KOTD Panther, and current Fantomex
Black Panther vs. Fantomex
Fantomax will misdirect BP so badly that BP will think he's white.
Fantomax wins
What are Fantomex's abilities and how does his misdirection work? Is that a skill or is it a metahuman ability? Also, what is E.V.A. and what does it do?
Fantomax will misdirect BP so badly that BP will think he's white.
Fantomax wins
What are Fantomex's abilities and how does his misdirection work? Is that a skill or is it a metahuman ability? Also, what is E.V.A. and what does it do?
Misdirection is a form of telepathy he refers to as "misdirection", which allows him to create realistic and immersive illusions on a variety of scales.
I am not familiar with E.V.A.
But here are his abilities via his CV Bio:
It is important to note that Fantomex has a history of misleading others, although his intentions are not always obvious. As with his early history, he claims many things about his powers that are not necessarily substantiated by evidence. Fantomex has exhibited a variety of mental powers, one of which is having the ability to enter himself into a state of "auto-hypnosis", effectively putting his body on auto-pilot in order to perform surgery and other delicate tasks on himself. He exhibited this ability once by inducing this state in order to remove several bullets from his body. He exhibits a form of telepathy he refers to as "misdirection", which allows him to create realistic and immersive illusions on a variety of scales.
His misdirection is powerful enough to fool large numbers of people and even the most powerful and experienced telepaths, as evident when he showed Professor X and Jean Grey his home in the mountains complete with a variety of stolen goods and a woman he called his mother. He is also a master at reading body-language, able to discern up the intentions of those around him by simply observing posture, gestures, and facial movements. Fantomex has an external nervous system named E.V.A. He claims to have produced E.V.A. through his mouth one day when he lost his voice while still in The World. She later continued to grow and changed form into a flying saucer. EVA is capable of independent thought, but acts as Fantomex's primary external nervous system. They share each others thoughts as well as emotions.
His secondary nervous system is located in his body, but is not advanced. When using his secondary nervous system alone he is only able to see the world in black and white. Aside from his more notable abilities, Fantomex possesses many other characteristics which are heightened beyond those of a normal human. He possesses Olympic-level strength, speed, stamina, and agility. He is an expert marksman, and is able to use this ability even when doing complicated acrobatic movements during a fight. He is also a skilled hand-to-hand combatant. Fantomex has stated he no longer carries any form of scent. He has a chip implanted in his brain preventing him from worshiping anything (making him an atheist).
Fantomex is one of the most mysterious people in the Marvel Universe. He talks in a heavy French accent which leads many people to believe that he is French, but he has revealed to some that he speaks with the accent because he finds it distracts and annoys people. Regardless of the situation, Fantomex plays his cards very close to his chest, with his true motivations often left unknown until the moment he decides to tip his hand.
Fantomax will misdirect BP so badly that BP will think he's white.
Fantomax wins
What are Fantomex's abilities and how does his misdirection work? Is that a skill or is it a metahuman ability? Also, what is E.V.A. and what does it do?
From what i've gathered in comics and online, Fantomex is originally a mutant with undisclosed powers. He was a Weapon's X project so we don't know if that enhanced his powers or gave him new ones. His misdirection is a combination of telepathy and illusion casting. To date(as far as I know) no one has been able to get past his misdirection. E.V.A is his nervous system that somehow evolved into a space ship then into a human-like being. E.V.A kind of reminds me of Mr. Terrific T-Spheres. It can shoot lazers, scan people, interact with machines etc. His misdirection has worked on Prof X, jean grey and cyborgs from the future. He mainly uses guns and knives. Has no scent. That's all i got
@pooty: @lxlgiftedlxl: Thanks for the info, both of you. I managed to find a respect thread here for him as well.
As far as I know about Fantomex now, his misdirection power could most likely be T'Challa's downfall here. His ability to read body language could also be a factor. T'Challa can do the same, but it's seems like Fantomex's ability to do it is more advanced.
On the flipside, how does Fantomex deal with T'Challa's cloaking and teleportation?
@static_shock: No problem.
I think BP's cloaking and teleportation would be enough to assist BP greatly against Fantomex. But the real problem for BP to deal with is misdirection, how well is his mental defense?
@static_shock: No problem.
I think BP's cloaking and teleportation would be enough to assist BP greatly against Fantomex. But the real problem for BP to deal with is misdirection, how well is his mental defense?
Well, his mental defenses are on point. He's blocked his mind from Cable once, and Emma Frost failed to read his mind recently, and T'Challa told her to best stay out of it.
@static_shock: No problem.
I think BP's cloaking and teleportation would be enough to assist BP greatly against Fantomex. But the real problem for BP to deal with is misdirection, how well is his mental defense?
Well, his mental defenses are on point. He's blocked his mind from Cable once, and Emma Frost failed to read his mind recently, and T'Challa told her to best stay out of it.
Was the Emma Frost instance in Original Sin?
And Fantomex's misdirection isn't a confirmed form of telepathy and has even been described as being a mild form of reality warping that causes illusions. He doesn't necessarily effect someone's mind like a traditional telepath that can be blocked with some psi-shields, and it's worked on both Jean Grey and Charles Xavier, arguably the two greatest telepaths in Marvel. So it's an extremely ill defined, but a rather hax power.
And Fantomex's misdirection isn't a confirmed form of telepathy and has even been described as being a mild form of reality warping that causes illusions. He doesn't necessarily effect someone's mind like a traditional telepath that can be blocked with some psi-shields, and it's worked on both Jean Grey and Charles Xavier, arguably the two greatest telepaths in Marvel. So it's an extremely ill defined, but a rather hax power.
Yes, it was in Original Sin.
Though, I had a feeling that misdirection would still be a problem since it worked on Marvel's most powerful telepaths.
@static_shock: in original sin Emma's powers were severely weakened, so I'm not sure it's necessarily the best example of BP's tp resistance.
And misdirection has only been countered once to my knowledge, and that was by Dark Beast I believe but he preppe for it. And that was also ill-defined in how e did it lol. Maybe if he had some serious prep time but like I said it's such an ill-defined ability on how it works an how to counter it.
@static_shock: in original sin Emma's powers were severely weakened, so I'm not sure it's necessarily the best example of BP's tp resistance.
And misdirection has only been countered once to my knowledge, and that was by Dark Beast I believe but he preppe for it. And that was also ill-defined in how e did it lol. Maybe if he had some serious prep time but like I said it's such an ill-defined ability on how it works an how to counter it.
I had no idea she was weakened in that story. Either way, it wouldn't really matter against misdirection at this point.
I can only see Panther dealing with misdirection if he had prep. But, then it would be up to a writer to come up with the scenario for it since it is vaguely defined as to what misdirection is.
@spydey: quote-"..has resisted two top tier telepaths, it's no longer telepathy. It's telepathy."
Is this some new anti-thesis which I'm not aware of, cause I see no sense there xD
P.S Famtomex wins. I don't see how dealing with 'telepaths' can possibly make T'challa immune to Misdirection.
Fantomex is on a whole new level.
While T'challa should have an edge of Fantomex in physicals/skill, a lot of this match depends on what suit T'challa is wearing based off the time of thread. I'm guessing it was around Secret Wars time. If that's the case, Fantomex likely wins with Misdirection as T'challa has no ready counter for it in a random encounter. T'challa would have to put Fantomex down before he uses Misdirection which won't be likely considering Fantomex's own endurance. However if T'challa does receive his Vibranium microweave, then he could last long enough to get through Misdirection and eventualy defeat Fantomex.
I'm sure there's some reason if it hasn't happened, but has anyone ever directly attacked E.V.A.?
Haven't finished reading everything for Charlie but Sebastian Shaw has been shown to attack and actually knock E.V.A out in Uncanny X-Men #532:
Normally Fantomex experiences the same pain she feels, but he can rely on a secondary nervous system to stop the negative feedback.
I'm sure there's some reason if it hasn't happened, but has anyone ever directly attacked E.V.A.?
Haven't finished reading everything for Charlie but Sebastian Shaw has been shown to attack and actually knock E.V.A out in Uncanny X-Men #532:
Normally Fantomex experiences the same pain she feels, but he can rely on a secondary nervous system to stop the negative feedback.
Hmmmm, wonder what would happen if someone killed it. I'm a bad person. Sue me. :)
@heroup2112: Lol, but I believe either can live while the other dies, as E.V.A was around for a little while on her own after Fantomex was killed by the Skinless Man in Uncanny X-Force
@heroup2112: Lol, but I believe either can live while the other dies, as E.V.A was around for a little while on her own after Fantomex was killed by the Skinless Man in Uncanny X-Force
I can imagine either could, I would just imagine that it would severely hamper either of their powers.
@heroup2112: I would too as it was never fully clear or really shown what the separation effects were.
@heroup2112: I would too as it was never fully clear or really shown what the separation effects were.
It would be interesting to see, I agree.
I've seen several people mentioning how his misdirection is a form of telepathy but, now that it's been shown T'Challa has resisted two top tier telepaths, it's no longer telepathy. It's telepathy. Also, psychics aren't resistant to other forms of telepathy.
"Misdirection" has never been confirmed as telepathy. It has been intentionally left vague by most writers so they could mold its effects and boundaries to fit in the needs of whatever story they are working on. Most conjecture assumed it was a power akin to Lady Mastermind since it is reliant on concentration and it only worked on sentient organics. However, there are three main objections:
- He almost always requires his victims to be in the immediate vicinity or line of sight. Sensing and manipulating other minds outside of the standard five senses is a standard boon of telepathy, and it's quite bizarre that a telepath would show zero proficiency in other aspects of psionics regardless of form. Not to mention he lacks access to the Astral Plane.
- A doppleganger successfully tricked 616 Fantomex with his misdirection during the Deathlok Nation arc of Uncanny X-Force. That should be impossible as his ceramic psi-shields block all telepathic intrusion, and I mean all. Xavier, Jean Grey with the Phoenix Force, and the Shadow King have all attempted to probe his mind with no success. Just as relevant, neither of the first two recognized they were being misdirected when it was used on them. Telepaths of their caliber routinely detect any attempts to manipulate them mentally. Lastly, psi-shields traditionally block telepathic communication from both sides. If Fantomex was using any sort of telepathy or mental manipulation, he couldn't break through his own defenses (unless defense technology from the World was that advanced).
- In the same comic, a warped future version of Jamie Braddock broke his misdirection by undoing reality in the local area. If the ability was creating mental illusions or any form of TP, this wouldn't work.
My best guess is it's some weird quantum superposition state that is enacted when he targets other conscious minds, something like what Pythagoras Dupree used to confound Amadeus Cho in The Incredible Hercules. It's certainly not direct reality warping a la Franklin Richards, fine-tuned TK in the mold of Nate Grey/unrestrained Cable, or standard telepathy.
Long story short, Fantomex wins on virtue of this ability alone. I would give him a slight edge in physical attributes as well with KotD T'Challa having greater strength. However, Fantomex's redundancy systems would make a killing blow hard to accomplish e.g. he can function normally after getting shot in the head. Would have to specify tech if that's going to be a relevant factor.
Black panther would win in a straight fight, but because of misdirection. I can see fantomex taking a majority against him
I've seen several people mentioning how his misdirection is a form of telepathy but, now that it's been shown T'Challa has resisted two top tier telepaths, it's no longer telepathy. It's telepathy. Also, psychics aren't resistant to other forms of telepathy.
"Misdirection" has never been confirmed as telepathy. It has been intentionally left vague by most writers so they could mold its effects and boundaries to fit in the needs of whatever story they are working on. Most conjecture assumed it was a power akin to Lady Mastermind since it is reliant on concentration and it only worked on sentient organics. However, there are three main objections:
- He almost always requires his victims to be in the immediate vicinity or line of sight. Sensing and manipulating other minds outside of the standard five senses is a standard boon of telepathy, and it's quite bizarre that a telepath would show zero proficiency in other aspects of psionics regardless of form. Not to mention he lacks access to the Astral Plane.
- A doppleganger successfully tricked 616 Fantomex with his misdirection during the Deathlok Nation arc of Uncanny X-Force. That should be impossible as his ceramic psi-shields block all telepathic intrusion, and I mean all. Xavier, Jean Grey with the Phoenix Force, and the Shadow King have all attempted to probe his mind with no success. Just as relevant, neither of the first two recognized they were being misdirected when it was used on them. Telepaths of their caliber routinely detect any attempts to manipulate them mentally.
- In the same comic, a warped future version of Jamie Braddock broke his misdirection by undoing reality in the local area. If the ability was creating mental illusions or any form of TP, this wouldn't work.
My best guess is it's some weird quantum superposition state that is enacted when he targets other conscious minds, something like what Pythagoras Dupree used to confound Amadeus Cho in The Incredible Hercules. It's certainly not direct reality warping a la Franklin Richards, fine-tuned TK in the mold of Nate Grey/unrestrained Cable, or standard telepathy.
Long story short, Fantomex wins on virtue of this ability alone. I would give him a slight edge in physical attributes as well with KotD T'Challa having greater strength. However, Fantomex's redundancy systems would make a killing blow hard to accomplish e.g. he can function normally after getting shot in the head. Would have to specify tech if that's going to be a relevant factor.
I love the breakdown of this, and you are correct as it has been stated in several books, it's not telepathy, it's a illusion or a warping of someone's perception, it's not reality warping, because it generally only affects 1 person, and the environment around them doesn't change. It's possible that he may be displacing their minds in an alternative reality.
That being said given who T'challa is, I doubt this would work on him, BP taking on and beating Mephisto at his own game, means that BP wouldn't be easily fooled or feed into the deception. And this would only work once which means that Fantomex would have to take him down in the short time this would distract him. Which I don't think will be very long at all.
The other problem here is that you are assuming that BP won't make the first strike, He is far better at stealth attack, has teleportation, Fantomex's weapons won't really have an affect on his suit, and Fantomex is outmatched in every category. So all it would take to win would be one good strike which BP could do easily. Since this is in character, it's highly doubtful that BP wouldn't have intel on Fantomex's abilities given his proximity to the x-men and he would prep for it, because that's what he does. BP would win this 9/10 times. 1 for a scenario where he couldn't figure out the misdirect... this is highly doubtful.
I love the breakdown of this, and you are correct as it has been stated in several books, it's not telepathy, it's a illusion or a warping of someone's perception, it's not reality warping, because it generally only affects 1 person, and the environment around them doesn't change. It's possible that he may be displacing their minds in an alternative reality.
Fantomex can affect whole groups of people (see his introduction, Remender's Uncanny X-Force, etc.). Archangel referred to it as "reality skewing" but beyond that, no writer has ever bothered going into the mechanics of it.
That being said given who T'challa is, I doubt this would work on him, BP taking on and beating Mephisto at his own game, means that BP wouldn't be easily fooled or feed into the deception. And this would only work once which means that Fantomex would have to take him down in the short time this would distract him. Which I don't think will be very long at all.
During that story Mephisto made deliberately overwrought illusions, intended to overwhelm and break BP's will; it was the middle of a particular intense negotiation. Fantomex relies on simple, pragmatic ones for cloak-and-dagger purposes. BP's past feats in resisting psychic or magical manipulation don't apply here as most deterrents (introspection, willpower, telepathic prowess, psi-blocks) don't work against misdirection. Even if you recognize it's in effect, the illusions still keep running.
The counters shown so far are:
- Fantomex gets injured and loses focus
- literally warping space-time to cancel them out
- creating a feedback loop in his nervous system that scrambles his concentration (which was frankly a BS solution Dark Beast came up with, as he uses misdirection to escape a few panels later and it never gets brought up again in the Archangel Saga)
Now it's perfectly possible that T'Challa can negate it with magic, some technology he has easy access to, or using the powers bestowed upon him by Bast. But I haven't seen any in-universe feats implying those are feasible solutions or arguable ones within a battle thread. It would be pure speculation at that point.
The other problem here is that you are assuming that BP won't make the first strike, He is far better at stealth attack, has teleportation, Fantomex's weapons won't really have an affect on his suit, and Fantomex is outmatched in every category. So all it would take to win would be one good strike which BP could do easily. Since this is in character, it's highly doubtful that BP wouldn't have intel on Fantomex's abilities given his proximity to the x-men and he would prep for it, because that's what he does. BP would win this 9/10 times. 1 for a scenario where he couldn't figure out the misdirect... this is highly doubtful.
The OP never set the conditions of the battle and any confrontation involving prep time needs to be explicitly mentioned. So we are assuming a face-to-face battle with standard equipment. Which begs the question: since E.V.A. is his mutation, does she counter as part of his default equipment?
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