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#1 Posted by Lukim-45 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky and Daredevil

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Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain

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Round 1: Both sides in character with morals

Round 2: Both sides bloodlusted and morals off

Rules:

  • Standard equipment and weapons
  • Random Battle
  • 616 Daredevil and Bucky and Pre-Flashpoint/N52 For Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain
  • Win by death or knockout
  • Perfect teamwork

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#3 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42332 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat team.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Vertigo- (17004 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat team due to Cass

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#6 Posted by Pipxeroth (8770 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Jason goes down and then Cass gets double teamed.

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#7 Edited by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Beats the crap out of Bucky and Cass Kills DD handily.

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#8 Posted by Nefarious (35585 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie beats Daredevil in a decent fight. Jason beats Bucky.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5ab39f2267ace (170 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 in a cool fight. Bucky dispatches Jason and they can team up against Cass who would have problems with DD alone.

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#10 Edited by jinn (339 posts) - - Show Bio

What has "Orphan" actually done? Everything I've seen from her just seems unimpressive compared to what she was.

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#11 Posted by Warlockmage (8164 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 mid difficulty.

Daredevil > Cassandra

Bucky >> Jason

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#12 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36153 posts) - - Show Bio

Just ranking these characters IMO.

1. Cass

2. Bucky

3. Daredevil/Jason Todd

Although I believe Daredevil has certain advantages, Jason does have a clear gear advantage IMO. The battle could play out in very different ways.

Nobody should be beating the crap out of anyone. This fight should be very close with Bucky being the MVP of his team and Cass being the MVP of hers. She has a slight speed advantage and a very strong H2H advantage due to her body reading. I'll probably go with the Bat team. Cass is pretty amazing. It would be fun to see her fight Bucky though, I think he could give her a good fight, but her Body Reading should give her the upper hand.

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#13 Edited by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@jinn said:

What has "Orphan" actually done? Everything I've seen from her just seems unimpressive compared to what she was.

@jashro44

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#14 Posted by Yung ANcient One (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Jason is going to cost them the win. He doesn't play that well w/ teams. Prove me wrong. I've read his comics, he's decent at best.

Round 2: I don't know. Bloodlusted changes things. I don't know how crazy DD is in comparison to Cassie. I doubt he matches her. But, I doubt Jason surpasses Bucky. They are even or Bucky is superior in my opinion.

But, ultimately, I don't care that much. These threads are silly to me. (+)

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#15 Edited by deactivated-5a5a76120d2ba (5989 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins, but mostly Jason gets carried.

Cassandra can beat either one, and Jason just hold his off until Cassandra beats the first one and then they take out the last one together.

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#16 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42332 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Yung ANcient One (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman:

HA! It was literally the last one. I swear it wasn't there before. I'm confident, but hell... maybe I missed it somehow. (+)

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#18 Edited by comicace3 (12387 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 should take it in a close one. Honestly this might go either way if there is a mismatch somehow. Like if DD goes against Jason and Cass goes against Bucky.

Round 2 goes to team 2

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#19 Posted by BruceRogers (16566 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way. Cass beats Matt, but Bucky beats Jason.

Online
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#20 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@jinn said:

What has "Orphan" actually done? Everything I've seen from her just seems unimpressive compared to what she was.

She did recently solo 200 ninjas in detective comics that were said to be the deadliest fighters on the planet. Also in round 2 with Shiva when it came down to just Cass and Shiva she did a lot better than she did previously and she did much better than batman (keep in mind its been stated Cass is constantly improving). She actually seemed to have the upper hand IMO. Not to mention Bruce has admitted he would lose to her.

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#21 Posted by jinn (339 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:
@jinn said:

What has "Orphan" actually done? Everything I've seen from her just seems unimpressive compared to what she was.

She did recently solo 200 ninjas in detective comics that were said to be the deadliest fighters on the planet. Also in round 2 with Shiva when it came down to just Cass and Shiva she did a lot better than she did previously and she did much better than batman (keep in mind its been stated Cass is constantly improving). She actually seemed to have the upper hand IMO. Not to mention Bruce has admitted he would lose to her.

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Fair enough, that's much better then what I've seen before.

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#22 Posted by oceanmaster21 (14971 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat team slightly

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#23 Posted by KeyboardThug9 (462 posts) - - Show Bio

bat team with ease

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#24 Posted by JamesWayne (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah but to be fair, the entire team in that arc were written to be wildly incompetent. It's like each of them forgot they had other resources than just their fists to fight. Batman's gadgets, Luke's suit and all of Clayface were ignored so that Cass could beat Shiva, something the majority of that team should have been able to do. Tynion is terrible with his 'insane moment, comment' writing and it will be interesting to see if Cass is maintained at this broken level, because if she could honestly take 200+ ninjas then shiva, when the entire team couldn't do more than 5 (assuming tynion meant that when he wrote it, and wasn't ignoring everyone else's abilities to showcase cass's h2h skills) then she's ridiculous and there's no point for the rest of the team. That being said, in pure h2h I think cass is the best in the dcu, I think that's what tynion was trying to show, he could have just done it better. Seeing as how both her opponents here don't have any gadgets or skills beyond h2h, whoever she faces loses, and then she'll go help Jason. Switch Jason with one of them, give him standard equipment and then maybe you have a chance for team 1. 50 50 in my opinion.

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#25 Posted by TG_54 (544 posts) - - Show Bio

I think cass has better h2h than everyone listed. Unless I'm mistaken, I say team 2.

Great matchup tho, it's hard to decide

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#26 Posted by mrmonster (12242 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#27 Posted by Helloman (23609 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one wins.

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#28 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3702 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I wouldn't take the "200 the deadlies fighters" seriously. I'm sure, we hear those statements lots of times in comics i.e. Kingpin beating effortlessly best figters in the world or Deadpool defeating best swordsmen in the world. Statements about someone don't make them impressive if there's no visual evidence backing them, as well. If anything, it pertains to her stamina rather than fighting skills or else. In regards to Bruce's comment on her skills, I would take that as Cass is very skilled and that was it. I mean, he also recently claimed Superman is the most powerful being and he KNOWS that he's not, however Superman is very powerful, that's what his statment conveys.

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#29 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_adam:

I wouldn't take the "200 the deadlies fighters" seriously. I'm sure, we hear those statements lots of times in comics i.e. Kingpin beating effortlessly best figters in the world or Deadpool defeating best swordsmen in the world. Statements about someone don't make them impressive if there's no visual evidence backing them, as well.

Well we know the league of shadows were created by Ra's as a "boogey man" and even Ra's was afraid of them. I know there not literally the best fighters on the planet, like none of them are better than batman or bronze tiger individually. But as far as fodder with the way they were built up and knowing what they are its not a stretch.

If anything, it pertains to her stamina rather than fighting skills or else.

Maybe. I would say it could retain to both considering the training of the league of shadows.

In regards to Bruce's comment on her skills, I would take that as Cass is very skilled and that was it. I mean, he also recently claimed Superman is the most powerful being and he KNOWS that he's not, however Superman is very powerful, that's what his statment conveys.

Difference being is batman's comment on superman is hyperbole. His statement on Cass is an admission of defeat.

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#30 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah but to be fair, the entire team in that arc were written to be wildly incompetent. It's like each of them forgot they had other resources than just their fists to fight. Batman's gadgets, Luke's suit and all of Clayface were ignored so that Cass could beat Shiva, something the majority of that team should have been able to do. Tynion is terrible with his 'insane moment, comment' writing and it will be interesting to see if Cass is maintained at this broken level, because if she could honestly take 200+ ninjas then shiva, when the entire team couldn't do more than 5 (assuming tynion meant that when he wrote it, and wasn't ignoring everyone else's abilities to showcase cass's h2h skills) then she's ridiculous and there's no point for the rest of the team. That being said, in pure h2h I think cass is the best in the dcu, I think that's what tynion was trying to show, he could have just done it better. Seeing as how both her opponents here don't have any gadgets or skills beyond h2h, whoever she faces loses, and then she'll go help Jason. Switch Jason with one of them, give him standard equipment and then maybe you have a chance for team 1. 50 50 in my opinion.

Well the point of the story was to show Cass was the best hand to hand fighter in DC. When was it said the entire team couldn't take more than 5?

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#31 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9858 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is Jason low balled so much ?

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#32 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra carries team 2. New 52 Cass now has both hype and feats placing her above New 52 Batman.

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#33 Posted by the_red_viper (12529 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is Jason low balled so much ?

I have an idea but I won't share it because I don't want to start anything.

Moderator
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#34 Posted by JamesWayne (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It wasn't stated explicitly, it is just what each one lost to. Bruce lost to shiva, not the fodder ninjas, but he lost in a single move, he may have well been fodder himself. And the pics where he lost in the past showed only 5-6 ninjas. I agree the point of the story was to show cass as the best h2h, and more importantly her character growth. That tynion did great. It was just weird to me that he downplayed each and every member of the team to do it. She's always been he best h2h in dc, but tec has a couple people that should have ended the league in a second like clayface and luke, and people who could match cass (not beat, but equal) like bruce and kate using their standard tec. But each was written as if they were so incompetent that I don't think tynion could keep that up. For example, next arc is Azrael, why doesn't cass just completely destroy the threat. She beat shiva single handedly took out 200!!!! ninjas simultaneously. I loved the cass parts of the arc, but it would have been so much better if it was 2-3 issues, just her doing that stuff without everyone else. Like the spoiler arc coming up. That way tynion wouldn't need to make something appear to be a bigger threat than it is for plot reasons and drama.

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#35 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3702 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Well we know the league of shadows were created by Ra's as a "boogey man" and even Ra's was afraid of them. I know there not literally the best fighters on the planet, like none of them are better than batman or bronze tiger individually. But as far as fodder with the way they were built up and knowing what they are its not a stretch.

In my opinion, it's a baseless description of them. I'm sure if i search, I'll find some good statements about Hand or Hydra members etc., as well. They're consistently portrayed as cannon fodder, one or two feats, let alone a statement, don't change that.

Maybe. I would say it could retain to both considering the training of the league of shadows.

Disagree.

Difference being is batman's comment on superman is hyperbole. His statement on Cass is an admission of defeat.

The way I see it, both are incorrect but the statement about Cass is just closer to reality.

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#36 Posted by HigorM (8815 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52 Jason Todd is unimpressive IMHO, I see him as the weak link here, losing his fight against either Bucky or Daredevil. It will end up in a 2x1 fight with both against Cassandra Cain who is a great fighter but no enough to beat them at the same time.

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#37 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3702 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Pre AND New 52 version applies.

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#38 Posted by HigorM (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by Marishtar (1892 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by Darksercate (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky and DD in a close fight

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#41 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_adam:

In my opinion, it's a baseless description of them. I'm sure if i search, I'll find some good statements about Hand or Hydra members etc., as well. They're consistently portrayed as cannon fodder, one or two feats, let alone a statement, don't change that.

Except its not baseless for reasons mentioned. Not to mention we've seen in flashbacks that the league of shadows had actually detained batman 3 times.

The way I see it, both are incorrect but the statement about Cass is just closer to reality.

Why would you assume the statement from batman about Cass is incorrect? Even if the statement had no evidence supporting it (which it does) a statement shouldn't be assumed false or true if it is unknown. That is just illogical.

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#42 Edited by JohnPeterBanana (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 both rounds.

Why does RH get lowballed so much?! His N52 version is pretty decent.

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#43 Posted by IndomitableRegal (14032 posts) - - Show Bio

Bat team in a good fight. Cassie as MVP, though no one here is a slouch.

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#44 Posted by the_real_seamAn (2039 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 in one hell of a fight

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#45 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 both rounds.

Why does RH get lowballed so much?! His N52 version is pretty decent.

Because Marvel fans cant get over the fact that Bucky sucks compared to Jason.

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#46 Posted by _Logos_ (1897 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 because Cass with Jason's help can take down the team.

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#47 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (15351 posts) - - Show Bio

I don´t know, but Daredevil >>>>>>Bucky.

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#48 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't realize this was composite Cassandra. Team 2 even more solidly now.

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#49 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3702 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Except its not baseless for reasons mentioned. Not to mention we've seen in flashbacks that the league of shadows had actually detained batman 3 times.

Again, the reasons you mentioned are indicative of their skills but actions speak louder than words, which they consistently lack when it comes to IMPRESSIVE fighting skills.

Why would you assume the statement from batman about Cass is incorrect? Even if the statement had no evidence supporting it (which it does) a statement shouldn't be assumed false or true if it is unknown. That is just illogical.

Based on the fact that this statement is contradictory to her performance thus far in NEW 52. The story arc focuses on her and Tynion seems to love Cass, in order to make it interesting, she needs to be hyped.

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 for a slight majority.