of the Presence, but Pralaya will be able to be sealed outside of Umineko's verse. Also, IMO, she stalemates WF Mxy since WF Mxy wiped out everything in DC, including Hypertime that tied all of DC's Cosmology into a canon.

Michael and Lucifer if together still have a serious chance of actually equaling Featherine (each of them) on their own grounds. But that can only happen if Vertigo writers closely aligned with Matteis and Morrison better which I see a small chance of happening. But it's happening a little given that Sandman is tying in with DC Rebirth. At the moment, Michael and Lucifer are baseline Multiversal beings who are probably maybe maybe might be implied as Infinite Dimensional due to a vague scan of infinite layers seen from the perspective of Lucifer and Sandman Presence on the Void. Eh. But just merely being above Infinite Hierarchies is not enough to beat Featherine.

There are very very teeny tiny little number of characters in fiction that Featherine cannot kill or abstractly/metaphysically warp against.

It's also worth noting, that according to JM De Matteis's stories, the Presence is not the same as the Creator. And is implied to predate the Creator. There appears to be a demiurgic God in Matteis's writings. Because even the Void beyond all Voids that are so large, they contain the Dark Multiverse and Source Wall Multiverse (both are massively above Infinite-D Constructs) are just a THOUGHT to the JMD Presence.

Normal Spectre is nothing to Featherine. I only listed Oversoul Spectre because he's backed up by the Presence. It's also worth noting that the JMD Presence is literally Omnipotent, but when I argue using that perspective of the Presence, I only use his Cosmology feats into play. And pretend that the tweet of JM De Matteis (the only writer of Main DCU who confirms that DC is Infinite-D) saying the Presence as being confirmed Omnipotent and beyond all as non-existing.

In other words, if you remove all the variously stated as Omnipotents, Omnipotent Proxies, only Monitor Mind can beat Featherine IMO. With only the crazily insane outlier WF Mxy and the potentially interpreted Lucifer and Michael left to actually equalize or survive her. Yes, Feathers is that strong.

Sungsam I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of your post.

I do agree that DC's cosmology has evolved significantly. I do, however, disagree with Pralaya being an aspect of the Presence. I would consider something like the Great Evil Beast to be an aspect of the Presence. Pralaya seems more like a cosmic entity, such as Eternity and Infinity in Marvel. She exists as a mandatory force to balance creation, not as an aspect of the Presence. This is my opinion, however, and is probably wrong (knowing me).

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer being only multiversal. I believe that we can all agree that the Presence created Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel before time and existence itself was created. Michael and Lucifer were given the specific task of creating everything out of nothingness (Michael's job) and warping this said matter into shape and form (Lucifer's job). Michael's demiurgic power shaped everything in DC and Lucifer's will gave form to it. As a result of this, I believe it is safe to say that however big DC's cosmology gets in size (whether it be a multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, infinite omniverses, etc.) Michael and Lucifer have infinite control over it, and everything within it. As a result, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer's power. Theoretically speaking, as Michael and Lucifer created everything, that means that they would have created World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite, who are so strong that they left the pages of the comic and entered the "real world," meaning Michael and Lucifer have power that could at least rival World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite. This is an argument for another time, however. The primary point I want to make (in this post) is that Michael and Lucifer's power should be equivalent to the entirety of DC.

Technically speaking: Lucifer + Michael = all of DC (every single aspect of it, minus the Presence [who created both of them]).

Here are some scans to support my claims.

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#8 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine). She can. DC's Composite Cosmology has evolved so large, it's equal to Umineko for what we know of it for sure (the Source Wall Omniverse) and we don't know yet how much larger it could be outside the Dark Multiverse.

Besides that, there are characters in DC that Featherine cannot destroy outright. Pralaya will survive Featherine absolutely given that she is an aspect of the Presence, but Pralaya will be able to be sealed outside of Umineko's verse. Also, IMO, she stalemates WF Mxy since WF Mxy wiped out everything in DC, including Hypertime that tied all of DC's Cosmology into a canon.

Michael and Lucifer if together still have a serious chance of actually equaling Featherine (each of them) on their own grounds. But that can only happen if Vertigo writers closely aligned with Matteis and Morrison better which I see a small chance of happening. But it's happening a little given that Sandman is tying in with DC Rebirth. At the moment, Michael and Lucifer are baseline Multiversal beings who are probably maybe maybe might be implied as Infinite Dimensional due to a vague scan of infinite layers seen from the perspective of Lucifer and Sandman Presence on the Void. Eh. But just merely being above Infinite Hierarchies is not enough to beat Featherine.

There are very very teeny tiny little number of characters in fiction that Featherine cannot kill or abstractly/metaphysically warp against.

It's also worth noting, that according to JM De Matteis's stories, the Presence is not the same as the Creator. And is implied to predate the Creator. There appears to be a demiurgic God in Matteis's writings. Because even the Void beyond all Voids that are so large, they contain the Dark Multiverse and Source Wall Multiverse (both are massively above Infinite-D Constructs) are just a THOUGHT to the JMD Presence.

Normal Spectre is nothing to Featherine. I only listed Oversoul Spectre because he's backed up by the Presence. It's also worth noting that the JMD Presence is literally Omnipotent, but when I argue using that perspective of the Presence, I only use his Cosmology feats into play. And pretend that the tweet of JM De Matteis (the only writer of Main DCU who confirms that DC is Infinite-D) saying the Presence as being confirmed Omnipotent and beyond all as non-existing.

In other words, if you remove all the variously stated as Omnipotents, Omnipotent Proxies, only Monitor Mind can beat Featherine IMO. With only the crazily insane outlier WF Mxy and the potentially interpreted Lucifer and Michael left to actually equalize or survive her. Yes, Feathers is that strong.

Sungsam I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of your post.

I do agree that DC's cosmology has evolved significantly. I do, however, disagree with Pralaya being an aspect of the Presence. I would consider something like the Great Evil Beast to be an aspect of the Presence. Pralaya seems more like a cosmic entity, such as Eternity and Infinity in Marvel. She exists as a mandatory force to balance creation, not as an aspect of the Presence. This is my opinion, however, and is probably wrong (knowing me).

There are multiple sources from multiple writers of DC who describe DC's Cosmology. No matter how many contradictions there, there is something that Morrison, Gaiman, Matteis and Snyder and etc. and etc. all have in common.

Lucifer, Michael, Destiny, Death, Dream, Spectre, Mandrakk, TR Supes, Pralaya and etc. are all entities made of THOUGHTS, that can exist independent of laws of creation. DC has a common motif where extremely powerful entities are in fact formless beings defined by flaws. Some of them, change depending on the person that is looking at them.

However, I have a reason why I believe Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence. You see, Pralaya is not a creation or Morrison nor Gaiman. She is a creation of JM De Matteis who also writes a lot about the Presence, Spectre and is one of the three writers who say that DC has infinite levels of reality.

This is JM De Matteis answering a question in regards to Pralaya.

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Matteis's own words. Pralaya is an ASPECT of Omnipotence. Not Omnipotent, but part of it. Who is this Omnipotent being?

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According to Matteis who is also a DC Cosmologist like Carey and Gaiman and Morrison.

Presence = Omnipotent.

Pralaya = Aspect of Omnipotence.

Therefore Pralaya is one of the many aspects of the Presence who is Omnipotence itself. Also this scan below from Justice League Dark.

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God's Unconscious. An implied title.

It's also worth noting that Matteis sometimes implies that the Presence and the "Creator" are not the same thing. That the Presence predates and is more powerful than the Void beyond all Voids and the Creator as well. Perhaps the Presence created the Creator.

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer being only multiversal. I believe that we can all agree that the Presence created Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel before time and existence itself was created. Michael and Lucifer were given the specific task of creating everything out of nothingness (Michael's job) and warping this said matter into shape and form (Lucifer's job). Michael's demiurgic power shaped everything in DC and Lucifer's will gave form to it. As a result of this, I believe it is safe to say that however big DC's cosmology gets in size (whether it be a multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, infinite omniverses, etc.) Michael and Lucifer have infinite control over it, and everything within it. As a result, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer's power. Theoretically speaking, as Michael and Lucifer created everything, that means that they would have created World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite, who are so strong that they left the pages of the comic and entered the "real world," meaning Michael and Lucifer have power that could at least rival World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite. This is an argument for another time, however. The primary point I want to make (in this post) is that Michael and Lucifer's power should be equivalent to the entirety of DC.

Technically speaking: Lucifer + Michael = all of DC (every single aspect of it, minus the Presence [who created both of them]).

Here are some scans to support my claims.

Ah, you mean that?

Never mind, I already discussed this with @etriel I agree that Michael and Lucifer are massively above Infinite Dimensional, Omniversal, Metaversal and etc. since beings like the Endless are massively above it.

However, I want to update the DC Cosmology thread because I have a theory that the Presence we see in Sandman, Lucifer and etc. are merely manifestations of the Presence.

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#9 Edited by zgtfreak (2056 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine).

To be honest, looking over some of Ovy's scans and my own, the entire Witch Domain is completely above the already infinite-D Human Domain in every way, and the Creator Domain (where Aurora is) is infinitely above all of the infinite-D Witch Domain. I don't think even JMD Presence can stand up to that, unless we count omnipotence; omnipotent Presence blinks of course.

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#10 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine).

To be honest, looking over some of Ovy's scans and my own, the entire Witch Domain is completely above the already infinite-D Human Domain in every way, and the Creator Domain (where Aurora is) is infinitely above all of the infinite-D Witch Domain. I don't think even JMD Presence can stand up to that (unless we count omnipotence).

outervoid presence > void beyond all voids ( overvoid and pralaya and etc ) > dark multiverse > source wall > monitor sphere > limbo > sphere of the gods that is infinite dimensional and grows a new universe with every dead soul in heaven and hell from the physical multiverse > physical multiverse of infinite generations of megaversers expanding and multiplying infinitely and instantly > infinitely expanding universes (confirmed in jl annual that universes in dc infinitely expand).

umineko to you guys is just creator domain > witches domain > infinite dimensions with quantum expansion as well infinitely instantly

even if i agreed it is infinite-d. sorry. you seem to be under the impression that dc is a normal infinite dimension verse. its not. the verse of umineko by your criterias is just two tiers above infinite-d.

from what we know. dc is at least 4 tiers above infinite d with implied more unknown creations beyond it.

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#11 Edited by AbigorGodofWar (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: @zgtfreak: I can understand where sumgsam is coming from and I agree about the vertigo characters standings, but I'm in need of some education here zgtfreak. How is Aurora above the witch domain by that far?

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#12 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: You missed something.

Destiny's Book contains the Source Wall Creation so that is another level, you should have put it between the Source Wall and the Dark Multiverse in size and scale since the Source Wall is just a fish bowl to the infinite vastness of the Dark Multiverse.

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#13 Posted by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

@etriel: You missed something.

Destiny's Book contains the Source Wall Creation so that is another level, you should have put it between the Source Wall and the Dark Multiverse in size and scale since the Source Wall is just a fish bowl to the infinite vastness of the Dark Multiverse.

the problem is that dream (though you disagree) embodies the dark multiverse in the aspect of the subconcious. and dream is weaker than destiny. i would have tought that destiny's containment over extra-cosmological bodies is more abstract than that.

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#14 Posted by zgtfreak (2056 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Damn... That's extremely broken. Sungsam gave me a bit of info on it before, but four tiers above infinite-D? Makes me wonder if any officially published fiction/non fanfiction has a bigger cosmology than DC's highest incarnation.

@abigorgodofwar

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@sungsamDestiny's Book contains the Source Wall Creation so that is another level, you should have put it between the Source Wall and the Dark Multiverse in size and scale since the Source Wall is just a fish bowl to the infinite vastness of the Dark Multiverse.

So five tiers above infinite-D? That's insane. Can you think of any fiction with a higher cosmology than this version of DC?

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#15 Posted by AbigorGodofWar (274 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio
@zgtfreak said:

So five tiers above infinite-D? That's insane. Can you think of any fiction with a higher cosmology than this version of DC?

Here is the thing Z.

Featherine still technically can wipe out DC's characters. She can still wipe out the Presence.

It is a verse reinterpreted in structure by 10 different writers that contradict one another 1/3rd of the ways and agrees 2/3rds the next half the time. Here is your problem with this thread. Morrison stated that DC is just an M Theory Multiverse. If we used the Morrison Cosmology only, she can wipe it out.

The problem is that this thread said can Featherine solo DC Comics? There was no specification. This implies that we are forced to take every aspect of DC publications regardless of writer. And every piece of information and imagination that formed from that series of publications.

It did not say Morrison Cosmology or something it said DC. That is the issue.

Matteis said that the God Realm has Infinite Dimensions above the freaking afterlife? Okay.

Some PS N52 writer said the Afterlife has a Universe from the Physical Universe for every soul? Okay.

Universes in DC multiply infinitely and endlessly according to Dan Didio? Okay.

Source Wall, Monitor Sphere and Limbo is above the God Realm according to Morrison? Morrison never said the God Realm is Infinite-D in his view, but it is smaller than Limbo by abstract difference. Okay.

Snyder said the Dark Multiverse is an infinite vastness compared to the Source Wall? And that there are unknown more Multiverses besides the Dark Multiverses outside to the Source Wall? Snyder doesn't know what Infinite-D is unlike Matteis, but okay.

Matteis's Cosmology on its own is just 1-2 Tiers above Infinite-D, without the Limbo, Monitor Sphere and Destiny Book structural additional inserts from the Morrisonid-Snyder and Gaiman insert cosmology sandwiching between the God Verse and the Void and the N52 PS Afterlife Multiverse upgrade that Matteis doesn't know about, and doesn't really care about when he was asked about it.

Because these writers also say different things about the same structure copyright.

By doing this, you are Compositing DC's Cosmology from different writers who don't really care about one another, and makes the Verse extremely massive to the perspectives of DC Cosmologists like myself.

Fighting DC is both easy to fodderize against, and dangerous. It is a verse where Universe level characters can go anywhere from being Universe level to OMFG makes Beyonder look like a bitch level. And both interpretations are just as good depending on your subjective definition of what makes canon in a multi-authorial verse.

The problem is that anyone can make a thread saying "Oh we scale to Composite DC Cosmology" then those who hate DC can just say "Oh we just use Morrison's Cosmology" that is why DC threads should be banned IMO.

DC is a special and unique verse. Not only that, it's still evolving. We have a new Goddess who can potentially surpass Lucifer, Michael and the Endless and the Monitors in power who are all several Infinite-D+ entities to the Total DC Cosmology.

Not only that, it's poised to get stronger. The only reason why Snyder is constantly using "Infinite Multiverses" is because I hear some fans liked to introduce battle forum logic to DC writers on the twitter about this stuff, which steers their imaginations sometimes.

Maybe if we were like, if Featherine can solo Morrisonid DC, that would be better.

Because though DC is full of contradictions in structure, all these contradictions are still canon to one another VIA Hypertime that is stated to make everything canon, even Elseworlds. Stupid this is? Yes it is, but if you fight a stupid verse, you get stupid answers. That's how.

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#17 Posted by CyberpunkCop (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

Full power Elain Great Evil Beast and the Presence beat her

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#18 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: Damn... That's extremely broken. Sungsam gave me a bit of info on it before, but four tiers above infinite-D?

thats because dc cosmologists like sungsam and i were under fire by the monitor wankers on this forum who kept using matteis's number of dc's dimensions but ignored the fact that matteis stated the presence was the strongest because they cannot accept that presence would shit all over mandrakk and cosmic armor superman and kept on hop hogging morrison only when it was convenient to them.

after i successfully crushed daxnovu the monitor wanker. we could go back to interpreting dc normally again.

the only reason why dc is this strong is because of sheer luck. no dc writer alive thinks that dc is this strong. but when you merge their ideas of many solo writers contributing to dc. it really makes even your highballed umineko look like twilight in power by comparison. even kilgpmtkra knew that dc was this strong.

me? i was a former dbz wanker. so i really dont care about this manga vs comics non sense.

as for dc. i dont really compeltely agree with sung on how big dc is. he likes to speculate that the dark multiverse and the unknown cosmologise are not the same while i say they are. for one.

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: Makes me wonder if any officially published fiction/non fanfiction has a bigger cosmology than DC's highest incarnation.

sungsam is the writer of a verse known as the phdverse which is not a fanfiction. it was once seen on his deviantart. his verse has a lot of similarities to dc, lovecraft, umineko and warhammer 40k.

there are some weird stories there like japan winning world war 2 via summoning japanese gods and whatever for example. and jewish people can who destroy infinite dimensional multiverses. lmfao. you can go ask him.

there are characters there he has that are like featherine like a character he named monad who is a cyclops and is the prime minister of the omniverse and beyond and a race of above-infinite-d gods known as watchers.

@sungsam also wrote a race of above-infinite-d gods known as the dreadknought gods who are basically inspired by warhammer space marines and a race of all-male infinite-d gods who regularly fight eldritch goddesses on an every day basis and suffer infinite casualities all the time in their wars.

this was sungs main inspiration for being on this forum.

where does it say there that the human world is infinited?

relax. i agree that umineko is infinite d now since sungsam convinced me using his arguments about quantum mechanics. but i dont see it in that scan.

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#19 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7694 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Lol.

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#20 Posted by utkanflash (2399 posts) - - Show Bio

NO !

Thnx to Top 10-15 concepts & Characters of DC she cant do that.

Source and anything above Source kinda make this acheivement impossible for Featherine.

She could solo Morrison's vision. Which is weaker and accessable, cheap version of DC Cosmology. But in Vertigo or old core DC Comics perspective. Nope She cant.

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#21 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17905 posts) - - Show Bio

No single character can take on either the DC or Marvel. I saved you some time, you're welcome.

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#22 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. The Outer-Void Presence is literally equivalent to Umineko's Creator regardless. Both Omnipotent beings completely abstractly transcendent to Absolute Infinity. That should have already addressed that it wasn't possible from the start. Umineko at a whole, at best just stalemates Total DC/Vertigo. And Feathers can't do it.

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#23 Edited by zgtfreak (2056 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Well it being a composite cosmology is extremely disappointing, since I don't count that as legit.

Well I made a little post on this spite thread here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/willard-h-wright-and-dlanor-a-knox-when-they-cry-r-2001910/ < Most of it is Ovy7's scans that you've seen, plus other scans you've seen, but overall I explain why I think the Human Domain is infinite-D. There may be some stuff missing since it was a quick post. We see that the Human Domain has the same type of ladder, and since it acts and works the same as the one in the Witches Domain, I see no reason to believe why it is different in size either (infinite).

me? i was a former dbz wanker. so i really dont care about this manga vs comics non sense.

We have similar origins. While I wasn't a wanker, I did think DB soloed 99% of fiction at the time, but then realized that they are pretty fodder. I quit the entire community when Super butchered the franchise and brought in a bunch of eight year old wankers.

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#24 Posted by GrandTOAA (934 posts) - - Show Bio

WOw, reading all this, I didn't know how overpowered D.C were compared to MArvel. What is outer-void?

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#25 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandtoaa said:

WOw, reading all this, I didn't know how overpowered D.C were compared to MArvel. What is outer-void?

The Presence contains the Void beyond all Voids inside him in Matteis's stories, and it's been confirmed that there are Infinite Multiverses the size of the Main DC Multiverse (which is Infinite Dimensional according to 3-4 writers) outside the Main DCM Source Wall as of the Justice League Annual. That's why the Presence is called that.

Outer-Void Presence is the catch word for the True Presence of formless perfection of absolute infinity. True Omnpotence.

Yeah, DC is overpowered when you look at the cosmology regardless of writer origin and not care on who wrote what, so long as Hypertime considers everything canon. But a lot of people associated with me on this forum tend to push the Composite DC Cosmology narrative like Bdello, Juliusz, Etriel and Rijehu, though I find it sometimes.... shaky.

Including even Kilgpmtkra had no problem with it either from what I know since he wanted me to make an entire thread on using multi-source DC Cosmology, except instead I just sometimes updated the currently existing DC Cosmology thread.

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#26 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine). She can. DC's Composite Cosmology has evolved so large, it's equal to Umineko for what we know of it for sure (the Source Wall Omniverse) and we don't know yet how much larger it could be outside the Dark Multiverse.

Besides that, there are characters in DC that Featherine cannot destroy outright. Pralaya will survive Featherine absolutely given that she is an aspect of the Presence, but Pralaya will be able to be sealed outside of Umineko's verse. Also, IMO, she stalemates WF Mxy since WF Mxy wiped out everything in DC, including Hypertime that tied all of DC's Cosmology into a canon.

Michael and Lucifer if together still have a serious chance of actually equaling Featherine (each of them) on their own grounds. But that can only happen if Vertigo writers closely aligned with Matteis and Morrison better which I see a small chance of happening. But it's happening a little given that Sandman is tying in with DC Rebirth. At the moment, Michael and Lucifer are baseline Multiversal beings who are probably maybe maybe might be implied as Infinite Dimensional due to a vague scan of infinite layers seen from the perspective of Lucifer and Sandman Presence on the Void. Eh. But just merely being above Infinite Hierarchies is not enough to beat Featherine.

There are very very teeny tiny little number of characters in fiction that Featherine cannot kill or abstractly/metaphysically warp against.

It's also worth noting, that according to JM De Matteis's stories, the Presence is not the same as the Creator. And is implied to predate the Creator. There appears to be a demiurgic God in Matteis's writings. Because even the Void beyond all Voids that are so large, they contain the Dark Multiverse and Source Wall Multiverse (both are massively above Infinite-D Constructs) are just a THOUGHT to the JMD Presence.

Normal Spectre is nothing to Featherine. I only listed Oversoul Spectre because he's backed up by the Presence. It's also worth noting that the JMD Presence is literally Omnipotent, but when I argue using that perspective of the Presence, I only use his Cosmology feats into play. And pretend that the tweet of JM De Matteis (the only writer of Main DCU who confirms that DC is Infinite-D) saying the Presence as being confirmed Omnipotent and beyond all as non-existing.

In other words, if you remove all the variously stated as Omnipotents, Omnipotent Proxies, only Monitor Mind can beat Featherine IMO. With only the crazily insane outlier WF Mxy and the potentially interpreted Lucifer and Michael left to actually equalize or survive her. Yes, Feathers is that strong.

Sungsam I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of your post.

I do agree that DC's cosmology has evolved significantly. I do, however, disagree with Pralaya being an aspect of the Presence. I would consider something like the Great Evil Beast to be an aspect of the Presence. Pralaya seems more like a cosmic entity, such as Eternity and Infinity in Marvel. She exists as a mandatory force to balance creation, not as an aspect of the Presence. This is my opinion, however, and is probably wrong (knowing me).

There are multiple sources from multiple writers of DC who describe DC's Cosmology. No matter how many contradictions there, there is something that Morrison, Gaiman, Matteis and Snyder and etc. and etc. all have in common.

Lucifer, Michael, Destiny, Death, Dream, Spectre, Mandrakk, TR Supes, Pralaya and etc. are all entities made of THOUGHTS, that can exist independent of laws of creation. DC has a common motif where extremely powerful entities are in fact formless beings defined by flaws. Some of them, change depending on the person that is looking at them.

However, I have a reason why I believe Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence. You see, Pralaya is not a creation or Morrison nor Gaiman. She is a creation of JM De Matteis who also writes a lot about the Presence, Spectre and is one of the three writers who say that DC has infinite levels of reality.

This is JM De Matteis answering a question in regards to Pralaya.

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Matteis's own words. Pralaya is an ASPECT of Omnipotence. Not Omnipotent, but part of it. Who is this Omnipotent being?

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According to Matteis who is also a DC Cosmologist like Carey and Gaiman and Morrison.

Presence = Omnipotent.

Pralaya = Aspect of Omnipotence.

Therefore Pralaya is one of the many aspects of the Presence who is Omnipotence itself. Also this scan below from Justice League Dark.

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God's Unconscious. An implied title.

It's also worth noting that Matteis sometimes implies that the Presence and the "Creator" are not the same thing. That the Presence predates and is more powerful than the Void beyond all Voids and the Creator as well. Perhaps the Presence created the Creator.

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer being only multiversal. I believe that we can all agree that the Presence created Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel before time and existence itself was created. Michael and Lucifer were given the specific task of creating everything out of nothingness (Michael's job) and warping this said matter into shape and form (Lucifer's job). Michael's demiurgic power shaped everything in DC and Lucifer's will gave form to it. As a result of this, I believe it is safe to say that however big DC's cosmology gets in size (whether it be a multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, infinite omniverses, etc.) Michael and Lucifer have infinite control over it, and everything within it. As a result, I disagree with your assessment of Michael and Lucifer's power. Theoretically speaking, as Michael and Lucifer created everything, that means that they would have created World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite, who are so strong that they left the pages of the comic and entered the "real world," meaning Michael and Lucifer have power that could at least rival World's Funnest Mxy and Bat-Mite. This is an argument for another time, however. The primary point I want to make (in this post) is that Michael and Lucifer's power should be equivalent to the entirety of DC.

Technically speaking: Lucifer + Michael = all of DC (every single aspect of it, minus the Presence [who created both of them]).

Here are some scans to support my claims.

Ah, you mean that?

Never mind, I already discussed this with @etriel I agree that Michael and Lucifer are massively above Infinite Dimensional, Omniversal, Metaversal and etc. since beings like the Endless are massively above it.

However, I want to update the DC Cosmology thread because I have a theory that the Presence we see in Sandman, Lucifer and etc. are merely manifestations of the Presence.

The author himself confirmed Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence? Damn... Nevermind then.

Also, I'm glad that @etriel was able to convince you of this :)

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#27 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel said:
@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: If you remove the Outer-Void JMD Presence, Monitor Mind, the Writer, Oversoul Spectre (all of these guys will crush Featherine).

To be honest, looking over some of Ovy's scans and my own, the entire Witch Domain is completely above the already infinite-D Human Domain in every way, and the Creator Domain (where Aurora is) is infinitely above all of the infinite-D Witch Domain. I don't think even JMD Presence can stand up to that (unless we count omnipotence).

outervoid presence > void beyond all voids ( overvoid and pralaya and etc ) > dark multiverse > source wall > monitor sphere > limbo > sphere of the gods that is infinite dimensional and grows a new universe with every dead soul in heaven and hell from the physical multiverse > physical multiverse of infinite generations of megaversers expanding and multiplying infinitely and instantly > infinitely expanding universes (confirmed in jl annual that universes in dc infinitely expand).

umineko to you guys is just creator domain > witches domain > infinite dimensions with quantum expansion as well infinitely instantly

even if i agreed it is infinite-d. sorry. you seem to be under the impression that dc is a normal infinite dimension verse. its not. the verse of umineko by your criterias is just two tiers above infinite-d.

from what we know. dc is at least 4 tiers above infinite d with implied more unknown creations beyond it.

This is well said, do you mind if I use this myself for future debates?

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#28 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

Agreed. The Outer-Void Presence is literally equivalent to Umineko's Creator regardless. Both Omnipotent beings completely abstractly transcendent to Absolute Infinity. That should have already addressed that it wasn't possible from the start. Umineko at a whole, at best just stalemates Total DC/Vertigo. And Feathers can't do it.

This.

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#29 Posted by Danteisterrible (177 posts) - - Show Bio

Manhattan and Mxy takes turns outlining her meta powers as a plot device that never works. And yeah they solo.

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#30 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: Well it being a composite cosmology is extremely disappointing, since I don't count that as legit.

the op's lack of specification makes it legitimate to argue with and for.

when you make a thread "can i clear all of dc" he is literally forcing us to merge every piece of information into one connected canon and we are basically ruling for a connection for every writer. maybe the op @weebbicboi should have isolated this to morrison or snyder. but he didnt.

we didnt want this. we only mean to educate those on how messy dc is so you can avoid debating it.

all ill say for now is that the sphere of the gods is infinite dimensional (in terms of levels of existence. not multiverse family) to 3-4 writers (carey, jenkins and matteis and neil gaiman too if you consider the quantum + wave function hypothesis) and would end at being contained by a book in limbo since limbo breaks time and space down. and the physical quantum multiverse is also infinite layered dimension (to dan didio who is dc's vice president) which would end below the bleed.

and all that is transcended by the archetypal monitor sphere that exists beyond the story of dc comics and comic book limbo. and then the source wall again. which is then contained by destiny's book according to both gaiman and morrison.

then the dark multiverse is larger than that by an infinite magnitude. which is then again outnumbered by infinite more infinite-D^4 multiverses as of 2019. with beings potentially being equal to featherine in each of those places if dc cosmology is totalled.

dc's cosmology is best described as an infinite sized pile of trash. many people (writers throwing their garbage in it in the same place resulting in a massive sized cosmology.) but each of these contributing people do not know how large that pile is. they only know how much they contributed personally. and only the garbage man (us the readers) truly know how dc cosmology is when you look at it from the total perspective when all put together.

the composite dc cosmology is controversial because while it is stupid. it is unavoidable because multiple storylines of dc are currently running that pertain to these multiple different sources of cosmology while still being canon to one another officially for some reason. there is no way to look at dc and decide which one is more legit since it is more complicated than that.

you can argue that only snyder is legit. but snyder constantly references past storylines that ocurred by other writer cosmology information give outs that still technically make it somewhat slitherable to validate a composite model. they all have equal number of problems. all interpretations do.

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#31 Posted by zgtfreak (2056 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Well Aurora definitely isn't soloing a composite DC by any means.

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#32 Edited by Yasindermann (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

When we assume this is composite DC, then she is probaly on par with Morpheus by cosmology feats in my opinion.

Morpheus is bound by an infinite number of dimensions, where each dimensions transcend the main DC metaverse (Double quantum infinite-D) by finite layers and the previous dimension by finite layers.

Aurora transcend one double quantum infinite-D multiverse by one order of infinite.

But Aurora is probaly still stronger than Morpheus, because she has a little bit better feats.

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#33 Edited by deactivated-5cb40c2f93fe2 (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Why do you bump a thread with basically reiterating everything that was just said on this thread? It isnt necessary.

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#34 Edited by deactivated-5cb40c2f93fe2 (19 posts) - - Show Bio

when They cry will always be an "enigma" to me? I was told that the domain of Witches is "Dimensionless" but there is a relation of distance within its own sub-divisable hierarchy. So I do not know how that makes sense at all, since even normal Universes shouldn't have a relationship of distance from one another.

Anyway, Featherine can Get very far i suppose? She wont touch beings like Overvoid, Pralaya and Mother Night, that is for sure as they are too omnilocked and abstract in my opinion.