Cal kestis and cere junda vs Sidious' apprentices where do they stop or do they clear?

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Ieatnettles

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Poll Cal kestis and cere junda vs Sidious' apprentices where do they stop or do they clear? (21 votes)

Round 1: Maul 5%
Round 2: Dooku 62%
Round 3: Vader 19%
Clears 19%

Bonus round: rayvis, bode and Dagan gera join cere and cal to defeat the emperor

CANON ONLY

All fights take place in the geonosian arena

Everyone in their prime

 • 
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Ieatnettles

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I'm reasonably new here how do you do callouts?

Every time I try to do them it doesn't work, but I'm probably just doing them wrong

Thanks

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Ieatnettles

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Guzmania

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r1) i think that in 1v1 this will be a close fight either way, so them ganging up on him will give them the win. cal & cere 9/10

r2) dooku is the superior duelist but i can see cal somewhat surprising him with all the tricks of his own saber, cere could also hold her own but i can also see dooku handling them at the same time if it's sabers only. but this is not a saber fight only so with the force, they can beat him. cal & cere 8/10

r3) vader is their superior in every aspect so they will need perfect teamwork, something that is assured with cal (even if it's mostly game mechanics, cal is shown to be able to combo very well with any type of ally, like merrin and bode), if they pressure him enough before he gets serious (assuming the fighters are in character), vader will have taken enough damage to be less dangerous in his "second phase". cere's showing was quite good against him in JS so with cal (who should be on a similar level, if not then with dark side amp) they can get a hard earned win. cal & cere 6 or 7/10

bonus round) i'm not quite sure to be honest, i'm tempted to say that they can win this but since it's sidious i will say they lose in a good fight, don't wanna rattle some fanboys more than i already did with my opinion on round 3 lol

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Ieatnettles

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@guzmania: I agree

Fanboys will try and rip you to shreds

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Ieatnettles

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Wait so is cal near maul level?

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Guzmania

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#6  Edited By Guzmania

@ieatnettles: i'd say cere is and cal shouldn't be too far off

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Ieatnettles

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Maybe, I was under the impression cal was like, maybe Ashoka season 7 level in Jedi survivor, based on his fight with 9th sister at the start of the game

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Kaore

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Round 1 - Cere solos with high difficulty. Cere wins 5.5/10, team wins 6.5/10.

Round 2 - Dooku picks off Cal quickly, given how he was able to seperate a superior duo both in skill & teamwork-wise in Obi-Wan & Anakin multiple times, and Cere can't beat him alone. He's too skilled of a duelist and comparably, if not more powerful. Dooku wins 8/10.

Round 3 - Vader oneshots Cal and overwhelms Cere pretty quickly.

Bonus - Sidious stomps.

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JediSympathiz3r

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Stops at Dooku. Team gets demolished in bonus round.

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Ieatnettles

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@kaore: So Vader destroys cal and cere even tho he struggles with cere on her own?

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noah_ouellette

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#11  Edited By noah_ouellette

@ieatnettles: I believe the implication from the game is that Vader was mostly toying with her while she was using every ounce of her power and her environment to beat him. Vader didn’t think she would risk destroying the archives and with that he was wrong.

Op: could stop at 1. Depends if maul ragdolls cal or not. Could stop at 2. Depends if Dooku ragdolls Cal or not. Stops at 3.

Bonus: I don’t think they can beat Sidious. Too much of the team gets oneshot by lightning.

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Ieatnettles

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@noah_ouellette: So she basically cheap shotted him. What level would you put cal at? He always seems to be overrated by a bunch of people, probably because of his force speed, but I'd say all force users have force speed like that, it just cant be shown on screen because it wouldn't be entertaining to watch a bunch of blurs fight each other

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mr-yes

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Gets curbstomped at 2 & 3. Probably beats 1, though. Bonus is a slaughter for Palps.

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Eredin12

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@mr-yes said:

Gets curbstomped at 2 & 3. Probably beats 1, though. Bonus is a slaughter for Palps.

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SonOfDarkness

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@mr-yes said:

Gets curbstomped at 2 & 3. Probably beats 1, though. Bonus is a slaughter for Palps.

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Ieatnettles

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@sonofdarkness: @eredin12: @mr-yes: Reasoning? I doubt Vader or dooku could curbstomp, considering cere on her own came close to defeating Vader

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RedSithDisciple

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#17  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@mr-yes said:

Gets curbstomped at 2 & 3. Probably beats 1, though. Bonus is a slaughter for Palps.

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Eredin12

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@ieatnettles: That was Vader much before his prime, he grew much more powerful later on, with ROTJ being his prime and she really only gave him that close fight because she caught him off guard and hit him with Debris, before that he was pretty dominant

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Ieatnettles

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Kaore

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Aristeaus

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@kaore said:

@ieatnettles: Prime Vader >> JS Vader

JS Vader >>>>> ROTS Dooku

OT: Cere solos Dooku any day of the week.

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Kaore

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@Aristeaus: JS Vader that got his ass whooped that same year by Obi-Wan? Doesn't seem >>>>> RoTS Dooku to me.

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SonOfDarkness

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@kaore: Vader was weakened and Kenobi was amped

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Ieatnettles

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Ieatnettles

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Dooku decimated obi wan in all of their fights, and obi wan beat Vader the same year cere lost to Vader. How does that make Vader>>>>>>dooku?

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Ieatnettles

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@sonofdarkness: obi wan was definitely conflicted the whole fight, he nearly cried at one point, that doesn't really scream amped to me

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SonOfDarkness

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#27  Edited By SonOfDarkness

@ieatnettles: except it was explicitly stated in the show by Palpatine that Vader’s feelings weakened him and confirmed by the director and Hayden Christensen. It wasn’t stated anywhere that Obi was weakened. It was actually stated that he was strengthened by the memories of Luke and Leia.

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Ieatnettles

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@sonofdarkness: Both of them were conflicted. Where was it stated that obi wan was amped?

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LightorDark

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Dooku decimated obi wan in all of their fights, and obi wan beat Vader the same year cere lost to Vader. How does that make Vader>>>>>>dooku?

It doesn’t. OWK Vader and Dooku are in reality very similar, with Dooku being better in Sabers, and Vader being stronger in the Force, but Dooku has the overall edge. I’ll explain.

If Pre Hole Kenobi is ROTS Kenobi, which we have no reason to believe otherwise, then Dooku performed undoubtedly better in sabers since Kenobi broke Vader’s stance and forced him to change forms. He also pushed him back the entire fight until he tried to use the force against Vader

Both were above Kenobi in the force. Vader stopped the rock and threw it away. Dooku grabbed Kenobi mid saber duel with Anakin (who is a better duelist than Vader) and threw him across the room while kicking Anakin away.

Vader breaking the ground is not overpowering Kenobi in the force. It’s just a strong force move. Vader throwing rocks on Kenobi isn’t overpowering Kenobi in the force because he caught all of them and held them for an extended period.

So Vader was stronger prehole, but he didn’t ragdoll Kenobi like Dooku did. Vader also wasn’t contending with a second extremely powerful force user and incredible saberist like Dooku was.

With how ROTS Kenobi pushed Vader in sabers, Dooku is a great match for OWK Vader and is quite possibly his superior at that point in time.

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Kaore

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@sonofdarkness: I don't believe he was amped, and why do you think Vader was weakened?

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Ieatnettles

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@lightordark: Yep rots dooku would definitely beat this Vader, saber wise and power with the force. This is an unpopular opinion but I believe Rots Anakin could beat this Vader, as he's slightly superior to dooku. This is a very unpopular opinion, but I believe maul in his prime could beat this Vader as well, as maul was pretty much equal to obi wan in dueling, and has ragdolled obi wan twice with the force, putting him above obi wan in force power. He also was stated to be ahsokas superior post prime (as I have said many times but Vader fans seem to ignore this) so he would give rebels Vader a better fight than ahsoka did while he was post prime. In his prime he would do even better, and rebels Vader is>>OWK Vader. However, if Vader was in his prime he would beat dooku or maul in a decent fight.

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mr-yes

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#32  Edited By mr-yes

@lightordark:

If Pre Hole Kenobi is ROTS Kenobi, which we have no reason to believe otherwise

OWK Obi-Wan is confirmed to be ROTS level in power and rusty in sabers.

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Ieatnettles

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#33  Edited By Ieatnettles

@mr-yes: Yeh, if u look at both fights obi wan is definitely a better duelist in rots than in OWK

But there isn't that much of a skill difference

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SonOfDarkness

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@kaore: because they literally said so in the show and because it was basically confirmed by the director and Hayden Christensen:

“Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because *he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point* . When his mask cracks open at the end, and he says 'You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did,' you realize now he's Vader, now he's earned his 'Imperial March'."

Source: Deborah Chow (Director)

If he’s still half Anakin that means he’s very conflicted which is what Hayden Christensen says:

“He’s still very conflicted with his fallout with the Jedi order and more specifically with Obi wan”

Obi Wan riles him up and brings out the Anakin within which causes a struggle of identity between Anakin and Vader:

“He’s a very complex character, and *there’s an inherent struggle of identity that is always present – there’s inner conflict* .”

"You get to understand the duality a bit better and the *struggle of identity* . I'm very, very proud of that scene."

Source: Hayden Christensen

And thanks to Deborah’s statement we know that the conflict and struggle between Anakin and Vader was greatest *before* he tells Obi Wan that he killed Anakin, so it was during the fight, not after. If he is still half anakin during the fight that means he was extremely conflicted which would weaken his connection to the dark side which is what Palpatine explicitly states in the show:

“Perhaps your feelings for your old master have left you weakened”

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Ieatnettles

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#35  Edited By Ieatnettles

Rots kenobi being stronger than OWK obi wan also further backs the point that dooku>OWK Vader and maul>OWK Vader

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SonOfDarkness

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@ieatnettles: do you have proof that Obi was conflicted during the fight? Check my post above and you’ll see that it’s there’s plenty of actual evidence that Vader was weakened during the fight. There’s no evidence that Obi was during the fight, only him crying afterwards. At the beginning of the fight he is fully determined to destroy Vader, he states “I will do what I must”, then in the hole he gets the amp which strengthens him and is confirmed by SW Insider:

“The memories of Luke and Leia give Obi Wan the strength he needs to escape and overpower Vader”

He doesn’t get emotional until he breaks the mask and sees Anakin’s face.

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McFlicky

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Stops at 2. Dooku should be after vader honestly.

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Ieatnettles

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@sonofdarkness: He cried when he saw Anakin's face, that doesn't mean he wasn't conflicted before that. How trustworthy is SW insider? It sounds like a Vader fanboy was trying to find an excuse for Vader losing to a rusty obi wan.

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SonOfDarkness

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#39  Edited By SonOfDarkness

@ieatnettles: unfortunately that’s pure speculation/headcanon, because there isn’t actually any evidence that Obi-Wan was conflicted, let alone weakened, before that. Maybe he was still a little rusty in sabers but his power was back at ROTS level. And his amp after being buried more than made up for that.

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LightorDark

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@mr-yes said:

@lightordark:

If Pre Hole Kenobi is ROTS Kenobi, which we have no reason to believe otherwise

OWK Obi-Wan is confirmed to be ROTS level in power and rusty in sabers.

He looks rusty if you compare the ROTS fights and compare them to OWK.

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Ieatnettles

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#41  Edited By Ieatnettles

@lightordark: yeh even after his supposed amp he still isn't as impressive as his rots self

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LightorDark

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@lightordark: yeh even after his supposed amp he still isn't as impressive as his rots self

Force wise he is impressive, but Rey performed a similar feat In TLJ.

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Ieatnettles

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@lightordark: Yep, meant saber wise because he seems to swing his saber like 3x times faster in rots than in OWK.

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Ieatnettles

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@lightordark: Is maul obi wans superior in the force or the other way round?

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LightorDark

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@lightordark: Is maul obi wans superior in the force or the other way round?

TPM to the end of TCW, I’d say Maul is stronger. After that, it’s Kenobi.

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Ieatnettles

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Ieatnettles

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Or do u mean just before that?

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Eredin12

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#48  Edited By Eredin12
@mcflicky said:

Stops at 2. Dooku should be after vader honestly.

No Caption Provided

@ieatnettles:

@lightordark: Yep rots dooku would definitely beat this Vader, saber wise and power with the force.

No, he would not? He would have an edge in sabers sure, but he would get stomped in force, Vader 5 years before this period is confirmed to have suppressed Knightfall Vader in force, who was more powerful than Yoda

This is a very unpopular opinion, but I believe maul in his prime could beat this Vader as well,

Maul would get one-shotted with force and beaten even in sabers, as Maul does not scale to ROTS Obi, he fought much weaker versions of Obi( he did fight Ashoka, but Vader one-shotted Ashoka with force ) and the idea that either of those, and especially Maul, who struggles with likes of Vizsla could give ROTJ Vader a decent fight is laughable really.

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Eredin12

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#49  Edited By Eredin12
@kaore said:

@sonofdarkness: I don't believe he was amped, and why do you think Vader was weakened?

Obi is specifically confirmed to be amped:

. Fighting not to be crushed, Kenobi focuses on Luke and Leia, and the memories give him the strength to escape and overpower Vader.

How do you think he went from being massively weaker than Vader in a force ( boulder contest) to overpowering him? And Vader is indeed confirmed to be weakened and heavily conflicted during that fight as Sonofdarkness posted

@lightordark:

If Pre Hole Kenobi is ROTS Kenobi, which we have no reason to believe otherwise, then Dooku performed undoubtedly better in sabers since Kenobi broke Vader’s stance and forced him to change forms. He also pushed him back the entire fight until he tried to use the force against Vader

That is not true, he pushed him back for about 30 seconds with pauses, from about 2:24 to about 2:54( I say with pauses, since at times they were standing in place and dueling) without landing any hit, while Vader, even without the use of force, was able to overcome his guard to the point that he was able to land a clean hit on Obi later at 3:17, something Kenobi never was able to do to Vader

Loading Video...

Vader breaking the ground is not overpowering Kenobi in the force. It’s just a strong force move. Vader throwing rocks on Kenobi isn’t overpowering Kenobi in the force because he caught all of them and held them for an extended period.

Yea, that is not, but throwing a boulder 70 meters away against not only its mass but Obi pushing with all of his power in the opposite direction is overpowering Kenobi in force, effortlessly at that:

No Caption Provided

So Vader was stronger prehole, but he didn’t ragdoll Kenobi like Dooku did.

Because he did not try to do that, he wanted to draw it out and make Obi suffer, he chose to bury him with stones, stones Obi was unable to escape from and would die slowly under them if not for his amp

Dooku is a great match for OWK Vader and is quite possibly his superior at that point in time.

No, he is not, he would get beaten with force

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calclord

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@mcflicky said:

Stops at 2. Dooku should be after vader honestly.

LMAO! Dooku being above Vader is freaking hilarious. Kudos to you, this is the best joke I've heard all day.

OT: Stop at 2.