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#1 Edited by XiiX (13583 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Edited by Kazuma_Bushi (1130 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Alice looses. She could use the Spectre's powers, but is the Spectre's power beyond RKT and Galactus? Probably not

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#3 Posted by ManInTheMountain (1706 posts) - - Show Bio

@kazuma_bushi: if she can use 100% of Spectre's power, she easily wins. Galan and RKT is leagues below Spectre

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#4 Edited by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Alice looses. She could use the Spectre's powers, but is the Spectre's power beyond RKT and Galactus? Probably not

Spectre is beyond those two. The issue would be her limited control over those powers. I don't have confidence in Alice to hold the power for a long enough period of time, and wield it with enough finesse, to defeat the both of them before she eventually gets worn out and squished.

A much better bet for her would be to absorb Rune King Thor's powers (which she could easily do, she could even take Mjolnir). She could then squish the powerless Thor and use his powers to fight Galactus.

She wins either way.

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#5 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

Has BA shown any sort of control or expertise with Spectre's abilities - what are her feats with such power?

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#6 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

Has BA shown any sort of control or expertise with Spectre's abilities - what are her feats with such power?

She never used it. She got it, then Spectre disappeared (since he is a formless powerset, and without his power he was just a shade) so she never really used the powers at all (nobody to use them on). Still, as I posted above, she doesn't have to go full-Spectre-mode to beat this team. Thor is a non-factor instantly, then she can find a way to beat Galan.

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#7 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

Has BA shown any sort of control or expertise with Spectre's abilities - what are her feats with such power?

She never used it. She got it, then Spectre disappeared (since he is a formless powerset, and without his power he was just a shade) so she never really used the powers at all (nobody to use them on). Still, as I posted above, she doesn't have to go full-Spectre-mode to beat this team. Thor is a non-factor instantly, then she can find a way to beat Galan.

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

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#8 Posted by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if you entertain the idea that Black Alice can take Thor's power, which I don't because DOV spectre did nothing to put him on Odins level, she still can't harm galactus.

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#9 Edited by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if you entertain the idea that Black Alice can take Thor's power, which I don't because DOV spectre did nothing to put him on Odins level, she still can't harm galactus.

DOV Spectre fought against and defeated the combined magical power of everyone in the entire DCU. O_o

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#10 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

Has BA shown any sort of control or expertise with Spectre's abilities - what are her feats with such power?

She never used it. She got it, then Spectre disappeared (since he is a formless powerset, and without his power he was just a shade) so she never really used the powers at all (nobody to use them on). Still, as I posted above, she doesn't have to go full-Spectre-mode to beat this team. Thor is a non-factor instantly, then she can find a way to beat Galan.

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

Unlikely. Cheetah didn't blitz her. Also I don't think Thor's first move would be to obliterate a powerless teen girl.

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#11 Edited by ms__omega (5269 posts) - - Show Bio

When she took The Spectres power in Day of Vengeance she stated that it was too much and had to let it go before she got a chance to even use it.

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#12 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

When she took The Spectres power in Day of Vengeance she stated that it was too much and had to let it go before she got a chance to even use it.

She later stated that she was pretty sure she was ready to do it again.

But still, she doesn't need to use Spectre here I don't think.

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#13 Posted by Kazuma_Bushi (1130 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@kazuma_bushi said:

Black Alice looses. She could use the Spectre's powers, but is the Spectre's power beyond RKT and Galactus? Probably not

Spectre is beyond those two. The issue would be her limited control over those powers. I don't have confidence in Alice to hold the power for a long enough period of time, and wield it with enough finesse, to defeat the both of them before she eventually gets worn out and squished.

A much better bet for her would be to absorb Rune King Thor's powers (which she could easily do, she could even take Mjolnir). She could then squish the powerless Thor and use his powers to fight Galactus.

She wins either way.

Idk....I've seen arguments made for Galactus being able to beat a non-backed Spectre. But I never considered the Thor thing.

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#14 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

The fun thing about using Alice in battles is that she often seems to utilize power-sets more ruthlessly than their progenitors. Her first instinct is "hit them with ALL OF IT." So if she took RKT's powers she wouldn't job with it, she'd use all of it straight away.

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#15 Posted by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

Even if you entertain the idea that Black Alice can take Thor's power, which I don't because DOV spectre did nothing to put him on Odins level, she still can't harm galactus.

DOV Spectre fought against and defeated the combined magical power of everyone in the entire DCU. O_o

None of who were equal to Odin. In fact, the Shazam that fought him for many pages was severly weakened by Mordru eariler.

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#16 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

Even if you entertain the idea that Black Alice can take Thor's power, which I don't because DOV spectre did nothing to put him on Odins level, she still can't harm galactus.

DOV Spectre fought against and defeated the combined magical power of everyone in the entire DCU. O_o

None of who were equal to Odin. In fact, the Shazam that fought him for many pages was severly weakened by Mordru eariler.

Shazam had home turf advantage, piles and piles of magical artifacts to use, created a cataclysm with the battle, and still died.

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#17 Posted by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

Even if you entertain the idea that Black Alice can take Thor's power, which I don't because DOV spectre did nothing to put him on Odins level, she still can't harm galactus.

DOV Spectre fought against and defeated the combined magical power of everyone in the entire DCU. O_o

None of who were equal to Odin. In fact, the Shazam that fought him for many pages was severly weakened by Mordru eariler.

Shazam had home turf advantage, piles and piles of magical artifacts to use, created a cataclysm with the battle, and still died.

...Because Mordru forced him to use up all that power before Spectre even got there. Honestly, I haven't seen much proof Spectre was even above Mordru at that point.

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#18 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Maybe because he fought Captain Marvel amped with all the magical power of the entire DCU and was whipping his ass.

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#19 Edited by Chain_Smoker (11 posts) - - Show Bio

BA is not absorbing Thor or using Mjilnor, that's just silly. Show me feats equivalent to this under BA's belt. Than we can talk, but if this is all a theory... it should not be used to support someone's case for a character.

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#20 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

BA is not absorbing Thor or using Mjilnor, that's just silly. Show me feats equivalent to this under BA's belt. Than we can talk, but if this is all a theory... it should not be used to support someone's case for a character.

Why shouldn't she be able to use Mjolnir? She's used Alan Scott's ring. She's used Blue Devil's trident. She's used Dr. Occult's disc. She absorbed Etrigan's power, Felix Faust's power, Cheetah's power, Zatanna's power, Captain Marvel's power, Spectre's power, and a million powers in between. Thor is just not that scary in comparison to the things she's already taken on.

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#21 Posted by Chain_Smoker (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl:

One reason. None of those are the same as the Runes, or Mljinor. Why I ask for a scan equivalent to replicating such a claim under DC's terms. All those powers she absorbed and used Alan Scott's Ring and Blue Devil's Trident or Occult's disc do not share the same requirements as Mjilnor or the Runes. To simply say she can because of what she has shown to do to other characters is just another ABC logic that's comparible to an argument of someone saying, Character A can beat character B because of the enemies they beat.

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#22 Edited by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser: Maybe because he fought Captain Marvel amped with all the magical power of the entire DCU and was whipping his ass.

I thought most of the magic was destroyed at that point. Anyway, even if she does drain Thor she still wouldn't be able to stop herself from getting stomped by Galactus.

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#23 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@chain_smoker:

...No.

Those items do have requirements. Any old random person can't just take Alan Scott's ring and use it like he can. Black Alice replicates one of her own, a special ring that she uses. Zatanna's abilities require special training that required a lifetime of hands-on tutoring yet Black Alice can still use them perfectly.

If you have magic-based powers, either naturally, from an item, or from an external source, she can take them. Thor has powers that stem from magical items. Hence she can take them. Simple as that. If she can replicate and use Dr. Fate's helmet then she can use Mjolnir. Period.

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#24 Posted by dagmar_merrill (12701 posts) - - Show Bio

Joygirl is owning this.

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#25 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser: Maybe because he fought Captain Marvel amped with all the magical power of the entire DCU and was whipping his ass.

I thought most of the magic was destroyed at that point. Anyway, even if she does drain Thor she still wouldn't be able to stop herself from getting stomped by Galactus.

Nope, almost none of it was destroyed. They showed several of the characters being drawn, even if it was ONLY the characters shown, their combined powers would be absurdly massive (it included the Starheart, I remember that).

I thought RKT was at Odin level or above? With those powers she should be able to take a good fight to Galactus. Or it'll at least buy her enough time to wipe out depowered Thor and switch to Spectre's powerset to handle Galactus one-on-one with.

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#26 Posted by Chain_Smoker (11 posts) - - Show Bio

BA is not Spectre. Spectre shouldn't even be in this conversation. BA, even with some of Spectre's powers, has her own feats that should be used, not Spectre's. Does BA have any durability showings or combat reflex showings to save her from a hammer throw or getting blitzed by Thor?

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#27 Edited by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@chain_smoker said:

BA is not Spectre. Spectre shouldn't even be in this conversation. BA, even with some of Spectre's powers, has her own feats that should be used, not Spectre's. Does BA have any durability showings or combat reflex showings to save her from a hammer throw or getting blitzed by Thor?

Spectre should absolutely be used in this conversation. Black Alice doesn't have powers, she takes other people's powers. Thus, those powers are what her abilities must be based off of (especially since she always overkills, so doesn't really have feats against people of similar power levels).

She does have reflex showings, as she takes powers instantaneously and was able to drain Cheetah before she could react. She doesn't have to worry about durability because this is in-character and Thor isn't going to open with a hammer-toss to a powerless teenaged girl.

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#29 Posted by Chain_Smoker (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl:

Again. Not the same. None of those are Mjilnor. It's not enough to say "She used Fate's Helmet, she can use Mjilnor". That's ridiculous. We have no idea where her limitations are or how far she can go. Until I see an item with the same restrictions as Mljinor and her using that item. I don't see her using the hammer especially with Thor in use of it. The hammer even has a portion of Thor's soul when it had to been repaired by Strange, last I remember.

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#30 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gold, pure gold.

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#31 Edited by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser: Maybe because he fought Captain Marvel amped with all the magical power of the entire DCU and was whipping his ass.

I thought most of the magic was destroyed at that point. Anyway, even if she does drain Thor she still wouldn't be able to stop herself from getting stomped by Galactus.

Nope, almost none of it was destroyed. They showed several of the characters being drawn, even if it was ONLY the characters shown, their combined powers would be absurdly massive (it included the Starheart, I remember that).

I thought RKT was at Odin level or above? With those powers she should be able to take a good fight to Galactus. Or it'll at least buy her enough time to wipe out depowered Thor and switch to Spectre's powerset to handle Galactus one-on-one with.

Okay. Maybe she can take Thors power.

RKT is Odins equal and the only evidence he's slightly above is a bio. Galactus pwnd Odin when they fought, Dr. Doom with the powers of Galactus easily beat Odin, and Galan easily killed a celestial which were>Odin. Even with Thor's powers she's outmatched.

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#32 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

Well its not like either Galactus or RKT is known for blitzing.

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#33 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@chain_smoker: Ugh. Your argument is silly. It's like saying "Superman can push a planet forward, but we never saw him pull it backwards, so he can't." And it doesn't matter how much you use words like "ridiculous," it's still completely plausible under absolutely all evidence that she could replicate Mjolnir. Alice doesn't care about whether it not it has your soul in it, she drained Spectre of his entire being, and it's safe to assume that she did the same thing to Etrigan when she drained him. She's absorbed Wonder Woman's lasso of truth and a Green Lantern's ring. She can drain Thor.

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#34 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay. Maybe she can take Thors power.

RKT is Odins equal and the only evidence he's slightly above is a bio. Galactus pwnd Odin when they fought, Dr. Doom with the powers of Galactus easily beat Odin, and Galan easily killed a celestial which were>Odin. Even with Thor's powers she's outmatched.

Then she vaporizes Thor, absorbs Spectre's power (hey, how about she absorbs Spectre's power too? Yeah, she can use two powersets simultaneously) and then fights Galactus with their powers combined.

Alice is too powerful and too versatile, and in-character she has absolutely no qualms about doing whatever she deems necessary to overkill whoever she's up against. She'll switch powersets, add more on, and use whatever abilities she sees fit to do the most damage.

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#35 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

Well its not like either Galactus or RKT is known for blitzing.

I honestly don't know much about either - just that Galactus is in an incredibly high tier & is usually [ I think ] beaten via plot devices created by someone by Doctor Doom or Reed Richards & that RKT is superior to Thor but I don't exactly know how.

I just figured they'd at least be faster than a normal human girl.

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#36 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: I cant say about Thor, but while travel wise Galactus can transverse space and time, i really see no reason for him to be faster than even a normal human girl.

But even if they were faster, its not in character for either to blitz. Beings at this level dont really blitz at all.

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#37 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

Well its not like either Galactus or RKT is known for blitzing.

I honestly don't know much about either - just that Galactus is in an incredibly high tier & is usually [ I think ] beaten via plot devices created by someone by Doctor Doom or Reed Richards & that RKT is superior to Thor but I don't exactly know how.

I just figured they'd at least be faster than a normal human girl.

Galactus is slow and stupid and Lori can power-rape at the speed of thought... and as I said, Thor won't open by splattering her. He could, but this is in-character, so he's not gonna use lethal force before she acquires a power set. Which, hilariously, will be his.

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#38 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: I cant say about Thor, but while travel wise Galactus can transverse space and time, i really see no reason for him to be faster than even a normal human girl.

But even if they were faster, its not in character for either to blitz. Beings at this level dont really blitz at all.

Eh - I'm not really routing for either side here as I honestly don't have enough knowledge on these characters to create a truly "solid" argument. I was just seeing what Joy had to say about her considering I'm going up against Black Alice being represented by Joygirl in Luke's tournament hahaha

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#39 Posted by Sy8000 (35067 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

Okay. Maybe she can take Thors power.

RKT is Odins equal and the only evidence he's slightly above is a bio. Galactus pwnd Odin when they fought, Dr. Doom with the powers of Galactus easily beat Odin, and Galan easily killed a celestial which were>Odin. Even with Thor's powers she's outmatched.

Then she vaporizes Thor, absorbs Spectre's power (hey, how about she absorbs Spectre's power too? Yeah, she can use two powersets simultaneously) and then fights Galactus with their powers combined.

Alice is too powerful and too versatile, and in-character she has absolutely no qualms about doing whatever she deems necessary to overkill whoever she's up against. She'll switch powersets, add more on, and use whatever abilities she sees fit to do the most damage.

I've never seen Alice use 2 powers at once. Also, why do you think she can hold onto Thors power? Holding onto spectres was hell for her and she said she'd never be able to do so again for more than a second. I don't see her using Spectres powers here, nor could they really harm galactus. No one who's powers she can take can put a dent in galactus.

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#40 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

@killemall said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

Couldn't she get blitzed before she has the chance to absorb anyone's powers?

Well its not like either Galactus or RKT is known for blitzing.

I honestly don't know much about either - just that Galactus is in an incredibly high tier & is usually [ I think ] beaten via plot devices created by someone by Doctor Doom or Reed Richards & that RKT is superior to Thor but I don't exactly know how.

I just figured they'd at least be faster than a normal human girl.

Galactus is slow and stupid and Lori can power-rape at the speed of thought... and as I said, Thor won't open by splattering her. He could, but this is in-character, so he's not gonna use lethal force before she acquires a power set. Which, hilariously, will be his.

Good thing my team in Luke's tournament is neither stupid NOR slow!

I'm just testing the waters to see how you'll use Alice :)

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#41 Edited by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@highaccuser said:

Okay. Maybe she can take Thors power.

RKT is Odins equal and the only evidence he's slightly above is a bio. Galactus pwnd Odin when they fought, Dr. Doom with the powers of Galactus easily beat Odin, and Galan easily killed a celestial which were>Odin. Even with Thor's powers she's outmatched.

Then she vaporizes Thor, absorbs Spectre's power (hey, how about she absorbs Spectre's power too? Yeah, she can use two powersets simultaneously) and then fights Galactus with their powers combined.

Alice is too powerful and too versatile, and in-character she has absolutely no qualms about doing whatever she deems necessary to overkill whoever she's up against. She'll switch powersets, add more on, and use whatever abilities she sees fit to do the most damage.

I've never seen Alice use 2 powers at once. Also, why do you think she can hold onto Thors power? Holding onto spectres was hell for her and she said she'd never be able to do so again for more than a second. I don't see her using Spectres powers here, nor could they really harm galactus. No one who's powers she can take can put a dent in galactus.

Alice insta-draining Cheetah and Felix Faust simultaneously
Alice insta-draining Cheetah and Felix Faust simultaneously

She held onto Etrigan's power for as long as she liked. Common consensus on the 'vine is that Etrigan > Thor. She also held onto Dr. Fate's power for a good long while.

I don't see why you don't think Spectre's powers can hurt Galactus (unless you secretly do, and are just being stubborn) but in any event I'm bowing out for now. @thetruebarryallen: is watching and he's going up against Lori and I shortly so I don't want him getting too many ideas.

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#42 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Meh, got battlefield prep so she can begin combat with a power-set. :P

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#43 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thetruebarryallen: Meh, got battlefield prep so she can begin combat with a power-set. :P

Hahaha - didn't mean to make you stop debating in this thread. I've got loads of Cyborg Superman debates that I've already assumed you've looked through - same goes for Despero.

Anyways - I'LL BE SEEING BLACK ALICE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

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#44 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thetruebarryallen: Meh, got battlefield prep so she can begin combat with a power-set. :P

Hahaha - didn't mean to make you stop debating in this thread. I've got loads of Cyborg Superman debates that I've already assumed you've looked through - same goes for Despero.

Anyways - I'LL BE SEEING BLACK ALICE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

I have to run in a second anyway, I was just using you as an excuse. :P

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#45 Posted by NimaMindTricks (4684 posts) - - Show Bio

Alice is inconsistent. She even admits to that. Just because she's pissed, doesn't mean she'll make the right move. So what if she chooses Etrigan? Etrigan could not take RKT and Galactus on his own. RKT and Galactus slaughter her.

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#46 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@nimamindtricks: She won't choose Etrigan. She'll choose Thor because he's right in front of her.

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#47 Posted by NimaMindTricks (4684 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl: That's an IF she does that. She is inconsistent and how long she can hold the power, is limited and unpredictable. You're placing a lot that she'll

A) Select RKT to absorb

B) Know how to use his power's to their full extent

C) Have the powers long enough to slay Galactus, who we assume isn't "starving" in this scenario. -- which is highly, highly debatable.

Also...IDK much about RKT...but can't Odin sense a disturbance or transfer of power in the Odinforce or Mjolnir, so he would just zap the powers back out of Alice?

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#48 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@nimamindtricks: Alice always drains whoever's closest to her. If you can point to a SINGLE instance that she drained someone else when a magic-based character was nearby, we can talk. She always uses powers to their fullest extent unless they're very complex -- then, it takes her time to figure them out. As for her beating Galactus with Thor's powers, it's debatable, but she can certainly survive long enough to kill Thor and switch to another power set. If Odin tries to do anything then Alice can just drain him too. There's only one X-Factor in this battle -- whether there's a magical entity strong enough to destroy Galactus. I'm pretty certain that there is. In fact, I'll say she could absorb Etrigan and Blue Devil simultaneously and pull it off (Etrigan stated that with the Trident of Lucifer he could rule hell easily).

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#49 Posted by NimaMindTricks (4684 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl: Ok...she absorbed Giganta instead of the two, not one, but two Suicide Squad members who were magic-based and located right inside Blackgate. Can't remember who their names were.

Again, you're not addressing her admission to being inconsistent. She was asked "Why don't you just summon Spectre's powers all the time?" and she said something like "it just comes and goes."

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#50 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

@nimamindtricks: She absorbed Giganta before going there. The other characters were not in sight. When they DID show up, she dropped Giganta and used Nightshade's powers instead, since she was right there. Your own example just bit you in the ass. As for Alice's own admission -- Alice is both not that bright and oftened written inconsistently. While she may have said "it comes and goes," she said at another time that she was ready to use Spectre again whenever she wanted. Alice has never had issues using the same characters again and again or tapping into too large of powers. She's used both Dr. Fate and the Starheart like three times a piece.