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#1 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Canary and Katana:

No Caption Provided

VS

Elektra and Black Widow:

No Caption Provided

When Black Canary and Katana team up to take on Elektra and Black Widow, who will win?

Composite pre and post Flashpoint feats allowed for Canary and Katana

Fight takes place in the streets of Gotham. Time is twilight.

All are in character. Victory by ko or death

Round 1:

Katana has her sword. Elektra has her sai.

Widow is unarmed

Canary is depowered.

I'm not totally clear on the nature of Elektra's powers, don't think she uses them much, but she's depowered too, if it matters

Starting distance is 20 feet

Round 2:

Standard gear for all

Canary has her powers

Elektra can have her powers too

Starting distance is 100 feet

Who wins?

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have much knowledge on Katana so i'll wait for some arguments.

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#3 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel wins both rounds.

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#4 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel wins both rounds.

Any reasons?

I don't have much knowledge on Katana so i'll wait for some arguments.

I'm not super familiar with her pre-Flashpoint, but here's some more recent feats

Very casual bullet timer
Very casual bullet timer
Taking out some fodder while slicing bullets down
Taking out some fodder while slicing bullets down
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Fought Rustam, stated to be one of the best swordsmen in the world by Waller (he doesn't have tons of feats, but he's a bullet timer and clears through fodder). Shows some impressive speed in this fight

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Showing speed and coordination

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Fought and beat Coil, a master of the coil sword, using his own type of weapon (instead of her katana). This isn't the whole fight, just the end of it. Notable because they were using his weapon of choice, a type of sword Katana had only started training with recently (for the purpose of this fight)

When she was recruited for the JLA, said to be a rival to Deathstroke for the title of deadliest assassin in the world. Admittedly, Deathstroke would definitely beat her, but still worth noting
When she was recruited for the JLA, said to be a rival to Deathstroke for the title of deadliest assassin in the world. Admittedly, Deathstroke would definitely beat her, but still worth noting

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#5 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: They're more skilled and faster in R1. Just about it.

R2, they're more skilled, more versatile, faster and Canary's Cry is nowhere near as good as people are making it out to be.

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#6 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18313 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have much knowledge on Katana so i'll wait for some arguments.

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#7 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Anyone's game.

Hand to hand, I think Elektra has a-not huuuuge-but noticeable edge over the she-samurai. But, as Tatsu has pulled off some truly impressive maneuvers with her weapon against formidable and skilled opponents (Slade, Ra's Al Ghul, Major Force, etc.) I think the soultaker sword edges out the sais in effectiveness. So, either could win a battle on a given day.

In pure combat skill, Widow and Canary are also a wash. Many on the site for some reason seem to think Dinah has a big advantage in this area---but, as Natasha has, among other feats stalemated Elektra, defeated The Red Guardian (who absolutely stalemated Captain America in a long, extended battle in Avengers issue 44) and defeated Captain America himself in his own book in Captain America issue 376---I think the two are evenly matched.

So, either team has a 50/50 chance to win

Round 2: Same deal

Nothing really changes for Katana and Elektra. Canary's cry as a lethal ace in the hole is matched by Natasha's widows bite. So whoever utilizes said ace in the hole first could possibly win.

As stated-this battle is anyone's game.

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#8 Posted by Bastets (256 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 Marvel

Round 2 Dc

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#9 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@bastets said:

Round 1 Marvel

Round 2 Dc

Any reasons?

Round 1: Anyone's game.

Hand to hand, I think Elektra has a-not huuuuge-but noticeable edge over the she-samurai. But, as Tatsu has pulled off some truly impressive maneuvers with her weapon against formidable and skilled opponents (Slade, Ra's Al Ghul, Major Force, etc.) I think the soultaker sword edges out the sais in effectiveness. So, either could win a battle on a given day.

In pure combat skill, Widow and Canary are also a wash. Many on the site for some reason seem to think Dinah has a big advantage in this area---but, as Natasha has, among other feats stalemated Elektra, defeated The Red Guardian (who absolutely stalemated Captain America in a long, extended battle in Avengers issue 44) and defeated Captain America himself in his own book in Captain America issue 376---I think the two are evenly matched.

So, either team has a 50/50 chance to win

Round 2: Same deal

Nothing really changes for Katana and Elektra. Canary's cry as a lethal ace in the hole is matched by Natasha's widows bite. So whoever utilizes said ace in the hole first could possibly win.

As stated-this battle is anyone's game.

Glad it's a close one

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#10 Posted by Bastets (256 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Katana is better with her sword than Elektra, but Black widow is far better imo in fighting h2h than BC. However the two of them would put Katana down.

round 2 is different cause BC has her powers which makes this a good win for them.

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#11 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@bastets said:

@arcus1: Katana is better with her sword than Elektra, but Black widow is far better imo in fighting h2h than BC. However the two of them would put Katana down.

round 2 is different cause BC has her powers which makes this a good win for them.

What makes Widow far better than Canary?

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#12 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father said:

I don't have much knowledge on Katana so i'll wait for some arguments.

Got some more feats for her, pre-Flashpoint this time, can't confirm if they're outliers or not though

Uses a nerve strike (granted, not particularly relevant when she has a sword)
Uses a nerve strike (granted, not particularly relevant when she has a sword)
Climbing a building by apparently making handholds barehanded
Climbing a building by apparently making handholds barehanded
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Had a fight with Shiva (Shiva attacked her and stole the Soultaker earlier in the issue). Does well initially, but then Shiva stabs her with the Soultaker. Because the Soultaker's weird and takes your soul when it kills you, Tatsu gets to kill a dragon guy (who's also in the sword) and come back to life to fight Shiva some more. Doesn't win, but she shows some good moves

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#13 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Oh, yeah, I remember that "Fight Lady Shiva" feat; I have the comic in storage, or in my attic somewhere...

In fact, Tatsu didn't really lose that final fight with her opponent, either (vastly impressing Shiva so much she actually left the battle on her own accord).

So, even more noteworthy for Katana.

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#14 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Any more thoughts?

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#15 Posted by Bastets (256 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: IIRC Canary isn't as trained as she received her training within the justice league itself. However I also feel since widow was trained at a young age this also gives her advanage. Both were trained by their groups, but BW has been training longer and I feel her feats as a whole stack up better than BC.

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#16 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@bastets said:

@arcus1: IIRC Canary isn't as trained as she received her training within the justice league itself. However I also feel since widow was trained at a young age this also gives her advanage. Both were trained by their groups, but BW has been training longer and I feel her feats as a whole stack up better than BC.

Depending on which version you go with, Canary's been training a very long time. Pre-Flashpoint has her training with the Justice Society as a girl, followed by continued training over the years, including training with Shiva

http://i.imgur.com/kjDMNLG.jpg Describing her teachers/training in her fight with Savant

What feats does Widow have that you think are better than Canary's?

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#17 Posted by superman52445 (432 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: team two

Round 2: team 1 easily...

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#18 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: team two

Round 2: team 1 easily...

Any reasons?

Canary's often not inclined to use her Cry as a first resort, and Widow has ranged gear that could be useful as well for round 2

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#19 Posted by dami24434 (4351 posts) - - Show Bio

team marvel both rounds, elektra is so much faster than anyone here it hurts and she won't hold back.

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#20 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

just to start a debate, Katana and Black Canary in both rounds

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#21 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Kantana isn't a "casual" bullet timer to my knowledge. Those scans can easily be attributed to aim blocking, esspecially considering her mastery over the blade.

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#22 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: in one of the scans she reacts to bullets fired behind her, sending them back at the shooter (maybe it’s not clear in the section I posted). There’s another instance where she moves to intercept a bullet fired at Amanda Waller, I can show that in a bit as another clear example. She blocks and slices bullets on a very regular basis

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#23 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Kantana isn't a "casual" bullet timer to my knowledge. Those scans can easily be attributed to aim blocking, esspecially considering her mastery over the blade.

Here's the instance I was talking about above, with Waller

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

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#25 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@anthp2000 said:

@arcus1: Kantana isn't a "casual" bullet timer to my knowledge. Those scans can easily be attributed to aim blocking, esspecially considering her mastery over the blade.

Here's the instance I was talking about above, with Waller

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Yes, that is cut clear bullet timing. But usually when street levellers dance around bullets and slice and dice them out of the air effortlessly, it's more aim dodging/blocking.

Thanx for the scans.

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#26 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

How do you figure? If it’s just avoiding gunfire by being evasive, then yeah, that’s probably just aim dodging. But if they’re actually deflecting bullets, particularly with something as small as the edge of a sword, that would seem to be bullet timing to me

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#27 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@anthp2000:

How do you figure? If it’s just avoiding gunfire by being evasive, then yeah, that’s probably just aim dodging. But if they’re actually deflecting bullets, particularly with something as small as the edge of a sword, that would seem to be bullet timing to me

There is aim blocking, and it's very common amongst weapon masters, such as Kantana. Instead of just dancing around the line of fire, they place their blade (or whatever) in front of them, it's like what Bucky did with his metal arm in CW for instance.

It's easier for weapon specialists to do it with something as small as a blade, because they're masters and precise on using it.

Now, litteraly slicing bullets out of the air is another story and imo, not to be attributed as anything else than casual timing.

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#28 Edited by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@anthp2000:

How do you figure? If it’s just avoiding gunfire by being evasive, then yeah, that’s probably just aim dodging. But if they’re actually deflecting bullets, particularly with something as small as the edge of a sword, that would seem to be bullet timing to me

There is aim blocking, and it's very common amongst weapon masters, such as Kantana. Instead of just dancing around the line of fire, they place their blade (or whatever) in front of them, it's like what Bucky did with his metal arm in CW for instance.

It's easier for weapon specialists to do it with something as small as a blade, because they're masters and precise on using it.

Now, litteraly slicing bullets out of the air is another story and imo, not to be attributed as anything else than casual timing.

I guess I can get behind that, though imo even just blocking bullets in that manner (unless they clearly have time to be prepared for the bullets) shows speed that, if not full bullet timing, is very close

Here's the other instance I was talking about, this time showing more clearly how the shooter was behind her

No Caption Provided

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#29 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@anthp2000 said:
@arcus1 said:

@anthp2000:

How do you figure? If it’s just avoiding gunfire by being evasive, then yeah, that’s probably just aim dodging. But if they’re actually deflecting bullets, particularly with something as small as the edge of a sword, that would seem to be bullet timing to me

There is aim blocking, and it's very common amongst weapon masters, such as Kantana. Instead of just dancing around the line of fire, they place their blade (or whatever) in front of them, it's like what Bucky did with his metal arm in CW for instance.

It's easier for weapon specialists to do it with something as small as a blade, because they're masters and precise on using it.

Now, litteraly slicing bullets out of the air is another story and imo, not to be attributed as anything else than casual timing.

I guess I can get behind that, though imo even just blocking bullets in that manner (unless they clearly have time to be prepared for the bullets) shows speed that, if not full bullet timing, is very close

Here's the other instance I was talking about, this time showing more clearly how the shooter was behind her

No Caption Provided

That is absolutely clear bullet timing too because we see the bullets getting fired while Kanatana has not changed her position, yet she turns around the deflects them on the other panel.

Damn, she's incredibly fast.

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#30 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@anthp2000 said:
@arcus1 said:

@anthp2000:

How do you figure? If it’s just avoiding gunfire by being evasive, then yeah, that’s probably just aim dodging. But if they’re actually deflecting bullets, particularly with something as small as the edge of a sword, that would seem to be bullet timing to me

There is aim blocking, and it's very common amongst weapon masters, such as Kantana. Instead of just dancing around the line of fire, they place their blade (or whatever) in front of them, it's like what Bucky did with his metal arm in CW for instance.

It's easier for weapon specialists to do it with something as small as a blade, because they're masters and precise on using it.

Now, litteraly slicing bullets out of the air is another story and imo, not to be attributed as anything else than casual timing.

I guess I can get behind that, though imo even just blocking bullets in that manner (unless they clearly have time to be prepared for the bullets) shows speed that, if not full bullet timing, is very close

Here's the other instance I was talking about, this time showing more clearly how the shooter was behind her

No Caption Provided

That is absolutely clear bullet timing too because we see the bullets getting fired while Kanatana has not changed her position, yet she turns around the deflects them on the other panel.

Damn, she's incredibly fast.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous

Was just as fast pre-Flashpoint
Was just as fast pre-Flashpoint

And it shows in her fights too, not just against projectiles

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#31 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26784 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: And I just noticed she even did it with enough precision to kill the shooter with those bullets, like wow.

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#32 Posted by dami24434 (4351 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie : .

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#33 Posted by superman52445 (432 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: my bad i wanted to say round 2 team 2 wins

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#34 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: my bad i wanted to say round 2 team 2 wins

Oh ok

Any reasons for it being so easy?

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#35 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm inclined to say Team Marvel, but in reality this is anyone's fight.

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#36 Posted by superman52445 (432 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by termiteone4ever (12795 posts) - - Show Bio

This could go either way.

Depending on who matches who.

I don't know about Electra defeating katana at all with weapons. I don't see that happening.

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#38 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by ProteusXManRxis (4446 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel.

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#40 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by dami24434 (4351 posts) - - Show Bio
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elektra is mvp and the reason why marvel team wins

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#42 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump, anyone else?

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#43 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Any more thoughts?

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#44 Edited by phoenixdiamond616 (1680 posts) - - Show Bio

R1 Elektra and Widow. Even tho Dinah could handle and defeat Nat with mid difficulty, Elektra is too skilled for Katana (they're actually close in speed are, but Elektra in this case has two weaponry... if she had a katana as well, Katana might barely have an upper hand)... even if the game changes, Elektra with her sais is very dangerous for Dinah to surpass (H2H would be closer but Elektra might end up winning at the end after a long and hard fight)... tho Katana could defeat Nat (thanks to weaponry)...

R2 Dinah could potentially solo

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#46 Posted by Arcus1 (27753 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5c321f49ae6ea (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Team marvel just because Elektra is the MVP and katana is the weak link