Boss Rabbit runs Toriko Gauntlet

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#51 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain said:

@juiceboks: yeah I mean it make no sense scaling wise.

I mean the ability was use a grand total of 1 time. Against normal person who wasn't really stronger than him so for all we know it could function like all the other haxs in in the series and just failed the moment it is used against someone stronger. I mean it's definitely possible that could also have size or physiological limitl to it as well. But at the same time there's no proof that it doesn't work on Kaiju more larger and stronger than him.

I think it's much more likely to assume there is a limit, but where that limit lies is where we get into conjecture. And generally when it comes to this I take the context of the story and the limits of the character's overall power, which is why I say that him possessing planet level power would make no sense. Otherwise there isn't any real counterargument for someone arguing him transmuting a galaxy-sized creature into a galaxy-sized carrot. This doesn't apply to all hax, but for physical abilities I think it's a fair way of determining the most probable limitations.

The way I see it . yes a character needs to prove that have some resistance to a hax.But one hand you cannot assume a hack could work on something or someone it's a literally never been tested against. especially if it's at a higher level than what it has been shown to be capable of doing.

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#52 Edited by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: it doesn’t make your range planet level... and by planet level being I meant someone that can casually planet bust.

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#53 Posted by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks said:
@bossmountain said:

@juiceboks: yeah I mean it make no sense scaling wise.

I mean the ability was use a grand total of 1 time. Against normal person who wasn't really stronger than him so for all we know it could function like all the other haxs in in the series and just failed the moment it is used against someone stronger. I mean it's definitely possible that could also have size or physiological limitl to it as well. But at the same time there's no proof that it doesn't work on Kaiju more larger and stronger than him.

I think it's much more likely to assume there is a limit, but where that limit lies is where we get into conjecture. And generally when it comes to this I take the context of the story and the limits of the character's overall power, which is why I say that him possessing planet level power would make no sense. Otherwise there isn't any real counterargument for someone arguing him transmuting a galaxy-sized creature into a galaxy-sized carrot. This doesn't apply to all hax, but for physical abilities I think it's a fair way of determining the most probable limitations.

The way I see it . yes a character needs to prove that have some resistance to a hax.But one hand you cannot assume a hack could work on something or someone it's a literally never been tested against. especially if it's at a higher level than what it has been shown to be capable of doing.

Lol so why would you inversely assume a hax (which by very nature ignores conventional stats and durability) would be resisted by someone who has literally never come across or witnessed such hax?

One argument is based on attributing resistance to people that have never resisted anything like that by limiting (through conjecture) the ability of something else because you don’t want it to affect X person despite X person never resisting said hax.

And it’s not a NLF because resistance to said hax is by default a limit, and other things too.

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#54 Edited by juiceboks (25169 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: Busting has no place in this discussion as nothing is being destroyed. Affecting a planet sized area makes your power planet level.

I misspoke earlier as range would only apply to the distance at which he could activate his power, which isn't very notable.

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#55 Posted by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I know that... I literally just explained to you what i meant by “planet level being” not someone the size of a planet but someone that can bust one.

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#56 Edited by juiceboks (25169 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: That's fine but that's clearly not what I meant by that term and you're the one that @ed me trying to explain why you thought I was wrong.

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#57 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz:

Lol so why would you inversely assume a hax (which by very nature ignores conventional stats and durability) would be resisted by someone who has literally never come across or witnessed such hax?

Resist isn't the right word cuz I'm not implying that these characters would be resistance to it. More like the hack might fail if it tries to do something beyond what has been shown to be capable of. Based off that one showing of a transmuting a single normal person all you can really conclude is that it can work on a single normal people. Saying that you can work on Kaiju which has a completely different physiology and size much less small planet size Kaiju will definitely need more feats and more data on how it actually works.

One argument is based on attributing resistance to people that have never resisted anything like that by limiting (through conjecture) the ability of something else because you don’t want it to affect X person despite X person never resisting said hax.

And it’s not a NLF because resistance to said hax is by default a limit, and other things too.

no but the end the day if you're going to say that it could work on kaijus with 100% certainty you're going to actually have to prove it and unfortunately the fact that it can work on a 16 year old girl isn't close to being enough proof to justify that conclusion.

Admittedly claiming with 100% that these characters can resist it to would also be committing the same fallacy.

The whole point is thread l to see if there was anyone smart enough to realize that there's not enough data here to reach a logical conclusion. A single test sample isn't nearly enough.

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#58 Posted by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: does their physiology grant them resistance? No? Okay then.

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#59 Edited by SergeantMuscle (277 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: example: boss rabbit hax been shown to not work on inanimate objects or materials made of such.

The Tinman can shake his hand just fine. It doesn't mean the tinman has transmutation resistance since the candy beam can easily turn him into candy as has been shown to work on metal and rocks. All this really means that his physiology falls outside of reaches of the carrot touch effectiveness. Not that he possessed any kind of special for the resistance.

Things boss rabbit hack have been proven to affect : Normal humans.

Things you're trying to apply it to

: kaijus. Kaiju are not normal humans. So there's no proof that it can affect them..

Not to say that that they are immune. But more Feats are required to make an adequate assumption.

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#60 Edited by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz said:

@bossmountain: does their physiology grant them resistance? No? Okay then.

not saying it grand resistance I'm saying that the hack is not proven to work on kaijus and it's not.

@sergeantmuscle said:

@ecoblitz: example: boss rabbit hax been shown to not work on inanimate objects or materials made of such.

The Tinman can shake his hand just fine. It doesn't mean the tinman has transmutation resistance since the candy beam can easily turn him into candy as has been shown to work on metal and rocks. All this really means that his physiology falls outside of reaches of the carrot touch effectiveness. Not that he possessed any kind of special for the resistance.

Things boss rabbit hack have been proven to affect : Normal humans.

Things you're trying to apply it to

: kaijus. Kaiju are not normal humans. So there's no proof that it can affect them..

Not to say that that they are immune. But more Feats are required to make an adequate assumption.

^Basically this

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#61 Posted by zgtfreak (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: Not really you just were dismissed all the other instances of them simply being exceptions. I say depend on the hax.

Rare poorly written exceptions are still just an exception to logic, not an example.

yeah you claim my logic makes comparing fiction impossible but you don't explain how.

I did with the chakra ki thing alone.

Many of the 8 kings on this list are non human kaijus. Something that we literally have no idea this ability can even work against.

Kaijus? So they are huge? If they are far bigger than a human, then I don't see Boss Rabbit's hax working. I thought they were human sized.

Which makes sense just because a person has an ability to nullify chakra doesn't mean he has the ability to nullify Ki.

I agree; but I am using your logic of them having no feats of harming the other on any level (even physically), because the physics of their body and their power systems are different. We even see that the physical mechanics of the body between Naruto and DB work differently (such as how training effects their bodies in entirely different ways and at different growth rates). So they have no feats of harming someone with different physics than their fiction, so we can't assume they can. See how far I can your logic?

Unless you believe this level of transmutation is powerful enough to affect large planet-sized beings even though the biggest Monster Carrot has affected is Bulma, he's not clearing.

So these guys ARE planet size? I thought they were human size. Then the hax shouldn't work in the case of transmutation.

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#62 Posted by baph (2951 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: you gotta provide evidence that it's instant though

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#63 Posted by maybetomorrow (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: I don't see why the carrot touch would be more powerful than Buu's power. Nobody was able to show resistance to the candy power except Vegito. The carrot power was never used on Vegito, so its feats are not better than the candy power. Vegito would resist turning into a carrot unless the carrot power has feats showing other wise.

This argument is bad. There is no evidence in either direction which is more powerful all we know is that with Boss Rabbit no one has retained their consciousness upon turning into a carrot. Just because they’re both from the same series doesn’t mean we can reasonably scale them to one another or assume their are similar restrictions on how they work when there is no similarity between them beyond both being transmutation abilities.

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#64 Edited by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@bossmountain: Not really you just were dismissed all the other instances of them simply being exceptions. I say depend on the hax.

Rare poorly written exceptions are still just an exception to logic, not an example.

You can't just dismiss every instance of a character resisting a hack with raw power as bad writing. Then again there's other factors that could lead to a character other than power..

yeah you claim my logic makes comparing fiction impossible but you don't explain how.

I did with the chakra ki thing alone..

Yeah and I pointed out how a lot of the hacks in Naruto would not carry over into Dragon Ball Z since a lot of them is based on manipulating the chakras within their targets.

Many of the 8 kings on this list are non human kaijus. Something that we literally have no idea this ability can even work against.

Kaijus? So they are huge? If they are far bigger than a human, then I don't see Boss Rabbit's hax working. I thought they were human sized.

What difference does that make going by your initial logic? So what if some of the Kaijus mentioned are the sized of small planets? They have no transmutation resistance and there's no proof that there's a size limitation to this hack.

Which makes sense just because a person has an ability to nullify chakra doesn't mean he has the ability to nullify Ki.

I agree; but I am using your logic of them having no feats of harming the other on any level (even physically), because the physics of their body and their power systems are different. We even see that the physical mechanics of the body between Naruto and DB work differently (such as how training effects their bodies in entirely different ways and at different growth rates). So they have no feats of harming someone with different physics than their fiction, so we can't assume they can. See how far I can your logic?

You do know kinetic forces universal.. right? And hacks and physical attacks are not really the same at all .. I think you would call this a false equivalency.

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#65 Posted by AlexTheBoss (19674 posts) - - Show Bio

@maybetomorrow: There is no reason to believe Buu's power would have a random weakness to powerful characters. The point was to show off how powerful Vegito was, not to show that Buu's technique is flawed. It is a feat for Vegito, not a negative feat for Buu. Buu is one of the strongest magicians in the universe, even giving problems to the current enemy in DBS, monster Carrot has nothing to imply his power should be stronger, therefore Vegito should be able to resist it, as he has shown to be able to resist basic transmutation, and monster Carrot's power is not shown to be beyond basic transmutation.

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#66 Posted by maybetomorrow (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@maybetomorrow: There is no reason to believe Buu's power would have a random weakness to powerful characters. The point was to show off how powerful Vegito was, not to show that Buu's technique is flawed. It is a feat for Vegito, not a negative feat for Buu. Buu is one of the strongest magicians in the universe, even giving problems to the current enemy in DBS, monster Carrot has nothing to imply his power should be stronger, therefore Vegito should be able to resist it, as he has shown to be able to resist basic transmutation, and monster Carrot's power is not shown to be beyond basic transmutation.

Again, there is nothing that allows them to be scaled to one another. That’s my only issue, this honest to god stupid scaling you’re doing. I’m not arguing Vegito can or can’t resist Monster Carrot’s ability, it’s merely that Buu and Monster Carrot have nothing to do with one another. There is not even any evidence in the series that his powers are based on magic, calling it basic transmutation doesn’t change that. I’m not saying Buu’s is stronger or weaker all I am saying is scaling them to one another is dumb and nothing can change that.

What he has done against Moro is irrelevant in regards to his transmutation, higher power doesn’t mean his hax would scale up by default. The only problem I have is that their abilities don’t scale to one another and that’s what you’re trying to do for some reason. If this was Monster carrot vs Vegito I could see it‘s relevance, but Buu and Vegito have nothing to do with a discussion on if Monster carrot can affect Toriko high tiers.

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#67 Posted by AlexTheBoss (19674 posts) - - Show Bio

@maybetomorrow:

Again, there is nothing that allows them to be scaled to one another.

I know, which means monster carrot has no feats above Buu's.

That’s my only issue, this honest to god stupid scaling you’re doing.

I'm not doing any scaling. Monster carrot's power worked on a regular human. So did Buu's. That's all we know about them in comparison to each other. To say Buu's is weaker because it didn't work on ssj Vegito, even though it worked on people stronger than Bulma is ridiculous.

It is possible Monster carrot's power would work on Vegito, but it doesn't have the feats to suggest it does. That's how debating works.

I’m not arguing Vegito can or can’t resist Monster Carrot’s ability, it’s merely that Buu and Monster Carrot have nothing to do with one another.

They are both powers that transform characters into food. They may work differently, but Buu's power is actually the one with the better feats.

There is not even any evidence in the series that his powers are based on magic, calling it basic transmutation doesn’t change that. I’m not saying Buu’s is stronger or weaker all I am saying is scaling them to one another is dumb and nothing can change that.

There is no scaling, it's on panel feats.

What he has done against Moro is irrelevant in regards to his transmutation, higher power doesn’t mean his hax would scale up by default.

It tends to in dragon ball. It's not just Buu's power, Frieza outright resisted haki with pure power.

The only problem I have is that their abilities don’t scale to one another and that’s what you’re trying to do for some reason.

No I'm not. They are just both abilities with similar principals. Vegito has shown resistance to being turned into food. To say its a fault in Buu's power and not Vegito's power is an assumption, and one that goes against the clear narrative being presented. Like I said, Toriyama did that to show how powerful Vegito was, not the flaw of Buu.

If this was Monster carrot vs Vegito I could see it‘s relevance, but Buu and Vegito have nothing to do with a discussion on if Monster carrot can affect Toriko high tiers.

I never said Monster carrot's power wouldn't affect Toriko high tiers, I said that it's only a theoretical possibility due to the power difference, but if you actually read what I've been typing, you would have seen I agreed Monster Carrots' power should work unless they have a feat against transmutation...

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#68 Posted by zgtfreak (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: You can't just dismiss every instance of a character resisting a hack with raw power as bad writing. Then again there's other factors that could lead to a character other than power..

I'm not dismissing it as bad writing. I am saying it is an exception to the rule, not the example. I just mentioned it being bad writing on the side because it is.

Yeah and I pointed out how a lot of the hacks in Naruto would not carry over into Dragon Ball Z since a lot of them is based on manipulating the chakras within their targets.

I agree.

What difference does that make going by your initial logic? So what if some of the Kaijus mentioned are the sized of small planets? They have no transmutation resistance and there's no proof that there's a size limitation to this hack.

Because transmutation (to some degree) is still a physical hax in most cases. We don't see Boss Rabbit turning the continent or planet into a carrot to help him in a fight. Durability is different from size. We have no reason to assume that Boss's range extends that far. It's different with durability. Transmutation should ignore just your average physical durability logically, as it has nothing to do with durability in the first place like punching someone would; thus Boss Rabbit ignoring raw physical durability is fine, as that is the very nature of those types of hax. Having planet level range or something is not innate trait of transmutation hax like ignoring durability is; thus we need to prove he has the range.

You do know kinetic forces universal.. right? And hacks and physical attacks are not really the same at all .. I think you would call this a false equivalency.

The way kinetic forces work can vary from fiction to fiction. And again, I am just taking your logic to the highest degree, because that is how far your logic goes (aka down a bad road). Best not to think like that honestly.

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#69 Edited by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@bossmountain: You can't just dismiss every instance of a character resisting a hack with raw power as bad writing. Then again there's other factors that could lead to a character other than power..

I'm not dismissing it as bad writing. I am saying it is an exception to the rule, not the example. I just mentioned it being bad writing on the side because it is.

But my point is that haxs vary in magnitude and limitations and even conditions to the point where there isn't a gold standard rule even the word hax is not even a real term and there's not even agreed upon definition it's something completely invented by the vs community. The point is that we've seen things like transmutation Soul manipulation accelerated aging mind control existence erasing all fail when used against a character with too much power. Want this is obviously not the case for all hacks you still have to prove that the hack can be used on someone stronger than you first to confirm that this isn't the case.

.

Because transmutation (to some degree) is still a physical hax in most cases.

I thought you say it was metaphysical earlier.

We don't see Boss Rabbit turning the continent or planet into a carrot to help him in a fight.

Just because we never seen him do it doesn't mean he can't. Also his hack don't work on inorganic things.

Durability is different from size. We have no reason to assume that Boss's range extends that far.

Many people already pointed out in this size don't matter. If you got no resistance to transmuation you can be the size of a galaxy and still get turned.

It's different with durability. Transmutation should ignore just your average physical durability logically,as it has nothing to do with durability in the first place like punching someone would; thus Boss Rabbit ignoring raw physical durability is fine, as that is the very nature of those types of hax. Having planet level range or something is not innate trait of transmutation hax like ignoring durability is; thus we need to prove he has the range

Not all do. It's possible for a a material to be too tough to transmute for example boss Rabbit hax do not work on things like wood ,steel or metal.

You do know kinetic forces universal.. right? And hacks and physical attacks are not really the same at all .. I think you would call this a false equivalency.

The way kinetic forces work can vary from fiction to fiction. And again, I am just taking your logic to the highest degree, because that is how far your logic goes (aka down a bad road). Best not to think like that honestly.

Sorry I'm pretty sure a punch in the face is universal. Regardless of your kinetic laws off my statement only applied to haxs not physical damage.

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#70 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#71 Posted by zgtfreak (3067 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: But my point is that haxs vary in magnitude and limitations and even conditions to the point where there isn't a gold standard rule even the word hax is not even a real term and there's not even agreed upon definition it's something completely invented by the vs community.

It doesn't matter if hax have different magnitudes if the target has shown no resistance in the first place.

The point is that we've seen things like transmutation Soul manipulation accelerated aging mind control existence erasing all fail when used against a character with too much power.

That means their hax are garbage, or that the person's raw power gives them resistances to those hax. Again, an exception, not an example.

Want this is obviously not the case for all hacks you still have to prove that the hack can be used on someone stronger than you first to confirm that this isn't the case.

Nope. The person needing resistance to it is far more logical under normal circumstances.

I thought you say it was metaphysical earlier.

Yeah, I'm correcting myself. DB transmutation probably isn't metaphysical, or maybe it is? DB isn't into physics much. Not sure to be honest now. But it doesn't matter much here.

Just because we never seen him do it doesn't mean he can't. Also his hack don't work on inorganic things.

Too much assumption.

Many people already pointed out in this size don't matter. If you got no resistance to transmuation you can be the size of a galaxy and still get turned.

I already explained this.

Not all do. It's possible for a a material to be too tough to transmute for example boss Rabbit hax do not work on things like wood ,steel or metal.

Assumption. Plus that's like saying dirt is too physically durable for him to transmute because just because it isn't organic.

Sorry I'm pretty sure a punch in the face is universal. Regardless of your kinetic laws off my statement only applied to haxs not physical damage.

The way the physics of the punch work can be different. And again, I am taking your logic to the highest degree, which goes beyond hax; just to show you that it isn't really a good way of thinking.

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#72 Posted by juiceboks (25169 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Well only Snake King is planet-sized given the length of her body is 220,000 km long. Keep in mind that's a little more than half the circumference of Jupiter. The other Kings vary in size from the smallest Bambina who is about as big as a regular person and the second largest Deer King who is 60 km long.

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#73 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@bossmountain: But my point is that haxs vary in magnitude and limitations and even conditions to the point where there isn't a gold standard rule even the word hax is not even a real term and there's not even agreed upon definition it's something completely invented by the vs community.

It doesn't matter if hax have different magnitudes if the target has shown no resistance in the first place.

So boss rabbit solos right? it doesn't matter if G.o.d is larger than our moon or if snake king is longer than the circumference of Neptune. They haven't shown any resistance and there's no proof that Boss Rabbit has a size limit.

The point is that we've seen things like transmutation Soul manipulation accelerated aging mind control existence erasing all fail when used against a character with too much power.

That means their hax are garbage, or that the person's raw power gives them resistances to those hax. Again, an exception, not an example.

There is no exceptions since there is no rule. Haxs are a completely fan-made term (like outerversal) invented by The verse Community used to label certain abilities. There isn't even agreed-upon definition let alone a rule.

Want this is obviously not the case for all hacks you still have to prove that the hack can be used on someone stronger than you first to confirm that this isn't the case.

Nope. The person needing resistance to it is far more logical under normal circumstances.

I disagree with that besides the burden of proof falls in the one making the affirmative claim. You can't just say my powers works on stronger people when it's never been shown to do that.

Too much assumption.

You're the one making the Assumption here by adding a size limitation to boss rabbit hax. Just because he's never transmuted someone larger than Neptune doesn't mean he can't.

Many people already pointed out in this size don't matter. If you got no resistance to transmuation you can be the size of a galaxy and still get turned.

I already explained this.

Your explanation was simple to add a weakness that wasn't there there's nothing that says he can't transmute planet-sized creatures.

Not all do. It's possible for a a material to be too tough to transmute for example boss Rabbit hax do not work on things like wood ,steel or metal.

Assumption. Plus that's like saying dirt is too physically durable for him to transmute because just because it isn't organic.

True but considering that his touch has fail on Goku's power pole and the mallet he was holding or Yamcha sword is a safe bet that it doesn't work on inorganic things for whatever reason.

Sorry I'm pretty sure a punch in the face is universal. Regardless of your kinetic laws off my statement only applied to haxs not physical damage.

The way the physics of the punch work can be different. And again, I am taking your logic to the highest degree, which goes beyond hax; just to show you that it isn't really a good way of thinking.

Yeah but again I wasn't appling it to physical attacks plus there are scientific and objective ways to measure physical attack potency this can't be said for Haxs which doesn't even have an objective definition.

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#74 Posted by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is just a long winded way of OP wanting some hax from people weaker than goku durability and potency wise to not work on goku despite is almost borderline no resistance to hax.

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#75 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: This an experiment to see if people are smart enough to realize that there's not enough information to reach a logical conclusion.

I even zgtfreak change his stance! And that he doesn't believe that the hack would not work on snake king or God when he realize that snake king is longer than the planet Neptune and G.o.d is bigger than our moon.

So he's almost at the point of realizing there's not enough data here.

Not to mention the obvious fact that burden of proof always fall the one making the affirmative claim! you can't say that my powers can work on people stronger than me when it's never been shown to do this. Like is the case here.

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#76 Posted by EcoBlitz (6181 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: I never talked about size in my post...

And for the umpteenth time... you being physically stronger or having bigger boom boom does not give you resistance to telepathy, matter manipulation or other forms of hax which ignore conventional stats.

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#77 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: dude I never once said that being more powerful grand resistance.

Whether a stronger character is outside of the ranges of an ability depends on that ability.

Second I think it's time we discard idea of Hax.

Hax is a completely fan-made term invented by the vs community that doesn't even have a offical definition and what abilities even count as a Hax varies wildly from person to person let alone from site to site.

Characters don't have Hax they have skills, powers, & abilities.

And whether these skills powers and abilities ignore stats depends on showings and what was stated we can't just assume it automatically does.

Don't get me wrong resistance is important. since the burden of proof falls in the one making the claim if someone claims they can resist ability they have proof it too.

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#78 Posted by Bossmountain (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: to make this simple

can Toriko resist transmutation? no!

he hasn't shown any kind of resistance to it.

Can boss rabbit turn characters as powerful as Toriko into a carrot no because it hasn't been shown to be working on stronger people.

The candy Beam on on the other hand will work on Toriko just fine because it has been proven to be able to work on stronger people And Toriko has no resistance