Bloodlusted Jean Grey vs Thor - can she beat him?

If Phoenix Emma couldn’t get into his head neither can Jean. Her best bet is TK but I’m not sure if she can put him down with that

@onsipin: @del_torro: @lordofallhumans:

my theory is: jean beats thor with his own hammer(she can lift the hammer, cause she is worthy) case closed

Xavier knocked him out and wiped his mind in that same arc and Jean is on par with Xavier. Rachel was also trying to reach into his mind and there was that whole mind of a God thing like with Emma but it wasn't any problem for Rachel because she's been the phoenix, as has Jean. Just Emma not being able to do it is not a sufficient argument. You have to look at his overall performance against TP which as the others have shown is more consistent than it is not. So yes TP may not likely work out for her, but not just because Emma could not do it

her being worthy is purely your head-canon though...nothing in the comics has ever stated her to be worthy of lifting Mjolnir. Although Sue did lift mjolnir with Thor connected to it so she may be able to lift it in that manner since she is around as powerful as Sue. (Assuming this is 616)

@emmafrostxmen: Even with the Phoenix Emma has no experience with supernatural or cosmic beings. It wasn't power it was experience. She had more than enough power to get into his mind, but being Emma, regardless of having the some Phoenix power, she couldn't handle it. Xavier dropped his ass in the same arc with a thought. Telepathy works on Thor, he relies on his "godly mind" to hinder most telepaths. Jean has experience against minds Emma has never encountered.

@the_red_devil: 1) No, that isn’t how telepathic manipulation works, which Rocket Raccoon clearly states is what it was. Telepathic control of someone doesn’t inflict pain on the victim unless said victim resists and the telepath continues their assault of commands. A psychic wave, on the other hand, is a What you’re implying, which is not what happened.

You can clearly see in the panels everyone still standing and unharmed from the psychic command. If it were a psychic wave and it downed a powerful psychic like Jean and someone with a will as strong as Gladiators, everybody would’ve been on the ground trying to get back up. So, attributing Jean and Gladiators fights ending to Oracle stepping in is wrong.

2) It’s pretty clear that Jean kicked Oracle out of her head once Gladiator tried his attack again. When Oracle entered Jeans heads she nullified her pink form so that they could talk on peaceful terms.

Had Oracle been the one to do it, Jean still would’ve been held in Oracles grasp while Oracle shut Gladiator down mid-blitz. That isn’t what happened. But we clearly see Jean reactivate her power, implying that she broke out of Oracles grasp and kicked her out so that she could concentrate on Gladiator.

3) It was stated nowhere in the comic that she was more powerful than the older version. Even if they did, they changed that later on to make it a point that she was more powerful than regular Jean was AT HER AGE. Jeans older self is clearly still more powerful than her teenage version.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wGn4Si1uqfg/WjFBXLK0eDI/AAAAAAAABHE/6zE5QWWg6_k3JhzgypXn1BsdYWfvPQL6QCHMYCw/s1600/RCO017.jpg

Not to mention O5’s Jean was integrated into the real Jeans history, transferring all ownership of Teen Jeans feats to the real thing by virtue of Extermination #5.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FFPcBHphtpE/XBparZM0YtI/AAAAAAAAIBE/de0sKps4fu4HbDA4JGmZSnDpqNkIaxkggCHMYCw/s1600/RCO024.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ee_3bm5Vsz8/XBparxvb09I/AAAAAAAAIBI/MssMZNZ6768aaDeO55s8OvrPOBrsDPQ3ACHMYCw/s1600/RCO025.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E7fAOBUlfnM/XBpasv-7g6I/AAAAAAAAIBU/tA_k8adJ9oMursMD8E8LXCZZvc_wVCt9gCHMYCw/s1600/RCO026.jpg

4) Okay, there are many problems with that exclamation:

•We are dealing with regular Jean. We should measure what she could do by her own feats. Not with what she couldn’t do at Phoenix levels.

•I told you already. Phoenix was exhausted at that point from activating the stargate. It lasted up to at least their fight with Jahf, in which as Jean calls down a meteor with her tk, she mentions how exhausted she is. She is just barely getting to know her powers at that point, so we can’t expect her to be at full-form the very first time she turns into Phoenix.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/5SoCZPdTyY-NUQ_9XnSe7YruhU_ARbIswMGn6CHag4WW9P_BQ4_7TcJufJeiRo93bAz7asK4nJhe=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/wRlZWOlU9-99Y1fDEQNEPqAqM42m63koVbIwD9Yw54wkkijNNQ7i0eycBRNW6rmXNjgSvqVa8Dx6=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/vyLYtq0bbGfE551YZsWa2cdPE2BEH6tSLq28GvKrvb5JqpKGLKyRTWDx7DLgtvwUdn20mlObfNuW=s1600

•Green Phoenix has all the capabilities of Dark Phoenix. Back then she put on self-imposed limits so that she can handle her own power. Dark Phoenix doesn’t restrain herself the same way, but in essence, Green Phoenix can do what Dark Phoenix could.

@emmafrostxmen: Emma Frost is not end all be all deciding factor. In fact, she is far from it. Despite having a fifth of the Phoenix, Emma is no god, and therefore can’t handle the mind of one. Otherwise, she would be capable of handling the Phoenix in at least half of its level of power, but she can’t.

Jean could. And there is clear proof that she can handle information that only god-like beings could understand.

Why is hope Summers in this thread.

Anyway , yeah, if we go by Thor's high end resistance feats then she isn't taking him down with telepathy.

In highly doubtful that she can take him out with telekinesis

@pyrofn: With that logic: Jean isn’t a god, and hasn’t looked into the mind of one so she loses

@emmafrostxmen: You completely ignored what I said, didn’t you?

I said Jean has witnessed the fundamental forces of the universe because of her experience as Phoenix. That basically means she had the mind of a god. Both the Watcher and the Phoenix Force itself have said that together, Jean could’ve became a god with that power. So the little time she was with it gave her that immunity.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/62Cn6ls_9NRbG3vqxJK6m6B7pnbQBGziZ7HX9m6Iu9wU_wsn12L-yn59NHZhamKiUkTKTw1q2kQS=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/HhYVJ9GXZSPZmYUtTFy-B_UYUmNlRZIYUqDmsw0dHiH2SUzgIQo6Lkri0MDPvRsSIsZfTbZLTj8K=s1600

Rachel is a further example of a Phoenix host previously being experience for her to not go crazy from looking into Thor’s mind.

forget Thor.

she beats Odin without noticing him.

Gallery

sorry, I couldn't resist.

@thor321: stop it man. Jason Aaron's run isn't canon. We haven't had a 616 Thor story in years.

@del_torro: haha true :)

sorry, I just couldn't resist.

@pyrofn: If , you are going to ignore statements stated on panel , ignore all the context and act dumb , then don't @ me again and go waste someone else's time , with your ignorance for statements , context and what actually happened.

@thor321: HAHAHAHA lmao

OT:

No

@the_red_devil: If I’m gonna ignore? Which panel are you talking about?! You merely linked me to the entire comic to look for a panel that was never there to begin with from what I saw. What I did see:

•Jean uses an ability that no one thinks she has used before.

•Jean doesn’t thinks it’s Phoenix or anything bad, but a different level, which could mean a myriad of things for an inexperienced telepath as herself.

•Oracle asks Jean if she knows what she’s doing and if she is in control, with Jean explaining what it is and her blaming them for forcing her to push herself harder than she has ever in her life.

Where in any of these panels does it state that she is more powerful than her adult self? Huh? You’re the one making the claim. It should be you searching for it and bringing me the evidence. Not me looking for a panel that I don’t even believe exists, but having to give you the benefit of the doubt and check out what the heck you're talking about.

Not only that, but I gave you proof of more recent evidence of my point and you simply disregarded me without even looking at the scans. Who is ignoring who here? Because I’m pretty sure that I have been very open about this and trying to see your point of view, only to be ignored on my end without even a second of decency from you to look at why I think the way I do.

Good riddance, is what I say, if you are simply gonna shut me down without taking what I’m saying under consideration while I at least gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you could handle having an appropriate conversation.

@lordofallhumans: @del_torro: @koays: @onispin: @god_spawn: @mooty_pass: @elpendejo: @watcherking: @diarrhearegatta: Am I being unreasonable? Did I miss anything here? Can you guys point out if I’m wrong please? I don’t want to spout out nonsense and if there is any chance that I am not seeing something cause I’m blind as a bat, please tell me.

God, I feel like I’m going mad trying to find something I clearly must be missing.

@pyrofn: I dont understand the argument.... is he saying that Oracle shut down Gladiator? Because Yea she did.....but that's 3 panels after Jeen and Gladiator bull charged at eachother and fell out of the sky. So unless she somehow stopped them in mid air....

While it may prove Jeen didnt defeat Gladiator, the fact that the end result of a clash between them was Gladiator needing help getting up, or that Jeen was repeatedly blasting him back makes them comparable and doesnt in anyway make Gladiator seem like he was more likely to win especially given this is the first time she used the form, and what it would later accomplish.

Teen Jean was NEVER stated to be more powerful then Adult Jean Grey. It's only implied that she was more powerful then classic Marvel Girl and even then that's implied to be do to Classic Marvel Girl holding back.

-------

As far as this thread.

I'm not convinced Jean has the offense to win this in tk. She can definetly defend against him though. Though her being bloodlusted effects how i think she will use it.

As far as TP.... Jean is powerful enough to replicate Xavier's sleep command and has the same if not greater experience then Rachel with the Phoenix that allowed her to dismiss his claims of being a god.

While Thor clearly has resistance, the instance of Emma being effected by him is sort of dismissed by the fact that Rachel and Xavier dismissed his resistance and "god mind" in the same event. The only differences between them being that outside of small Fragments in the Cuckoos and her own 1/5th fragment of the Phoenix Emma has never entered a cosmic mind before.

Whereas aside from Galactus and planetary bodies, Xavier has engaged the Phoenix's conciousness 3times.

And Rachel as stated possessed the full Phoenix for years, and aside from other cosmic entities and alternate realities, resisted the Phoenix's own attempts to suppress her mind and memories.

Emma's closest thing to engaging a cosmic or godly mind is separating Sinister, and Celeste from the Celestials powers and a Phoenix fragments individually. It's not really comparable.

@pyrofn: No you’re in the right. I read the comic. Jean stalemated Gladiator and Oracle was able to mentally control him with telepathy. With the stronger than her adult self thing, think he’s talking about when Oracle said “This Jean is already different... She already has a different relationship to her mind and powerset that”. The only Jean she could be referring to is her marvel girl incarnation. But it doesn’t really matter, it’s been stated many times that Jeen is weaker than Adult Jean.

But anyway, if Oracle can do that to Gladiator, Jean could too. And if Rachel could tank Thor’s hits and if Xavier could mentally sedate Thor, then Jean could too. I don’t see how Jean loses this unless she gets tired.

Ok. Thank god. I hate to run around looking for something and be driven crazy then be called unreasonable when I can't find what they are looking for. It either means I obviously missed something or the other person is wrong. Still, I don't believe Oracle knew of Jean in her Marvel Girl days. She probably means 90's-2000's Jean.

His claim though was this scan of Oracle controlling the battlefield, including Jean and Gladiator. Now, I am fine with that, but he attributes mind control to the reason why Gladiator was still in the process of getting up.

Rocket says exactly that what Oracle was doing was mind-control, aka psychic manipulation. And it is supported by the fact that everyone is still standing and listening her command. We see no one is clutching there heads or showing signs of mental pain when Oracle does this, showing that no one is resisting and the command is meant to be followed peacefully, not antagonistically. If someone were resisting, Oracle would have known about it used more effort to subdue the, which indeed would cause the victim pain. We don't see that from either Jean or Gladiator because they were already down from clashing.

I think he is confusing mind-control for a psychic wave made to cause mental pain. I wouldn't blame him since when things get out of hand, telepaths will resort to this to grab everyone's attention and would serve as a warning that if they step out of line, they will get worse treatment. It still means that the characters can choose not to follow the warning, but the art in books always make clear that when they are causing mental pain, everyone will show signs that they feel it.

Even All-New X-Men is consistent on the difference between mind-control and psychic waves of pain. Look, here is mind-control.

This is mental pain inducement.

Gallery

the first time, Jean knocks gladiator away with her blasts (scans 4-2)

Oracle tries to get into Jeans mind, but Jean blocks her (scan 2)

Oracle pulls Jean into her own mind and switches off her pink mode (scan 1)

Jean breaks free and repowers herself (scan 1)

Gladiator bullrushes Jean, and they collide with each other (scan 1)

In the scan PyroFN posted, you can see them both falling down after the collision, meaning they took each other out. After that Oracle stopped all the other fighters with telepathy.

Oracle never used telepathy to stop Gladiator. It was a collision with Jean that dropped him (noticed how he was bullrushing and building energy, but he collided with a Jean that was standing still and got knock down too, so that's a good durability feat for Jean too).

Also, you're trying to use teen Jean being Stronger than Classic Jean, as a sign that Current Jean grey is weaker than Teen Jean. Let me explain why that doesn't make sense.

1) Current Jean >Teen Jean. A ghost of Adult Jean was enough to take control of Teen Jean. Current Adult Jean has also beaten people (Rachel, Emma) that stomp other people (Xavier jnr) that stomped teen Jean regularly (Xavier jnr)

2) Current Jean IS Teen Jean. They have all the same feats, so it doesn't matter. Adult Jean can do everything that teen Jean does. This has been the situation since Extermination , Adult Jean even ended that event by using psychic skills that she learnt as teen Jean.

3) saying Teen Jean > Classic Jean = Teen Jean >Current Jean, doesn't make sense because Current Jean is tiers above Classic Jean.

Classic Jean-> gets power up and becomes X-Factor Jean -> after operation Zero tolerance, they reveal she has been restricting her powers. She stops holding back and gets stronger -> during revolution, she gets Psylockes Shadow affinity, which makes her astral Form stronger -> New X-Men she gets a connection to the Phoenix but is not actually hosting it until she does in the sun -> Resurrected Jean grey, Nova who fought her twice in new Xmen says that she has grown stronger, Jean also confirms that she is stronger than before - > post Extermination Current Jean gets all feats from teenage Jean become timeline has been repaired.

There's like 5 tiers between Classic Jean and Current Jean . Gladiator tanking a blast from Classic Jean doesn't mean he won't be stomped by Current Jean. Especially when she's dealing with people like Apocalypse casually.

@koays: How the hell did I miss you reply. Ugh. Comicvine was so broken yesterday.

In essence, he is crediting Oracle for the reason Gladiator hadn’t gotten up after they clashed. According to him, her mental command to everyone on the battlefield affected both Jean and Gladiator, which means to him that Jean couldn’t down Gladiator and because apparently in this comic that he linked me to, and because of the fact that am undoubtedly ignoring on panel statements and what actually happened, and adult Jean Grey can’t even touch Thor.

Normally, I’d dismiss him for being unreasonable, but he instead, reversed it on me. My one other secret weakness is self-doubt. Ergo, I went simply mad trying to find something that clearly wasn’t there. That one was my bad. Sorry for calling and thank you for the clarification.

@del_torro: Actually it’s far worse than you think. He isn’t referring to Marvel Girl. He is referring to Jean in Classic X-Men, not Classic Jean Grey (Although he does say Classic Jean Grey, he is referring to when she fought him. Marvel Girl never fought Gladiator), where Jean fought Gladiator as more evidence.

That Jean Grey was Phoenix after she opened a stargate. He is saying that not even Phoenix could down Gladiator with Cyclops help. Or he thought that Phoenix was regular Jean when she fought Gladiator, but I’m doubtful about this second one since he clearly can tell the difference between Phoenix and Dark Phoenix.

Yeah CURRENT Jason Aaron Thor is nerfes to kingdom come a kindergarten masscot probably beats this Thor. Classic Thor not so much

Jean has nothing she can use to beat Thor obviously. This is obviously a mismatch.

@helloman: She has telepathy and is more powerful than Xavier, who dropped him with a thought.

jean she has tossed juggernaut gladiator and Apocalypse around with her tk who are all stronger than thor and got through defences like juggernaut and magneto's who have better tp resistance if jean is determined to win she beats thor .

Bump

Well if Thor isn't jobbing, then he'll blitz and one shot her before she can do anything.

R.I.P Jean.

I can't see Jean putting down Thor. He wins

Jean wins easily, especially since even if she’s physically killed she can come back.

Bump

this is the type of thread that makes comicvine worthwhile to visit

If it's just Jean, she probably gets stomped by Thor. If it's the Phoenix Force merged with Jean on the other hand...

I think if Jean makes use of her pink form, she can make up the difference in speed and strength. Otherwise, Thor has a large edge.

Jean stomps him casually.

BUMP

Thor one-shots.

That was pure PIS. Xavier, Moondragon, and Rachel have affected his mind before.

Teen Jean has tossed Thor from the battlefield; Rachel has blocked his blows. A bloodlusted and current Jean Grey would beat him.

Pink Form can do this

@geekryan: oh I completely agree it’s PIS

She was also not taking the fight seriously. She was trying to read his mind instead of going for a full psychic assault

@geekryan: yes true she didn’t appear to be trying at any point during the fight

No, she can't

Jean stomps

Thor gets wrecked.

Pink form Jean? Or with the Raptor has this