It's happening!!!!!!! And the Battle continues....................
The Scenario!!!!!
Quite simply once again The Grandmaster and Krona are creating havoc on a grand abstract scale
and our heroes and villains from each prospective Universe have been throw into contests to prove their universe is worthy sparing of annihilation. Each team believes that if they win, they will obtain the power item for their universe. The prospective universe teams that obtains the most power items presents them at the end of the tournament and saves the day (or in the villains case, win control!!!)
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each team sees their power item suspended in the sky of every match, similar to this:
The Rules of engagement!!!!!
NO BFR FOR WIN, however may be used in a battle as an element as applicable. Just not for a win
Standard gear as applicable, and this is MORALS OFF characters
No Timetravel or Time manipulation
No insta-kill one shots (this would include complete mind rape. none of that for the win for you TP users)
speaking of TP / Psychic abilities here..........no completely controlling / KO an opponent. Influencing, illusions, weakening, confusing, yada yada yada.....fine
molecular rearrangement / matter manipulation. May be used to alter organics but NOT against your opponents body, anything else if fair game.......(environment, etc.....)
Summoning minions. Limited. Inquire for adjudication.
NO PREP!!!! Muahahahaha!!!!
Starting distance = 10 miles apart.
Win is KO / incapacitation / death of opponent
The Battlefield Location!!!!!
a dying planet chosen as neutral ground for the tourney. It is similar to earth in all ways. just on it's last legs. It is uninhabited. However there are empty cities and structures all throughout the planet along with the typical oceans, deserts, mountain ranges, forests, etc....
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The Contestants in this Battle!!!
Veshark (DC Team)
Fernus (and MMH as well) and Despero (pre 52)
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VS.
Darkraiden (Marvel Team)
Spectrum (Monica Rambeau) and Darwin
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The Perks store!!!!
Each team may select only 1 perk. Read and choose carefully:
TP resistance (1 min duration) for only one team member.
Invisibility (one team member affected. 5 sec duration)
Teleportation generator. (one team member only, can only be used once!)
Invulnerability!!! (think Mario's star!) 10 sec duration (resistant to EVERYTHING!)
Nullify!!! Negates a specified opponents abilities for 5 seconds....
Pre-Cog flashes! 2 min duration......
Refraction!!! opponents attack bounce back! use x1 time in a battle, any time of choosing
"cosmic awarenesss" insight! x1 in a battle, one member uses it only (duration 2 seconds)
Magic Immunity! (30 sec duration) (one team member)
Time Freeze! (I said no time manip in OP, well this is the only way to get it!!! 2 sec duration.....area of effect......50 foot radius bubble in all directions......use wisely and carefully if chosen)
I'll choose nullify and nullify Despero's telepathy.
Ok here's how it goes.
1. Due to being MFTL in travel speed, Monica clears the 10 miles nigh instantly (less than nanoseconds) and blitzes Despero. She flies through him first, then shrinks, goes inside his head, and attacks him with a thousand lightspeed attacks, then grows to normal size (while in his head) in lightning form and makes his brain explode by manipulating the electricity in his brain.
2. This takes less than even a second, and with Despero dead, she repeats this on Fernus, killing him as well.
3. Darwin will be backing her up should she die, but mostly will wait on Fernus to come to him. When he does (he'll be forced to due to Darwin adapting to his powers) Darwin will either sap him of his powers ala Hela or depower him like he did Werewolf By Night.
I'll choose nullify and nullify Despero's telepathy.
Ok here's how it goes.
1. Due to being MFTL in travel speed, Monica clears the 10 miles nigh instantly (less than nanoseconds) and blitzes Despero. She flies through him first, then shrinks, goes inside his head, and attacks him with a thousand lightspeed attacks, then grows to normal size (while in his head) in lightning form and makes his brain explode by manipulating the electricity in his brain.
2. This takes less than even a second, and with Despero dead, she repeats this on Fernus, killing him as well.
3. Darwin will be backing her up should she die, but mostly will wait on Fernus to come to him. When he does (he'll be forced to due to Darwin adapting to his powers) Darwin will either sap him of his powers ala Hela or depower him like he did Werewolf By Night.
@darkraiden Apologies for the wait, but I'm here now. Alright, let's kick this off with an opening post/rebuttal:
Fernus & Despero
Primer
I’ll begin with a quick summary of my team for the uninformed. Fernus is an alternate psyche of the Martian Manhunter; unleashed after J’onn conquered his fear of fire. He possesses all of J’onn’s powers of telepathy, shape-shifting, et cetera – but to even greater degrees and with zero morals.
Despero is a longtime foe of the JLA; a renowned teambuster with superhuman physicals and telepathic abilities that surpass even Manhunter’s. Everyone caught up? Great. For this round, my team will be using the Nullify perk. Onward!
Opening Tactics
To start, I don’t get how your team will use Nullify on Despero’s TP, when they’re not even aware of my team’s capabilities yet? Spectrum & Darwin have zero knowledge of their enemies at the start of this fight. And considering Despero hasn’t used his TP, and that your team’s from a different Earth, how would they know about his powers in the first place?
If Despero had actually used his powers to draw first blood, and then your team responds with Nullify; that makes sense. But in this context, your team is acting on knowledge that only you (the debater) have.
The second point I want to raise is your lack of scans. Providing on-panel showings for your team’s capabilities would be useful, and it also gives your argument credibility. At present, none of your strategies have any visual proof to back them up, and it's difficult to debate without any scans.
Moving on: The first thing my team will do is to prevent yours from dictating the battle’s terms. Your plan operates on the premise that Fernus will go for Darwin while Despero handles Spectrum. Unfortunately, that won’t be the case. When Monica charges for Despero, Fernus is going to intercept her and put her down.
Martian Manhunter himself already possesses superluminal flight speed. In the scan below, J’onn flies to the planet of Naftali, which is stated to be ‘too many light years from Earth to count’. Such a distance would necessitate FTL flight speed, and considering Fernus is the stronger version of J’onn, well, that’s that:
And it’s not just his travel speed, but his reaction-time that is FTL as well. In this next set of scans, Martian Manhunter ejects and flies after a space-ship explicitly stated to be moving at eight times the speed of light. J’onn then uses a telekinetic grip to seize hold of the ship and pull it towards him. This is essentially Martian Manhunter reacting to a FTL object in motion:
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Given his impressive travel and reflex speed, Fernus should be able to intercept Monica. Now I’m not saying he’ll physically tag her in this situation. But Fernus’ reaction-time should be more than enough to fire off a telepathic attack at Spectrum before she reaches Despero. If he can react at FTL speeds, you can be sure that his speed-of-thought is FTL.
One telepathic strike is sufficient to break Monica’s concentration and stop her in mid-flight. Any form of sentience (from machinery to energy beings to dead souls) can be affected by Martian telepathy, and given that this attack is unexpected, it should take Spectrum by surprise and ground her.
Now your strategy works under the assumption that my team will split-up, but neither one of my team is going to chase after Darwin. If he’s going to remain behind while Despero & Fernus gang-up on Spectrum, that’s your choice. I don’t even know if Darwin possesses the capabilities to cross the 10-mile distance in time, but I’ll leave that for you to address.
Anyway, the split-second when Monica loses her focus is plenty of time for my team to kill Spectrum. Fernus and Despero both trap her in a terrifying mental illusion to distract her, before tearing her physical body apart. Even if you use the Nullify perk on one of my team’s members now – it’s not going to stop the other. Both have planet-wide telepathic power and Class-100 strength.
Fernus draws on the fears of John Stewart and creates an illusion of his dead sister
And in this next set, Despero traps Martian Manhunter in an illusion that leaves him drooling and semi-comatose. Keep in mind that this is Martian Manhunter, someone whose mind can connect with cosmic-level beings like Metron, Spectre, and Mageddon.
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Alternatively, my team could also cut off Monica's access to her powers before killing her. In the two scans below, Fernus telepathically cuts off Ronnie Raymond's connection to the Firestorm matrix, effectively depowering him. The effect is instantaneous, and Ronnie doesn't recover his powers until after Fernus is destroyed:
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Fernus and Despero could collectively neuter Monica by shutting off her brain's access to her powers. Mental blocks that prevent Monica from telling her powers to activate, basically. Anything that will prevent her from fighting her quick death.
With Spectrum defeated, my team will then move on to handle Darwin. Now regarding Darwin, correct me if I'm wrong: but I don’t think he’s able to preemptively absorb powers. The instance with Hela’s death-touch was an extreme case where stealing her powers was his only means of survival. But there’s no guarantee that Darwin will adapt to Despero’s attacks via power-absorption here.
That’s essentially saying Darwin saps the powers of anyone who punches him, or uses a telepathic strike against him, or any form of attack, really. Darwin responds and adapts to attacks, but he doesn’t automatically steal them in most occasions (though, there are exceptions). Point being that it's not a sure thing.
And based off the showing you mentioned, I don’t think Darwin can depower my team either. In the Werewolf-By-Night battle, Darwin states that he used a ‘bioelectric shock that stops shape-shifters from holding a shape’. He basically reverted WBN back to human form. But Despero isn’t a shape-changer. His current form is his only form, and Despero’s abilities are inherent in his physiology.
Anyway, back to Despero & Fernus. A quick telepathic scan should determine Darwin’s position, as well as his powers. My team will then use our Nullify perk on him. I don't believe he can adapt out of the perk, seeing as how his powers don't exist anymore (think the time the Shi'ar used power-nullifiers on him). In the 5 seconds that Darwin’s adaptation abilities are effectively depowered, my team will speed-blitz and kill him. Either through raw strength or dropping him in a volcano, et cetera.
With all that said, I believe I have covered a basic opening strategy for how my team will beat yours. I pass the floor back to you, DR.
1. I was under the impression that I the debater was using the nullify perk and not the team? Maybe @cosmicallyaware1 can clear that up. Definitely wouldn't have picked nullify if that was the case.
2. Looking at the scans, not only is Jonn being VASTLY outpaced by the ship despite being outside it for but a moment, but it specifically states he can't keep up with the ship's speed. This isn't really reacting at 8x the speed of light simply because he was in the ship first. He was in the ship, left it, grabbed it telekinetically. Now if he was a mere bystander and did it I'd count it but....it's like if you threw a human (that could fly/glide) out of a plane, for the first few moments, he'd be able to 'think' at the plane as well, but it doesn't mean they have reaction speeds that fast.
Kinda like how if you run at 5mph in a FTL ship you're moving FTL as well but you yourself isn't really moving FTL.
Regardless, Monica moves at least well....a millionx lightspeed? No at least 10 thousandx lightspeed (it's kinda hard to do the math) as shown here
In a blink of an eye, she transports someone approximately 1 billion miles. A blink of an eye is 300 milliseconds or .3 seconds so she's moving at close to 3 billion miles per second. The speed of light is 186, 282.397 miles per second so that's roughly 16,000 times the speed of light. So even if Jonn could react to/see something moving at 8x the speed of light, he's not gonna see her.
3. I'd also like to point out 2 things.
1. Monica has been mind controlled before and still could dictate which powers she used to attack people with
and
2. In DC and Marvel, electricity powers interfere with TP big time. See Static, Storm, etc.
So after blitzing Despero hopelessly and destroying him and then moving on to Fernus, if Fernus should even get a thought off (unlikely due to her travel speed, size, powers, etc.) she should be able to turn into pure electricity which should disrupt his powers and bring her back to normal.
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Just the scan with her using her choice of power despite being mind controlled, static being unsenseable by Miss Martian and resisting the Anti-Life Equation, and Monica using her lightning form (to hurt Hercules and Namor no less). I'd also like to point out that you likely wouldn't be able to do much to Monica if you did stop her since she'd be in energy form.
4. Darwin sees your weaknesses since his stint with Hela, so he should be able to....adapt his methods used against Hela, WBN, the M'Kraan crystal, etc. to psionic energy and either deactivate it/become immune to it, or drain it. As for Hela, that wasn't really the only way he could've adapted, IIRC he forced it. He could've teleported away, simply become immune to her touch, become intangible, etc. so it's proof that he can have some control over it (since he wanted to save his friend from her touch). And afterwards he became even better with it.
I also doubt a telepathic scan would even pickup Darwin considering his body adapts to any type of disadvantageous situation and he's turned into something technically mindless before to nullify a neural attack. He developed night vision just by being put in darkness and stone hands to fight bullies and smarts just to impress his mom so it's not always survival based.
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First scan is him telling how he dissects people now and can see how to kill them, then him getting night vision, him making a body from pure energy, him becoming smarter to impress his mom, and the WBN scan where he states that 'everything is changed' because he can affect others now for his survival (which is what I was saying he'd do to you guys if you got to him).
Oh and I'm pretty sure you'd have to choose which of Darwin's powers to nullify, his proactive adaptation or his reactive adaptation since he has both now. So either way, he should survive the 5 seconds and then defeat your team how I said before, if he doesn't defeat them BEFORE you activate the nullify.
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Darwin vs. Hela, Photon's thousands of attacks at lightspeed, and her shrinking down, since you wanted scans of things.
So overall:
Monica is still too fast for anyone on your team with or without the shaky 8x speed of light feat
Monica's lightning powers can disrupt TP and save her from your TP misdirection thing
Darwin's adaptation tailor towards what he wants even when they were reactive, now they're proactive
Darwin should be able to counter and/or depower your team should they get past Monica (they won't)
I assumed that the Perks were for the teams themselves. In-universe, the teams should be aware of what capabilities they can implement for their strategies. Regardless, we’ll leave this for Cos to adjudicate. Though I should note that even if you use Nullify on Despero’s TP, the effect is only 5 seconds and it’s Fernus who’s intercepting Monica, anyway.
On J’onn’s light-speed feat, I believe you might be misinterpreting the showing, though this is my bad for not going into detail here. This showing comes from Justice League Task Force #32, and the entire 8-page sequence (with no omissions) is posted below:
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So, with the entire feat put into context, what have we learned?
J’onn was not outside the ship ‘for a moment’. He was forcibly ejected out of the vehicle by Mystik, in an uncontrolled exit. Subsequent to that, he shoots Gypsy aside to get her out of the ship’s backwash. Point being that he did not instantly follow after the ship the moment he exited it, though this is my bad for not clarifying.
J’onn was still able to fly and catch up to the ship. Even after dealing with Gypsy, J’onn could still fly fast enough to close in on a ship moving at 8x the speed of light. That’s superluminal flight speed right there. For all we know, J’onn could very well have kept pace with the ship if he hadn’t had to deal with Gypsy.
J’onn reacted to a FTL object in motion. To recap: Manhunter got kicked out of a FTL ship, had to rescue Gypsy, had to fly to catch up to the ship…and was still able to lock onto it with a TK grip. In short, this showing is indisputable proof that J’onn, does in fact, have FTL reflexes/thought-processes.
Fernus is a stronger version of J’onn: Finally, I just want to stress that anything J’onn can do, Fernus can do a lot better. Granted, this is more of a general observation, but all of his abilities were shown to be operate on a greater degree that Manhunter’s. Keep that in mind throughout the debate.
So hopefully I’ve debunked your rebuttal on Martian Manhunter’s reaction-time. Moving on to Monica’s own travel speed, I do question the single panel that you’ve shown as proof. To be honest, ‘blink of aneye’ sounds like a figure-of-speech rather than a quantifiable term here. To add, this is Spectrum herself narrating, not some omniscient narrator voice.
Frankly, I find the claim to be shaky. From my understanding of Spectrum, I’ve always seen her as being FTL, sure. But 16,000 times faster than light? That just seems like hyperbole, and an isolated instance. I’m inclined to believe that blink of an eye is Monica using a metaphor for her speed, rather than making an actual scientific calculation.
If we want to look at the Handbooks, Spectrum’s (then known as Pulsar) entry from the 2005 edition of the OHOTMU states that she can ‘reach velocities up to and including light-speed’ and lists her ‘Speed’ as being Rank 6. According to the OHOTMU key, this means that her speed levels are at light-speed, not warp-speed (or greater than light). I can buy her being FTL, but 16000x just seems extravagant.
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Now, if you can provide other quantifiable occasions where Spectrum is indeed shown to be moving at comparable speeds to this one panel, then I’ll agree. But as it stands, I question the validity of this showing. Even with ‘morals-off’, limitations are still limitations.
As it currently stands, I believe that my original strategy remains kosher. When Monica tries to charge for Despero in her light-form, Fernus’ FTL reflexes should more than enable him to intercept her with a telepathic strike. This attack will take Spectrum by surprise, and stun her long enough for my team to kill her.
But for the sake of covering all my bases, let’s address your points on Monica’s TP resistance. Firstly, I never mentioned mind-control at all, so I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Fernus is using a telepathic strike to intercept Spectrum, and then he and Despero will shut her powers off and kill her. Nothing to do with Monica’s power-selection at all.
As for Spectrum turning into electricity to disrupt Fernus’ powers, well, there are three issues here. The first one is: how will Spectrum know about Fernus’ telepathy? Again, zero knowledge here. Telepathy is instantaneous, it has no visual manifestation, and it’s unexpected. It's simply not an attack that one can physically react to, regardless of your speed. Fernus’ TP strike will hit Monica’s brain before she even thinks to switch to electricity.
The second issue is that electricity has never been shown to interfere with Martian telepathy, so even if Monica switches to that form, it won’t do any good. As stated by J’onn himself, Martian telepathy goes far beyond the mere telepathy of others. Why would electricity interfere with J’onn’s powers, when his brain can interface with biomachines without a problem?
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If electricity really interfered with Martian telepathy, J'onn wouldn't have been able to mentally communicate with Electric Blue Superman - a being made entirely of electromagnetic energy. They served together in about 20 issues of the 90s JLA series together, not to mention all the other times these two met (like the WildC.A.T.s crossover).
And since we’re on this topic, I might as well address your own scans as well:
1. This was not mind-control, Starfox was attempting to stimulate her ‘pleasure centers’ to coax an answer out of her. He was hardly seizing complete control of all her mental functions. Regardless, this feat is somewhat irrelevant given my points above.
2. Ms. Martian states that she has no luck ‘isolating’ him from the city’s crowd, not that her powers don’t work on him. And far as this scan itself goes, there’s no indication that Static used his powers to nullify telepathy here either. Also, Miss Martian’s abilities are nowhere near J’onn’s league – let alone Fernus.
3. Putting aside the question of whether the Anti-Life Equation is even similar to Martian TP; Static was under the control of the ALE for an extended period of time here. He was repeatedly put into the cage-matches of the Dark Side Club while under the ALE’s control. It was only with great effort in this one battle that he fought its effects, and only when he was enraged/bloodlusted. Point being that his ALE-resistance wasn't something that worked instantly or even to much effect. You can read about all this in Terror Titans.
4/5. Don’t quite see the relevance for these two scans, given my points above. Plus, don’t forget, once Fernus has dropped Monica, he’s going to team-up with Despero to turn off her powers, so there’s no ‘energy form’ to fall back on there.
The final issue is that Spectrum doesn’t have any feats indicating that her electrical form can indeed interfere with telepathy, or that she’s aware that such a tactic can be used against telepathy. Sure, you can posit that an electrical form can nullify TP, but you're not debating for Monica's powers here. You’re debating for Monica herself.
My Team vs. Darwin
On to Darwin. Now, my first counterpoint is this: My team will be nowhere near Darwin initially. How will he ‘see my team’s weaknesses’ when he can’t even physically spot them? And if Darwin attempts to close in on my team, the two flaws there are that 1) He doesn’t know their position and 2) His mobility is nowhere near my team’s FTL flight-speeds.
General proof that Despero's flight is FTL: 1) He keeps pace with Martian Manhunter as they both fly from the Watchtower on the Moon back to the Earth's surface in a matter of panels. 2) Despero flies from beyond the Moon back down to Earth in a few panels again.
And I don’t see how Darwin can hide from a telepathic scan. His reactive adaptation responds to threats – an instantaneous mind-reading is hardly life-and-death or cause for injury. It’s not a ‘disadvantageous situation’ like darkness either. And before you bring up the ability of ‘proactive adaptation’, how would Darwin even know that his mind was being read?
Mind-reading is not the same as telepathic messages. In the scan below, J’onn shape-shifts into a telepathic tree and reads the minds of everyone on Earth to locate a villain. And no one was screaming about a Green Martian reading their mind afterwards:
Alternatively, my team could very well use Nullify before activating a telepathic scan. Sure, we have no knowledge of Darwin’s abilities at this point, but since we already have the free perk – why not use it? Nullify has no apparent limitations of distance; so my team could just as easily shut off Darwin’s powers and then telepathically locate him.
As for the matter of Nullify’s selection; I don’t see why there’s a distinction being made there. Whether proactive or reactive, adaptation is still one powerset. That’s like me saying that you can Nullify Despero’s mind-control but you can’t affect his illusion-casting – they’re both still ‘telepathy’ at the end of the day. Adaptation should be classed as a singular ability. What's the ruling here, @cosmicallyaware1?
To close off, the problem with Darwin is that his powers are very broad and hypothetical. The argument that he could adapt his methods against Hela and WBN to use versus my team just don’t have much definitive evidence. ‘Should’ isn’t the same as ‘is’. It comes across as a possibility rather than a concrete tactic.
And as for Darwin adapting to Hela’s death-touch, nothing in the scans you posted indicates that transforming into a death god was a conscious choice on his part. If anything, the narration implies that they weren’t even sure what was going to happen to Darwin. Point being that there doesn’t seem to be an explicit mention that it was a decision – it could very well have been what his own mutation thought was the best way to adapt/survive.
Conclusion
In summary, I believe I have countered all of your argument's points, as well as providing a cogent case of my own for why Fernus & Despero can beat Spectrum & Darwin. To reiterate:
Until proven otherwise, Spectrum's flight speed is simply FTL, and Fernus certainly possesses the reaction-time to telepathically disable her.
Spectrum's 'electrical form' will provide zero resistance to Martian telepathy, not to mention there's the question of whether or not it's a feasible strategy, or that Monica is even aware of such a tactic.
Darwin's adaptation powers - be they proactive or reactive - don't matter given my team's use of the Nullify perk.
Darwin's adaptation abilities are largely reliant on hypothetical guesses as to their application.
And as for my own team's strategy: When Spectrum tries to speed-blitz Despero, Fernus will intercept her with his FTL reflexes and ground Monica with a telepathic strike. In the confusion, Fernus & Despero will cut off her brain's access to her powers, before killing her. From a distance that Darwin can't reach, my team will then use Nullify on Darwin before telepathically finding his location. Within the 5 seconds that he's been depowered, my team's FTL flight-speed will enable them to eliminate him before his abilities return.
With all that said, I pass the mic back to you, DR.
1. Looking at the full feat, It's still not the same as you said and certainly isn't a FTLx8 feat. Differences:
1. MMH knew the ship's directory and it was in his sight.
2 Spectrum won't be visible like the ship was nor will Jonn know where she is
3. Jonn was behind the ship for a few seconds and had ample time to focus and more than the 300-400 milliseconds (speed of thought) to use his TK.
4. Spectrum's blitz will be over before the nanosecond or at least second is up.
2. Marvel's handbooks are very shaky and tend not to be exactly correct. IIRC Marvel's handbook lists Blade at 1 ton when he has 5-7 ton feats and has overpowered people who've overpowered Spider-Man.
As seen here: http://marvel.wikia.com/Eric_Brooks_%28Earth-616%29
Also lists his speed at 2 when he's outsped vampires who've blitzed Spider-Man and has easily contended with Vampire Spider-Man as well. And Spider-Man himself only has a 3 when he's outrun bullets before. So Marvel rankings aren't exactly correct.
As for other quantifiable feats...Monica doesn't exactly show up a lot. She's limited with feats and doesn't have many QUANTIFIABLE feats on that level. She tends to stick to lightspeed since it's usually from earth to moon and so on. I don't see why her own statement can't be taken as a feat since even if she meant a second, she'd still be at least 5x faster than light.
But regardless, MMH hasn't ever used his TP at lightspeed. He always need time to do so and doesn't have any feats from what I remember of him having FTL thoughtspeed. Even the feat you showed gave him several seconds or more to react to the lightspeed object.
My scans
1. I wasn't talking about Starfox. Look at what Mephisto says on the bottom of the scan. She's being mindcontrolled by Mephisto, and she still was able to consciously choose to use her powers.
2. I'd need proof that Miss Martian, someone who's the same general race as Jonn doesn't have abilities on his level. And not being able to sense/isolate someone points to the fact that your TP won't work on them. If you can't even sense someone, how can you invade their mind? That wouldn't make sense.
3. Yeah he was under the control for a time, but point is he broke out. And that's something that can be used to destroy/control a planet's worth if not more people.
4. I don't see Fernus or Despero even seeing or reacting to Monica but...I definitely don't see them turning off her powers. Firestorm is connected to an outside source, Monica hasn't been confirmed either way (there's been theories on her being connected to some weird dimension or w/e) so I'd need to see MMH cut off someone like Superman or Flash (Supes as innate powers, Flash has extradimensional sources but it's also inside his body). Firestorm's not quite the same as Monica.
Does Monica know that? Hard to tell, but she's the leader of the Avengers, friends with Black Panther and Thor, so she should know something. She's never actually been confronted with much mind control to my knowledge, but it's a fairly simple concept. electrical impulses in the brain are what thoughts and the like are, so overloading that with electricity would only make sense against a telepathic assault.
Regardless, you can't cut off her powers or get her out of energy form so you'd have to either release her and allow her to destroy you, or leave one of your people there while the other goes to lose to Darwin.
Then again this is all useless since none of your guys have feats for using TP FTL.
Darwin
1, Huh? I didn't say he'd see your weaknesses from 10 miles away, I said he'd see them when you blitz him and try to attack him.
2. I already showed/proved how it doesn't have to be life threatening or even a threatening situation (like being in a dark room, or being smarter to impress his mom), it just has to be something he wants or something that might be a minor inconvenience. I mean he's also learned a language just from being near it (Shi'ar) and yes, having your mind read is ALWAYS disadvantageous. It allows someone to get to your weaknesses, strengths, private thoughts, etc. It's disadvantageous in and out of battle. Which falls under something his adaptation would block/counter.
So you won't ever know what Darwin's powers are until it's too late.
3. I guess you'll have to wait for CA1's decision, but...I argue that it's 2 different powers. Same way I can't nullify your "psychic powers" and take out TP, TK, etc., you shouldn't be able to nullify all of Darwin's adaptations.
4. The scans with Hela just help prove that his adaptations mold to what he wants at the time. He wanted to save his friend and thus absorbed her powers instead of teleporting away, turning intangible (which would make the most sense when dealing with a death touch and so on.
Darwin's adaptations have always been tailored to his wants, and given that he's bloodlusted and morals off, your team's gonna die very very quickly.
Then again, you guys can't even get past Monica so....
So Overall:
You need some feats of Jonn using his TP at lightspeed, not after a few seconds or having time to react. If he's even a nanosecond too late, then she's inside Despero destroying him from the interior and blowing up his brain.
You need feats of Jonn depowering people with actual similar powers of Monica and not someone like Firestorm
Until then you can't react to Monica with TP nor can you hurt her in energy form
Darwin's adaptations will protect him from a telepathy scan and any of your other powers
You have to choose to Nullify one of Darwin's adaptation abilities
We have to wait on CA1 to make decisions on Nullify (do we or the team use it, how much can it nullify? etc.)
I disagree with your points on Martian Manhunter’s FTL feat. For starters, there’s no indication he was aware of the ship’s direction or that it was in his sight. Remember that J’onn was pushed out of the ship in a surprise-attack, so he didn’t keep his bearings. In the following pages, the ship is never shown on-panel, implying it has flown a great distance away already.
J’onn is never shown to have kept an eye on the ship as it flew off, his focus was entirely on saving Gypsy. And I don’t understand your argument for Manhunter’s TK either. He was chasing an object at FTL speeds and then secured the object with a TK grip. Ergo, J’onn was thinking/reacting at FTL speeds. You can’t apply human limitations to Martians.
Fernus doesn’t think at human speed-levels of thought. He’s a being that operates on a far greater scale than humanity; his nerve-conduction is a lot faster than ours. As for Spectrum, why wouldn’t she be visible? Monica travels as a shining beam of light. That’s why her codename’s ‘Photon’ or ‘Spectrum’ – she’ll be a bright line heading for my team.
And as for her speed, based on present showings, Spectrum’s – at best – a little over the speed of light, and still less than Martian Manhunter’s own reaction-time. There’s really nothing preventing Fernus from intercepting her blitz with a telepathic attack.
On Handbooks: While I do agree that there are some entries that are incorrectly-written, Spectrum’s certainly isn’t one. If you can’t produce a feat of her flying MFTL, then far as I can tell, her Handbook entry is accurate. And for the record, I’m talking about the Marvel Handbooks, not the Marvel Wiki. The site doesn’t even list a source for its 1-ton claim on Blade's strength.
Here’s my take on the matter: the Handbook entries are the authoritative work on the character’s limitations, unless there have been multiple occasions where it’s been shown otherwise. And if you can’t produce a single MFTL showing from Spectrum’s 300+ appearances in the Marvel U, then I think we can all agree that she’s just a little over lightspeed at best.
And far as my Task Force feat is concerned, it did indeed show Martian Manhunter reacting to an object moving at x8 the speed of light. I don’t see why you claim that he had ‘several seconds’ to react to a lightspeed object – to be honest, I’m not even sure what that means. Martian brains operate at a far greater speed than human brains do.
A TK grip isn’t like pulling the trigger to a bullet, a TK grip is the psychic equivalent of physically reaching out to grab something. For J’onn to have seized the ship via TK, he would have had to have FTL reflexes/thought-speed to psychically grip the object in motion.
Your Scans
1. Oohkay…I don’t know if we’re reading the same scans here. Where does it say that she’s being mind-controlled by Mephisto – matter of fact, where is Mephisto? I think you might be confusing the Vision for Mephisto here, given that they both have red faces and huge collars…
2. I don’t see why you’d need proof of the matter when Miss Martian has never shown feats on J’onn’s level. By your line of logic, every human being is as strong as one another or as smart as everyone else. Just because they come from the same species doesn’t mean they have the same skill and experience levels. This is before I even bring up the fact that she’s technically a White Martian, not a Green one. And her being unable to isolate Static’s mind doesn’t mean her TP doesn’t work on him; it just means that she’s not skilled enough to isolate one mind in a crowded city. And again, nothing in this page indicates that Static’s powers even nullify TP.
3. No, the point is that it took a great deal of effort on Static’s part and was an isolated incident, not something he could repeatedly do. The implication here being that electricity – at best – only provides a limited defense against the Anti-Life Equation. It doesn’t make you immune, and it doesn’t generally interfere with it either. And again, how comparable is the ALE to Martian telepathy in the first place? Sure, they’re both capable of mind-control; but one’s a superpower while the other’s a mathematical formula.
4. As I covered in my first post, the basic idea is that my team will be cutting off Monica’s powers. If not from a power-source like Firestorm, then by introducing mental blocks or telepathically preventing her from activating her powers. This is not against the tournament’s rules, and is a perfectly feasible countermeasure. In fact, 'weakening' and 'influencing' via TP are perfectly kosher, as the thread's conditions state.
Given the fact that Fernus was able to rewire brains and make the insane villains of Arkham Asylum into sane citizens…I have no doubt he can telepathically prevent Spectrum’s brain from tapping into her powers, or even make her ‘forget’ about her abilities. It’s not about turning off her powers. It’s about turning off her brain’s ability to use them.
Bear in mind that Regular Martian Manhunter could only make Joker sane for a few moments, while Fernus made it a permanent change. That should tell you about the sheer power and skill of Fernus’ TP. Regardless, this is more of a footnote in my argument. Even if it fails, it won’t affect my overarching strategy.
As for Monica’s knowledge of using electricity to interfere with TP (which, again, doesn’t work), that’s all just pure guesswork on your part. Unless she’s been shown on-panel to have used such a tactic, there’s no proof that it’ll even come to mind. You can say that Spectrum’s ‘leader of the Avengers’ and all, but theory and application are two very different things.
And no offense to Spectrum, but she’s been portrayed as someone who doesn’t really understand the full scope of her abilities. I mean, there’s even a running plot thread in Black Panther Vol. 4 of T’Challa reminding her how she can use her powers. In fact, his exact words were: “You use your powers in such mundane ways, it makes me sad.”
Regardless, I’ve already addressed the issue of electricity vs. telepathy, and so far you haven’t refuted my arguments either. Even if Monica switches to electrical form, there’s no evidence that it’ll do anything against Fernus’ telepathy. If that were the case, J’onn wouldn’t have been able to communicate with Electric Blue Superman or interface with machines.
As for her energy form, I doubt my team has to resort to cutting off Spectrum’s powers, actually. A single TP strike from one of the most powerful telepaths in the DCU…against a heroine with zero telepathic resistance and minimal experience with mental attacks? The TP attack should be powerful enough to shatter her concentration, reverting Monica back to her standard form.
Case in point, in the following scans, Martian Manhunter is able to stop a battle-royale between multiple superheroes with a single telepathic strike. Do note that Maxima – one of the DCU’s most notable telepaths – was also affected by J’onn’s telepathic stun. This is what Regular J'onn does when he's relaxed and simply trying to calm his fellow heroes. Imagine what Fernus can do with all his power and lack of morals at his disposal.
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My Team vs. Darwin
In the time that it takes for my team to blitz and destroy Darwin, do you really think that he has the reaction-time to respond, much less even see my team? Darwin’s adaptation powers are nullified, and unless his standard eyes are good enough to spot two FTL objects in motion, this ‘weakness’ power is effectively useless.
And if Darwin has to ‘want something’ to adapt, how would he adapt to mind-reading then? Again, mind-reading is something that Fernus can do without Darwin even realizing it. Without being consciously-aware of it, would Darwin’s body even adapt? You’ve also neglected to note that my team could very well use Nullify before telepathically locating him.
Your telekinesis analogy is also flawed. The only thing TP and TK have in common are that both come from the mind. That’s like saying heat-vision and x-ray vision are the same thing as both come from the eyes. Proactive and reactive adaptation only differ in whether Darwin consciously uses it or not, but in practical application, they do the exact same thing.
As for the Hela scans: nothing in the panels points to it being a conscious decision on Darwin’s part. What are the indications? The fact that Darwin wanted to tank the attack isn’t a prerequisite for him choosing his adaptation. The panel implies that he tanked Hela’s death-touch, and simply trusted that his adaptation would somehow find a way to save him.
And the fact of the matter is that Darwin has an extremely vague powerset – particularly in the context of a debate. To say that he can use these isolated instances of adaptation against power-types he’s never used them against before (i.e. Despero and Fernus’)…well, it’s hypothetical, to say the least.
Conclusion
To reiterate:
I have already provided a feat of Martian Manhunter/Fernus reacting to an object moving at 8x the speed of light. The speed of the ship is significantly greater than Spectrum’s flight speed.
You have yet to provide a feat of Spectrum moving at MFTL speeds, thus making your earlier claim erroneous. As the majority of her feats and her Handbook entry show – her maximum speed is, at best, slightly over the speed-of-light. Meaning that her flight speed is evidently slower than Fernus’ reaction time.
Fernus will not be depowering Monica, he will simply be preventing her brain from accessing her powers. There is a distinction here, though I should stress that this does not play a key role in my overall strategy.
Spectrum’s counter-tactic of turning into an electrical form to disrupt Fernus’ TP is not a valid option, as I’ve already detailed. It’s not effective versus Martian telepathy, and Monica doesn’t have the knowledge/time to execute it.
In short, Fernus is perfectly capable of reacting to Spectrum, and his telepathic strike will shatter her concentration, reverting her back to human form, and leave her open for the subsequent illusions/death.
Darwin can’t adapt to something he’s not aware of, so my team’s telepathic scan will be effective. In addition, my team could very well use Nullify before telepathically locating him, as the Perk has no apparent limitations of distance.
‘Adaptation’ is one powerset. It has two methods of application, but it should be classed as one ability in its own terms. While we’re still waiting for Cos to come to a decision on this, trying to separate it into two powers just seems like hair-splitting to me.
1. I'm saying that it's not applicable here because he had more time to focus and use his TK. Against the ship he was already flying FTL, and perceiving something fast is a lot easier when you're moving nearly as fast. It's like when you're riding in a car, seeing another car zoom by at 100 MPH looks slower than if you see it while you're on foot.
In this case MMH isn't moving, he doesn't have as much time to focus and use his TK or TP and you haven't really supplied a feat that shows he can do so. You'd have to show him using TP or TK to STOP a blitz before it happens essentially. Otherwise it's not FTL reaction speeds.
2. I said she wouldn't be visible simply because she's moving too fast. I mean she could also travel in neutrinos form, but that doesn't have a stated speed so....eh either way.
3. But I did produce a feat of her flying FTL. And your only counter was the handbook which is wrong more than it's right.
4. What I mean by having several seconds is that he had time to talk, think, fly and try and keep up with the ship, etc. before grabbing it with TK. It's a feat of him already in motion. If you provided a feat with him standing perfectly still and stopping a FTLx8 ship then it'd be applicable.
My stuff
1. Yeah not Mephisto, my bad, but Vision still says how she's not under her own control and yet still uses X-ray powers to expose a chip on her (that's controlling her btw)
2.
She's read the titans minds from across the planet which is very comparable to Jonn. And yet she still couldn't sense Static. Plus I know she's been complimented by Jonn before and even hinted to be near or above his level if she goes all out.
3. I'd actually argue that ALE's mind control is more powerful given it's origins and who tends to use it. Regardless, both are mind control and thus function very similar.
4. Well..you haven't produced any feats of producing mental blocks of such a nature. You showed him cutting off someone from a source and then tried to relate that to making mental blocks? Doesn't add up. At least not to me. Unless that scan is something different.
5. All of that turning people sane stuff is cool but...it has absolutely nothing to do with shutting off someone's power. Just saying. And Monica uses her powers just fine and in very creative ways, a statement from Black Panther doesn't really change that.
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Darwin Stuff
1. His powers won't be nullified because you won't know what they are by your own interpretation of the rule (still waiting on @cosmicallyaware1 for that). His powers have protected him from unknown ailments that he hasn't known about before and things that don't harm him at all (such as seeing in the dark, getting brick-like fist just because he wants to beat up bullies, being smarter to impress his mom). At least 2 of those were things he wasn't aware of and mind reading is no different. It won't work.
2. Darwin doesn't have to 'want' to adapt, adaptation saves him before he wants it, it also tailors towards his wants aka he can influence it. He 'wanted' to die once, it didn't let him. So it's not always based off of what he wants, just what helps him in the situation. Mind reading won't work on Darwin because it is a disadvantage for him and the nature of his powers try to correct/fix disadvantages.
3. Him wanting to save his friend influenced the adaption clearly. There were thousands of ways to adapt to a death touch (teleportation, intangibility, etc.) but it chose to drain her powers. So it was obvious influenced by his decision.
4. Thus you have no way to put Darwin down. You can at best nullify one of his adaptation abilities for 5 seconds, but not the other, and that's only after he's used it on one of your team members and taken you down. Why only one? That's like me nullifying your ability to use all psionic energy instead of just TP or TK. It's one giant powerset that grants subsets that also have subsets within their subsets of power. You can't just pick the biggest one, or I could nullify your ability to live.
So in Conclusion
You have no FTL Telepathy or Telekinesis feats, only feat is a travel feat and took far longer than a nanosecond or even a second to perform
No feats to create mental blocks to shut off people's powers
No counter to Darwin's multiple ways to adapt or even a way to read his mind as he adapts to things he's not aware of ALL THE TIME
Thus you can't counter Spectrum's speed or Darwin's abilities, giving us an easy win
To be frank, I still don’t see much of a distinction. Here’s the difference that I think you’re overlooking, DR: When people say a character has ‘FTL flight speed’, it refers solely to their travel speed. Whether or not the character is FTL in combat speed is another case entirely. As in, whether or not the character can physically fight opponents at that speed-level.
But we’re not discussing physical speed in Fernus’ case, we’re discussing mental speed here. Because Fernus isn’t looking to punch Spectrum, or grab her – he’s going to fire off a telepathic burst from his brain. It’s not the speed of his physical movement that’s the topic of our disagreement, it’s the speed of his thought-processes.
Consider this: If J’onn can catch up to a ship that’s steadily moving away at 8x the speed of light…If J’onn can fly and direct himself at FTL speeds…if he can carry a telepathic conversation while moving at that speed…wouldn’t it stand to reason that he can fire off a telepathic attack at FTL speeds as well? Since simply put, Fernus can think at those speeds.
If he can form coherent thoughts while moving at FTL speeds, why wouldn’t he be able to launch a telepathic strike – which is essentially just a thought? You are right in that J’onn’s flight allows him to better perceive the ship. But Spectrum’s flight is nowhere near the ship’s speed, making it all the more easier for Fernus to aim and fire off a TP strike at her.
At any rate, even if we reimagine this scenario with your stipulations, there’s still a pretty simple counter for that. You’ve said that Martian Manhunter only reacted to that ship because he was moving nearly as fast as it was…so what’s preventing him from repeating the same actions against Spectrum’s blitz here?
Say Spectrum blitzes for Despero’s position. Considering J’onn was able to perceive and chase after a ship moving at 8x the speed of light, Fernus should be able to spot Spectrum and blitz towards her at light-speeds himself. When flying towards her at light-speeds – per your own observation – Fernus moves fast enough that he can perceive Spectrum better.
With that given delay due to the similarity of their speeds, Fernus has enough time to fire off a telepathic burst. Martian Manhunter can rapidly hit speeds close to 8x the speed of light, as well as perceive objects moving at this rate. You say that Manhunter’s not in motion here, so what’s preventing him from simply flying towards Monica in this battle?
And if a stationary Manhunter can – after having saved Gypsy – still be able to spot and locate a ship moving at 8x the speed of light, I think it’s fair to say that Fernus will see Spectrum flying towards Despero. Spectrum’s top speed is around a little over lightspeed, so she’ll certainly be visible to everybody’s favorite Martian.
Plus, no, I’ve already addressed your ‘blink of the eye’ scan. Once more, Handbooks should be considered the authority on a character unless there have been multiple occasions that contradict the entry. Considering you’ve only been able to produce one single vague and really questionable feat where Monica likely wasn’t even MFTL, I stand by assessment.
Your Scans
1. Alright, then, who put the chip there? What does it do? To what extent does it control Monica’s actions? Is she entirely dependent on a controller to command her every move like a puppet? Or can she move on her own, but is simply brainwashed to follow orders? But most importantly – what does this have to do with the larger debate? I’ve never even mentioned ‘brainwashing' in my strategy, so unless I’m missing something, I don’t see the relevance of this scan.
2. Miss Martian can read the Titans’ minds from across the planet? J’onn can simultaneously read every mind on the planet, period. J’onn can penetrate the psychic defenses of cosmic-level threat Mageddon. J’onn entered the Spectre’s mind and forced him into the astral plane. J’onn can cause a telepathic hallucination in reality-warper Joseph Stinton. When has Miss Martian ever shown TP feats on the level of Martian Manhunter? And again, remember, Fernus is a lot stronger than Regular J’onn.
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J'onn breaching the psychic defenses of Mageddon (1)
A second scan of J’onn reading the minds of everyone on the planet (2)
J’onn forcibly entering the Spectre’s mind and pulling him into the astral plane (3, 4)
J’onn causing a telepathic hallucination to reality-warper Joseph Stinton (5, 6)
And just to put an icing on the cake, let’s bring up the Martian villain D’Kay. D’Kay possesses enough telepathic power to read billions of minds instantly. Miss Martian fought her in a psychic battle and was entirely helpless against her:
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Then Martian Manhunter kicks D’Kay’s butt by summoning the thoughts of everyone on Earth (while he was on Mars), blasts her with them, and then uses his FTL speed to fly her to the sun – destroying her.
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The point of the matter is that Miss Martian’s telepathic skill is not even in the same zip code as Martian Manhunter’s, let alone Fernus. She has no feats even putting her on the same power level – her greatest showing is what, stalemating Supergirl? Where on your scan does it state that Static’s electricity made him TP-proof, and not Miss Martian’s own inability?
And again, like the previous scan, I ask – what’s the greater relevancy of your argument with this one scan? We’ve established that Martian Manhunter’s TP is not affected by electricity (J’onn's TP, not Green Martians in general or even White Martians). We’ve established that Monica has never used an electrical form against TP. So what does arguing this achieve?
3. There really isn’t much tying the ALE to Martian telepathy, but aside from that, you didn’t exactly refute my original points. I.e. electricity only provides a limited and faulty defense against the Equation.
4. The key aspect that you’re missing is that Fernus didn’t neuter the Firestorm matrix or disable the source. What he did was cut off Ronnie Raymond’s telepathic connection to it. Fernus created a mental block. In that same vein, why wouldn’t he be able to repeat this tactic with Spectrum? It doesn’t matter if Spectrum’s powers aren’t derived from a power-source, Fernus isn’t affecting the source – he’s affecting the brain. It’s like mental manipulation. If Fernus can control your brain and prevent you from moving your hands…why wouldn’t he be able to prevent you from using your powers? Using powers is just the same as any other movement…it requires a command from the brain. That’s what Fernus is disabling.
5. Again, it’s all in the brain. The Arkham Asylum feats show that Fernus was able to cause lobotomies and mass-personality rewrites telepathically. If he can influence brains to such a degree, why can’t he prevent Monica from doing something as simple as telling her hands to fire an energy blast? It’s the same principle.
As for your scans on Spectrum’s ‘creativity’…well, every single one of those scans you used comes from Nextwave. That book was written as a comedic take on the Marvel Universe, and the series’ canon status is dubious at best. Nextwave was written to be non-canon by Ellis, and the entire book has multiple continuity violations. I believe Quesada himself said that it was non-canon.
Case in point: Funny as it may be, the real Fin Fang Foom would never do this...
Your usage of those scans? Shaky, to say the least. And you were the one who first brought up Monica’s relationship to T’Challa as an argument for her knowledge of her powers. Now you’re going to discount a statement made by the same T’Challa claiming that Monica doesn’t know how to use her abilities?
Still, all this is vestigial to my arguments: Spectrum switching to an electrical form is not a feasible counterstrategy for Fernus’ telepathy. It doesn’t affect Martian TP, and Monica has no awareness of this tactic whatsoever. Not to mention a single telepathic strike is more than enough to shatter Monica’s concentration, forcing her revert out of her energy form.
My Team vs. Darwin
All those instances you listed were not situations where Darwin was ‘unaware’. He was unable to see in the dark, ergo he grew night-vision. He wanted to beat up bullies, he grew brick-hands. He wanted to impress his mom, his intelligence increased. Every one of those occasions had Darwin’s conscious desire, whether the adaptation was proactive and reactive.
So if Fernus read his mind telepathically to determine his location or powers, and Darwin had no knowledge of such an action, why would Darwin’s adaptation react at all? Show me a single instance where Darwin’s body adapted to a condition that he had zero knowledge of. And for the record, you were the one who said Darwin had to ‘want’ something, not me.
Now you’ve said: “It’s not always based off what he wants, just what helps him in this situation.” By that logic, how would you know that stealing Hela’s powers was a conscious decision? Darwin could’ve thought, “I want to protect my friends”, and his adaptation interpreted that by stealing Hela’s powers because it was the most effective way.
In other words, there’s no indication that Darwin went “I want to protect my friends so I should absorb Hela’s powers” so much as “I want to protect my friends”, and then his body stole Hela’s powers.
And if draining Hela’s powers only worked because he wanted to save his friend, what makes you think that he could influence his adaptation in our debate? He’s not saving anyone here, so why would he absorb my team’s powers? If Darwin could really trigger this particular adaptation at will, and use it proactively, then why hasn’t he been stealing the powers of everyone he meets since that issue?
‘Psionic’ is just another way of saying ‘powers that come from the mind’. Again, the only similarity that TP and TK have is that they both use the brain. The actual powers themselves do different things. Whereas proactive and reactive adaptation do the exact same thing – they adapt. The superpower itself is identical, it’s just the mode that differs.
And ‘nullify my ability to live’ is a little silly, friend. Living and being a biotic organism isn’t actually a superpower, you know…
But alright, for the sake of argument, let’s try your hypothetical scenario. Let’s say that proactive and reactive adaptation are two different powersets. Fernus telepathically reads Darwin’s location as well as his abilities, and with no knowledge of such an action, Darwin doesn't react to it. Fernus then goes on to use Nullify to remove Darwin’s proactive adaptation.
At which point Fernus and Despero then use their FTL flight to speed-blitz Darwin and tear his head from his neck. So, in that split-second that it takes for my team to kill Darwin, can Darwin’s body develop a reactive adaptation before he’s killed? Has his body ever developed a defensive adaptation at light-speeds? How will he use his weakness-vision here?
Even in your own conditions, Darwin still loses badly. Darwin’s ultimate flaw is that his reactive adaptation depends on external effects to trigger a response. By the time Darwin’s body senses Despero’s fist punching him at FTL speeds, it will be too late for his mutation to adapt. Like his fight with Worldbreaker Hulk, Darwin simply can’t adapt fast enough here.
Conclusion
I feel like I’m drilling the same points over and over again with the conclusions, so I’ll keep it short this time around. Essentially, my team wins because we can neuter your team’s strategy before it even begins. Spectrum’s blitz will fail on account of her lack of speed, as well as Fernus’ telepathic burst. From that point on, Monica’ll be dead before she can even respond.
My team then has the means to extract intel on Darwin without his knowledge, and our perk nullifies his greatest asset – adaptation. Even in the event that Darwin retains his reactive adaptation, his reflexes and mutation still don’t work fast enough to prevent a FTL speed-blitz that will again, kill him before he even responds.
Fernus & Despero take this battle because, quite simply, they’re quicker on the draw.
1. Yeah you showed a feat only for Fernus (actually MMH but w/e)'s physical speed. Your scan showed him physically keep up with a FTLx8 speed in travel speed and keep it in his sights for a few seconds, long enough for entire paragraphs of thoughts and conversations to happen, and then he used TK. That doesn't pertain to this battle at all.
Spectrum's not gonna be flying for a long time waiting for MMH to catch up with her and finally use TK seconds later. It's a quick nanosecond or less blitz where Despero dies. That's it.
Travel speed+thinking doesn't mean you think at lightspeed or FTL speeds. It hasn't been accepted for the likes of Thor on this sight, and MMH doesn't get special rules. Not to mention I have 1 scan of her going over 16,000 times the speed of light, and you have 1 scan of a FTLx8 travel speed feat and somehow my scan doesn't count and yours does. Nah, don't work that way.
All you showed was that while flying at FTL speed (travel) MMH can think and use his powers. You would need to provide a feat of him activating his telepathy in less than a nanosecond for it to apply here.But you haven't, so the feat is useless.
And again, handbooks are literally wrong more than they're right.
My scans
1. She's being mind controlled by a chip, that's all I know. That was to show that even with mental tampering, she can choose to use her powers in a certain way, ergo electricity which has been proven to disrupt TP.
2. Don't care about those feats tbh. You claimed Miss Martian sucks since she couldn't isolate Static from a crowd, but I just showed her isolating the titans from the entire EARTH, meaning that it is in fact his electricity powers interfering. That's all. The rest is useless to this debate. And Monica has used electricity on She-Hulk to try and shock her out of mind control before, so I think she knows.
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3. Limited is all that's needed here since your TP is also limited.
4. But Monica doesn't have a telepathic connection to her powers. Cutting off a telepathic connection isn't = creating a mental block. So again, not relevant. And of course the whole "there's only one scan of this, I have one scan of her moving 1600x FTL and you won't accept it" thing. And the rest of that stuff is just unproven theory.
5. Lobotomies and insanity cure =\= mental block on powers. No matter how you look at it. Plus that'd be the incapacitation stuff that's against the rules so...yeah it doesn't matter either way.
6. Being friends with smart people and leaders and people who have electrical protection against TP should help one know that TP is hurt by electricity yes. Does a statement of BP's opinion that she doesn't use her powers right matter? Not really. Especially since she's used them creatively since ever.
Are the scans non-cannon? Unknown to me, guess I'll show others.
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Changing frequencies to get past Magneto's forcefields, phasing and heat, becoming a freaking nebula storm, making illusions using light, and suffocating a guy with his own anti-matter forcefield. That 'creative' enough?
Darwin
1. Wrong. Darwin didn't know consciously that he wanted to impress his mom and get smarter, that was a subconscious desire. Same with the brick hands, he just wanted to beat up bullies, that's unconscious and unaware. He didn't even know he had powers at the time.
2. I never said Darwin had to 'want' something. I said he can influence his adaptation with what he 'wants'. You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't type. Mind reading is a minor telepathic assault, it's intrusive and something almost no one wants (see: reaction to any and everyone when psychics read their minds without their permission). It falls under subconscious things that his adaptations would cover.
3. I said Hela's stealing powers was influenced by his wants. He didn't literally want to steal her power, but the adaptation that occurred was based on him wanting to save his friends (instead of going intangible or teleporting away). That's it.
4. You nullify pro-active adaptation? Cool you've made your choice. Now not only does that mean your telepathic scan failed (so you wouldn't even know tbh) but Darwin's reactive adaptation is instant. And taking off his head does nothing. As shown earlier, taking out his body does nothing as it just makes a new one.
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He's also adapted to expose skrulls without his knowledge (just accidentally touched one) as in he was unaware, but that scan is hard to find right now in english....I do have it in spanish...
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That's a telepath failing to detect he's a skrull, and then Darwin's adaptation exposing the Skrull just by a touch, Darwin running away at super speeds from a fight, reforming from goop, and a bullet bouncing off of him. The last few were just for kicks and 3/5 are in spanish but w/e.
And you're very wrong, his reactive adaptation doesn't need time or anything to react it simply makes him immortal. He's had his head blown off and he was fine so....if that's your plan, then Darwin definitely solos even without Monica's speedblitzing and solo'ing you herself.
And the fight with WWHulk was pure PIS unless you think Hulk>Hela and the M'Kraan crystal aka the nexus of all reality.
Conclusion
You showed a travel feat with no quantifiable time or reaction to take from it. That has nothing to do with Monica blitzing you in less than a nanosecond
Electricity has been proven to partially disrupt TP and given that you won't expect it, it should shock you out of her mind for at least a second (enough for her to kill you)
You still haven't provided anything to say you can shut off powers or create mental blocks
Darwin's adaptations easily trump you and you have no way to counter him (only hold him off for 5 seconds) or to kill him (since Death itself couldn't do it)
We win due to your inability to counter Monica's speed (from feats you've shown at least) and Darwin's adaptations
J’onn can instantly hit FTL speeds (look at the D’Kay scans I posted where he went from Mars to the Sun in a few panels). I really doubt he’ll have a problem blitzing Spectrum and hitting her with a TP strike. Monica’s top speed is a little over lightspeed at best, a far cry from Fernus’ casual FTL flight. He doesn’t need any time to outrace and tag her with a TP attack before she reaches Despero.
And that’s only if we even assume that Fernus can’t react to a lightspeed object while stationary himself. If he can control his flight path, hold conversations, and form coherent thoughts while moving at speeds greater than light, I don’t see why Fernus would have any trouble directing what is essentially a thought at Spectrum.
Not really. That’s just a blanket statement, to say that Handbooks are ‘more wrong than they’re right’. And what exactly is wrong in Spectrum’s Handbook entry? You haven’t produced scans that contradict it, all you have is one non-quantifiable panel. That’s just a generalization to excuse the fact that you can’t produce a feat refuting the Handbook.
Your MFTL scan is invalid because it doesn’t have an explicit claim to Spectrum’s speed. Mine quite clearly states the ship is moving at x8 the speed of light. Yours just has ‘blink of an eye’, which could mean anything from a second to a vague short time. It’s not concrete.
Your Scans
1. Not really, there’s a distinction to be made there. ‘Mental tampering’ isn’t a catch-all term for any form of mind-control. If the chip only brainwashed Spectrum with orders, but still allowed her to move and fight on her own terms, then obviouslyshe’d be able to choose which powers to use. Unless the chip is stated to have seized complete control of her body, and that all her actions are under the command of someone else…I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to select her powers. And I still don’t see the relevance here. Fernus isn’t trying to control her, he’s just firing off a single TP burst. This is before we even consider the fact that a tiny computer chip of unknown origin is nowhere near the level of J’onn’s telepathic control.
2. You missed out the greater point of all those scans I posted. I didn’t put them there so my post would have pretty pictures. I was pointing out that J’onn’s telepathy works on a far greater level than Miss Martian’s. The relevance is that just because (hypothetically) electricity interferes with Miss Martian’s TP…doesn’t mean it’ll interfere with Fernus’. Fernus’ TP is a great deal stronger, and I’ve shown scans of him telepathically communicating with machines and Electric Blue Superman to explicitly show how electricity doesn’t interfere. You keep choosing to ignore these scans, and up till this point, I don’t think you’ve even acknowledged them. I really don’t know how much more direct I can be: electricity has never been shown to interfere with Fernus’ telepathy. I’m not talking about Miss Martian’s telepathy, or Marvel telepaths, or even comic-book telepathy in general. I’m talking specifically about J’onn. Even if Miss Martian was unable to read Static’s mind, there’s nothing that says Fernus wouldn’t be able to.
Plus, guess what a little research reveals about your Miss Martian scan? The reason why she couldn’t read Static’s mind wasn’t because his electricity made him TP-immune. It was because her powers had been affected by the Wyld. Since that battle, her control over her powers became erratic, and Miss Martian is later revealed to be suffering from a neural degeneration:
Teen Titans Vol. 3 #83
In that same issue where she couldn’t locate Static (Teen Titans Vol. 3 #79), she mentions feeling sick and worn out. In fact, in the exact same page, Miss Martian actually mentions that she once overheard Static thinking about his best friend – proving that her telepathy does work on Static’s mind.
Later in the issue, Miss Martian’s powers fritz out again when a telepathic strike meant for Holocaust hits Raven by accident. She didn't even have enough strength with her TP strike to put down Holocaust. Throughout that story arc and since her battle with the Wyld, Miss Martian’s powers continue to be erratic and uncontrollable.
In summation, I believe I’ve definitively proven that electricity does not affect Martian telepathy to any degree. Your ‘electricity’ argument has zero merit. And your She-Hulk scan is redundant now, considering the points I’ve just made. Even if Spectrum were to be aware of such a tactic, it wouldn’t do squat against Fernus’ telepathic strike.
3. That’s not a counterargument to any of my points. That’s just an empty statement.
4. There’s no distinction there. Fernus prevented Ronnie Raymond from accessing his powers by introducing a telepathic block. Fernus can prevent your brain from telling your arm to move – so why wouldn’t he be able to prevent your brain from telling your arm to fire an energy blast? If Fernus can seize complete mental control of an opponent, why wouldn’t he be able to telepathically prevent said opponent from doing certain things? It’s not unproven theory; it’s axiomatic logic. And you know what the difference is between this scan and your MFTL one? Your single scan was shaky and debatable, and you failed to provide any more evidence to support that one panel. My single scan of Fernus vs. Firestorm is solid, not to mention that I’ve already shown Fernus/J’onn displaying greater telepathic feats than this. If J’onn’s telepathy can affect cosmic threats like Mageddon and the Spectre, you really think he wouldn’t be able to do something as simple as prevent Spectrum from using her powers?
5. See above. Lobotomies and insanity-rewiring shows the extent of telepathic control that Fernus has over the human brain. If he can cause such drastic changes, again I ask, why wouldn’t he be able to telepathically stop Monica from accessing her powers? If Superman can punch through steel, ergo he can punch through brick. If Fernus can make the Joker sane, I’m pretty sure he can make Monica forget how to use her powers. And no, it’s not against the rules either. It’s not complete control of Spectrum, and the conditions already state that telepaths can ‘influence’ or ‘weaken’.
Once more, ‘should know’ is not the same as ‘does know’. It’s just a wild guess. And this wasn’t the point I was addressing either. I was noting that your instant discounting of Panther’s statement seems hypocritical. You implied that Monica’s friendship with Panther would influence her knowledge on her own powers, and you just acknowledged that he’s intelligent.
I showed how this very same Black Panther mentions that Monica doesn’t use her powers to their full potential. Now, am I saying that this is definitive proof that Spectrum’s an idiot? No, and as you yourself proved, she can fight smart. But a statement from the eighth smartest man in the MU certainly carries some weight, particularly since you brought him up first.
Though either way, this portion of your argument doesn’t really matter, on account of the fact that I’ve shown electricity as being entirely ineffective versus Fernus’ telepathy.
My Team vs. Darwin
No, you’re still missing the point – Darwin had knowledge in both those situations. Regardless of whether or not it was subconscious, the point was that those were all scenarios where he knew there was a problem. He wanted to impress his mom; he wanted to beat up the bullies. Both were situations where the problem, if not the solution, was evident to Darwin.
Again, in this case, a telepathic scan is not something that Darwin will be aware of, even for a moment. Fernus’ scan will take less than a second (considering J’onn can read the entire planet’s minds in a few seconds). Even if he knew, it’s not as though Darwin has enough time to develop an adaptation. Again, Darwin has to be aware of the problem before he adapts.
“I already showed/proved how it doesn’t have to be life-threatening or even a threatening situation, it just has to be something he wants or something that might be a minor inconvenience.” Your words, DR, not mine. I didn’t put any words in your mouth, friend. I’m just quoting what you said two posts ago.
And again, Darwin’s reactive adaptation relies on two factors. One is whether or not Darwin has a need for it. But the second is that Darwin has to be aware of the problem. He needs to know the cause before he can pull off the effect. You have yet to provide a single scan where Darwin’s adaptation reacted to something he had zero knowledge of.
Well if you’ve conceded that it was merely Darwin’s influence that led to him stealing Hela’s powers…not his own specific will, then again I ask you: how will he use that particular adaptation in this battle? You used this encounter to claim that Darwin could steal my team’s powers. In fact, that was the primary reason you even brought the Hela battle up.
If Darwin can’t influence this change because he has no friends to protect here, and if he’s never shown to proactively use this ability in another encounter…then I don’t see how Darwin will steal my team’s powers at all. At this point in time, the Hela scans seem irrelevant at best. You haven’t even provided a means for Darwin to defeat my team throughout this entire debate.
Whoa, slow your horses down, mate. Bear in mind that I never made a concession to your splitting of adaptation into two categories. I still maintain that it should be classed as one superpower. All I said was ‘for the sake of argument’ and ‘hypothetical scenario’. In that event, I would use Nullify to remove proactive as opposed to reactive adaptation.
And as nice as those two scans are, I don’t see how either one will save Darwin here. My team will be blitzing him at FTL speeds here. I don’t want to get into calculations, but the force behind a single strike would be enormous. ‘Take his head off’ was just a figure of speech on my part, a FTL speed-blitz would tear Darwin into a million pieces.
Mass increases at higher speeds et cetera...
Unless his reactive adaptation has ever grown a defensive power at speeds faster-than-light, unless Darwin has ever recovered from being reduced to a million tiny particles…I don’t see how he’ll survive my team’s attack at all. Regrowing a new head is a neat trick and all, but I don’t think his consciousness can adapt fast enough to survive the vaporization of his entire body.
As for those Skrull adaptation scans, again, ‘knowledge of the problem’. Darwin didn’t know to proactively develop an adaptation as the solution, but he knew that there were Skrull imposters. Presumably it was his knowledge that influenced his body to develop a power to expose Skrulls. Something he won’t have against Fernus’ mind-reading.
Closing Arguments (Why Fernus & Despero Win)
This will be my last post in our debate. To be frank, at this point in our exchange, I feel like we’ve been arguing in circles. I’ve been drilling the same points over and over again, and the repetition is beginning to get tedious. I’ll be finishing up with my closing arguments here, and you’re free to respond with your own if you wish to, before we move on to voting.
Here’s why Fernus & Despero will defeat Spectrum & Darwin:
1.Superior Speed: Your team’s first move will be intercepted. Spectrum’s top flight speed is lightspeed at best, a lot slower than Fernus’ casual FTL speeds. Either Fernus’ superior travel speed or reaction time will allow him to take her down with a telepathic attack. One strike should jolt Spectrum from her energy form, and stun her, opening her up for the subsequent illusions, power-neutering, and death.
2.Telepathic Dominance: Your team has zero defenses against telepathy. I’ve already shown how Martian telepathy is unaffected by electricity, so your suggestion for Monica to use an electric form has zero merit. And Darwin’s adaptive powers can’t protect him from a secret mind-reading that will take less than a second to complete, considering he has zero awareness of it.
3.Nullification: With Monica dead, all that’s left is Darwin. Nullify will get rid of his adaptation abilities, effectively rendering him more powerless for 5 seconds. That’s more than enough time for my team to FTL speed-blitz him, particularly as the mind-reading will have already determined Darwin’s location and abilities.
4.Contingencies: Even in the event that Fernus can’t intercept Spectrum while stationary, he can instantly hit FTL speeds to buy him enough time to TP her. And even if ‘adaptation’ was divided into ‘reactive’ and ‘proactive’, my team can still kill Darwin before his reactive adaptation develops any form of defense. My team has covered all its bases in every scenario.
1. You're not getting the point. I know Jonn can fly at FTL speeds. I know he can eventually react to FTL people, but you haven't shown him reacting or using TP within the timespan that Monica's blitz is happening. Now using your assertion that she's lightspeed, she's covering the 10 miles in about 10 nanoseconds, meaning he'll have exactly 1 nanosecond when he sees the streak of light (if she doesn't decide to go invisible instead) to activate TP and do w/e he's gonna do before she gets inside Despero and does her thing.
In your examples, it's always taken him WAAAAY longer than even a second to react, which'll be too late for him. By the time the second's over Despero is dead and she's likely already inside of him and he'll be dead within the microsecond.
So to summarize this speed thing:
You've only shown travel feats and not the necessary reaction feats needed to stop her mid blitz. It's that simple.
And P.S. if a blink of an eye (which is very measurable btw, it's 300 milliseconds or so) meant a second, that'd still be 1 billion miles per second which is at least 3.3x FTL. Just saiyan.
My scans
1. Electricity had an effect on her sensing Static and isolating him from a crowd. Considering the speeds Spectrum moves at, any effect or interference, no matter how small is gonna mess that entire TP plan up. Not to mention Static is someone with only residual electricity inside of him while Spectrum will be 100% made of lightning/electricity. I think the difference here will certainly provide interference with your TP.
2. Being better doesn't mean it doesn't interfere. Electricity interferes with Xavier's TP and he's planetary much like MMH. Being better/stronger just means you can do better against said interference. In this case it's useless since Spectrum's waaaay too fast for you to react to.
4. You're theorizing here. This is a battle of feats. Just saiyan. None of that is valid.
5. Again, theories and reaching. Show him stopping Flash or Superman or someone's power and then we can talk.
vs. Darwin
1. Wrong. My words said that it doesn't have to be life threatening or threatening or bad that he can will an adaptation just by wanting something. They don't say that every adaptation is based off of Darwin's wants. First and foremost, they act based off of his survival and comfort (in certain situations, such as the night vision one). He happens to also be able to will adaptations if he wants it bad enough.
2. Darwin does not need to be aware of the problem, he wasn't aware of the Skrull he exposed, more than likely he wasn't aware that he had no body, he wasn't even aware he was gonna have his head blown off. Yet he adapted to all of those instantly and without knowledge.
3. Take his head off is very literal. You can't change your argument now that I've countered it. And again, I've shown him regrow a head instantly and reform from goop, nothing you do can hurt him. And that's Superman, not MMH, not Despero, neither have shown that move in their entire comic book history.
Darwin didn't know that Longshot was skrull, he thought it was ridiculous. He was making a point by touching him and even says (I know it's in spanish so you can't read it maybe) that if he was a skrull, his powers would automatically deactivate his shapeshifting abilities and then...it happened.
Not sure why you're saying that MMH or Despero can punch Darwin into tiny molecules since not even an IMP has done that before. And he's recovered from less (literally nothing. He had no body and he made a new one) so I don't see that doing much.
Also you're glossing over one thing. Darwin does have knowledge of one thing in this fight, first he wants to kill you or w/e since he's bloodlusted and we just went over what happens when he wants something, but also he knows he's in a fight with 2 other people and thus his body and power will be aware of anything that can be disadvantageous in such a fight (you even acknowledged that just knowing the gist of a situation is apparently enough) such as .....a telepathic scan.
But it won't get that far tbh, Spectrum will just blitz your team since you don't have any feats of Jonn reacting or TP'ing within a nanosecond.
Closing: Why Spectrum or Darwin Can Solo
Spectrum
Speed
Speed
Speed
Versatile powers and duplication and stuff
More Speed that you haven't proven to be able to react to in time.
A nanosecond is all you have to TP her
Darwin
He adapts to everything proactively or reactively
He can take your powers away
Your telepathic scan won't even work on him
He can't die
His adaptation powers have conquered the likes of Hela (skyfather), M'Kraan Crystal (nexus of reality), and HAVING NO BODY (and making a new one)
He doesn't even have to know about the situation, his powers do it for him
So yep, that's why we win. Lack of reaction feats on your part (not getting past the Spectrum blitz) and no way to put down Darwin the Evolving Boy who is Immortal and adapted to Death itself.
@veshark: I think you took this very handily, though I was impressed by your illusion feats, I did not think some of the TP feats were really that relevant given the strict stipulations of the OP on TP.
My vote easily goes to @veshark here. His argument was much more substantial, well thought out and vastly better at resisting DarkRaiden's opposition. Plus I felt his counters punched holes easily in DarkRaiden's empty and quite baseless reasoning for this fight. Not to mention a more plausible strategy and superior use of his characters over Darwin and Spectrum and there was never a substantial counter to the TP and superspeed combo that Veshark didn't throw back in his face. Pretty conclusive outcome on Veshark as he actually countered his opponent's points rather than vice versa.
Overall better debating, strategy, and rebuttals. Just for a hint in the next (probably shouldnt say this because i coyld end up going against you ;) but i doubt it iv got to face Frozen now :/ but i beat Beatboks so theres hope) round try and use better scans of MM's reaction feats. He has great speed feats but you didn't really use very good scans to prove his FTL reaction (if you want I can dig up the time where he matches speed with Barry Allen in a fight for you?)
darkraiden had no serious counter against the TP and overall veshark got the better tactic and drakraidens attempt to make a quantifiable feat out of a "figure of speech", come on........
@darkseid1006: Those scans did prove J'onn has FTL reactions. Hell I didn't see veshark use the scan of J'onn fighting a bloodlusted Flash to help prove J'onn's speed
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