vs.
On a group of Philippine islands.
Blink vs. Invisible Woman
No one? Is it the location? I could change it.
Blink for me. Although it's a toughie.
Invisible Woman. Unless Blink has some kind extrasensory ability, the invisible part of Sue A.K.A. has so many weapons.
PhoenixSouvenir says:
"Invisible Woman. Unless Blink has some kind extrasensory ability, the invisible part of Sue A.K.A. has so many weapons."
Duh! I feal like an idiot now, I totally forgot Invisible Woman could become invisible, she uses her force fields so much more often. I guess that changes my vote but I'm still not fully convinced, now it's Sue 60 percent chance in my book.
I think there are some tricks Blink could use to determine Sue's position.
This is a tough one...
But in a way. I believe the Invisible Woman gets this one for her powers' reflex and her invisibility powers.
I just don't know if Invisible Woman is capable of detecting e.m. field which is actually one of the best way to detect where and when a teleporter will appear.
I wonder how teleportation would work on the force field. Can she teleport herself or things through it? I don't see why she wouldn't be able to. The whole point of teleporting is to move through space without interacting with the things between where you start and where you end up. Some teleporters have problems with this though (however that might be because of their specific way of teleporting as well as the kind of barrier). I don't think Blink would have a problem but I felt like I should pose it as a question anyway. Also, can she teleport the field if a spike hits it? I don't know how this would work. The fields are solid force, so I think it's entirely possible to teleport it the same way she teleports other solids, and in any case, she's teleported energy too. I'm thinking Blink should win the fight. Sue can stay invisible and put up force fields and that would make her hard to hit (I'll come back to that), but Blink can keep teleporting and even teleporting great distances and that would make it just as hard for Sue to hit her in return. Back to Sue's means of defense, staying invisible can be fixed easily by just blinking things where she might be. Sand, water, random objects, etc, these things work in comics to reveal her presence. Also teleporting huge chunks of ground where she could possibly be standing would distract her when she fell into huge holes, and given Blink's ability to teleport things temporarily, if the chunk of land comes back while Sue is still in the hole...well, two objects cannot exist in the same space. As for the force fields, those can be (I'm assuming) teleported away or things can be teleported inside them if Sue's in a sphere or something. That's what I'm thinking for now.
That was a good way for Blink to win....but it could be over in seconds before Blink could even attempt to do all that. If Sue turns invisible she has a good advantage in that she will have to be found, this gives her time [she wont need much] to open up a force feild in Blinks brain/lungs etc. Even if she teleports the land out from under Sue, Sue is more than capable of levitating to stop herself from falling or to get back out of the hole. Another thing, Blink is probably quite reliant on her eyesight...Sue could take her sight away and reduce Blinks accuracy with the stakes to nil.
Post Edited:2008-04-24 07:42:16
Logic Mark III says:
"That was a good way for Blink to win....but it could be over in seconds before Blink could even attempt to do all that. If Sue turns invisible she has a good advantage in that she will have to be found, this gives her time [she wont need much] to open up a force feild in Blinks brain/lungs etc. Even if she teleports the land out from under Sue, Sue is more than capable of levitating to stop herself from falling or to get back out of the hole. Another thing, Blink is probably quite reliant on her eyesight...Sue could take her sight away and reduce Blinks accuracy with the stakes to nil.
Post Edited:2008-04-24 07:42:16"
How will Sue put force fields in Blink if she doesn't know where she is? If she keeps teleporting Sue won't be putting forcefields inside her. She could keep teleporting or just teleport to a distance and direction where Sue can no longer spot her, or into cover so she can't be seen while still remaining close. And Blink could teleport out of the way and then blink one island right on top of the one where Sue is. She doesn't have to know exactly where Sue is for that to work. If the land Blink teleports out from under Sue is only gone for a fraction of a second, I really don't think Sue would be out of the way in time. Putting up shields is instinctive, but not levitating. And again, Sue can't really blind her if she doesn't know where she is.
fesak says:
"I've always wondered how IW could make someone blind by making their eyes invisible.I know she did that in a comic, but why doesn't she become blind herself when she turns invisible?"
Apparently she bends light into her eyes so she can see just as easily as she bends light around her so she's invisible.
I suppose it would depend on who's quicker on the draw, maybe. Could Blink teleport two things at once (ie. teleport herself away while also teleporting the ground underneath Sue?) If not, Sue could use the delay to start levitating and then the ground thing wouldn't work. Also, is there any precedence for Blink teleporting one object into the same space of another object? I know she's teleported stuff inside of people, but has she actually teleported stuff so that the two objects occupied the same space?
On the issue of teleporting the force field away I am a little confused, Sue's force fields are just a form of telekinesis, right? As in they are constructs of Sue's mind. I don't know, but it seems that she wouldn't be able to teleport forcefields anymore than she can teleport a mind (She wouldn't be able to teleport Sue's force fields away anymore than she could teleport a telekinetic's telekinesis away). Even if she did manage to teleport Sue's invisible force field away, wouldn't it just dissipate and Sue would instinctively create another?
I recall in one issue (I have no idea which one) Sue was put in an invisible maze and she used her force field ability to create a force field that molded to fit the lay of the maze so that she could somehow navigate out of the maze. Would Sue be able to maybe do the same thing here? Create a large force field that covered the lay of the land and "feel" where Blink blinked.
I'm so confused
Super-Buster says:
"I suppose it would depend on who's quicker on the draw, maybe. Could Blink teleport two things at once (ie. teleport herself away while also teleporting the ground underneath Sue?) If not, Sue could use the delay to start levitating and then the ground thing wouldn't work. Also, is there any precedence for Blink teleporting one object into the same space of another object? I know she's teleported stuff *inside* of people, but has she actually teleported stuff so that the two objects occupied the same space?"
She could teleport herself and at the same time throw a spike so the two happen almost together, but you're saying Sue would levitate as if she knows she's about to get dropped when she wouldn't. And she's fast enough that she's teleported things into the path of various energy blasts a number of times so I think she could drop Sue before she knew what was up. I don't know if she's specifically teleported one thing to where another is, but can you give me reason why she wouldn't be able to? She can teleport something from one place to another, or just teleport it out of existence (into stasis) and have it return. Even if she couldn't send something to where something else already is with the first kind of blinking, if she does the second, when it comes back and something is where it was, wouldn't it still have to come back? And if she can't do that, she can work around it. She could teleport something like a whole mess of sand or water from the beach and since those things aren't one continuous mass, whatever space is not taken up will be filled when it reaches the area where Sue is.
Super-Buster says:
"On the issue of teleporting the force field away I am a little confused, Sue's force fields are just a form of telekinesis, right? As in they are constructs of Sue's mind. I don't know, but it seems that she wouldn't be able to teleport forcefields anymore than she can teleport a mind (She wouldn't be able to teleport Sue's force fields away anymore than she could teleport a telekinetic's telekinesis away). Even if she did manage to teleport Sue's invisible force field away, wouldn't it just dissipate and Sue would instinctively create another?"
The force fields are solid psionic fields of invisible force. They are solid and can be touched, pushed, punched and broken, so why not teleported? And if she puts up another force field, she might be quick, but I don't know that it would be as fast as the first time. Usually when her connection to her fields is broken (when the constructs are destroyed) it has an affect on her and even stuns her (sometimes hurts her). Even if she weren't stunned, I don't think she'd pop up another force field the instant the first went down.
Super-Buster says:
"I recall in one issue (I have no idea which one) Sue was put in an invisible maze and she used her force field ability to create a force field that molded to fit the lay of the maze so that she could somehow navigate out of the maze. Would Sue be able to maybe do the same thing here? Create a large force field that covered the lay of the land and "feel" where Blink blinked.I'm so confused"
Sure, but if she kept moving it would make it hard. She could also teleport up. Would Sue think go up with her force field right away? I honestly don't think she would. And while she's sending out her force field, Blink could be attacking her.
Buckshot says:
"Sure, but if she kept moving it would make it hard. She could also teleport up. Would Sue think go up with her force field right away? I honestly don't think she would. And while she's sending out her force field, Blink could be attacking her."
I would think Sue would hit on the idea to place a large force field around the area they are in and then simultaneously shrink it while sending invisible shapes ricocheting off the borders to hit Blink wherever she teleported. This would keep Blink busy and allow Sue to slowly drop the trap of the large force field on Blink. If Blink is able to effect this force field with one of her javelins or simply disrupting it by teleporting a part of it, then Sue should have found this out at some point during this whole process and then she could layer the force fields. That would at least get Blink into a small area in which Sue could then place a force field inside Blink to cause enough trauma to knock Blink unconscious.
Of course all of that would hinge on Sue's force fields at least being somewhat resistant to Blink's powers on them and very resistant to her attempting to teleport herself out of the force fields. If there is no resistance to this, then I dont think Sue has much of a chance. Blink could easily follow the evasion tactics you mentioned and control the entire battle from beginning to end.
Post Edited:2008-04-24 15:00:43
You take all the fun away from me. Your second paragraph was basically what I was going to say. I don't think Blink would have a problem teleporting past the force fields (she'd just have to figure out where they are), but it's possible that the force fields themselves couldn't be teleported. That's the part of it that would need more looking at.
Buckshot says:
"She could teleport herself and at the same time throw a spike so the two happen almost together"
No, she would have to throw the spike and then teleport, no matter how fast she does it, they are two actions, she can teleport immediately after she throws the spike, but not during. Also, Sue creating a force field would be faster than throwing something since her fields form at the speed of thought whereas Clarice throwing a spike has to aim and throw at slower than the speed of thought. She would be better off just teleporting in the beginning.
Buckshot says:
", but you're saying Sue would levitate as if she knows she's about to get dropped when she wouldn't. And she's fast enough that she's teleported things into the path of various energy blasts a number of times so I think she could drop Sue before she knew what was up."
Are we assuming that Sue just waits there in her comfy force field? She regularly uses her powers to levitate herself and move around in battles, its just common practice. Why wouldn't she do so here? Blink is fast and agile, but nowhere does it say that Blink has superhuman reflexes, or even better than average reflexes (though it can be assumed), and there is no proof that she can teleport things faster than Sue can create force fields (to levitate or to defend).
Buckshot says:
"I don't know if she's specifically teleported one thing to where another is, but can you give me reason why she wouldn't be able to? She can teleport something from one place to another, or just teleport it out of existence (into stasis) and have it return. Even if she couldn't send something to where something else already is with the first kind of blinking, if she does the second, when it comes back and something is where it was, wouldn't it still have to come back?"
This is just pure speculation that you're using. Maybe teleporting something into something else is simply beyond her abilities, maybe her powers actually adhere to the physics rule that two objects cannot occupy the same space. Maybe once she blinks an object out of existence, she can't teleport it back until the space is cleared again. Bottom line, there is no precedence for this, nothing to base your argument off of. Even if she could do what you're saying, that doesn't mean that she actually would or that she knows that she is able to. Would she just randomly discover this ability in the middle of the battle?
Buckshot says:
"And if she can't do that, she can work around it. She could teleport something like a whole mess of sand or water from the beach and since those things aren't one continuous mass, whatever space is not taken up will be filled when it reaches the area where Sue is."
So her strategy with this would be what? To trap Sue underground? Sue created a column throughout the height of the Baxter building, sand and/or water won't hold her. Also, This is all assuming that Blink can pull this off before Sue just levitates away from her last known position. Even if she discovers Sue's position through this method, it will only be temporary and that doesn't guarantee a win for Blink.
Buckshot says:
"The force fields are solid psionic fields of invisible force. They are solid and can be touched, pushed, punched and broken, so why not teleported?"
This part confuses me so much. Telekinetics don't create anything, when attacks come their way they can repel them using their mind. Sue's "force fields" are simply her mind constantly repelling anything that comes in contact within a certain space. This is shown whenever one of her force fields get hit with a strong attack. It's not the force field that suffers, its her mind (hence nose-bleeds and what-not). The force fields are simply extensions of her mind and they can't be teleported away any more than her mind can.
Buckshot says:
"And if she puts up another force field, she might be quick, but I don't know that it would be as fast as the first time. Usually when her connection to her fields is broken (when the constructs are destroyed) it has an affect on her and even stuns her (sometimes hurts her). Even if she weren't stunned, I don't think she'd pop up another force field the instant the first went down."
Sue never breaks connections with her force fields. Her force fields are extensions of her mind and when an enemy beats on them, they are really beating on her mind until her mind becomes so weak that she simply cannot support the force field anymore and it disappears. Even if Blink could somehow teleport a force field away that just means that Sue can no longer support it with her mind and so it dissipates, which has no effect on her mind. Sue will continue to pop up force fields as instinctively as she always has unless Clarice can find a way to weaken her mind.
Buckshot says:
"Sure, but if she kept moving it would make it hard. She could also teleport up. Would Sue think go up with her force field right away? I honestly don't think she would. And while she's sending out her force field, Blink could be attacking her."
At least Sue would periodically know where Blink is, which is an advantage in this fight. Why wouldn't Sue extend her field up? The only reason she laid on the ground in that issue was because she knew that that was where the maze was. Sue is smart and she knows there are 3 dimensions, not 2, I don't see why she wouldn't also extend it up. And she could do this while maintaining her invisibility, meaning that even if Blink attacked she's not going to hit anything unless she gets lucky.
Forever says:
"It's this topic. It has one interesting point to it but once you get beyond that there isnt much to play with. If something more interesting comes along we could have some fun with it."
Ouch.
Super-Buster says:
"No, she would have to throw the spike and *then* teleport, no matter how fast she does it, they are two actions, she can teleport immediately after she throws the spike, but not during. Also, Sue creating a force field would be faster than throwing something since her fields form at the speed of thought whereas Clarice throwing a spike has to aim and throw at slower than the speed of thought. She would be better off just teleporting in the beginning. "
I know it would be two actions and I know the spike takes time to travel through the air, I wasn’t saying it as if it were the same action (though I’ve seen her teleport things without touching them herself or with spikes so maybe she could cut down on the time between her port and the ground’s), more that he could coordinate it so the action that will send the ground away is already underway before she teleports (which would happen a fraction of a second, if that, after the spike leaves her hand). In any case, the hole thing was just one option.
Super-Buster says:
"This is just pure speculation that you're using. Maybe teleporting something into something else is simply beyond her abilities, maybe her powers actually adhere to the physics rule that two objects cannot occupy the same space. Maybe once she blinks an object out of existence, she can't teleport it back until the space is cleared again. Bottom line, there is no precedence for this, nothing to base your argument off of. Even if she *could* do what you're saying, that doesn't mean that she actually would or that she knows that she is able to. Would she just randomly discover this ability in the middle of the battle? "
It’s not speculation. Blink has the power to teleport one object into the space where another already resides. (She can also teleport things to pieces or just parts of things, something I hadn’t been entirely sure of before even though I’d seen other things that supported it.) She did it under the command of a psychic in Exiles so there is precedence for it. She said she’d never thought about it doing that kind of thing before, but now that she has and knows she can, I think it’s usable.
Super-Buster says:
"So her strategy with this would be what? To trap Sue underground? Sue created a column throughout the height of the Baxter building, sand and/or water won't hold her. Also, This is all assuming that Blink can pull this off before Sue just levitates away from her last known position. Even if she discovers Sue's position through this method, it will only be temporary and that doesn't guarantee a win for Blink."
The spaces that aren’t filled are not only the spaces outside of Sue’s body you know. If she fills the entire area, except for the areas that are already occupied, with sand or water, that would include places like Sue’s lungs, her throat, her organs, her brain and anywhere else. Same way she dealt with Hyperion, Avalanche and Ego.
Super-Buster says:
"This part confuses me so much. Telekinetics don't *create* anything, when attacks come their way they can *repel* them using their mind. Sue's "force fields" are simply her mind constantly repelling anything that comes in contact within a certain space. This is shown whenever one of her force fields get hit with a strong attack. It's not the *force field* that suffers, its her *mind* (hence nose-bleeds and what-not). The force fields are simply extensions of her mind and they can't be teleported away any more than her mind can. "
The idea that it’s telekinesis in the way you’re saying isn’t supported by Marvel. Marvel calls her force fields “solid”, not “continued repulsion” or anything. As for why she gets hurt, that’s explained. She takes these solid fields of force from Hyperspace and is mentally connected to them (which is how she’s able to shape them with her thoughts) so when they’re damaged she feels it through this connection.
Super-Buster says:
"Sue never breaks connections with her force fields. Her force fields are extensions of her mind and when an enemy beats on them, they are really beating on her mind until her mind becomes so weak that she simply cannot support the force field anymore and it disappears. Even if Blink could somehow teleport a force field away that just means that Sue can no longer support it with her mind and so it dissipates, which has no effect on her mind. Sue will continue to pop up force fields as instinctively as she always has unless Clarice can find a way to weaken her mind. "
Her force fields are not extensions of her mind, they are fields of force drawn from Hyperspace psionically and controlled in the same way. They are beating on the force field and there is psychic backlash, but they are not “beating on her mind”. How do you know how she would react to having one forcefully cut off from her? When a force field she’s connected to is broken, it hurts her, so doesn’t it make sense that if the force field were disconnected from her via teleportation without warning it would have a similar affect? But say we follow your theory, then it’s an extension of her mind. I think having one part of your mind disconnected from the rest would have an even greater affect than it simply being battered.
Super-Buster says:
"At least Sue would periodically know where Blink is, which is an advantage in this fight. Why wouldn't Sue extend her field up? The only reason she laid on the ground in that issue was because she knew that that was where the maze was. Sue is smart and she knows there are 3 dimensions, not 2, I don't see why she wouldn't also extend it up. And she could do this while maintaining her invisibility, meaning that even if Blink attacked she's not going to hit anything unless she gets lucky. "
Periodically knowing where she is doesn’t help Sue hit her. If she knows where she is at one moment but by them time she thinks to attack it Blink is no longer there doesn’t help at all. I know Sue is smart and that she knows she can be attacked from multiple directions (the fact that she makes spheres instead of just walls and since she herself can “fly” make that obvious), but I don’t think that’s going to come to her right away. In most of the fights I’ve seen her in, she stays on the ground and fights despite the fact that it would be advantageous for her to take to the air. In the same way, I don’t think she’d be looking out for it right away. Even if she does, if Blink is outside of her range then Sue still won’t reach her. By the time she figures it out to go up, or if she goes up to begin with, Blink really only needs a second or so to put a chunk of the island in approximately the space where she last saw Sue.
fesak says:
"I've always wondered how IW could make someone blind by making their eyes invisible. "
By making a person's retina invisible, IW can make light go through it so that it cannot transmit the light/images it receives from the lens to the optic nerves that make our brains "see".
And I totally vote for Clarice. ^^
Buckshot says:
"I know it would be two actions and I know the spike takes time to travel through the air, I wasn’t saying it as if it were the same action (though I’ve seen her teleport things without touching them herself or with spikes so maybe she could cut down on the time between her port and the ground’s), more that he could coordinate it so the action that will send the ground away is already underway before she teleports (which would happen a fraction of a second, if that, after the spike leaves her hand). In any case, the hole thing was just one option."
The way I see it, Sue can form her force fields at about the same speed blink can teleport, maybe quicker, maybe slower, but I haven't seen some decisive proof either way, they are both psionic actions and I don't see why one would be faster than the other. That said, regardless of coordination, Blink will have to start the teleportation of the ground before she started the teleportation of herself, and if Sue started making a force field inside Blink as Blink started teleporting the ground (even if she doesn't have to throw a spike), then Sue's action would cause Clarice's defeat while Clarice's action would simply cause Sue to fall down. Blink only has time for one action as Sue's field forms, she can't teleport the ground and herself at the same time, so she would be better off teleporting herself.
Buckshot says:
"It’s not speculation. Blink has the power to teleport one object into the space where another already resides. (She can also teleport things to pieces or just parts of things, something I hadn’t been entirely sure of before even though I’d seen other things that supported it.) She did it under the command of a psychic in Exiles so there is precedence for it. She said she’d never thought about it doing that kind of thing before, but now that she has and knows she can, I think it’s usable."
You asked if there was a reason if she couldn't and I gave you one, but this changes things. I was not aware that she did this under command of an exile. I have a question, was the psychic controlling her body or was she just telling Blink to do it? Emma Frost took control of Iceman's body and performed feats that he couldn't replicate for a while, this could be the same case. Has she ever used this ability by herself? She says "she knows she can" but does that mean with practice or can she do it now? Why would she use this ability now when she has not been shown to before? Regardless, Blink would still have to catch Sue with this teleportation in order for it to be successful, not to mention her willingness to do so.
Buckshot says:
"The spaces that aren’t filled are not only the spaces outside of Sue’s body you know. If she fills the entire area, except for the areas that are already occupied, with sand or water, that would include places like Sue’s lungs, her throat, her organs, her brain and anywhere else. Same way she dealt with Hyperion, Avalanche and Ego."
Oh, now I see the strategy, this is a tricky one, I admit. Sue could probably temporarily fill up her empty spots with a force field to keep the sand and stuff out or else catch herself before she falls too far into the hole. She may not expect her ground to disappear, but that doesn't mean she would fall up to her lungs/brains/etc before she caught herself or she could simply use her force fields to propel herself away from where she was at the speed of thought (all of which could be performed while she was invisible so Blink wouldn't know where to teleport the sand.) Besides, these people that she used this ability on are all evil and most of them are very powerful, she won't just use this at the beginning, if at all.
Buckshot says:
"The idea that it’s telekinesis in the way you’re saying isn’t supported by Marvel. Marvel calls her force fields “solid”, not “continued repulsion” or anything. As for why she gets hurt, that’s explained. She takes these solid fields of force from Hyperspace and is mentally connected to them (which is how she’s able to shape them with her thoughts) so when they’re damaged she feels it through this connection."
You're right, I read Marvel's file on her and it didn't say anything about "continued repulsion" or anything, but it also didn't say that they were solid. Even if they did and I missed it, "solid" is used to describe her fields in place of a better noun. She projects/generates psionic force fields (Reed made a speculation once upon a time that they came from hyperspace, but this isn't proven or anything.) which she can manipulate into shapes that behave like solid objects. I also don't know where you're getting the "connection" thing, what are you using? The closest thing I've seen to what you're describing is "psionic backlash". Her ability to withstand impacts depends on her concentration. Anyways, no matter which source I use, the term "psionic force fields" is used to describe her power. Nowhere in that term is "matter" or "energy" referenced. Psionic has to do with abilities of the mind like TP and TK and it is derived from the words psi (derived from "psyche" and the greek concept of "self") and electronics (derived from "machine" and Latin "machina"). Force, though related to energy and mass is not either, it is a push or a pull on an object. Field means that the presence of the force is distributed through-out a volume. This means essentially that a force from Sue's mind is acting on all points within a space, no energy, no mass, nothing to teleport.
Buckshot says:
"Her force fields are not extensions of her mind, they are fields of force drawn from Hyperspace psionically and controlled in the same way. They are beating on the force field and there is psychic backlash, but they are not “beating on her mind”"
Reed speculated once that Sue somehow draws from hyperspace when she uses her powers. That's not to say that she actually grabs her constructs from hyperspace and pulls them into her dimension. Maybe she draws power or force from hyperspace to fuel her powers. She gets psychic backlash because she strains to maintain her force fields when other strong forces act upon them.
Buckshot says:
"How do you know how she would react to having one forcefully cut off from her? When a force field she’s connected to is broken, it hurts her, so doesn’t it make sense that if the force field were disconnected from her via teleportation without warning it would have a similar affect? But say we follow your theory, then it’s an extension of her mind. I think having one part of your mind disconnected from the rest would have an even greater affect than it simply being battered."
Why would teleportation of her force fields hurt Sue? Even if she could teleport them, all that would accomplish is moving them outside of Sue's range of concentration and the force field would simply dissipate. The only way to have a force field forcefully cut off from her is to psychically cut it off, if it is teleported away then her link to them is simply no longer effective. Beating on her force field hurts her mind, but how does that mean that teleporting it will? If the force fields are extensions of her mind then they can't be teleported so it doesn't matter what would happen.
Buckshot says:
"Periodically knowing where she is doesn’t help Sue hit her. If she knows where she is at one moment but by them time she thinks to attack it Blink is no longer there doesn’t help at all."
So is Blink going to be continually teleporting? How will she get her attacks off? Wouldn't she eventually get tired? Blink cannot teleport before Susan thinks, since she has to think too in order to teleport and there is nothing saying that Blink thinks faster than any normal human. Besides, it's better than never knowing where her opponent is (Blink won't ever know, she was to guess where she teleports her sand and what-not).
Buckshot says:
" I know Sue is smart and that she knows she can be attacked from multiple directions (the fact that she makes spheres instead of just walls and since she herself can “fly” make that obvious), but I don’t think that’s going to come to her right away. In most of the fights I’ve seen her in, she stays on the ground and fights despite the fact that it would be advantageous for her to take to the air. In the same way, I don’t think she’d be looking out for it right away. Even if she does, if Blink is outside of her range then Sue still won’t reach her. By the time she figures it out to go up, or if she goes up to begin with, Blink really only needs a second or so to put a chunk of the island in approximately the space where she last saw Sue."
You have Blink teleporting stuff into the same space Sue is occupying (something she's only done once when she was being demanded by a psychic) and teleporting sand inside of Sue (something she's only done a total of three times) yet you draw the line at Sue leaving the ground and looking for attacks? If Blink teleports out of the range of Sue's force field then this fight will never end because neither of them will ever be able to discover where the other is. Blink could teleport a section of the island where Sue was, sure, doesn't matter if Sue is no longer there. You seem to have Sue waiting in the same spot through-out the fight, that just doesn't make sense.
You might have to wait a while for my next post, I'm getting sleepy.
Super-Buster says:
”You asked if there was a reason if she couldn't and I gave you one, but this changes things. I was not aware that she did this under command of an exile. I have a question, was the psychic controlling her body or was she just telling Blink to do it? Emma Frost took control of Iceman's body and performed feats that he couldn't replicate for a while, this could be the same case. Has she ever used this ability by herself? She says "she knows she can" but does that mean with practice or can she do it now? Why would she use this ability now when she has not been shown to before? Regardless, Blink would still have to catch Sue with this teleportation in order for it to be successful, not to mention her willingness to do so. “
The psychic was forcing her to do things against her will, but wasn’t in her body or anything, he gave commands and she followed them. The other thing she was forced to do then was teleporting people apart, something she’s done a couple times since. Don’t see why teleporting people together would be different. She’s done it before, she has the capability to do it and now she knows she can. She also has the willingness to do it since she’s been shown to kill people before, though that’s not her standard approach (but then again, Sue’s standard approach doesn’t even come close to killing unless family is involved, so in that respect Blink would kill Sue long before Sue killed her). I don’t see why catching Sue would be a big deal. As I’ve been saying, teleporting a large enough chunk of the island will be sure to catch her if she’s anywhere near where she starts, and if not, Blink will just have to find her.
Super-Buster says:
”Oh, now I see the strategy, this is a tricky one, I admit. Sue could probably temporarily fill up her empty spots with a force field to keep the sand and stuff out or else catch herself before she falls too far into the hole. She may not expect her ground to disappear, but that doesn't mean she would fall up to her lungs/brains/etc before she caught herself or she could simply use her force fields to propel herself away from where she was at the speed of thought (all of which could be performed while she was invisible so Blink wouldn't know where to teleport the sand.) “
What makes you think that Sue would come up with this strategy? Filling every empty spot in her body with a force field? Does that even sound like something she might think to do, especially when she doesn’t know what attack might be coming at her? Not to mention that it would be incredibly dangerous. Just putting small force fields in Wolverine’s lungs dropped him, what would filling every empty space inside her do? And what does this have to do with the ground? This was a separate method, Blink moving a mass of sand or water directly to where Sue is. She could teleport herself into the sand or water and then teleport it, making it an even faster attack since in the same instant she’s safe, the area around her is put into the place where Sue is.
What Blink needs to do in this fight is very simple. Teleport somewhere out of sight (or just keep teleporting) and then teleport something large to where Sue is. Either that or just flood the area with teleportation spikes and have them all sending their targets to the moon. Sue has a little more work. Locking onto Blink (for all the attempts at putting force fields inside her, which wouldn’t hurt her anyway as long as she doesn’t stop and let Sue do something with whatever’s inside her) while also getting out of the area or making sure nothing just spontaneously materializes in or around her (How could she defend against that? Would she even know it’s a possibility?).
Super-Buster says:
”Besides, these people that she used this ability on are all evil and most of them are very powerful, she won't just use this at the beginning, if at all. “
Yet you have Sue putting force fields in her like it’s second nature when it’s something she actually only does rarely from what I’ve seen and even then it’s never more than a threat (she’s said as much) unless of course she knows the person can take it as was the case with Wolverine. Besides that though, Sue is a very powerful enemy, so why wouldn’t she treat her like she’s treated powerful enemies before?
Super-Buster says:
”Force fields.“
Went through my comics because I remembered that the Exiles faced a Sue Storm (“Overlord of Creation”) that ran Hydra in another dimension and I figured that would answer some questions. Blink runs into her once in issue 91 and tries to teleport Spider-Man with a spike as she passes out, but Sue had a force field up around him. The spike hits it and explodes but it stays up (I think) so I guess that covers that. Blink will not be teleporting force fields away. I do disagree with some of your points in regards to the force field in relation to what’s written in the 2005 Fantastic Four Marvel Handbook, but the differences don’t change anything so I’ll leave them.
Super-Buster says:
”So is Blink going to be continually teleporting? How will she get her attacks off? Wouldn't she eventually get tired? Blink cannot teleport before Susan thinks, since she has to think too in order to teleport and there is nothing saying that Blink thinks faster than any normal human. Besides, it's better than never knowing where her opponent is (Blink won't ever know, she was to guess where she teleports her sand and what-not). “
Blink has fought fights (with evil versions of herself and others) while teleporting the whole time. Can’t tell you how long the fights lasted, but she wasn’t tired even though she was teleporting and also exerting herself physically. Just because some teleporters get tired doesn’t mean she will. She’s even gone to the moon and space (and back) on different occasions and not shown any sign of exhaustion. I don’t think tiring out will be a problem. As for aim, in almost every fight she’s in she’s either throwing spikes while doing incredibly acrobatic flips and jumps or while teleporting. I think she’s had enough practice to know how to aim and move at the same time. Besides, aiming really isn’t necessary if she blinks something big enough. I personally think Blink would be a bit faster because she’s been a physical fighter for years and the kind of fighting she does hones her mind to think quickly and her body to react faster. (While Sue has had some training and is somewhat skilled, Blink has lived in battle for most of her life from her time in AoA, on her own, and with the Exiles. She’s also been trained extensively by Sabretooth and has shown that she’s fast enough to easily maneuver through barrages of weapons fire as well as out-react her teacher, trained ninjas, Longshot, Psylocke and many others.) But even if they’re the same speed though, that doesn’t give an advantage to Sue. If the both do something at the same time, whatever Sue does won’t bother Blink because she won’t be there anymore. And is Sue going to attack first or turn invisible first?
Super-Buster says:
”You have Blink teleporting stuff into the same space Sue is occupying (something she's only done once when she was being demanded by a psychic) and teleporting sand inside of Sue (something she's only done a total of three times) yet you draw the line at Sue leaving the ground and looking for attacks? If Blink teleports out of the range of Sue's force field then this fight will never end because neither of them will ever be able to discover where the other is. Blink could teleport a section of the island where Sue was, sure, doesn't matter if Sue is no longer there. You seem to have Sue waiting in the same spot through-out the fight, that just doesn't make sense. “
I see the difference here as more of a thought process thing. It would occur to Blink to use her powers that way (my belief is that the only reason she’s only done it handful of times in comics is because having her kill people regularly and in such disturbing ways would make her too “mature” and probably ruin who she is for a lot of her fans, it’s not that she doesn’t think to do it, just that Marvel doesn’t want her too unless it’s a big thing like with Ego and Hyperion or if it’s really minor and not actually intended to be fatal, like with Avalanche), but I don’t think it would occur to Sue right away to react like that. Like the scenario you gave before about how she would respond to having things teleported into her. I think it would be an obvious tactic for Blink to teleport something into the place where Sue is, but I very much doubt that Sue filling herself with force fields would be something she’d consider; especially considering that she’s not psychic and doesn’t know that kind of attack is coming. Similarly, I don’t think Sue would immediately include the area above her in her search.
This really doesn’t matter though since I don’t think the fight would go on long enough for Sue to be searching for her. I think Blink teleporting into the water or sand and then sending all of that into the area where Sue was will be enough. And I’m not thinking that Sue will be stationary, (though often times that’s how she fights, from more or less one spot with her force fields doing the work), just that she won’t go too far in the maybe two seconds before a huge area (Blink has easily teleported a space ship before as well as a piece of a building roughly the size of Galactus’ head, so I think she can move a large amount of mass) around where she started is packed with something else.
I dont get why the thinking is that Sue actually needs time to explode Blink from the inside? I have never seen her need to actually do any kind of advanced thinking to do anything to anyones insides. The Wolverine instance that has been brought up shows that very well: she had him with no effort at all, if Hydra hadnt teleported him he would have been done. I dont see why Sue couldnt end this in seconds if she reacts fast enough, just put the feild in the brain/lungs then expand. She has shown this kind of 'twitch' reaction before [Infinity war Issues 2/3 with the Gamma bomb]. It wouldnt even take something as drastic as an internal attack a simple invisible punch or crush grip would do it, Blink couldnt see it coming, it would be quite instantaneous and i dont beleive Blink to be much more durable than a normal person so it would be very easy for Sue to break her bones and penetrate flesh. Again how will Blink know what she can teleport and where to teleport it if she is blind, even temporarily? Heck being suddenly blinded could cause her to make some kind of rash panic teleport into danger herself. Also Sue seems perfectly capable of being invisible and moving around/flying...this gives her a great advantage: why would she stand around VISIBLE and let the girl that can attack from anywhere with anything attack her?
@Logic:
Sue needs to think of something for it to happen with her force-fields, so she cannot make anything explode instantly. Even if she acts at the speed of thought, Clarice can do the same and teleport away at the speed of thought, making Sue's attack useless.
Also, Sue cannot blind Blink if she does not know where she is, unless she makes everything in the area invisible until she reaches Clarice and light cannot reach Blink's eyes anymore, but that would be a waste of power because such an attack has a very low chance of success. Plus, Blink could be as far away as the moon if she wants so Sue certainly couldn't reach her there.
Lastly, it's true that the Invisible Woman can turn invisible and float around on a force construct, but Blink can still shoot blinking spikes all over the area until one of them hits Sue or even fill the entire area with sand, as Buckshot suggested.
Checks "Go three straight posts with Buckshot without him making me feel like a complete idiot" off of comicvine bucket list
Buckshot says:
"The psychic was forcing her to do things against her will, but wasn’t in her body or anything, he gave commands and she followed them. The other thing she was forced to do then was teleporting people apart, something she’s done a couple times since. Don’t see why teleporting people together would be different. She’s done it before, she has the capability to do it and now she knows she can. She also has the willingness to do it since she’s been shown to kill people before, though that’s not her standard approach (but then again, Sue’s standard approach doesn’t even come close to killing unless family is involved, so in that respect Blink would kill Sue long before Sue killed her)."
Alright, if the psychic was simply telling her to do it then I don't see why Blink wouldn't have the ability. You still have Blink performing an ability that she has never done without outside influence, not only that, you have her whipping it out at the beginning of the fight as if it's an established part of her repertoire. Maybe she has the concept of it but needs practice to perform it right, maybe its unreliable, maybe she forgot (How long ago was the comic anyways?), maybe she just refuses to use it because she believes it inhumane. In any case, why would she use it at the beginning of a fight against an opponent like Sue? It doesn't matter how long Blink tries to kill Sue before Sue tries to kill her because she will have no clue where to teleport the sand.
Buckshot says:
" I don’t see why catching Sue would be a big deal. As I’ve been saying, teleporting a large enough chunk of the island will be sure to catch her if she’s anywhere near where she starts, and if not, Blink will just have to find her."
And what I've been saying is why would Sue be anywhere near where she starts? Why can't Sue move? She can move as fast as her mind can carry her (presumably the speed of thought), what guarantee does Blink have that her teleportations will land anywhere near Sue? How will Blink "find" her? Sue would be invisible and as far as I know, Blink has no extra-sensory abilities, would she just randomly attack everywhere hoping she might get lucky? I've already outlined a way for Sue to detect Blink (which I will defend later in this post), yet the best you seem to be able to come up with is Blink guessing where Sue is and attacking, or simply throwing a bunch of spikes and hoping one of them hit Sue, those aren't very good detection strategies at all.
Buckshot says:
"And what does this have to do with the ground? This was a separate method, Blink moving a mass of sand or water directly to where Sue is."
My apologies, I thought we were talking about the same strategy you outlined at the beginning, apparently that is not the case.
Buckshot says:
"What makes you think that Sue would come up with this strategy? Filling every empty spot in her body with a force field? Does that even sound like something she might think to do, especially when she doesn’t know what attack might be coming at her? Not to mention that it would be incredibly dangerous. Just putting small force fields in Wolverine’s lungs dropped him, what would filling every empty space inside her do? "
I thought we were arguing about the strategy where Blink teleports the ground and then teleports it back as Sue falls in, in which case Sue would be able to predict Blink's next move. Since this is not the case I will argue that both of these fighters have instant-kill moves. Sue can destroy Blink's brain with a force field just as easily as Blink can teleport anything inside Sue.
Buckshot says:
"She could teleport herself into the sand or water and then teleport it, making it an even faster attack since in the same instant she’s safe, the area around her is put into the place where Sue is."
You say this as if Blink gets a free move. Sure this would work if Sue just stood there. What if while Blink was teleporting into the sand/water Sue turned invisible and moved? Also, where on earth did you pull this out of? Does Blink start off the fight already knowing what she's going to do? What makes you think she would think of this?
Buckshot says:
"What Blink needs to do in this fight is very simple. Teleport somewhere out of sight (or just keep teleporting) and then teleport something large to where Sue is. Either that or just flood the area with teleportation spikes and have them all sending their targets to the moon."
You really think its that simple? You say that she could teleport something large to where Sue is as if Clarice knows where Sue is. Flooding the area with teleportation spikes? This fight is out in the open, why is Sue confined to one area? What guarantee does Blink have that any of her spikes would hit Sue? We see later in your post that Sue can successfully defend against Blink's spikes with her force field, so even if Blink did get lucky it wouldn't really do anything as long as Sue is defending herself.
Buckshot says:
"Sue has a little more work. Locking onto Blink (for all the attempts at putting force fields inside her, which wouldn’t hurt her anyway as long as she doesn’t stop and let Sue do something with whatever’s inside her) while also getting out of the area or making sure nothing just spontaneously materializes in or around her (How could she defend against that? Would she even know it’s a possibility?)."
You think teleporting sand inside Sue would kill her, why wouldn't putting a force field inside Blink kill her? All she has to do is make a force field inside Blink's brain killing her instantly or if she didn't want to kill she could simply knock her out with an invisible force field shaped like a brick, its invisible so Blink wouldn't even see it coming and wouldn't know to get out of the way. Once Sue is away from where she starts she can pretty much rely on her invisibility to keep her out of harm's way, meanwhile it is Blink who will have to keep teleporting or else risk an invisible aneurism or having an invisible brick slam into her. Sue can keep Blink off guard, she pretty much fights at the speed of thought and any time Blink stops teleporting is a chance for Sue to end the fight. It doesn't even have to be very long, if Blink even risks an attack before she teleports, she also risks her defeat. As long as Susan escapes Blink's first attempt to teleport something inside her (which is very likely) then she knows its a possibility and she can defend against it by simply being invisible and moving, what if she moves back to where Blink originally teleported her sand? Would she think to teleport it there again? Sue has 3 dimensions and an open area, chances of Blink being successful with this strategy are very slim indeed.
Buckshot says:
"Yet you have Sue putting force fields in her like it’s second nature when it’s something she actually only does rarely from what I’ve seen and even then it’s never more than a threat (she’s said as much) unless of course she knows the person can take it as was the case with Wolverine. Besides that though, Sue is a very powerful enemy, so why wouldn’t she treat her like she’s treated powerful enemies before?"
I have Sue putting force fields in Blink in response to you having Blink putting sand in Sue. Sue can win without this ability but you seem determined that Blink will use abilities that she has used less times than I can count on one hand. As long as you maintain that Blink will teleport stuff inside Sue, I maintain that Sue will create force fields inside Blink (something she has done more often).
Buckshot says:
"Blink has fought fights (with evil versions of herself and others) while teleporting the whole time. Can’t tell you how long the fights lasted, but she wasn’t tired even though she was teleporting and also exerting herself physically. Just because some teleporters get tired doesn’t mean she will. She’s even gone to the moon and space (and back) on different occasions and not shown any sign of exhaustion. I don’t think tiring out will be a problem."
So you're saying that Blink will never get tired? I know she can teleport easily and she doesn't get tired particularly easily, but if Blink is continually teleporting, wouldn't she eventually get tired? That was my argument anyways, you had Blink teleporting so rapidly that Sue wouldn't have a chance to get a hit in, and I said (or meant) that the only way for Blink to teleport too fast for Sue to get a hit in was if Blink did nothing but teleport since Sue can attack at about the same speed Blink can teleport. So as long as this is true and Blink is doing nothing but teleporting, then she will eventually get tired.
Buckshot says:
" As for aim, in almost every fight she’s in she’s either throwing spikes while doing incredibly acrobatic flips and jumps or while teleporting. I think she’s had enough practice to know how to aim and move at the same time. Besides, aiming really isn’t necessary if she blinks something big enough."
I don't recall mentioning aim. The closest thing I can think of is asking how Blink would get her attacks off. I think you may have missed my point. I was trying to say essentially that Blink attacking and teleporting away are two different actions (no matter how well they are coordinated) whereas Sue attacking is one action. If Blink wants to attack she has to delay her next teleportation until she can get her attack off and that will give Sue a chance to end the fight since her defense (invisibility) is passive and she doesn't have to think about it. The longer Blink goes without teleporting (whether its aiming and/or attacking or performing incredible acrobatic flips) the more opportunity she gives Sue to end the fight.
Buckshot says:
" I personally think Blink would be a bit faster because she’s been a physical fighter for years and the kind of fighting she does hones her mind to think quickly and her body to react faster. (While Sue has had some training and is somewhat skilled, Blink has lived in battle for most of her life from her time in AoA, on her own, and with the Exiles. She’s also been trained extensively by Sabretooth and has shown that she’s fast enough to easily maneuver through barrages of weapons fire as well as out-react her teacher, trained ninjas, Longshot, Psylocke and many others.)"
How does being a physical fighter have any bearing on how fast Blink can get off attacks? Blink has honed her mind through years of fighting, but so has Sue. Blink has been flipping, throwing, and teleporting for years, Sue has been forming force fields for decades and has been turning invisible for even longer. Why would Clarice be able to teleport any faster than Sue can form a force field? They have both been fighting for a long time, a different kind of fighting yes, but fighting nonetheless, Sue has been shown to instinctively create force fields which she couldn't do before, meaning that she has gotten faster, has Clarice showed anything similar?
Buckshot says:
"But even if they’re the same speed though, that doesn’t give an advantage to Sue. If the both do something at the same time, whatever Sue does won’t bother Blink because she won’t be there anymore. And is Sue going to attack first or turn invisible first?"
Yes, if Sue starts creating a force field in Blink as Blink starts teleporting then it won't work because Blink will be gone, but that's not what I'm saying. Blink has to do other things besides teleport herself to win this fight and while Blink is busy teleporting a piece of an island someplace hoping to hit Sue, or throwing spikes which are not guaranteed to land anywhere near Sue, or performing amazing acrobatic feats (ie: not teleporting herself) she gives Sue a chance to form one of her bubbles at the speed of thought and end the fight.
I suppose Sue would attack first. If Blink attacked too then it would be a stalemate since they would both take each other out, if Blink teleports, then that gives Sue a chance to turn invisible.
Buckshot says:
"I see the difference here as more of a thought process thing. It would occur to Blink to use her powers that way (my belief is that the only reason she’s only done it handful of times in comics is because having her kill people regularly and in such disturbing ways would make her too “mature” and probably ruin who she is for a lot of her fans, it’s not that she doesn’t think to do it, just that Marvel doesn’t want her too unless it’s a big thing like with Ego and Hyperion or if it’s really minor and not actually intended to be fatal, like with Avalanche), but I don’t think it would occur to Sue right away to react like that."
So you're blaming the writers on why Blink doesn't normally do things you think she would in this battle? I can do that to: My belief is that the only reason Sue doesn't normally form force fields inside of people, levitate, and over-all use her powers to their full extent is because it would make her too mean and too overpowering of the other members of her team. They are supposed to be the Fantastic Four, but if Sue actually used her powers in ways that make more sense, she could handle most of the challenges the FF comes across by herself, and who wants to buy that comic? Again, you have Blink performing these blitzes at the beginning, using her powers to their fullest and using techniques she has only used a handful of times, so why not Sue?
Buckshot says:
"Like the scenario you gave before about how she would respond to having things teleported into her. I think it would be an obvious tactic for Blink to teleport something into the place where Sue is, but I very much doubt that Sue filling herself with force fields would be something she’d consider; especially considering that she’s not psychic and doesn’t know that kind of attack is coming. Similarly, I don’t think Sue would immediately include the area above her in her search."
I think it would be an obvious tactic to form a force bubble inside Blink or, I don't know, move, so why won't you give Sue these abilities? Blink and Invisible Woman both have abilities that would let them fight a lot better than they normally do in comics, why would you give these abilities to Blink, but deny them to Sue? How is that fair?
I already said that I thought I was arguing a different argument with Sue filling herself with force fields so I won't discuss that.
Why wouldn't Sue extend her force field up? As you said, she creates domes, not walls, she knows that attacks come in three dimensions, not two, and she knows that Blink is just as capable of teleporting up as she is as teleporting along the ground, especially if she sees Blink jumping and flipping like she normally does. Its true when I search a room for something I don't usually look up first, but Sue has the luxury of looking everywhere at once, why wouldn't she use it?
Buckshot says:
"This really doesn’t matter though since I don’t think the fight would go on long enough for Sue to be searching for her. I think Blink teleporting into the water or sand and then sending all of that into the area where Sue was will be enough. "
I respect your thoughts, but they don't make things true, you haven't proven to me that this fight will be ended in the first few seconds. We are still debating that.
Buckshot says:
"And I’m not thinking that Sue will be stationary, (though often times that’s how she fights, from more or less one spot with her force fields doing the work), just that she won’t go too far in the maybe two seconds before a huge area (Blink has easily teleported a space ship before as well as a piece of a building roughly the size of Galactus’ head, so I think she can move a large amount of mass) around where she started is packed with something else."
Why isn't this with the rest of first-seconds arguments? Anyways, I guess this comes down to opinions then, because I think that Sue can move that fast using her force fields. She creates an manipulates force fields at the speed of thought, so wouldn't her movement only be limited by how fast she can think? Two seconds and she could be on another island.
I often wonder why I am not so willing to put this kind of work into my school assignments.
Super-Buster says:
” Alright, if the psychic was simply telling her to do it then I don't see why Blink wouldn't have the ability. You still have Blink performing an ability that she has never done without outside influence, not only that, you have her whipping it out at the beginning of the fight as if it's an established part of her repertoire. Maybe she has the concept of it but needs practice to perform it right, maybe its unreliable, maybe she forgot (How long ago was the comic anyways?), maybe she just refuses to use it because she believes it inhumane. In any case, why would she use it at the beginning of a fight against an opponent like Sue? It doesn't matter how long Blink tries to kill Sue before Sue tries to kill her because she will have no clue where to teleport the sand. “
Half the time you’re saying it’s out of character for Blink to attack the way I’ve described, but then you support Sue by saying she’ll put force fields in Blink (which is rare to begin with but more importantly is also completely out of character for her to actually use in a way that would kill someone or even harm them for that matter), saying she’ll be flying all over the place which is also out of character for her in a fight, that she’ll find Blink in a way she did once (when? How many times since?), that she’ll be using force fields while invisible (how often does she do that?), that she’ll fill herself with force fields, and that she’ll rocket around at the speed of thought (something I’ve actually never seen).
Blink teleporting around is how she fights. The only way I’m departing from her character is by having her start with attacks that would be fatal, but that’s not really a stretch since she’s shown she will kill if she knows she has too, she has faced Sue before (alternate dimension) and knows how dangerous she can be and therefore knows not to fool around, and also possible tactics that Sue might use would make it a good idea for her to attack before things go too far, she has used other dangerous moves on powerful opponents and since she knows Sue is powerful, won’t hesitate to do so again. The only difference is which instantly fatal move she decides to use, and of the ones she has, this one works best. Her knowledge of Sue gives her reason to attack more forcefully than usual. What reason does Sue have to start the fight with the intent to kill? Blink’s not fighting this way just because she can, but because she knows Sue is powerful and dangerous, and knowing that mean she has to step up her game and treat her like she’s powerful and dangerous. And even if she didn’t know the full extent of what Sue can do and how dangerous she is, she’s still more likely to kill than Sue is.
You’re saying that she won’t teleport something to where Sue is because she needs practice, but why would she need practice? The psychic made her do another move (teleporting people to pieces) and she repeated it on a few occasions later without practice. She’s never been shown to practice any of her teleportation moves as far as I know, so why would that one be special? (How about we say Blink just teleports her head off from where they start? She’s teleported things remotely a few times so that’s more often than the merging attack and she’s also done it unaided every time.) You have a better point in saying she might not do it because it’s inhumane, but as I’ve said she’s killed people before and even attempted more gruesome things (being teleported to space is not a painless death, having something lodged in your brain is probably not a gentle thing, being teleported into pieces is cruel).
Super-Buster says:
” And what I've been saying is why would Sue be anywhere near where she starts? Why can't Sue move? She can move as fast as her mind can carry her (presumably the speed of thought), what guarantee does Blink have that her teleportations will land anywhere near Sue? “
I’m not saying Sue is incapable of movement, just that she usually doesn’t and even when she does it’s not that fast (nowhere near thought speed). Add in her defensive measures (invisibility and force fields) and I don’t think she’ll get far in a couple seconds. I doubt she would think to turn invisible, put up force fields, and completely get out of the area all in the few seconds before tons of earth or sea water fill the area where she is, and even if she thinks of it, how many actions is that she needs to coordinate on top of the attack that she was doing at the very start?
Super-Buster says:
” How will Blink "find" her? Sue would be invisible and as far as I know, Blink has no extra-sensory abilities, would she just randomly attack everywhere hoping she might get lucky? I've already outlined a way for Sue to detect Blink (which I will defend later in this post), yet the best you seem to be able to come up with is Blink guessing where Sue is and attacking, or simply throwing a bunch of spikes and hoping one of them hit Sue, those aren't very good detection strategies at all. “
Finding Sue would be hard, I admit, but finding Blink if she decides to teleport anywhere else on the planet would be just as, if not more difficult. The method you have for Sue has a limit of just a few miles (the limit of her domes) and the dome would have to be hollow to get that far, meaning Blink could come teleport inside it (out of site) and Sue wouldn’t know it. I like the idea of Blink grabbing some heat vision goggles from somewhere and coming back to the battle without Sue even realizing that she left.
Super-Buster says:
” My apologies, I thought we were talking about the same strategy you outlined at the beginning, apparently that is not the case. “
I’ve been discussing three different ways Blink can attack.
Super-Buster says:
” I thought we were arguing about the strategy where Blink teleports the ground and then teleports it back as Sue falls in, in which case Sue would be able to predict Blink's next move. “
Why would Sue just know what would happen? She’s falling and now worried about protecting herself and not about attacking Blink. What if she thinks that was the whole purpose of the attack? Why would she assume that the ground would rematerialize? What if she’s thinking the same way you did and believes the ground can’t materialize while she’s there? What if she doesn’t even consider that it’s an option that it could and that maybe once it’s gone, it’s gone?
Super-Buster says:
” Since this is not the case I will argue that both of these fighters have instant-kill moves. Sue can destroy Blink's brain with a force field just as easily as Blink can teleport anything inside Sue. “
Except that Sue would never use hers while Blink would and has.
Super-Buster says:
” You say this as if Blink gets a free move. Sure this would work if Sue just stood there. What if while Blink was teleporting into the sand/water Sue turned invisible and moved? “
Free move? I’m not thinking Blink gets a free move, just that this wouldn’t take more than a couple seconds.
Super-Buster says:
” Also, where on earth did you pull this out of? Does Blink start off the fight already knowing what she's going to do? What makes you think she would think of this? “
But Sue will know that she needs to keep moving (something she rarely does), that she needs to put a force field in her enemy right away (something she rarely does), that she needs to fill herself with force fields (if you can honestly put that forward as something she would think of, I don’t see why it would be strange for Blink to teleport water or sand), that she needs to turn invisible and at the same time do all that you’ve outlined. Not only would she think of all this so she can do any of it at the start of the fight, but she would actually do it when much of it is out of character for her? You’re saying that what I’m suggesting for Blink is out of character, but given her enemy, it really isn’t, and more of what you’re suggesting for Sue is. Sue can have this whole plan in mind but Blink can’t think to teleport away and then teleport something at Sue? What is so elaborate about what I’m saying Blink should do? Teleporting to another position is completely natural for her, and so is teleporting other things. Putting them both together is not a stretch.
Super-Buster says:
” You really think its that simple? You say that she could teleport something large to where Sue is as if Clarice knows where Sue is. “
If Sue is anywhere in the area (depends on how large the object or how much sand or water that is blinked) of where she starts, then Blink doesn’t need to know where she is.
Super-Buster says:
” You think teleporting sand inside Sue would kill her, why wouldn't putting a force field inside Blink kill her? “
Because, as far as I know, when Sue put a force field inside someone, it’s not locked inside their body. It’s in an area of space that happens to be in someone’s body, so if Blink teleports, the force field is not in her anymore, it’s where it was first made. Besides, Blink can’t teleport force fields so even if it were linked with her somehow, Blink couldn’t take it with her, and since the force fields don’t instantly kill anyone else, I don’t think it would instantly kill Blink. Anyway, I don’t think Sue would be trying to kill Blink. Blink on the other hand could blink some of the ground she’s standing on directly into Sue’s brain or Blink her head off remotely.
Super-Buster says:
” All she has to do is make a force field inside Blink's brain killing her instantly or if she didn't want to kill she could simply knock her out with an invisible force field shaped like a brick, its invisible so Blink wouldn't even see it coming and wouldn't know to get out of the way. “
Already talked about the insta-kill, but as for the brick, that attack would actually be slower. To make her force fields move, she has to make one, then generate additional force behind it to make it move, and if Blink starts with a teleport anyway, then the brick won’t be hitting her because she won’t be in place anymore. She wouldn’t have to know it’s coming, she would just be blinking as a normal way to move or in an attempt to set up her own attack. If they both do their thing at the same time, Blink just won’t be there anymore.
Super-Buster says:
” Once Sue is away from where she starts she can pretty much rely on her invisibility to keep her out of harm's way, meanwhile it is Blink who will have to keep teleporting or else risk an invisible aneurism or having an invisible brick slam into her. “
That’s assuming Sue knows where she reappears every time. If Blink teleports to cover, under water, out of range or something, then she doesn’t have to worry about anything right away because Sue is not going to instantly know where she is. If she reappears in plain sight then yes, but not if she’s hidden.
Super-Buster says:
” Sue can keep Blink off guard, she pretty much fights at the speed of thought and any time Blink stops teleporting is a chance for Sue to end the fight. “
Can you give me an example of any of her fights really going at the speed of thought? I know the creation of constructs is near instant, but their actual use doesn’t seem to be. Maybe it’s a result of having to make more force to move them or because her mind is engaged in shaping them how she wants and that takes a process of thought and not just a single command. One example that comes to mind is when she was fighting Doom after he turned to magic and kidnapped her children - which would have been a prime time for her to let loose since she had the motivation and killing Doom wouldn’t have been a mark against her character since Doom was immortal then and could come back from fatal attacks as he showed when other members of the team killed him – she attacked him in many ways but he was able to deflect them before attacks reached him, or when he wasn’t it took obvious time (not much, but they didn’t hit him in the same instant they were created) for them to reach him. And again, Blink not teleporting only works against her if she reappears where Sue can find her right away.
Super-Buster says:
” It doesn't even have to be very long, if Blink even risks an attack before she teleports, she also risks her defeat. As long as Susan escapes Blink's first attempt to teleport something inside her (which is very likely) then she knows its a possibility and she can defend against it by simply being invisible and moving, what if she moves back to where Blink originally teleported her sand? Would she think to teleport it there again? Sue has 3 dimensions and an open area, chances of Blink being successful with this strategy are very slim indeed. “
I’m not seeing how she risks serious attack. Say Blink teleports the ground she’s standing on into Sue or tries to teleport her head off, what is Sue doing at the same time that will stop her? I really don’t think she’ll be putting force fields in Blink in any way that is fatal, and anything other than that would only knock her out (provided Sue can do it fast enough) and that would still make her the winner since she’d get up from being knocked out and Sue wouldn’t. If Sue does attempt something fatal though (I’d think there would need to be a strong reason why) Blink’s move after the attack could be to teleport and ditch whatever is in her since it just being inside her won’t kill her and Blink could teleport before Sue makes it bigger or whatever since she’ll be having to deal with a piece of land in her head or not having one. As for finding Sue after, yeah it would be hard, but if she’s blinking huge amounts of water it could reveal Sue’s position (or just kill her by being pushed inside her) or she could teleport elsewhere in the world (while still blinking things at the area where the fight started so Sue thinks she’s there somewhere) and get heat vision goggles or something and come back.
Super-Buster says:
” So you're saying that Blink will never get tired? I know she can teleport easily and she doesn't get tired particularly easily, but if Blink is continually teleporting, wouldn't she eventually get tired? That was my argument anyways, you had Blink teleporting so rapidly that Sue wouldn't have a chance to get a hit in, and I said (or meant) that the only way for Blink to teleport too fast for Sue to get a hit in was if Blink did nothing but teleport since Sue can attack at about the same speed Blink can teleport. So as long as this is true and Blink is doing nothing but teleporting, then she will eventually get tired. “
Prove it. Do you have any example of her teleporting and getting tired as a result? The only one I can recall was when Galactus took over her powers and had her teleport Surfer far (space terms) away. The kind of distance that Surfer would consider far (the man can travel FTL) would have to be incredibly great. Other than that stunt, find an example of her getting tired from teleporting. Maybe she doesn’t get tired because she’s not moving her body over a distance and instead she’s just opening warps and that takes a lot less energy. Don’t know if that the case, just an idea.
Super-Buster says:
” How does being a physical fighter have any bearing on how fast Blink can get off attacks? Blink has honed her mind through years of fighting, but so has Sue. Blink has been flipping, throwing, and teleporting for years, Sue has been forming force fields for decades and has been turning invisible for even longer. Why would Clarice be able to teleport any faster than Sue can form a force field? They have both been fighting for a long time, a different kind of fighting yes, but fighting nonetheless, Sue has been shown to instinctively create force fields which she couldn't do before, meaning that she has gotten faster, has Clarice showed anything similar? “
Martial artists generally have faster reflexes than people who aren’t. You said there was nothing that says Blink might think faster than a normal person, but I think having greater reflexes (especially when her reflexes are trained to allow her to teleport at the drop of a hat, something she’s shown in fights with other martial artists) would support the idea that she could think to teleport faster than a normal person could think to do something else.
Super-Buster says:
” Yes, if Sue starts creating a force field in Blink as Blink starts teleporting then it won't work because Blink will be gone, but that's not what I'm saying. Blink has to do other things besides teleport herself to win this fight and while Blink is busy teleporting a piece of an island someplace hoping to hit Sue, or throwing spikes which are not guaranteed to land anywhere near Sue, or performing amazing acrobatic feats (ie: not teleporting herself) she gives Sue a chance to form one of her bubbles at the speed of thought and end the fight. I suppose Sue would attack first. If Blink attacked too then it would be a stalemate since they would both take each other out, if Blink teleports, then that gives Sue a chance to turn invisible. “
As I mentioned before, if they both attack at the same time, Clarice gets knocked out (until you can provide a compelling reason why Sue would kill her outright) and Sue dies. If Blink teleports as her first move (and blinks whatever she lands in/on when she gets there) while Sue is forming something inside her, but when Sue’s attack fails she turns invisible, she’s still in the area where she started and what Blink did with her second move would kill her. That’s assuming they both work at the same speed.
Super-Buster says:
” So you're blaming the writers on why Blink doesn't normally do things you think she would in this battle? “
I’m talking about one minor change (killing right away instead of later) that really isn’t much of a change. The things you’re having Sue do are more significant changes.
Super-Buster says:
” I can do that to: My belief is that the only reason Sue doesn't normally form force fields inside of people, levitate, and over-all use her powers to their full extent is because it would make her too mean and too overpowering of the other members of her team. They are supposed to be the Fantastic Four, but if Sue actually used her powers in ways that make more sense, she could handle most of the challenges the FF comes across by herself, and who wants to buy that comic? “
Putting force fields inside people is making her a killer when she’s not, it changes the morality of her character. Blink using an lethal attack in the beginning instead of waiting does not change her at all, especially when she knows the capabilities of her enemy. Flying around or wielding constructs at the speed of thought are things I’ve never seen her do before so it’s possible it’s something she can’t do (or needs more practice at). It’s not like she’s done it a few times and is being held back.
Super-Buster says:
” Again, you have Blink performing these blitzes at the beginning, using her powers to their fullest and using techniques she has only used a handful of times, so why not Sue? “
What blitzes? Teleporting away? It’s what she does. Teleporting things at the enemy? It’s something she does to powerful enemies. On the other hand, Sue doesn’t kill people with force fields and she doesn’t fly or use constructs at thought speed.
Super-Buster says:
” I think it would be an obvious tactic to form a force bubble inside Blink or, I don't know, move, so why won't you give Sue these abilities? Blink and Invisible Woman both have abilities that would let them fight a lot better than they normally do in comics, why would you give these abilities to Blink, but deny them to Sue? How is that fair? “
Already covered.
Super-Buster says:
” Why wouldn't Sue extend her force field up? As you said, she creates domes, not walls, she knows that attacks come in three dimensions, not two, and she knows that Blink is just as capable of teleporting up as she is as teleporting along the ground, especially if she sees Blink jumping and flipping like she normally does. Its true when I search a room for something I don't usually look up first, but Sue has the luxury of looking everywhere at once, why wouldn't she use it? “
She can take it up if she wants, it doesn’t change anything (especially since being in the air hasn’t been part of what I’ve been saying for a while now). I still don’t think her first thoughts will be “Oh yeah, she’s up in the sky,” but whatever.
Super-Buster says:
” Anyways, I guess this comes down to opinions then, because I think that Sue can move that fast using her force fields. She creates an manipulates force fields at the speed of thought, so wouldn't her movement only be limited by how fast she can think? Two seconds and she could be on another island. “
I proved (and disproved) my speculations earlier, now you prove yours.
Just want to sum up the possible attacks I’ve suggested for Blink. (This is for myself as much as you.) Teleporting away and instantly teleporting her surroundings at the area Sue was last at. Teleporting the ground and having it come back in a second. Teleporting the land she’s on into Sue. Teleporting Sue’s head off. 2 new ones: Making a huge warp and swallowing the whole area or creating multiple warps to space around Sue (starting wide and getting closer) and keeping them open so she can’t leave the area, then filling it. And how she might avoid being hit: teleporting repeatedly, teleporting to cover, teleporting under water and teleporting great distances.
is this still going on? geez.
wow Buckshot..write a damn dissertation! lol that was the best post I've ever seen
he does that all the time
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