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#1 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

The Marvel VS. DC Tourney!!!

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It's happening!!!!!!! And the Battle continues onto the Semi Finals!!!....................

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The Scenario!!!!!

Quite simply once again The Grandmaster and Krona are creating havoc on a grand abstract scale

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and just like in this instance, the DC teams outweigh the Marvel in this contest. Grandmaster is on the losing end, and will be back after the final round in a bonus round with cosmicallyaware1 to see what happens!!!!!!

Our heroes and villains from each prospective Universe have been throw into contests to prove their universe is worthy sparing of annihilation. Each team believes that if they win, they will obtain the power item for their universe. The prospective universe teams that obtains the most power items presents them at the end of the tournament and saves the day (or in the villains case, win control!!!)

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What has been presented now and up for grabs???? The Worlogog!!!!

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The Rules of engagement!!!!!

  • NO BFR FOR WIN, however may be used in a battle as an element as applicable. Just not for a win
  • Standard gear as applicable, and this is MORALS OFF characters
  • No Timetravel or Time manipulation
  • No insta-kill one shots (this would include complete mind rape. none of that for the win for you TP users)
  • speaking of TP / Psychic abilities here..........no completely controlling / KO an opponent. Influencing, illusions, weakening, confusing, yada yada yada.....fine
  • molecular rearrangement / matter manipulation. May be used to alter organics but NOT against your opponents body, anything else if fair game.......(environment, etc.....)
  • Summoning minions. Limited. Inquire for adjudication.
  • NO PREP!!!! Muahahahaha!!!!
  • Starting distance = 10 miles apart.
  • Win is KO / incapacitation / death of opponent

The Battlefield Location!!!!!

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a dying planet chosen as neutral ground for the tourney. It is similar to earth in all ways. just on it's last legs. It is uninhabited. However there are empty cities and structures all throughout the planet along with the typical oceans, deserts, mountain ranges, forests, etc....

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The Contestants in this Battle!!!

Lvenger! (DC Team)

Fernus (and MMH as well) and Despero (pre 52)

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VS.

Frozen!! (DC Team)

Darkseid and Superman Prime

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The Perks store!!!!

Each team may select only 1 perk. Read and choose carefully:

    • TP resistance (1 min duration) for only one team member.
    • Invisibility (one team member affected. 5 sec duration)
    • Invulnerability!!! (think Mario's star!) 1 sec duration (resistant to EVERYTHING!)
    • Nullify!!! Negates a specified opponents abilities for 1 seconds....
    • Refraction!!! opponents attack bounce back! use x1 time in a battle, any time of choosing
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#2 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger@frozen: it's up and running gentlemen. I expect EPICNESS!!! looking forward to see also whom I get to debate in the Bonus round as I've never faced either of you previously........

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#3 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: I'll take the Nullify perk please Cos if that's alright.

Also who do you debate in the bonus round? The winner or loser of this debate?

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#4 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

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#6 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: You can start the opener if you want?

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#7 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet

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#8 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@lvenger: You can start the opener if you want?

I was going to ask if you wanted to open or not but I'm fine making the opening post if you want. Is tomorrow morning British time OK enough for me to make my opening post?

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#9 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by pikachumonster (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

This'll be good

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#11 Edited by Whirlwind_33 (1618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@cosmicallyaware1: I'll take the Nullify perk please Cos if that's alright.

Also who do you debate in the bonus round? The winner or loser of this debate?

nullify, gotcha. In the bonus round I will be facing the winner of the whole thing...............I have a strong suspicion it will one of you two fine gents, but i could be wrong also...;)

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#14 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: oh yeah.....this is gonna be one for the record books for sure....

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#15 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by reaverlation (25540 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: 0_0 holy jebus what a battle! Sure :)

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#17 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

Disclaimer

For those who have been following Veshark's debates in this tourney but are unaware as to why I'm now debating instead of him, I'll briefly fill you in. Veshark has been forced to step out of his tourneys due to school and other matters taking up a lot of his time. Seeing as I still have nearly 3 months of summer vacation off from university, Veshark asked me to fill in for me. A favour I was more than willing to oblige. This means

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I've also been meaning to have a CAV with @frozen for a while now but circumstances have fortunately provided this opportunity sooner than I was expecting. It's a good match up and going up against a formidable debater that I respect a lot on here should make for an interesting debate to say the least. Good luck mate and here's my opening post!

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Fernus and Despero

Introduction

First, I'll summarise my two team members for those who may not know who they are. Fernus is a Burning Martian, the original form of the Martian species of which J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter, is part of. When The Guardians of The Universe split The Burning Martians into Green and White Martians, they did so because The Burning Martians were too dangerous. They installed a innate fear of fire in both species of Martians to prevent them reaching this form. When J'onn overcame his fear of fire, he unlocked Fernus' potential within him. Fernus has all the same powers of Martian Manhunter who has been called the Swiss Army Knife of Superheroes; superstrength, superspeed, superhuman durability, flight, telepathy, intangibility, invisibility, shapeshifting etc. But if MM is the Swiss Army Knife of Superheroes, Fernus is a Swiss Army Knife without a safety on it. He has all of MM's powers and no morals or conscience to keep him from using them to their full extent.

Despero is a longtime foe of the JLA; a renowned teambuster with superhuman physicals and telepathic abilities that surpass even Manhunter’s. Whether they surpass Fernus' is a subject for debate but fortunately isn't my problem today.

This short intro illustrates the problems your team will have against my team. I have two legitimate teambusters with well rounded physicals and versatile abilities. I don't think I'm being presumptuous in saying this might be an uphill battle for you. Now it's time to get into my strategy for this battle!

Opening Strategy: Divide and Conquer - Fernus vs Superman Prime

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Superman Prime is the most powerful and MVP on your team. Whilst he is underrated, Darkseid doesn't possess the sheer physical threat that Prime poses in this battle. Being the alternate form of Martian Manhunter, Fernus should know who Prime is and how much of a danger he's posed in the past. Thus, some quick telepathic communication between Fernus and Despero would clue Despero up on Prime and establish a quick Divide and Conquer tactic. Whether Fernus or Despero is more powerful is arguable but Fernus is definitely more versatile than Despero so his power set would be the most suitable for taking Prime permanently off the board. Another quick telepathic scan should determine where Prime and Darkseid are located in the 10 mile gap between our teams. With their course of action decided, Fernus will engage Prime whilst Despero goes after Darkseid.

I've sent Fernus after Prime for simple but effective reasons. Fernus has many ways of taking Prime out of the battle that I've already thought of and he can avoid the sheer physical threat that Prime possesses in battle. Mainly of course through his intangibility.

He's casually phased through Hal Jordan's constructs before

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J'onn is capable of casually phasing through Sledge's attempts to hit him physically and he can activate it fast enough that Prime won't have any luck harming him.

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And I'm sure both of us are aware of what happened when Superboy Prime tried to take on a Martian Manhunter that was ready for him.

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This evidence demonstrates how Fernus will phase through Prime's physical and heat vision/energy based attacks. Undoubtedly, Prime possesses quite the physical threat to even these two teambusters and is probably the physically strongest here. But without any restraint to make him want to play around with Prime, Fernus is much more likely to avoid Prime's temper tantrums via his intangibility. This rules out Prime's main way of harming his opponents.

EDIT: Best of all, Fernus/MM's intangibility is just as effective for offense as it is for defense. Fortunately for you, Cosmic's recent ruling has nullified most of these ways I can take Prime off the table. Unfortunately for you, this only partially neuters 1 out of my 6 strategies I have in mind for Fernus taking out Prime. Nonetheless, I'll rectify my phasing tactic by just having Fernus phase Prime down into the centre of the planet and then race back up to help Despero put as much hurt on Darkseid as possible before Prime gets back up top.

This is something Fernus should easily be able to do. He's casually phased Superman into the JLA Roundtable.

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Also, Fernus has shown enough skill to phase out the organs of two White Martians who are also capable of becoming intangible.

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As I'm sure you're aware from Saren's Generic Martian Capabilities part of his Martian Manhunter respect thread, White Martians are not the typical pathetic fodder that some alien species like Kryptonians seem to be in comparison to Superman. They're all pretty powerful and near the level of MM himself. Yet they were unable to deal with J'onn's phasing and were taken out.

Additionally, J'onn showed great finesse with his intangibility in one of his last Pre Flashpoint appearances where he removed an inoperable wound from the brain of Melissa Erdel without harming her in any way.

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I may be guessing here but I'd say it was a lot harder performing that trick than it would be for Fernus to use his phasing on Prime's brain to turn him into a drooling, babbling mess (If that were allowed.) The level of control MM displayed with his intangibility here is strong proof for my assertion that Fernus is capable of phasing Prime into the planet then making his way up top to help hurt Darkseid as much as he can to make the possibility of Despero defeating Uxas much easier.

And even though you'll already be having trouble countering Fernus' intangible advantage, there are plenty of ways Fernus can take care of Superman Prime, I promise you that.

Part 2: Despero vs Darkseid

Whilst Fernus handles Superman Prime, it'll be up to Despero to at least hold off, if not deal with Darkseid. A task I'm more than assured Despero is capable of completing. Darkseid may be considered the big bad of the DCU but based of feats, combat showings and consistency of performing said feats, Despero is going to prove a more than formidable opponent for Darkseid to handle. This time, I'm going to throw the kitchen sink in and highlight an astonishing difference between Despero and Darkseid; physical stats. Here's one scan that drives that point home hard when Despero takes on all these guys at once.

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In the feat above from JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, Despero takes a collective assault from Superman, Captain Marvel, Power Girl, Wonder Woman and Hourman. With the exception of Hourman (who might be a 50 tonner or something like that, I'm not too sure) everyone else there is at least Class-100. Heck Class 100 is only a general description for the first 4 characters listed here. Anyway, Superman, Captain Marvel, Power Girl and Wonder Woman are top tier DC powerhouses with the feats to prove. Yet Despero is able to overpower every hero via brute strength and TK. Now, whilst I do think Darkseid is underrated on here, especially recently, and that he should also be able to beat Superman, he consistently has trouble doing so. It might be unfair to use this reasoning but unfortunately it clearly shows the physical difference between Despero and Darkseid. And whereas Darkseid has trouble defeating one Kryptonian, Despero can overpower two of them alongside an Amazon and a boy both gifted with the powers of the Gods respectively. When you see things in this light, it highlights just how physically superior Despero is to Darkseid.

And in contrast to Superman giving Darkseid trouble in a brawl, see what Despero does to him instantly

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He instantly pins Superman down so that he's unable to move or overpower Despero's grip and almost enslaves him under his mental control. Again, we can obviously observe the raw physical might Despero is packing in this battle via how quickly he pins Superman, someone often considered to be one of the most physically strongest beings on DC Earth, if not the DC Universe.

And if you think you can keep Darkseid out of physical conflict, think again. When Despero and Fernus fly over to confront their foes, Despero will most likely open his battle against Darkseid with a brutally fast speed blitz. This is definitely not out of the question with morals off and Despero is capable of moving at incredible flight speeds to boot. For example, he's flown from the Moon to the Earth in mere seconds. Twice.

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If your contention is that Despero doesn't have a feat like that which applies to a person, I'll bring up his surprise blitz of Matrix-Supergirl. Though she isn't the fastest of opponents, her combat speed is near hypersonic combat speed is near-hypersonic as she’s been able to catch a speeding bullet with her telekinesis, as well as deflect Steel’s hammer in midair.

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After being hit by a blitz like that, I'm certain there's more than a distinct possibility that Darkseid will be quite rattled by Despero's opening salvo to say the least. From here, Despero will engage Darkseid in battle, using his superior physical strength, speed, reactions, telepathy and TK to at least stave off Uxas, if not outright overpower him, whilst Fernus eliminates Prime. Given what I've shown of Despero here and what else I have in store, I believe my strategy has a great deal of plausible merit to it.

Overall

  • Fernus and Despero are both well rounded, versatile, heavy hitting teambusters capable of taking on big League teams like the JLA and JSA all at once.
  • Fernus' phasing enables him to avoid the physical threat that Prime poses to him when going up against Superman Prime.
  • Fernus' diverse powerset has already offered one way of temporarily incapacitating Prime via various uses of his intangibility and that's only getting started on how Fernus can beat Prime.
  • On the other side, Despero is physically superior to Darkseid, faster than he is and can employ TK effectively in battle (more on that later.)
  • With Fernus able to take Prime out of the game, Fernus then proceeds to join Despero fighting Darkseid and the two double team the overlord of Apokolips for a deadly finish.

Apologies if this is too short but there's plenty more to come obviously. Your move @frozen.

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#18 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: @lvenger: I was going to ask, I know your character being intangible is allowed on his own body, however the OP states May be used to alter organics but NOT against your opponents body, anything else if fair game.......(environment, etc.....)

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#19 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: So you're saying my first tactic for Fernus to use on Prime breaches the rules? Technically I don't see that being the case due to Cos' rule relating to molecular manipulation and matter manipulation. None of which is the case with my phasing strategy I believe. I'm fairly positive that my first proposal doesn't go against the rules. But let's get @cosmicallyaware1's ruling here. Am I allowed to use Fernus' phasing on Prime to phase him into the ground, remove his organs or mess up his brain? Or does it breach this rule: May be used to alter organics but NOT against your opponents body, anything else if fair game.......(environment, etc.....)

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#20 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'm just asking whether it does, because that's how intangibility works, a vibration of the atoms, and Darkseid's matter manipulation was restricted in previous rounds in the sense of using it offensively against the opposing team's body (matter is made of up atoms and molecules).

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#21 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Wait no that isn't how it works at all. The reason I'm contending this is because Cosmic's rule relates to matter manipulation and molecular manipulation. That isn't related to the workings of intangibility at all. That's a different power and ability altogether.

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#22 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I was just asking Cosmic in regards to using it against opponent's body/organs, I know it's applicable on using it on your own body for defence.

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#23 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I gathered that but I think my tactic is applicable on Prime's body as well as my own since it doesn't relate to molecular or matter manipulation. But we'll wait to see what Cosmic says and if he rules in your favour, I won't question his decision.

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#24 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Well, technially IMHO intangibility works in a similar way but I agree, we are best off waiting for Cosmic's ruling.

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#25 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Fernus isn't an amp

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#26 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Fernus isn't an amp

I assume you mean he's just a severely morals off Martian Manhunter? Hmm he did perform feats above MM's range but I'll defer to you and edit that into my intro post.

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#27 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

Invulnerability perk is mine.

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#28 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @frozen: ok gents. Here's how I see it.

It is correct that the rule applies to matter manipulation and molecular rearrangement.

I would allow phasing as long as its not an insta kill tactic.

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#29 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: So in relation to my tactics, I assume I can't use MM phasing through Prime's organs nor messing with his brain as that would be insta kills? How about this? Can I still use this tactic or does it break your insta kill rule?

Such as when he quickly took out Superman by phasing him into the JLA roundtable.

Although Prime is certainly more powerful than Superman in his adult Guardian amped form, he still has vibration abilities of his own. Yet Fernus took him out quickly and effectively. None of Clark's superhuman strength of physicals could help him remove his arms from the roundtable. Likewise, Fernus could just as easily phase Prime into the ground out of sync with the physical and tangible world.

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#30 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

So in relation to my tactics, I assume I can't use MM phasing through Prime's organs nor messing with his brain as that would be insta kills? How about this? Can I still use this tactic or does it break your insta kill rule?

well, here's the thing..........I find the tactic plausible, and probably would go that route at some point or other to be honest lol. But the only discrepancy is the "insta kill" factor. It can be used in low gradient level, more along the lines of temporary disruption or to gain an edge. It would not be used to permanently disable. So phasing through the organs to disrupt and off balance....yes. Phasing into an object to win or phasing an organ out of the body for win.............no.

Does that help and clear it up? hopefully explained enough.........

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#31 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Alright, we have Cosmic's ruling to both inquiries, thanks for the clarification @cosmicallyaware1. I'll form my counter post now.

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#32 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: I think I understand what you're saying here. I can use phasing to temporarily disable my opponent but not take him out permanently. That's acceptable.

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#33 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I've edited my phasing tactic for Fernus to use on Prime Frozen, I thought I should let you know so you could take it into account for your post.

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#34 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Yep, thanks for notifying me, I'll get to it in my counter.

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#35 Posted by darkseid1006 (4076 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Fernus is a amp... It was the unlocking of the true potential of Martians not just the morals and fire vulnerability remover. Also it certainly amped his TP as he showed feats greater than what he had done before even when not holding back.

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#36 Posted by Kingant27 (16647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Fernus is a amp... It was the unlocking of the true potential of Martians not just the morals and fire vulnerability remover. Also it certainly amped his TP as he showed feats greater than what he had done before even when not holding back.

Actually, he's not. It wasn't unlocking ''true potential'', it was just a bloodlust Martian without a fire weakness, he's had better TP feats without Fernus.

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#38 Posted by darkseid1006 (4076 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: unlocking true potential is a amp from standard MMH. Also if you must know MMH stated himself that he could only keep the Joker sane for a couple of mins and that it required his full concentration and he still clearly showed strain. Fernus however did it too Joker and the rest of Arkham Asylum and not only didn't struggle but made it permanent through the rest of the storyline even though he was fighting leagues of superheroes and clearly not using full concentration.

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#39 Posted by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: unlocking true potential is a amp from standard MMH. Also if you must know MMH stated himself that he could only keep the Joker sane for a couple of mins and that it required his full concentration and he still clearly showed strain. Fernus however did it too Joker and the rest of Arkham Asylum and not only didn't struggle but made it permanent through the rest of the storyline even though he was fighting leagues of superheroes and clearly not using full concentration.

It's not, he just had no restraint, the 'true potential' was in regards to his weakness, he has TP feats without the Fernus, such as TP'ing Spectre, he wouldn't struggle to TP Joker without it unless bad writing is involved.

I don't want to derail this too though, so we can discuss in PM if you want.

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#40 Edited by Thedailybagel (12566 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#41 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Interesting opener, now for my counter/strategy.

Introduction: Team Frozen

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It's best for me to summarise exactly who is on Team Frozen, two monstorous powerhouses: Darkseid and Superman Prime. It's best for me to clarify this is the Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, as I am only one version of the character, the version in the OP is the New-52 design, however the version I am debating with is very much the Pre-Flashpoint version, who is one in the same as the Pre-Crisis version.

Darkseid, worshipped as the God of Evil, Darkseid is the supreme monarch of planet Apokolips. Considered one of greatest threats to the DC Universe, he seeks to control all sentinent and sapient life with the Anti-Life Equation.

Superman Prime on the other hand, like Darkseid was originally in the Pre-Crisis Universe. However, his life was not the same, he came from an alternate Earth known as Earth Prime. In this reality, superheroes (including Superman) were all comic-book heroes published under DC. Prime was 15 years of age, however his name was Clark Kent, his adoptive parents had named him after Superman, little did he know he really was Superman and soon after meeting the real Superman, he unlocked his power, however a Crisis ensued, and the Multiverse was chopped down to one, singular Universe (New Earth). Prime, with others was forced to stay in a 'paradise' dimension, however he had had enough, and soon escaped the dimension, not long after he became a villain, disgusted and jealous with the new heroes, he proved formidable by not only killing DC's top powerhouses, but flat out dwarfing them in power. The version being used here is the 19 year old Superman Prime, who had absorbed an influx of radiation which made him grow into a man (so essentially, a boy in a man's body).

I'm going to examine the further stragey layed out by you:

Darkseid vs Despero

Interesting matchup and 'divide' and conquer technique. Your strategy here is...interesting. One thing I couldn't help but notice is your comment which said:

With Fernus able to take Prime out of the game, Fernus then proceeds to join Despero fighting Darkseid and the two double team the overlord of Apokolips for a deadly finish

This is an interesting strategy, 'double teaming' --- simply because this is much easier for my team to perform a double team rather than yours. I'll get into this, but let's just recap what the OP states:

NO BFR FOR WIN, however may be used in a battle as an element as applicable. Just not for a win

The element of BFR cannot be used for a win, however it is very much applicable.

Flying from The Moon to The Earth is relatively impressive, but that's all I can say of it. It's relatively impressive, your first scan is from Justice League America #38. The previous issue,is Justice League America #37.

To put it in short, on page 5 of the previous issue, he was all the way at Neptune, which is 4.3 billion kilometers away from Earth and begins to fly towards Earth.

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He flies away on page 7 (23 pages in this comic) and he's next seen in your first scan of Despero flying from The Earth to the Moon, which is in the next issue (#37) on page 9 (out of 23). It takes him a fair while to reach Earth.

Darkseid can BFR Despero to the very outer reaches of the Solar System to a far away planet, if not even further away which will remove Despero for the battle until he flies back to the Earth. Many often confuse Darkseid's Omega Beams for only being used for concussive effect, however this is not true --- they can BFR people back in time, matter manipulate people and BFR people anywhere in space (which is applicable here). Below, I'll cite instances of Darkseid's Omega Beams BFR'ing other beings to different places in Space.

Here, we have Darkseid's Omega Beams teleporting Martian Manhunter from Apokolips to Mars.

Martian Manhunter #34 and Martian Manhunter #35

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We should also note what's said in the second scan. ''I know your Omega Beams can teleport across time and space great Darkseid, as well as obliterate''.

We have on-panel, clear and empirical evidence of Darkseid's Omega Beams can teleport people across space, anywhere in space. To further cement this power, I'll cite more instances of the same thing happening. Below, is Darkseid teleporting Superman from Apokolips to Earth in Adventures of Superman #518.

And we have the same thing happening again. He teleports Harry Lockman to Earth with his Omega Beams.

New Gods #12

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Very much so, Despero will find himself on the receiving end of the Omega Beams, and Darkseid using this tactic is very simple, his Omega Beams are not limited to concussive effect, Darkseid's Omega Beams will teleport Despero to a planet that is light-years away, or even more, to a necessary extent to effectively turn this battle into a 2 vs 1 until Despero returns (obviously, by flying back). This brings me to how the matchup will then pan out.

Superman Prime vs Fernus

It's interesting that you've chosen this matchup, in my opinion there is more evidence to say this matchup would turn into Superman Prime vs Despero and Darkseid vs Fernus, but I'll examine every aspect and possible angle of this.

And I'm sure both of us are aware of what happened when Superboy Prime tried to take on a Martian Manhunter that was ready for him.

This is quite superficial, actually. While he was able to turn intangibile when Prime punched him, if you look very closely at the next page, it's shown that Prime is punching Martian (and Martian certainly isn't intangible). By your own admission, Martian was 'ready'....

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Which suggests that Martian won't be able to stay intangible for the entire fight, against a more powerful Man Prime (who genuinely is more powerful), even in the instance you've used, the next page shows a closeup of Prime landing on Martian quickly after, there are two sides to the coin. And just to clarify: this isn't a recording of when Prime sucker-attacked Martian in the watchtower, namely because we can see Power Girl and Prime is wearing his armour, which he only obtained after escaping the Speed Force.

And his attack didn't actually hurt Prime. He hurt Prime about as much as Kal-El did. And if we get into the nitty-gritty of it, Prime is a few good notches above Martian physically. I'll briefly explain why.

Martian's best physical strength feat is when he moved The Earth along with Superman and Wonder Woman, in JLA #75. However, all three are visibly straining while they are doing this, and they are barely able to move The Earth for very long.

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In fact, while I do acknowledge they were pulling it (which is an easier motion that pushing, btw), Kyle basically stepped in and released the strain from them.

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By contrast, Prime in his weaker boy form is quite easily is arranging planets at super-speeds.

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Be my guest to fill me in on Martian's general durability feats, because Prime as a boy in the Sinestro Corps War story arc tanked the War-World explosion (which by contrast, decimated Cyborg Superman). This blast, was stated on-panel to be capable of destroying a Milky-Way (....which confirms serious power, into Skyfather territory).

Just to confirm he tanked it, we see Power Girl throw him in.

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We have confirmation the War-World explosion can destroy a Milky-Way Galaxy.

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And then he tanks it.

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And he's actually pretty fine afterwards.

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And even if you don't agree that it was Milky-Way busting, we know it was extremely powerful because by contrast, Cyborg Superman was oblierated, and I'd think you'd agree with me that Hank Henshar is certainly superior to Superman (New Earth) by a wide margin.

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The Martian will evidently struggle to take a punch from the superior Man Prime, and I will get into why Man Prime is so far above the weaker Boy version (who was shifting around entire planets and tanking Milky-Way destroying explosions) as this round unravels, however in regards to your instance of Martian becoming intangible dodging Prime's attack, we have the next page showing Prime tagging him and a plethora of evidence which confirms Prime operates on a level PHYSICALLY far above Superman/Martian Manhunter, and considering the OP has restricted many of Martian's powers and the way you can use them, it'll be an uphill battle for your team.

And also, I should point out that the scan you posted wasn't the last time Martian fought Prime, Superboy Prime (who was stated on-panel to be losing radiation, as a few pages later he loses out on his power only to regain it) completely manhandled Martian Manhunter in Tales of theSinestro Corps: Superman Prime

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And in the above scan, Martian was well aware of how dangerous Prime was at that point.

I'll be interested to hear your possible strategies, as of now, a section of your post caught my eye:

Fernus phase Prime down into the centre of the planet

When has Martian ever shown phasing of this magnitude? Because phasing Prime on the surface like a roundhouse table is nothing like phasing him into the centre of the planet, I've never seen Martian do anything of this magnitude so I'm going to have to ask for evidence of this claim.

Because as you know, Prime already flew through Earth 15 and destroyed it by flying through it's core, and it was done in only two pages.

As of now, this battle is Darkseid and Prime vs Fernus, and if you think Darkseid can't tag Fernus, think again. His Omega Beams have tagged intangible opponents. Let's look at one instance.

Young Justice #37

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In the very same comic of Darkseid teleporting Martian to Mars, it was said on-panel previously why an intangible Martian Manhunter was tagged, despite being intangible.

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Darkseid is a multi-dimensional being, and his Omega Beams have tagged intangible opponents, while they may not kill Martian, they will certainly put the hurting on Fernus, making him tangible, to which Superman Prime will already be wailing on Fernus, and from the evidence I've provided, and will further provide (because, I still have a lot of Prime stuff, and Darkseid stuff left to show), Fernus will succumb. Prime in his adult guardian form vastly outclasses Fernus in strength, striking power, durability and is faster, whereas Darkseid's OB will be blasting him in concussive form. It won't take many punches from Prime to put down Martian, given from what we've seen, and his actual interaction with Martian as a weaker boy, he's flat out more powerful. My argument has feasible merit to it, backed up with clear, empirical and on-panel evidence.

Then, when Despero returns, it's Darkseid and Prime vs Despero, which will be a relatively quick win.

Overall

  • Both my team members are of useful asset. Prime has also taken on teams, such as the JLA/JSA, moved planets, manhandled my actual opposing member, and shown to be all around superior
  • Despite Martian becoming intangible to dodge one of Prime's attacks, he couldn't hurt Prime and Prime actually lands a punch quickly after, we also have evidence of him being flat out superior
  • The tactic of making this into a 2 vs 1 battle is much easier from my end, backed up with on-panel and clear evidence, Darkseid has BFR'd characters across space, and his Omega Beams can teleport Despero to a planet light-years away, effectively and temporarily removing him from the battle field
  • Simply put, the opposing team is restricted in what they can actually do. Not only is their mind-raping ability is restricted, but so is the insta-kill phasing, and phasing can only be used to temporarily slow down my member
  • With the battle brought to 2 vs 1, Darkseid's Omega Beams will be blasting Martian, hurting him while Prime will be wailing on the tangible Martian, effectively Fernus will be down after Prime lands, Fernus will succumb rather quickly
  • Despero returns, and quickly gets overwhelmed, Prime could very well solo Despero on his own but more on that later

Your move @lvenger, obviously I still have a lot more to say on this, and a lot more evidence to cite as my argument further develops and unravels.

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#42 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Interesting reply but I have to call you out on pushing the BFR rule way too far. Whilst it's still applicable, I thought the distance for temporary BFR would be much more limited than what you're blatantly pushing the edge of the rules to your own agenda. I'm gonna have to ask @cosmicallyaware1 to confirm whether Frozen is allowed to temporarily BFR Despero so far in space as it goes against the rules you set up in the first place.

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#43 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: It doesn't change the fact it pushes the rules just as far as my intangibility tactics do. I seriously question the legitimacy of you being able to BFR me so far when it goes against the rules set out in this tourney. BFRing me just off Earth would be reasonable, BFRing me to Neptune is a step too far in relation to the rules Cosmic has set up.

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#46 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I don't agree that it went against the rules if I'm not even using it or even attempting to present it as a win, I just made it applicable, I acknowledged Despero would return and he has the ability to return because he can fly back, the measure is temporary but applicable, in my first tournament round Prime was BFR'd galactic distances by Ronan and I was left with Darkseid vs Ronan and Thanos.

But alright, we'll wait for Cosmic's ruling.

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#48 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: That question wasn't answered as it should have been given the distance you want to send Despero away from the battleground.

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#49 Edited by Frozen (21096 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: What do you mean? Are you asking me where I am BFR'ing Despero? Because it was more in line with BFR'ing him for 10-15 minutes, not hours or days.

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#50 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: @lvenger: as far as the BFR is concerned gentlemen:

Adjudication!!!!

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You may use BFR, temporarily as a plot device.