@ultimatesage: lol you litterly sound like joviol. You have no proof the barriers slowed him down. And btw the barriers are litterly an inch thick and they opened for ichigo because of the oken.
Maybe you didn't see the part I specifically said "Mr. Joviolma already explained this" part of my post lmao or the part I directly quoted him and gave him the credit.smh
Why do I need proof that the barriers slowed him down?are you hearing yourself?
Liletto reacting aswalen is anti feat. Anyway like u just explained travel speed and combat speed are diffent. Litterly debunked yourself
If Lille reacting to it is an anit-feat then why the hell do you and emperor95 use it to justify LS/relevastic bleach characters cuz they "dodged light"?
Cool, does Guy also have infinite mass during the kick?
Maybe, the reason he would be bending space would be due to huge amount of relativistic mass acquired. It doesn't require infinite amounts though, a lot for sure, but not infinite.
nowhere is this accepted as legit...
I care because?
I might as well argue for Rel Cero's.
You're welcome to try, but I don't think it'll mean much in a verse where Mach 500 was held in such high regard at the time.
I don't think light is made out of water and lightning...
I don't think wood is made out of water and earth, nor are magnetic forces created by earth and wind. Your point? Are you about to ignore that storm release manipulates light, or that magnetic release creates magnetic forces?
besides that some poor sap copy and pasted your thread here.
Not surprised it wasn't accepted on VSbattles.
Also he didn't even dodge the beam just the swing.
Manga and anime say otherwise.
Great, how does this prove Rel+? which is about Mach 700k or something.
Are you asking me why bending space or dodging a beam of light is near LS?
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Cool, does Guy also have infinite mass during the kick?
Maybe, the reason he would be bending space would be due to huge amount of relativistic mass acquired. It doesn't require infinite amounts though, a lot for sure, but not infinite.
So unquantifable then, as excepted.
nowhere is this accepted as legit...
I care because?
You don't have to, feel free to argue infinite mass Guy or near infinite.
I might as well argue for Rel Cero's.
You're welcome to try, but I don't think it'll mean much in a verse where Mach 500 was held in such high regard at the time.
held in high regards by whom? Ichigo? who dodged it right after? I'd be impressed too if I saw a sword like that.
I don't think light is made out of water and lightning...
I don't think wood is made out of water and earth, nor are magnetic forces created by earth and wind. Your point? Are you about to ignore that storm release manipulates light, or that magnetic release creates magnetic forces?
I mean if you add water to earth you can get plants and shit which is wood in Naruto, just like fire and earth make lava, wind and water make ice. Storm style isn't light though so I don't understand what you mean by it manipulating light when it never has. Darui literally shows it's nonsensical via laser circus bending in all sorts of ways something light doesn't do unless there is a high amount of gravity, it doesn't refract, hell it cut Naruto's staff and didn't even display any sort of heat.
besides that some poor sap copy and pasted your thread here.
Not surprised it wasn't accepted on VSbattles.
And it's accepted here? i'd like to see where it was unanimously accepted on this website. Not sure how using a controversial feat helps your argument here.
Also he didn't even dodge the beam just the swing.
Manga and anime say otherwise.
Manga says he didn't though, it clearly shows him dodging the head swing with clear movement lines displaying it. Anime is irrelevant to me since it's non-canon.
Great, how does this prove Rel+? which is about Mach 700k or something.
Are you asking me why bending space or dodging a beam of light is near LS?
Which ever one you considering to be Rel+ which is in the 100s of thousands of mach.
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Simple math gives you a low/end distance, clearly he was traveling at the bare minimum of mach 1 via sonic booms and we already have a time-frame in the series. It's not rocket science.
Not unquantifiable, there's just no specific answer. A threshold instead like all other non-specific feats. We know it would have to be just under light speed to occur. It's really just the difference between 99.999% the speed of light, or 99.999999999999999999% the speed of light the value is asymptotic, not that it doesn't exist.
You don't have to, feel free to argue infinite mass Guy or near infinite.
Like you said about me not caring, I don't have to. The minimum speed required is just under LS.
held in high regards by whom? Ichigo? who dodged it right after?
Yes to all of those.
I'd be impressed too if I saw a sword like that.
Doesn't mean its particularly impressive outside its verse though. You'd be impressed by far less.
I mean if you add water to earth you can get plants and shit which is wood in Naruto...
You would need seeds to do that. Life doesn't arise spontaneously. Last I checked, Hashirama didn't have a giant watering can or a bag of seeds that grow entire forests upon contact with water.
just like fire and earth make lava, wind and water make ice.
and in Naruto, lightning and water make light. Why is this an issue?
Storm style isn't light though so I don't understand what you mean by it manipulating light when it never has.
All storm release jutsus are light based...all of them.
Darui literally shows it's nonsensical via laser circus bending in all sorts of ways something light doesn't do unless there is a high amount of gravity, it doesn't refract, hell it cut Naruto's staff and didn't even display any sort of heat.
What does this gotta do with anything though? None of these actually suggest said jutsu isn't made of light. You are only targetting functionality here and nothing else.
And it's accepted here? i'd like to see where it was unanimously accepted on this website.
Didn't say it was, but if no one can counter what I asserted with contradicting evidence, it still stands.
Not sure how using a controversial feat helps your argument here.
I'm not worried about how divisive the issue is...but if you're unable to refute it, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who needs to assert more evidence.
Manga says he didn't though, it clearly shows him dodging the head swing with clear movement lines displaying it.
Really now? I don't see that anywhere, do you have a diagram?
Anime is irrelevant to me since it's non-canon.
The anime isn't non canon, with the exception of filler episodes and scenes. Anything else would be an adaptation...which would fall under secondary canon with the original being the primary canon.
Which ever one you considering to be Rel+ which is in the 100s of thousands of mach.
I consider one rel+, and the other is LS...where does that leave you?
lol protecting him against friction means its not slowing him down.
No, it doesn't. It just means the frictional force is instead exerted on the cloth/robe he's wearing instead of his own body. The friction however is still acting on him though. Do you even realize how stupid this statement is?
lol protecting him against friction means its not slowing him down.
No, it doesn't. It just means the frictional force is instead exerted on the cloth/robe he's wearing instead of his own body. The friction however is still acting on him though. Do you even realize how stupid this statement is?
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Simple math gives you a low/end distance, clearly he was traveling at the bare minimum of mach 1 via sonic booms and we already have a time-frame in the series. It's not rocket science.
That's not the case because showings without the barriers indicate otherwise.
@ultimatesage: lol whats wrong with liletto dodging asuwhalden? People can except naruto dodging LF. Despite not having speed feats remotely close befor hand.
Ichigo was going at minimum mach 1. As we can see sonic booms
Mach 1 is 750nph. It took him 10 hours
750×10=7,500miles. Thats how far the Soul place is.
Takes the mimighi like 2 panles to get their. That at least 2 secs.
Their are 3600 seconds in one hour.
The mimighi traveled 7500miles in 2 secs
3600×7500=27 million mph/2=14 million
Thats mach 20,000. Sub relativistic. So even disregarding the fact ichigos travel speed is far above mach 1 at this point XD. And weaker characters like ichibe can shunpo 2500 miles in like one second.
Not unquantifiable, there's just no specific answer. A threshold instead like all other non-specific feats. We know it would have to be just under light speed to occur. It's really just the difference between 99.999% the speed of light, or 99.999999999999999999% the speed of light the value is asymptotic, not that it doesn't exist.
Nope it's just unquantifiable unless you can prove Guy had infinite mass, but you'll prob tell me that's how it works in Naruto.
You don't have to, feel free to argue infinite mass Guy or near infinite.
Like you said about me not caring, I don't have to. The minimum speed required is just under LS.
Okay.
held in high regards by whom? Ichigo? who dodged it right after?
Yes to all of those.
Clearly he'd be impressed, it's a sword moving at Mach 500 and 1,000.
I'd be impressed too if I saw a sword like that.
Doesn't mean its particularly impressive outside its verse though. You'd be impressed by far less.
Okay.
I mean if you add water to earth you can get plants and shit which is wood in Naruto...
You would need seeds to do that. Life doesn't arise spontaneously. Last I checked, Hashirama didn't have a giant watering can or a bag of seeds that grow entire forests upon contact with water.
Why would he need seeds? clearly at a base level it works like I stated. combine 2 general elements and you get something.
just like fire and earth make lava, wind and water make ice.
and in Naruto, lightning and water make light. Why is this an issue?
Do you realize how dumb this sounds? you're arguing its real light but telling me at the same time light in Naruto is composed of water and lightning. Light is composed of photons.
Storm style isn't light though so I don't understand what you mean by it manipulating light when it never has.
All storm release jutsus are light based...all of them.
They're based off water and lightning, not light. Not my fault Kishimoto doesn't know this which isn't surprising considering he doesn't even know how meteors work.
Darui literally shows it's nonsensical via laser circus bending in all sorts of ways something light doesn't do unless there is a high amount of gravity, it doesn't refract, hell it cut Naruto's staff and didn't even display any sort of heat.
What does this gotta do with anything though? None of these actually suggest said jutsu isn't made of light. You are only targetting functionality here and nothing else.
Because you stated storm style is light and therefore light speed. How do you evaluate fictional light without actually following simple standards of light? Outside of being called light speed it has nothing going for it.
And it's accepted here? i'd like to see where it was unanimously accepted on this website.
Didn't say it was, but if no one can counter what I asserted with contradicting evidence, it still stands.
Okay.
Not sure how using a controversial feat helps your argument here.
I'm not worried about how divisive the issue is...but if you're unable to refute it, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who needs to assert more evidence.
Don't have time for ad nauseam, there is no definitive proof he dodged it, if there was people wouldn't be arguing about it since 2016.
Manga says he didn't though, it clearly shows him dodging the head swing with clear movement lines displaying it.
Really now? I don't see that anywhere, do you have a diagram?
You see 2 clear distinct movement lines, his swing and Naruto's head movement.
Anime is irrelevant to me since it's non-canon.
The anime isn't non canon, with the exception of filler episodes and scenes. Anything else would be an adaptation...which would fall under secondary canon with the original being the primary canon.
It is non-canon no matter how you cut it.
Which ever one you considering to be Rel+ which is in the 100s of thousands of mach.
I consider one rel+, and the other is LS...where does that leave you?
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Simple math gives you a low/end distance, clearly he was traveling at the bare minimum of mach 1 via sonic booms and we already have a time-frame in the series. It's not rocket science.
That's not the case because showings without the barriers indicate otherwise.
I'm not sure what this even means, this is a low-end which means it's the bare minimum. so now you have a speed and time which is used to get distance. it's pretty simple.
Nothing you can say will change these 2 facts that he's at least mach 1 and that it took 9 hours and 15 minutes to get to soul society.
In my opinion Naruto is faster than Kaguya but Kaguya is stronger. He tagged her multiple times, and Naruto was too fast for her to use her physical touching BFR on him. Her dimension dump she doesn’t need physical contact, but her BFR she needs to touch the person and toss them inside. Sasuke who has Rinnegan was caught in it, Naruto was too fast for it.
While physically to me Naruto is the fastest, Madara should be the fastest in the verse when it comes to Jutsu with his move Light Fang that Naruto barely dodged. So I have Madara at 1 and Naruto at 2 for dodging LF and speedblitzing Kaguya, the progenitor of chakra.
No, it's not unquantifiable, I just gave you a minimum value, the only difference is I can't give you a maximum value because the relation is asymptotic. This is nothing aside from pure denial and you know it.
This is no different than proving how fast a character is if they create a sonic boom. Just by that, you already know said character is moving atleast at supersonic speeds, they could be moving faster, but you'd have no way to prove it. Yet said feat isn't unquantifable.
unless you can prove Guy had infinite mass...
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Determining how much 'mass' Guy had is entirely dependent on the speed he was moving at in that instance...so this has nothing to with anything.
but you'll prob tell me that's how it works in Naruto.
Do you have a point, or are you going to keep going off false premises?
Why would he need seeds?
Because trees don't grow spontaneously from earth and water. And you're arguing storm release isn't light based on the idea that lightning and water combined doesn't create light. Not to say this idea is wrong, but do you see the contradiction in your thinking here?
clearly at a base level it works like I stated.
Wait so wood arising spontaneously from earth and water elements is makes complete sense in your head, but when light is created from lightning and water...in a magical spell system, there's a problem?
combine 2 general elements and you get something.
So why is storm release different then?
Do you realize how dumb this sounds?
There's nothing dumb about it...it's just how the kekkei genkai works lol. Plus it's not even impossible to synthesize light from electricity and water...there's technology out there that does just that.
you're arguing its real light but telling me at the same time light in Naruto is composed of water and lightning.
I'm talking strictly storm release, not all actual light.
Light is composed of photons.
And wood is composed from specialized cells. Not earth and water.
They're based off water and lightning, not light.
The combination of water and lightning release Kekkai Genkai produce storm release, which deals with light. I really don't see why this is such a contentious issue.
Not my fault Kishimoto doesn't know this which isn't surprising considering he doesn't even know how meteors work.
That's your problem, no one else sees any issue with that.
Because you stated storm style is light and therefore light speed.
Strawman, I only said storm release is light...well loosely speaking. I never said storm release is light speed because of this.
How do you evaluate fictional light without actually following simple standards of light?
Let's see...we're told the jutsu is a beam of light by official sources and Kekkai Genkai in question uses lightning and water release to create light rays.
Outside of being called light speed it has nothing going for it.
That's already enough.
Don't have time for ad nauseam,
Concession accepted.
there is no definitive proof he dodged it...
I had already points that only suggested Naruto dodged the beam...
Naruto and Madara were directly facing each other.
Madara couldn't have swung from beyond Naruto's position (speedlines show that he went from rest position to facing the right).
Madara wouldn't have hit Naruto if he'd have swung before shooting the beam.
Those were just pieces of evidence. That's not definitive proof. However, the final nail in the coffin was the fact that the speedlines on the beam showed the origin of the swing began on the beam. Meaning the rod was indeed shot through the beam.
if there was people wouldn't be arguing about it since 2016.
People already deny proof when its given to them. This doesn't change anything. Are you about to tell me there's no definitive proof the Earth is round or that vaccines save lives because there are people who argue otherwise?
You see 2 clear distinct movement lines...
There are movement lines all over that page...what are you pointing at, and how do you know it's a movement line to begin with? Where is it even leading to? Where is it headed from, and can you point this out with certainty? I can certainly do that with my diagrams, can you?
his swing and Naruto's head movement.
No one disagrees with that, the contention is over where the movement started, which makes all the difference here. So merely swinging and ducking to the side doesn't say anything.
It is non-canon no matter how you cut it.
It is NOT non-canon no matter how you cut it. I can assert points without having to expand on them too.
Neither feat here is light speed...
Do you have something I can respond to with substance?
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Simple math gives you a low/end distance, clearly he was traveling at the bare minimum of mach 1 via sonic booms and we already have a time-frame in the series. It's not rocket science.
That's not the case because showings without the barriers indicate otherwise.
I'm not sure what this even means, this is a low-end which means it's the bare minimum. so now you have a speed and time which is used to get distance. it's pretty simple.
Nothing you can say will change these 2 facts that he's at least mach 1 and that it took 9 hours and 15 minutes to get to soul society.
I understand the logic behind the feat, I used the very same argument when I used to defend Bleach in certain threads. The only problem we already know that other objects which should be far slower in comparison to Ichigo have covered the distance is much less time, when the reiokyu was unprotected.
For instance Mimihagi did it, but you could also say Mimihagi was that fast. However the real kicker comes when Yhwach unleashes a stream of his own, and it reaches the Sereitei is just a few seconds as well. Again you could also claim that Yhwach's stream is just that fast as well...except for the following that Joviolma pointed out.
Multiple fodder reacted to it falling, when it was already in the visible range.
Lilotto avoided Auswahlen that reached the sereitei just as quickly, yet she is unable to react to Ichigo's shunpo which should logically be astronomically slower.
@ultimatesage: ichigo never indirectly stated that the speed he used to travel down is faster than his shunpo. What he did to the femritters is a sprint the travel to soul society is a marathon you have to run them differently.
Weird how goku travel speed can be lower than his combat speed but ichigo can't
Already addressed above. Shunpo is a sprint not to be used over extremely massive distances
Kubo NEVER drew lines to show a full 360 spin like you are claiming. You have slow ignored the fact that askin wouldn't be surprised by her catching an arrow when he wasn't surprised a weakened version of her could dodge his arrows.
You can literally see yoruichi dodging the arrow she even looks at it as it passes by lmao
Do you know how people in bleach draw swords? The sword is at the hip and then they pull it out and point it at the enemy. No turn needed to point it. Yoruichi did that same movement but with the arrow
@theemperor95: I don't think he is complaining about Ichigo being slow in combat, he is talking about his travel speed, and as far I know, Master Roshi has Supersonic combat speed and is barely superhuman in travel, is obviously that the same applies to Goku that should be FTLightning in combat.
Jolovlma you have the worst arguments on CV to date. Always lowballing the speed anyway possible. Liletto reacting to asuwhalden somehow debunks thw feat. Yet when charaters like sakura react and damaged supposed LS god tiers. When kaski kamuied madaras tsb. When shin can tagg and damage naruto and sasuke. Boruto can react and damage mommo. U act like it never happened
Lol get out brooo. Your clearly have a biased and clearly obvious. Wish you would use that same energy to defend bleach.
@azureus: Your thoughts about the Mimihagi feat ? Do you think is Sub-Rel. or do you think the explanation provided is enough to say the feat is take out of context ?
That feat is unquantifiable since no one knows the actual distance.
Simple math gives you a low/end distance, clearly he was traveling at the bare minimum of mach 1 via sonic booms and we already have a time-frame in the series. It's not rocket science.
That's not the case because showings without the barriers indicate otherwise.
I'm not sure what this even means, this is a low-end which means it's the bare minimum. so now you have a speed and time which is used to get distance. it's pretty simple.
Nothing you can say will change these 2 facts that he's at least mach 1 and that it took 9 hours and 15 minutes to get to soul society.
I understand the logic behind the feat, I used the very same argument when I used to defend Bleach in certain threads. The only problem we already know that other objects which should be far slower in comparison to Ichigo have covered the distance is much less time, when the reiokyu was unprotected.
Exactly what objects are far slower them at least mach 1? last I checked the only object capable of traveling to the reiokyu is a magical rocket ship.
For instance Mimihagi did it, but you could also say Mimihagi was that fast.
Clearly he is that fast, you can't argue it took no more then 5 seconds. He was desperately trying to stop the collapse of the entire verse.
However the real kicker comes when Yhwach unleashes a stream of his own, and it reaches the Sereitei is just a few seconds as well.
And this is an anti-feat how...? the black stream is literally an extension of Mimihagi's power. the same being who just traveled up there.
Again you could also claim that Yhwach's stream is just that fast as well...except for the following that Joviolma pointed out.
Okay.
Multiple fodder reacted to it falling, when it was already in the visible range.
Multiple fodder...? You do realize the beam was covering the dome over soul society right? The lieutenants reacted to nothing except seeing pitch black.
Lilotto avoided Auswahlen that reached the sereitei just as quickly,
What exactly does this mean? it mean's Liltotto was fast enough to react to a beam covering the distance.
yet she is unable to react to Ichigo's shunpo which should logically be astronomically slower.
This is counter-evidence how? Shunpo doesn't have a set speed smh it's literally akin to teleportation and is relative to the speed of the person using it. He literally blitzed them in the same instance he crash landed without delay via using Shunpo. They can't do anything to Ichigo at all in a 4 v 1. So now we know he's astronomically superior to them in every way.
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