Bracket Battle Between Some Less-used Jedi

This is a bracket battle among some less-used Jedi. It is not an attempt to determine the most powerful Jedi, it is not intended to be comprehensive, some of them are somewhat more-used than others, some of them have more on-panel (etc.) feats than others, and some are more powerful than others. But let's have some fun here!

The pairings in round 1 fight each other first, then the winners go to round 2, etc., until we get to the big winner. Please say who you think wins each fight in each round. If you have to guess, that's fine.

Each combatant is given a choice of light sabers before each battle: one single-bladed light saber, two single-bladed light sabers, one saberstaff (double-bladed light saber), or two saberstaffs. No other weapons or equipment beyond these light sabers.

The combatants may use the Force or any other abilities in any way they know how during their fights.

After each round, each combatant is fully refreshed and healed.

Each combatant is at the height of their abilities, except for those who have dabbled with being a Dark Jedi or Sith, in which case they are at the height of their abilities during the time which they were aligned with the light side. Xesh in particular is not necessarily a fully-lightside Jedi/Je'daii yet, but let's just use him as he is right now in Force War, he's light enough for this battle.

The battles take place, one at a time, in an uninhabited Lothlorien, starting 30' apart, and in character (again, at a point in which the character was aligned with the Light Side). Win by death, KO, or incapacitation. Each character is highly motivated to defeat their opponents.

Who wins each battle and why?

Links: Leia Organa-Solo, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Vodo-Siosk Baas, Shaak Ti, Dass Jennir, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli, Rahm Kota, Kit Fisto, Xesh, Oppo Rancisis, Mara Jade, Agen Kolar,Saesee Tiin, Plo Koon, Kao Cen Darach

Silver, Jedixman, and nova will lay some knowledge here.

that Xesh guy looks awesome

@allstarsuperman: He doesn't really amount to anything sadly, despite his nice looks...or what I have seen.

that kinda sucks

Oh, I don't know. I wouldn't put him at the top echelons by any means, but he seems to be a pretty good fighter and has a lot of experience with the dark side, so he has abilities like force lightning that he can use here that the others can't.

Any other thoughts? Ideas for who the big winner would be, at least? Or just any individual match-ups?

ound 1:

Leia Organa Solo > Ki Adi Mundie

Vodo Siosk Baas < Shaak Ti

Das Jenrir < Aaylah Secura

Luminara Unduli > Rahm Kota

Kit Fisto > Xesh

Mara Jade > Oppo Racisis

Saesse Tin > Agen Kolar

Plo koon > Kao cen Darach

Round 2:

Leia Organa Solo < Shaak Ti

Aaylah Secura < Luminara Unduli

Mara Jade < Kit Fisto

Plo koon > Saesse Tin

Round 3:

Shaak Ti < Luminara Unduli

Plo koon > Kit Fisto

Round 4:

Plo koon > Luminara Unduli

+1 for the op some are really tough calls

winners round 1

Ki-adi-mundi,Vodo siosk baas, Aayla Secura,Kota,xesh,Rancisis,Tinn,kao cenn darach

winner round 2

Vodo siosk baas,Aayla Secura.xesh,tinn

winner round 3

Vodo siosk baas,xesh

winner round 4

Vodo siosk baas

I would love to see some feats provided for these characters. I'm interested to see what some of these jedi can do.

@suske_amoras: Thanks for the full-run-down reply. Vodo is a pretty cool character. I'm not sure he'd win the whole deal myself, but being able to fight as well as he did against Exar Kun with only a force-strengthened stick is a pretty solid feat in my eyes.

@angryprune:

Thanks for your full reply as well.

One sticks out to me--you think Luminara could beat Shaak Ti? I would think Shaak would take that.

I don't have a lot of scans of them, myself. You could check out their bios that I linked to.

Bump. This seems like a good fight(s), but it is quite complicated - and there's too many battles, so I'll post only limited reasoning, but I'll be willing to expand on them if necessary. I'll assess everything from the left side first, then the right.

Round 1:

Left

1. Leia vs Ki-Adi Mundi: I could see this being something of a stalemate (it's at least extremely close). If I had to favor somebody, I'd go for Leia. She should be roughly as skilled, but she should also be faster. Power should lie even. So, by virtue of a small but noticeable speed advantage, Leia gets the edge.

2. Shaak Ti vs Vodo-Siosk Baas: Shaak Ti wins. She's just better - better feats. Vodo strengthening his staff to be able to meet lightsabers without being sliced in half, and contending with Exar Kun are both good Force and combat feats, respectively, but Shaak Ti should be narrowly superior in both regards (utilizing Deflection against Lightsaber blows, beating multiple Magnaguards, albeit with a different weapon, beating a lone Magnaguard with a lightsaber - although she did have some level of environmental support, etc.). She is relatively mediocre in general, but Shaak gets the edge.

3. Aayla Secura vs Dass Jennir: Dass is very underused, but he's also relatively lacking in solid feats to my memory, as well. From memory, Aayla should have better feats - and the edge.

4. Luminara Unduli vs Rahm Kota: Luminara Unduli would beat beat Rahm Kota. I suppose Kota could give her some level of difficulty, but she should be just superior, especially in terms of feats.

Right

1. Kit Fisto vs Xesh: Should be a good fight, but my knowledge on Xesh is just limited. I could see him winning from what I know of him, but for my lack of knowledge on him, I might as well assign the victory to Fisto just so that in the future battles, I have a clearer perspective on the fights.

2. Oppo Rancisis vs Mara Jade: Oppo Rancisis has considerable Force ability (his usage of powers like Battle Meditation and Malacia can attest to that), but in terms of raw physical skill (which is the more pertinent affair), I'd give the edge to Mara Jade.

3. Saesee Tiin vs Agen Kolar: Saesee Tiin. While Kolar rivals Tiin as a swordsman, or slightly surpasses him, he has nothing to make up for Tiin's plainly greater power.

4. Plo Koon vs Kao Cen Darach: Plo Koon. Kao Cen is just too lacking in feats - his swordsmanship capacity can be attested to by his rank of Battlemaster and his skill in wielding a lightsaber and a doublesaber at once, an unusual combination, to repel Malgus and Vindican. Conversely, Koon has stalemated Ventress. As a skill feat, I'd see this as about even, but Koon is also more powerful, which presents him the victory.

Round 2:

Left

1. Leia vs Shaak Ti: To be honest, Leia. Just... better. Significantly faster, significantly more skilled, and significantly more powerful.

2. Luminara Unduli vs Aayla Secura: This is relatively difficult to determine. To be honest, I'd probably assess them as roughly even in terms of skill, but Luminara should be more powerful on the account of stalemating Ventress telekinetically, Ventress having incited avalanches and collapsed stone ceilings. As a power feat, that should exceed anything Secura has shown, so I'll give the win to Luminara.

Right

1. Mara Jade vs Kit Fisto: Hmm... I'm not sure as to whether Mara Jade can win any rounds at all here. Kit Fisto is just faster and more skilled. Kit Fisto wins.

2. Saesee Tiin vs Plo Koon: This is a very even fight. I can't say I'd give either of them the edge in terms of power or skill, or even speed, for that matter. Saesee should be stronger, but I doubt that would really matter. They should be even in telepathic abilities, but Koon also knows abilities like Alter Environment and Electric Judgment, but I honestly doubt they would be of any consequence. I can't call any victor from feats, and in terms of accolades, Saesee should be superior, and that's going to have to be how the outcome is chosen. It would be the closest fight in the entirety of the tournament, though. I'm only choosing a victor because I have to.

Round 3:

Left

Leia vs Luminara Unduli: This is a good fight. Leia should be the more skilled, and is also certainly faster. Luminara could very well have the superior TK feats, but not by too much of a margin, and that should be of inferior consequence to skill and speed. Leia Organa Solo, for the win.

Right

Kit Fisto vs Saesee Tiin: Hmm..... I want to put Saesee as the superior swordsman, but I can't. Really, Fisto is his complete and utter rival. Fisto has the definitive speed edge; Tiin the power one. So it's a matter of which is more useful in a fight - and, to be honest, it's probably speed. Duelists spend more time fighting with their sabers than their powers, and while Fisto does incorporate his powers into his dueling at times, I don't think Saesee has enough of an edge to compensate for the more pertinent advantage of speed. Fisto wins in a very narrow fight.

Round 4:

Leia vs Kit Fisto: They're roughly even in terms of speed, but Fisto is simply, although only marginally, more skilled. Leia is more powerful, but skill is more pertinent than power. She also has a blaster, which might give some problems to Fisto in that he could get surprised, but Shii-Cho is good at repelling blaster bolts anyway. Kit Fisto scantly wins both this round and the tournament.

@shootingnova: I think Xesh could take Fisto just by abusing Force power.

@shootingnova: Thanks for the very detailed run-down.

One comment I'd make is that Ventress fought both Luminara and Ahsoka together and Ventress seemed to have the upper hand, temporarily blinding Luminara and eventually trapping her under a column (to be rescued in the nick of time by Ahsoka), while Ventress never seemed to be in too much danger. The fight ended without a victor, but I'd probably give Ventress the slight edge against a solo Luminara.

Xesh's dueling ability isn't totally clear because the skill of his opponents' isn't completely established either--he's obviously good, but it's hard to say how good he is in comparison with the others. But I agree that his Force lightning abilities are a unique bonus for him in this competition.

@owie: Well him owning the three protagonist padawans who have decent Force and speed feats like using tutaminis on bullets, making balls of Force lightning ect shows he's pretty skilled. He also LOLstomped a fellow Force Hound who had trained in the darkside since infancy. Hes reasonably skilled. But his Force powers are quite far beyond Fisto's. Killing 3 force sensitives in one lightning blast, dominating 3 strong Force users in TK, ripping apart the rocky ground beneath him with TK, ect.

Good point, I guess there are some objective ways to measure all their feats outside their one-on-one competitions.

I thought that was what I said. Ventress is superior to Luminara, since Luminara lost. She needed Ahsoka at her side to stalemate Ventress, and Ventress was the one who was landing the occasional blows on the Jedi - the Jedi were pretty much defending throughout the fight.

Possibly. However, is that morals on for him? I'd be lying if I said I wasn't ignorant on Xesh, but I do have rudimentary knowledge - to some degree - but not enough to determine what his morals are. Fisto seems to be the more skilled and faster opponent, and his power is not necessarily inconsiderable - he effortlessly redirected missiles and manipulated several underwater vessels as well as their pilots. However, I'm not sure if Xesh would have beaten Saesee Tiin.

After some revision, I could see Vodo being potentially rivaling Shaak. He should definitely be in the same tier, but for lack of feats and therefore more difficulty to discern his advantages and disadvantages against other opponents, I'd mark him as the loser (Shaak also seems to have more dexterity and more [and more potent] combat-applicable powers, which should giver her the win).

@shootingnova: It's definitely within his morals. He's actually holding a weapon that is powered by the dark side and doesnt work without it.

@i_like_swords: I see. I suppose he could win in that fashion, although I'm not entirely sure he would neglect his saber.

@shootingnova: His saber would be a go-to but he literally always chains the Force into his fights. If the fight became strenuous he'd fall back on the Force even more heavily than before. Like he did in the 3v1.

@i_like_swords: He could probably win, then, but not every time. I'm not sure how many rounds to give him.

@i_like_swords: I'd like to see what your thoughts are on some of the other battles. This thread has voluminous discussion potential, and I'd like to see that discussion potential realized.

@shootingnova: Well.. I think Kao Cen Darach can give Koon a solid fight, possibly winning through Force power. I dunno.. dont know alot about most of these characters.

@i_like_swords: How is Kao winning through Force power? He had to exert considerable effort to lift those mechanical parts in Return. Koon required only as much, or less, effort to collapse an entire cave.

Kao is roughly as skilled as Koon, but Plo is more powerful.

@shootingnova: True. Its just that he seems to have better combative application of the Force like through his Force blasts and redirecting lightning.

@i_like_swords: Redirecting Lightning will be useless in this fight because Koon is incredibly unlikely to utilize his Electric Judgment, and Kao's Force blasts were performed against a featless Malgus - power-wise, at least.

@i_like_swords: How much insight do you think you could give on some of the other matchups?

@shootingnova: Not that much.. I'm alright with mainstream characters now but I still know little about the more underused ones. Maybe @dccomicsrule2011 or @jedixman will find this thread interesting? I dunno. Sorry I can't give any more insight on this one.

@i_like_swords: That's fine. I just thought this was a thread that had plenty of discussion value, even if it was complicated.

Oh, you're right, that is what you said about Luminara, my bad. Somehow my mind went wandering. And I agree with i_like_swords, Xesh would be fine with using his force lightning in this case.

If you like this thread, there is also a Sith version.

@owie: Jedi tend to be less used than Sith, but I'll check out the thread.

@dccomicsrule2011 I'd like to hear your opinion on the outcome.

I'm far to lazy to complete the bracket at the moment, but I will say I see Plo-Koon winning it all in the end.

@dccomicsrule2011: Interesting. Why does he beat Saesee?

*shurgs* I just do. I think they're pretty much even in most regards. I decided to do the bracket thing after all so you can read my case for Plo there.

@dccomicsrule2011: I'll look forward to your complete bracket.

What the hell, I guess I have the time to go over it.... To copy Nova's format:

Round 1

Leia vs Ki-Adi Mundi: I'm giving this to Leia. They should be even in skill, and power - but no speed feat he has matches Leia running kilometers in seconds. So I'm giving it to her simply because they're pretty much even in every regard besides speed via feats.

2. Shaak Ti vs Vodo-Siosk Baas: Shaak. Vodo is lacking in feats, while Shaak isn't swimming in feats either, they're still better then anything Vodo has ever shown. And if we based it soely on accolades and hype - Shaak would still edge him out since she has been placed on par with Windu and the like (take from that what you will)

3. Aayla Secura vs Dass Jennir: Aayla. Dass is too lacking in feats to actually make a case for him. While Secura, has some impressive ones under her belt.

4. Luminara Unduli vs Rahm Kota: Luminara. Better feats, better hype, just better all around.

Right

1. Kit Fisto vs Xesh: This should be a very close bout, but I'm giving the slight edge to Fisto. Xesh should be more powerful in the Force, but Fisto is a bit faster, and is undoubtedly the better duelist. Then again, my knowledge on Xesh is beyond limited so... *throws up hands*

2. Oppo Rancisis vs Mara Jade: Mara Jade. Oppo maybe powerful in the Force, but none of her specialty Force powers were help her much in direct combat, plus, Mara is one of the most skilled Jedi of the NJO.

3. Saesee Tiin vs Agen Kolar: Saesee Tiin. While Kolar is the superior duelist, his Force feats are beyond lacking, Tiin should take this.

4. Plo Koon vs Kao Cen Darach: Plo. Kao is severely lacking in feats, while his dueling feats are decent, and his TK feats are solid, Koon has stalemated Ventress and has collapsed an entire cave with TK. Koon also has the luxury as being called one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live - and accolade that is nothing to scoff at. Simply out, Plo is just better.

Round 2:

Leia vs Shaak Ti: I'm lazy so I'm just going to jack Nova's reason:

To be honest, Leia. I'd present her the skill edge, which should be relatively marginal but still noticeable. Their power and other Force related feats are roughly even (one could certainly make a case for Leia being somewhat superior, but I'll let that go for now), but Leia is also faster and that, combined with her skill advantage, grants her the win.

Pretty much this.

Luminara vs Aayla: Luminara. They're probably even in ever regard except TK, in which Luminara holds the advantage.....so Luminara should win it.

Mara Jade vs Kit Fisto: I want to say Mara Buddha knows I do, but Fisto's skill feats are just better.

Saesee Tiin vs Plo Koon: Great fight, and probably one of the most evenly matched ones here. In terms of power, both have been confirmed to be two of the most powerful Jedi to ever live, and their feats are equally impressive in TK (though I may give Plo the slight edge in the Force department overall) They are both highly esteemed duelist who have both been named two of the greatest swordsman in the Order, but I'm giving it to Plo, simply because he has the feat that matches the accolade, stalemating Ventress is better then anything Saesee has ever done, now I could be wrong here and I could be relying on feats to much - but when two fighters are this evenly matched, what else can I use to determain the winner?

Round 3:

Leia vs Luminara: Leia should take this honestly. They are roughly even in skill probably (with Leia maybe taking the slight advantage) but Organa is most certainly faster, while Luminara maybe more powerful in the Force, skill almost always beat Force abilities as long the the margin is gaping - which, it isn't here. That being said, Leia should have it here.

Plo Koon vs Kit Fisto: *rubs temples* this one is hard. I'm giving Plo the majority though. Only because he is at a form disadvantage here. They're roughly even in the Force( though one could make a case for Plo being more powerful if only beccause of being named by sources as one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live) as well as dueling skill and accolades via feats.

Final round:

Leia vs Plo Koon: Plo Koon should take this. Leia may hold a small speed advatange, but Plo is more powerful in the Force, and should be a better swordsman. All in all, I see Plo taking the majority.

@dccomicsrule2011: Interesting. I agree with some of it, and I also disagree with some of it. I can see a lot of discussion potential already if you are willing to continuously trade points with me.

I'd like to see why you'd give Plo the power edge. Saesee has, seemingly with only moderate effort, hurled a droid four kilometers. That should rival Koon, to be honest.

Also, Koon shouldn't be more skilled. I don't recall him being listed as one of the best in the Order (I may have overlooked a number of sources, though), and to be fair, Kenobi suggested that Tiin was one of the best swordsmen the Order had ever produced, not just of their time. Regarding feats, I think sparring evenly with Windu puts him as a direct equal to Koon.

Plo Koon vs Kit Fisto: *rubs temples* this one is hard. I'm giving Plo the majority though. Only because he is at a form disadvantage here. They're roughly even in the Force( though one could make a case for Plo being more powerful if only beccause of being named by sources as one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live) as well as dueling skill and accolades via feats.

Hmm..... well, Fisto is also faster. I do think Plo should be clearly more powerful, though.

IMO Fisto takes it, he actually survived against the emperor for three strokes, which is pretty insane considering he oneshotted both Kolar and Tiin, as well as taking on and (imo) beating grievous in a fight. He has some pretty insane swordsmanship and was ridiculously fast. I see it coming down (on the right) Fisto vs Tiin and Leia taking the left. After which Fisto beats Tiin, then after a long, bloody battle, takes leia. After which he gets shot by Han.

This is a good showing for speed, but not so much skill. The reason Kolar and Tiin died was simply because they weren't fast enough to react - their skill should have been on par with Fisto. Also, since this was derived off the film, I also recall the amped Windu assisting Fisto in deflecting one of Palpatine's strikes as well.

Forcing back TCW Grievous is only a decent feat, not an incredible one, especially considering how Fisto's Shii-Cho is acclimated towards and advantaged against fighting multiple opponents, or, in this case, an opponent with multiple weapons.

LOL.

@dccomicsrule2011: How many Mara Jade feats can you recall that were impressive? Dueling ones, especially.

@dccomicsrule2011: Thanks for the detailed break-down. It's very interesting for me to see where you guys agree and differ.

@shootingnova:

Interesting. I agree with some of it, and I also disagree with some of it. I can see a lot of discussion potential already if you are willing to continuously trade points with me.

Hmm why not? I haven't had a debate like this in a while now. Let's see how I stack up.

I'd like to see why you'd give Plo the power edge. Saesee has, seemingly with only moderate effort, hurled a droid four kilometers. That should rival Koon, to be honest.

IIRC, Koon displayed only moderate effort when he collapsed the cave as well. Maybe it's just me, but I always find Plo's feat to be a little more impressive then Tiin's *shrugs*. Although it's not really relevant in a fight, Plo also knows more esoteric Force abilities that could play a roll.

Also, Koon shouldn't be more skilled. I don't recall him being listed as one of the best in the Order (I may have overlooked a number of sources, though),

I looked back and I coulnd't find it either. But I swear I read it somewhere. It could have been in the Star Wars characters encyclopedia (the same book he was named one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live). So for the sake of the argument, I'm going to just discount it since I can't prove it.

and to be fair, Kenobi suggested that Tiin was one of the best swordsmen the Order had ever produced, not just of their time.

Ehh. I questions the legitimacy of such claims, when Obi-Wan, would have no clue how skilled some of the older Jedi that came before exactly was.

Regarding feats, I think sparring evenly with Windu puts him as a direct equal to Koon

Hmmm I guess. Though as we've both stated before, it's very close and could go either way.

Hmm..... well, Fisto is also faster. I do think Plo should be clearly more powerful, though.

True, but I don't think it would matter to much. Kit's speed advantage is only marginal, while Plo's power advantage is a little bigger then that. Plus, as I've stated before, Kit is at a form disadvantage - to be frank I don't see him beating Tiin or Plo in one-on-one combat for a majority.

How many Mara Jade feats can you recall that were impressive? Dueling ones, especially.

She has faired well against Vong warriors. That really the only feat I could think of atm.

No problem. This thread has so much potential - I hope it generates a great discussion.

This should be interesting.

It's not that overwhelming. When you collapse something, you also have the support of gravity. There shouldn't be any difference.

I agree that those are irrelevant - it would have no bearing at all.

Alright.

There shouldn't be much reason to contest that claim. Obi-Wan fought alongside Saesee at least once (on Geonosis), and likely would have had other scenarios where they fought together in order to formulate such an opinion (for example, we do know he has fought with Kit Fisto and Mace Windu before). Agen Kolar and Mace Windu were also outright stated by objective sources to be one of the best in the history of the Order, which should somewhat strengthen Obi-Wan's claim anyways.

Even if he didn't fight with them, the fact that those claims were made should attest to the fact that it was rather common knowledge that they were so skilled.

It's not marginal. Kit Fisto forming cyclones out of his blade exceeds any speed advantage Koon has ever shown. In fact, only one of Koon's speed feats, to my memory, is above that of a typical Jedi.

I always considered her showings against Jacen to be PIS.

@shootingnova:

It's not that overwhelming. When you collapse something, you also have the support of gravity. There shouldn't be any difference.

Well I guess they are more or less even feat wise, But Plo has the accolade that calles him one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live, an accolade that outstrips Tiin's. Yes I'm playing schematics, but when it's this close, there really isn't much else to indicate who is more powerful then whom.

I agree that those are irrelevant - it would have no bearing at all.

Alright.

There shouldn't be much reason to contest that claim. Obi-Wan fought alongside Saesee at least once (on Geonosis), and likely would have had other scenarios where they fought together in order to formulate such an opinion (for example, we do know he has fought with Kit Fisto and Mace Windu before). Agen Kolar and Mace Windu were also outright stated by objective sources to be one of the best in the history of the Order, which should somewhat strengthen Obi-Wan's claim anyways.

Alright then. But I still don't think a character can accurately make a claim as someone being one of the "best ever" when they have only seen a fraction of which they speak.

It's not marginal. Kit Fisto forming cyclones out of his blade exceeds any speed advantage Koon has ever shown. In fact, only one of Koon's speed feats, to my memory, is above that of a typical Jedi.

Koon wrecking several droids in an army, and destroying many of them in the time it takes for a clone to say three words, and in the process leaves blue hazes of light, while deflecting several blaster bolts is far from "average". I still stand by the speed advantage being marginal and won't really be a problem for Koon at all.

I always considered her showings against Jacen to be PIS.

Yeah...Mara has no businesses contending against Jacen.

As an aside, I plan on reading the New Republic/NJO to gather feats for the Jedi of that era....I think they're much potential for them in the battle forum against Old Republic and ROTE Jedi/Sith, but not enough people know about them to comment.

That's certainly what I was hoping when I made it, so it's great to see it being picked up now. And like I said to nova, there's a similar Sith bracket too if you're interested.

But then, Tiin has an accolade which outstrips Plo's, in skill, and skill > power.

Well, he has seen Saesee fight before, which should be enough. There's no reason for him to make a useless claim without knowing about what he is speaking.

Which is exactly what I said. That is one speed feat Koon has shown that is above average. Kit Fisto's speed edge should be noticeable.

To be honest, Mara seems to get a lot of PIS in general. Or maybe it's just Jacen.

I Would like to know what those force abilites are? I know he can use lightning, but I figured that Tinn's Tutaminis would be more than enough to counter that.

Edit- my brain failed seeing Tinn as Shann. Forget I said anything :P

@laflux: Alter Environment, Electric Judgment.