Buffy, Angel & Faith Vs Lady Shiva, Captain America & Batman

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#1  Edited By WW28

fight in NYC
win by KO or death
 

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The_Mayhem_Theory

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#2  Edited By The_Mayhem_Theory
Team 2; as far as I know, CA and the Bat have taken on characters way out of Team 1's league.
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#3  Edited By Jezer

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

Team 2; as far as I know, CA and the Bat have taken on characters way out of Team 1's league.

And Team 1 hasn't taken on characters way out of Team 2's league, or their own?

It's a common plot point that good main characters have to manage to defeat evil antagonists that are vastly superior to them in power/skill/intellect/ect. How exactly are you judging what league each team are in? I'd be willing to bet that all these characters have defeated entities far powerful than themself or people on the other team.

....Please come up with a better argument than that. Megaman defeats Sigma. Harry Potter defeats Voldemort. Sam and Dean defeat both Angels, Demons, and Lucifer......

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#4  Edited By alexandrinus

Team 2.

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Team 2 stomps.
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#6  Edited By The_Mayhem_Theory
@Jezer said:

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

Team 2; as far as I know, CA and the Bat have taken on characters way out of Team 1's league.

And Team 1 hasn't taken on characters way out of Team 2's league, or their own?

It's a common plot point that good main characters have to manage to defeat evil antagonists that are vastly superior to them in power/skill/intellect/ect. How exactly are you judging what league each team are in? I'd be willing to bet that all these characters have defeated entities far powerful than themself or people on the other team.

....Please come up with a better argument than that. Megaman defeats Sigma. Harry Potter defeats Voldemort. Sam and Dean defeat both Angels, Demons, and Lucifer......

Has Buffy ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as the Hulk? Captain America has, and I consider Buffy to be below Cap's level. Has Angel ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as Superman? Batman has, but Angel is superior to Batman in terms of strength and speed (which doesn't prove anything other than that). I don't know much about Lady Shiva, so she is irrelevant at the moment. The league to which I'm indicating is that huge gap of power that separates characters; for example, Captain America and Hulk, and Batman and Superman, Harry Potter and Doctor Strange, Megaman and a Celestial, etc. A better argument? How is that needed? Everyone knows what the common plot is, but common plot isn't being used here. These are characters from completely different universes and levels of skills and ability, battling each other. There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face. Going back to my original post; Team 2 takes the victory.
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#7  Edited By Danny789

Team 1 all stronger, faster, more durable, better skilled.@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

@Jezer said:
Has Angel ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as Superman? Batman has

Batman has never REALLY defeated Superman

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#8  Edited By buttersdaman000

Can we stop with the Buffy threads.....

And for the record, Team 1 wins.

Team 2 has the skill advantage but nobody is out of each others league

Team 1 has the experience advantage

Team 1 has the strength advantage

Team 1 has the durability advantage

Team 1 and 2 are about equal in speed

Team 1 has the ruthlessness advantage

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

@Jezer said:

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

Team 2; as far as I know, CA and the Bat have taken on characters way out of Team 1's league.

And Team 1 hasn't taken on characters way out of Team 2's league, or their own?

It's a common plot point that good main characters have to manage to defeat evil antagonists that are vastly superior to them in power/skill/intellect/ect. How exactly are you judging what league each team are in? I'd be willing to bet that all these characters have defeated entities far powerful than themself or people on the other team.

....Please come up with a better argument than that. Megaman defeats Sigma. Harry Potter defeats Voldemort. Sam and Dean defeat both Angels, Demons, and Lucifer......

Has Buffy ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as the Hulk? Captain America has, and I consider Buffy to be below Cap's level. Has Angel ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as Superman? Batman has, but Angel is superior to Batman in terms of strength and speed (which doesn't prove anything other than that). I don't know much about Lady Shiva, so she is irrelevant at the moment. The league to which I'm indicating is that huge gap of power that separates characters; for example, Captain America and Hulk, and Batman and Superman, Harry Potter and Doctor Strange, Megaman and a Celestial, etc. A better argument? How is that needed? Everyone knows what the common plot is, but common plot isn't being used here. These are characters from completely different universes and levels of skills and ability, battling each other. There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face. Going back to my original post; Team 2 takes the victory.

1. So apparently Batman defeating Superman straight up has happened and I missed it? Same goes for Hulk......actually has he ever beaten Hulk without help or PIS?

2. I can say the same thing about team 1 if I just broaden the scope, like so: Has anybody on team 2 defeated a Hell God? A God (Higher Power)? The First Evil? See...

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Team 2 wins. As shown in other threads either Batman or Cap can beat Buffy or faith.

What physical abilities team 1 might have over team 2 is not enough to sway the fight. As these people routinely fight people stronger than them anyways. Along with having an assortment of powers. Team 2 is overall more skilled, and Batman's use of gadgets will only aid in their victory. Both Bruce and Steve are known as brilliant tacticians and will put a stop to the Buffy crew.

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@Danny789 said:

Team 1 all stronger, faster, more durable, better skilled. @The_Mayhem_Theory said:

@Jezer said:
Has Angel ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as Superman? Batman has

Batman has never REALLY defeated Superman

@buttersdaman000 said:

Can we stop with the Buffy threads.....

And for the record, Team 1 wins.

Team 2 has the skill advantage but nobody is out of each others league

Team 1 has the experience advantage

Team 1 has the strength advantage

Team 1 has the durability advantage

Team 1 and 2 are about equal in speed

Team 1 has the ruthlessness advantage


1. So apparently Batman defeating Superman straight up has happened and I missed it? Same goes for Hulk......actually has he ever beaten Hulk without help or PIS?

2. I can say the same thing about team 1 if I just broaden the scope, like so: Has anybody on team 2 defeated a Hell God? A God (Higher Power)? The First Evil? See...


Batman used Kryptonite against Superman, thus beating him. Captain America had his shield which absorbed most of Hulk's impacts, thus beating Hulk. To say Cap hasn't beaten Hulk without help or PIS is like me stating Batman hasn't beaten Superman without help or PIS. Wait... >_o
 
Team 2 has the skill advantage, I agree. Based on previous fights and huge gaps of power.
Team 1 has the experience advantage, I guess I agree. Based on Buffy's knowledge of previous Slayers.
Team 1 has the strength advantage, by very little. I'd say their feats on this subject are comparable.
Team 1 has the durability advantage, I disagree. Same as above.
Team 1 and 2 are about equal in speed, I agree on most occasions. Along with strength, they're comparable.
Team 1 has the ruthlessness advantage, I disagree. I'm sure Batman has done some nasty things, too.
 
For me, this sounds nearly a stalemate, with a slight edge given to Team 1. But, I'm still voting for Team 2.
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#11  Edited By buttersdaman000

@The_Mayhem_Theory:

The skill advantage isnt enough to make a big difference in the outcome

I disagree. Most of the feats used to compare Buffy characters and DC/Marvel characters were done by either Spike or Angel. Buffy has already proven that she's a lot stronger than Spike and Angel admits that Buffy is stronger. Faith is right up there with Buffy.

I disagree. Angel has been tossed off skyscrapers only to get up minutes or so later. No name slayers can get hit by semi-trucks and show no sign of damage.

I disagree. Angel and Buffy will kill you if theyre forced too and Faith is already a murderer. The only person on Team 2 that would go for the kill is Lady Shiva.

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#12  Edited By Danny789

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

.Batman used Kryptonite against Superman, thus beating him.

Wasn't it Green Arrow that put kryptonite on a arrow tip helping batman.

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#13  Edited By Super_SoldierXII

OK. Let's be fair and as realistic as possible here.

Buffy's team is stronger and more durable. They are superhuman in every respect. We have to give them that at least. Additionally, they are skilled and experienced. So let's not pretend they are not contenders here. The sooner we admit to them deserving to hang with Marvel and DC's top street leveler dogs in hand to hand, the sooner we can put all these Buffy threads to bed.

I was willing to debate for Wolverine against the Buffy clan, even without his claws, mostly do to his insane durability advantage and the fact he's put supers to sleep with naught save his fists on numerous occasions. To argue against that is ridiculous. Logan's strength is same to similar as Buffy & Co., and it's easy to argue even better based off feats. Wolverine's speed is same to BETTER based off feats as well.

I was willing to debate for Batman winning against Buffy as well (for different reasons), along with Captain America, based off superior skill and superior strategy. Plus, they both have near impeccable batting averages against many superior opponents (this cannot be argued). Batman's 'cleverness' was a distinct advantage as well, as was Captain America's same to similar stats (not far off from Wolverine save, of course, for the durability factor).

However, we are getting a little too anti-Buffy here IMO. Can we not all at least admit that the Buffy clan is superior in physical stats here (with the possible exception of CA)? If team two wins, it's only due to superior feats and combat skill. But this is a tough, tough fight either way regardless.

That said, Team 2 wins! :P

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#14  Edited By Jezer

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

@Jezer said:

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

Team 2; as far as I know, CA and the Bat have taken on characters way out of Team 1's league.

And Team 1 hasn't taken on characters way out of Team 2's league, or their own?

It's a common plot point that good main characters have to manage to defeat evil antagonists that are vastly superior to them in power/skill/intellect/ect. How exactly are you judging what league each team are in? I'd be willing to bet that all these characters have defeated entities far powerful than themself or people on the other team.

....Please come up with a better argument than that. Megaman defeats Sigma. Harry Potter defeats Voldemort. Sam and Dean defeat both Angels, Demons, and Lucifer......

Has Buffy ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as the Hulk? Captain America has, and I consider Buffy to be below Cap's level. Has Angel ever fought and defeated someone as powerful as Superman? Batman has, but Angel is superior to Batman in terms of strength and speed (which doesn't prove anything other than that). I don't know much about Lady Shiva, so she is irrelevant at the moment. The league to which I'm indicating is that huge gap of power that separates characters; for example, Captain America and Hulk, and Batman and Superman, Harry Potter and Doctor Strange, Megaman and a Celestial, etc. A better argument? How is that needed? Everyone knows what the common plot is, but common plot isn't being used here. These are characters from completely different universes and levels of skills and ability, battling each other. There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face. Going back to my original post; Team 2 takes the victory.

Without even being a Buffy or Angel fan, I'm pretty sure at least one of the supernatural entities and demons they've defeated have been powerful in comparison to the Hulk. What exactly do you even mean by such a vague word as "powerful"? If you're referring to physical strength, then the word is meaningless in the context of your argument - because being physically strong does not make you as powerful as say a reality warper or magic user. But yes, I'd bet money they've defeated people who are as "powerful" as Hulk or Superman, yet in different ways, within their own universe.

Either way, your argument is severely flawed in the fact that you can't simply judge battles based on who beat stronger people.Such encounters are influenced by plot restraints - most villains have some sort of CIS that keeps them from destroying their weaker protagonists. Zoom could easily have killed Flash hundreds of times, and thus I'm not gonna argue that Flash eventually defeating Zoom means he can beat someonelse - especially while ignoring the context of the fight...Which is a great segue to my next paragraph....

Your argument fallaciously ignores the context of the fights. As others have already pointed out "Batman has never REALLY defeated Superman". Your argument is based on seemingly outlier feats that aren't consistent or applicable to the fight at hand. Batman can use kryptonite on Superman, and then turn around and get beat up by a vastly weaker Karate Kid. Batman defeating Superman with his weakness would not in any way apply to his fight against Karate Kid. Same could be said with this battle. A win in and of itself doesn't mean anything, only the implications of the win. "Defeating" Superman (put in quotes because it's more likely Batman just survived long enough for Superman to come to his senses...) has no significant implication other than the fact that either Superman was holding back or PIS was involved - since we all know that without significant prep, Batman doesn't stand a chance against Superman's speed or projectile attacks.

"There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face"

Last, let me address your bigger picture reasoning: Batman and Captain America have defeated greater opponents than the opponents that Dr. Manhattan has defeated. Correct? Considering that there's no one with real superpowers besides him, he killed a couple Vietnam soldiers - he fought someone with low level super strength.

Therefore, according to your logic, Batman and Captain America can defeat Dr. Manhattan?

This is why you compare the specific attributes of different characters when deciding who wins in a fight, instead of basing it on past fights that aren't applicable.

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#15  Edited By cascadeking09

@Alurvelve said:

Team 2 wins. As shown in other threads either Batman or Cap can beat Buffy or faith.

What physical abilities team 1 might have over team 2 is not enough to sway the fight. As these people routinely fight people stronger than them anyways. Along with having an assortment of powers. Team 2 is overall more skilled, and Batman's use of gadgets will only aid in their victory. Both Bruce and Steve are known as brilliant tacticians and will put a stop to the Buffy crew.

This

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@Jezer said:

Without even being a Buffy or Angel fan, I'm pretty sure at least one of the supernatural entities and demons they've defeated have been powerful in comparison to the Hulk. What exactly do you even mean by such a vague word as "powerful"? If you're referring to physical strength, then the word is meaningless in the context of your argument - because being physically strong does not make you as powerful as say a reality warper or magic user. But yes, I'd bet money they've defeated people who are as "powerful" as Hulk or Superman, yet in different ways, within their own universe.

Either way, your argument is severely flawed in the fact that you can't simply judge battles based on who beat stronger people.Such encounters are influenced by plot restraints - most villains have some sort of CIS that keeps them from destroying their weaker protagonists. Zoom could easily have killed Flash hundreds of times, and thus I'm not gonna argue that Flash eventually defeating Zoom means he can beat someonelse - especially while ignoring the context of the fight...Which is a great segue to my next paragraph....

Your argument fallaciously ignores the context of the fights. As others have already pointed out "Batman has never REALLY defeated Superman". Your argument is based on seemingly outlier feats that aren't consistent or applicable to the fight at hand. Batman can use kryptonite on Superman, and then turn around and get beat up by a vastly weaker Karate Kid. Batman defeating Superman with his weakness would not in any way apply to his fight against Karate Kid. Same could be said with this battle. A win in and of itself doesn't mean anything, only the implications of the win. "Defeating" Superman (put in quotes because it's more likely Batman just survived long enough for Superman to come to his senses...) has no significant implication other than the fact that either Superman was holding back or PIS was involved - since we all know that without significant prep, Batman doesn't stand a chance against Superman's speed or projectile attacks.

"There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face"

Last, let me address your bigger picture reasoning: Batman and Captain America have defeated greater opponents than the opponents that Dr. Manhattan has defeated. Correct? Considering that there's no one with real superpowers besides him, he killed a couple Vietnam soldiers - he fought someone with low level super strength.

Therefore, according to your logic, Batman and Captain America can defeat Dr. Manhattan?

This is why you compare the specific attributes of different characters when deciding who wins in a fight, instead of basing it on past fights that aren't applicable.

I had typed out a very long and detailed response to this one, but then I erased it thinking, "Wait a minute, he just stated my argument is severely flawed, yet he admitted to not being a fan of Buffy or Angel, but is sure they've fought entities and demons that have power comparable to Hulk. So, he actually doesn't know if they had or not, which makes his side of the debate the real flawed one." You can bet all the money in the world, but unless you can verify that claim with proof, then you're betting on a blind horse. I gave how Batman defeated Superman, and Captain America defeated Hulk. Why can't I base my predictions on what stronger characters they fought and won against? That is a factor you should look into when making a decision, because then you can see what kind of tactics they've used and how they could use those tactics within another battle (part of those tactics would be utilizing their skills and abilities/powers). And how does my argument fallaciously ignore the context of the fight, when the context of the fight is three versus three? There's no rules other than where they are fighting and what the outcome of the fight should be -- what other context am I ignoring? Winning is winning. The fact is, Batman used Kryptonite to weaken Superman enough to defeat him (this leans more toward PIS than the following...), and Captain America had his shield which absorbed the impacts (as it is an ability of the shield itself, being made out of Vibranium and all) of the Hulk; when the shield built up enough raw power, it had enough strength to knock Hulk out (that doesn't sound like PIS to me). You made a mess about Dr. Manhattan; my logic falls under what I know and have seen from the characters. This makes Dr. Manhattan irrelevant to the debate because, just as you mentioned, there are no other superpowers besides him; using that to prove whatever you're trying to prove me wrong on just shows another flaw of your own argument.
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#17  Edited By DrKellogg

Team 2. Batman is prepared for every situation and i'm sure he has a pointy bit of wood (ROFL) . Cap has taken on the hulk i'm sure he could trump buffy. Hand to hand Lady and faith would be a good fight, faith would most likly come out on top but when Angel is ash i'm sure batman would be able to take her out.

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#18  Edited By buttersdaman000

@The_Mayhem_Theory said:

@Jezer said:
Without even being a Buffy or Angel fan, I'm pretty sure at least one of the supernatural entities and demons they've defeated have been powerful in comparison to the Hulk. What exactly do you even mean by such a vague word as "powerful"? If you're referring to physical strength, then the word is meaningless in the context of your argument - because being physically strong does not make you as powerful as say a reality warper or magic user. But yes, I'd bet money they've defeated people who are as "powerful" as Hulk or Superman, yet in different ways, within their own universe.

Either way, your argument is severely flawed in the fact that you can't simply judge battles based on who beat stronger people.Such encounters are influenced by plot restraints - most villains have some sort of CIS that keeps them from destroying their weaker protagonists. Zoom could easily have killed Flash hundreds of times, and thus I'm not gonna argue that Flash eventually defeating Zoom means he can beat someonelse - especially while ignoring the context of the fight...Which is a great segue to my next paragraph....

Your argument fallaciously ignores the context of the fights. As others have already pointed out "Batman has never REALLY defeated Superman". Your argument is based on seemingly outlier feats that aren't consistent or applicable to the fight at hand. Batman can use kryptonite on Superman, and then turn around and get beat up by a vastly weaker Karate Kid. Batman defeating Superman with his weakness would not in any way apply to his fight against Karate Kid. Same could be said with this battle. A win in and of itself doesn't mean anything, only the implications of the win. "Defeating" Superman (put in quotes because it's more likely Batman just survived long enough for Superman to come to his senses...) has no significant implication other than the fact that either Superman was holding back or PIS was involved - since we all know that without significant prep, Batman doesn't stand a chance against Superman's speed or projectile attacks.

"There are few similarities between them, however I look at the bigger picture; Cap and the Bat have faced greater opponents than what I've seen Buffy, Angel, or Faith face"

Last, let me address your bigger picture reasoning: Batman and Captain America have defeated greater opponents than the opponents that Dr. Manhattan has defeated. Correct? Considering that there's no one with real superpowers besides him, he killed a couple Vietnam soldiers - he fought someone with low level super strength.

Therefore, according to your logic, Batman and Captain America can defeat Dr. Manhattan?

This is why you compare the specific attributes of different characters when deciding who wins in a fight, instead of basing it on past fights that aren't applicable.

I had typed out a very long and detailed response to this one, but then I erased it thinking, "Wait a minute, he just stated my argument is severely flawed, yet he admitted to not being a fan of Buffy or Angel, but is sure they've fought entities and demons that have power comparable to Hulk. So, he actually doesn't know if they had or not, which makes his side of the debate the real flawed one." You can bet all the money in the world, but unless you can verify that claim with proof, then you're betting on a blind horse. I gave how Batman defeated Superman, and Captain America defeated Hulk. Why can't I base my predictions on what stronger characters they fought and won against? That is a factor you should look into when making a decision, because then you can see what kind of tactics they've used and how they could use those tactics within another battle (part of those tactics would be utilizing their skills and abilities/powers). And how does my argument fallaciously ignore the context of the fight, when the context of the fight is three versus three? There's no rules other than where they are fighting and what the outcome of the fight should be -- what other context am I ignoring? Winning is winning. The fact is, Batman used Kryptonite to weaken Superman enough to defeat him (this leans more toward PIS than the following...), and Captain America had his shield which absorbed the impacts (as it is an ability of the shield itself, being made out of Vibranium and all) of the Hulk; when the shield built up enough raw power, it had enough strength to knock Hulk out (that doesn't sound like PIS to me). You made a mess about Dr. Manhattan; my logic falls under what I know and have seen from the characters. This makes Dr. Manhattan irrelevant to the debate because, just as you mentioned, there are no other superpowers besides him; using that to prove whatever you're trying to prove me wrong on just shows another flaw of your own argument.

Well, Technically he is right. They havent beaten anybody as physically strong as Hulk or Superman but Angel Investigations took down Jessica (A higher being with vast mind control/reality warping), Buffy and company tok down Dark Willow (Kinda) and defeated The First Evil. None of these really requires hitting or strength but since you want to put it in the context of power or, even dangerousness of the villain, then Buffy team takes it.

Whatever tactics Batman used to beat Superman clearly wont work here since he has no prep or green K. Captain America defeating Hulk by himself- PIS

His argument wasnt flawed. You basically based team 2 winning of the types of opponents theyve beaten. So he gave you a character who is vastly superior to anybody in this fight, yet who has not defeated anybody noteworthy. Then, based on your argument, Batman and Cap should stomp Dr. Manhattan because the biggest threat he's taken down is Ozymandias whereas Bat and Cap have "taken" down Superman and Hulk.

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#19  Edited By Jezer

^ This person gets it.

The reason I can say matter of factly, without even being a fan of the series, that Buffy and Angel have fought people as powerful as Hulk and Superman is because - that's a universal plot point. See first post for clarification.

Considering they have supernatural attributes, the level of villains being vastly superior to them (in order to make the show interesting) means that they will have a big bad villain who they defeat on Hulk or Superman's level. I would have guessed some angel or super high level demon. Thanks for illustrating my point with your knowledge Buttersdamon. Guess my logical inference based on common plot patterns turned out to be right. Not surprising.

"And how does my argument fallaciously ignore the context of the fight, when the context of the fight is three versus three? "

I was talking about the context of those fights that you cited about Batman and Captain America. Most specifically, the one with Batman "defeating" Superman. Saying "Batman beat Superman" without talking about how, or outlining the situation like you did in your second post, does not mean much.

"Why can't I base my predictions on what stronger characters they fought and won against? "

All the different reasons I've given so far in this thread. You can use that to supplement an argument, but using it as a base is illogical. To reiterate: Most characters fight people vastly stronger than them, who could defeat them easily, but don't due to Plot Influence or CIS. Furthermore, your argument that you don't "think" Angel and Buffy haven't foughten people on the level Caps and Bats have was clearly based on a lack of knowledge since they have.

Under your reasoning, Captain America and Batman can defeat Dr. Manhattan. Sam and Dean from Supernatural, who took down Lucifer and Michael, can defeat Batman, Spiderman, ect. To put it simply, your logic doesn't work.

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#20  Edited By Dark Cloud™

Team Two looks more promising.

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#21  Edited By cascadeking09

@buttersdaman000 said:

Well, Technically he is right. They havent beaten anybody as physically strong as Hulk or Superman but Angel Investigations took down Jessica (A higher being with vast mind control/reality warping), Buffy and company tok down Dark Willow (Kinda) and defeated The First Evil. None of these really requires hitting or strength but since you want to put it in the context of power or, even dangerousness of the villain, then Buffy team takes it.

Whatever tactics Batman used to beat Superman clearly wont work here since he has no prep or green K. Captain America defeating Hulk by himself- PIS

His argument wasnt flawed. You basically based team 2 winning of the types of opponents theyve beaten. So he gave you a character who is vastly superior to anybody in this fight, yet who has not defeated anybody noteworthy. Then, based on your argument, Batman and Cap should stomp Dr. Manhattan because the biggest threat he's taken down is Ozymandias whereas Bat and Cap have "taken" down Superman and Hulk.

To be fair Buffy and Angel were aided by plot devices for those characters too.

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#22  Edited By buttersdaman000

@cascadeking09:

I know. I wasnt trying to say Buffy and Angel beat them by being more powerful.

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#23  Edited By cascadeking09

@buttersdaman000: o, ok.