Cant really win a brawling match up against Hulk, unless you are just way stronger or bring something special to the table, Bill does neither.
And i see some people are still under the mistaken impression that Bill is a planet buster in the same vein as WBH is, this couldn't be further from the truth. In fact Bill needed Skuttlebut to use Voidians armory to bust a planetoid, much smaller than even our Moon.
The planetoid was small enough you can actually see Galactus while viewing the entire curviture of the thing.
Although much, much larger than the planetoid small enough for Bill to bust under the exact same circumstances
This planetoid was so tiny, you could see BRB and Stardust entire fire trail hit the planetoid and from it the planetoid looks basically the size of a building in comparison.
@kevd4wg: If you have any evidence and i do mean ANY evidence to support that it's anything larger than what my literal eyes are telling me I am all ears and would gladly accept Bill being an actual planet buster if he truly was that.
Until then the trail that the 2 of them leave as they crash into the planet is much too large in comparison to the planetoid
So I dunno why you are upset with me when this whole time the ONLY reason you accept that this is some kind of planet is because you WANT it to be, not because it's actually backed up by anything in the comic that it's any kind of regular sized planet.
I know everyone likes to think that every celestial object that goes BOOM in space is just another copy paste of Earth, but sometimes that's just not the case
@intothevoid: I mean, the only one of those that I agree with is Hulk having a much better healing factor, since Bill has none, though I might be persuaded on strength. The main thing is that this version of Hulk was immediately turned back into Banner by the residual energy from Thor's storm, which I'm sure Bill can replicate. Sure, that attack KOed Thor as well, but Bill has no reason to have himself be hit by the attack, so he can just channel all his firepower at Hulk.
@blackspidey2099: You can agree or not all you want, it doesn't change things. Hulk is actually MUCH stronger than Bill, the Indestructible Hulk incarnation happens to have some of the best strength feats of any Hulk incarnation with repelling Exitar, holding the weight of a star and was stated to be stronger than Hyperion by the same writer who gave Hyperion 2 of his best strength feats, while Bill best strength feat is holding Asgard together with Thor. The residual energy of Thor knocked Thor out as well, so are you hoping Bill goes for a double KO? The reason the attack KO'd Thor is because it took too much out of him, not because he hit himself with the attack, he used the attack on the surrounding area, not on himself. How about the fact that this version of Hulk actually one-shot Thor in Hickmans Avengers run? Bill was KO'd by Thor from Thor just punching with his fists(Thor was KO'd as well since Bill also punched him), but Hulk hits a lot harder with his fists than Thor does.
@intothevoid: honestly at no point before you see the fire trail impact the planet do you see the full width of the trail. Given that you don’t see beta ray bill or stardust when the streak impacts the planet it’s clearly larger than its seen in the first few panels. Imo since you can never see he full width of the trail or how large the the very tip was in comparison to the planet, and the fact that the authors intention was clearly to have this be a planet.
@intothevoid: honestly at no point before you see the fire trail impact the planet do you see the full width of the trail. Given that you don’t see beta ray bill or stardust when the streak impacts the planet it’s clearly larger than its seen in the first few panels. Imo since you can never see he full width of the trail or how large the the very tip was in comparison to the planet, and the fact that the authors intention was clearly to have this be a planet.
I am not sure what you are talking about but we can see it just fine in the pictures above and it's just big enough to have the both of them inside the trail. Unless you are telling me that for some reason the trail grows exponentially to a size of a country in it's width because only then would the planetoid be the size of Earth or something. I read the entire comic and the series and nowhere in the comic does it refer to it as a planet or anything, it was just a completely random celestial object the 2 of the crashed into and people reading it assumed it must be a planet. Also just calling something a planet tells us nothing about it's size, the one planetoid that Bill couldn't bust without Skuttlebut using Viodians armory is still small enough were you can see Galactus on the surface of it and still see the curvature of the planet.
I have said this before and i will say it again, people are way too quick and easy to judge every celestial object blown in space as being a planet the size of Earth or something, solely because it makes them feel good. I will tell people right now, blowing up planets is not a joke, characters that can blow up planets in 1 hit start off around Surfer/WBH levels. Bill, Clark, Thor, Hulk are not planet busters.
@intothevoid: honestly at no point before you see the fire trail impact the planet do you see the full width of the trail. Given that you don’t see beta ray bill or stardust when the streak impacts the planet it’s clearly larger than its seen in the first few panels. Imo since you can never see he full width of the trail or how large the the very tip was in comparison to the planet, and the fact that the authors intention was clearly to have this be a planet.
Yeah Phillip summed it up pretty well. The fire trail was literally coming out of a planet sized energy ball and we never see either the energy trail or the planet fully compared to Bill and Stardust themselves. Furthermore, you can see the energy trail increases in size at a much greater size in comparison to Bill and Stardust then it does to the planet.
I mean, this is pretty much established as a planet when just 2 years later in Bill's next real appearance he confirms he's shattered Planets with Stormbreaker in Omega Flight #5
In all honesty I think it's pretty obvious and straight forward. It takes some mental gymnastics to say it's not. As for the whole thing in Godhunter, there's two things to say to that,
Bill can't just casually smack a planet and blow it up, he bullrushed
Bill was planning on doing this to multiple planets while fighting heralds of Galactus, if you could use your ship wouldn't you?
@intothevoid: I mean, as far as I'm aware, the entire point of this site is to have debates. If you don't care whether I agree or not, then why did you engage me in the first place? Anyways, moving on...
Hulk is actually MUCH stronger than Bill, the Indestructible Hulk incarnation happens to have some of the best strength feats of any Hulk incarnation with repelling Exitar,
There's some issues with this feat, but first and foremost - why is it impressive? Do Celestials weigh a lot? We know for sure that Exitar wasn't exerting himself, or he could have just wiped out the planet with a thought.
holding the weight of a star and was stated to be stronger than Hyperion by the same writer who gave Hyperion 2 of his best strength feats,
Hulk and star level should never be mentioned in the same sentence, without massive PIS. Literally the smallest possible star is still 80 times the size of Jupiter, which itself is over 300 times the size of Earth. A more average (and yet still very small) star like the Sun weighs over a thousand times what Jupiter does (and 300,000 times the mass of the Earth). Bringing up Hyperion's feat (pushing aside two planets of the same size as Earth) to support it being consistent is like me bringing up Spider-Man lifting a small sized SUV to say that Spider-Man supporting an entire skyscraper is consistent. The two feats are on a completely different magnitude, to the point that the Hyperion feat is not relevant in whatsoever. If you truly believed Hulk was consistently that strong, you wouldn't bother bringing up some sketchy strength statement which wasn't supported by feats in any way and a similarly sketchy feat from a completely alternate timeline.
while Bill best strength feat is holding Asgard together with Thor.
That's probably his best quantifiable one, but I do think scaling him to Thor is fair given all the times he's been said or been shown to be a direct equal to Thor.
The residual energy of Thor knocked Thor out as well, so are you hoping Bill goes for a double KO?
The residual energy did not KO Thor, it was the actual main force of the attack, which had been centered on him. Bill won't be centering the attack on his own body, he will be directing at Hulk.
The reason the attack KO'd Thor is because it took too much out of him, not because he hit himself with the attack, he used the attack on the surrounding area, not on himself.
Is there any proof of this? Looking at the fight, that just seems to be headcanon. Thor's own lightning has hurt/KOed himself in the past when it hit him, so it seems more plausible that the sheer power of the lightning is what knocked him out.
Anyways, even if he did get KOed for whatever reason, it shouldn't be an issue since Thor recovered notably before Banner did, meaning he could have finished the battle while Banner was laying unconscious, had they been fighting each other.
How about the fact that his version of Hulk actually one-shot Thor in Hickmans Avengers run?
Yeah, with a sucker punch to the back of the head while Thor was actually fighting bad guys. Not very impressive, and certainly not applicable to direct combat.
Bill was KO'd by Thor from Thor just punching with his fists(Thor was KO'd as well since Bill also punched him), but Hulk hits a lot harder with his fists than Thor does.
Do you mean this instance from Thor #339? Because you seem to forget that they had been fighting for multiple pages beforehand on panel, as well as an undisclosed period of time off panel too. We have no idea how long the fight actually went on for...
@intothevoid: honestly at no point before you see the fire trail impact the planet do you see the full width of the trail. Given that you don’t see beta ray bill or stardust when the streak impacts the planet it’s clearly larger than its seen in the first few panels. Imo since you can never see he full width of the trail or how large the the very tip was in comparison to the planet, and the fact that the authors intention was clearly to have this be a planet.
Yeah Phillip summed it up pretty well. The fire trail was literally coming out of a planet sized energy ball and we never see either the energy trail or the planet fully compared to Bill and Stardust themselves. Furthermore, you can see the energy trail increases in size at a much greater size in comparison to Bill and Stardust then it does to the planet.
I mean, this is pretty much established as a planet when just 2 years later in Bill's next real appearance he confirms he's shattered Planets with Stormbreaker in Omega Flight #5
In all honesty I think it's pretty obvious and straight forward. It takes some mental gymnastics to say it's not. As for the whole thing in Godhunter, there's two things to say to that,
Bill can't just casually smack a planet and blow it up, he bullrushed
Bill was planning on doing this to multiple planets while fighting heralds of Galactus, if you could use your ship wouldn't you?
It wasn't much of a summation as it was a deflection, by his view on this we don't know how large the trail of fire grew to be. Ok, fine. So lets just assume it grew to the size of a country, despite the fact that it's impossible? Because that would be the only thing to justify this being a regular planet.
I don't see the trail increase in size to be much greater than Bill or Stardust, first off the trail is closer to us the readers as they move through space which gives you the illusion that something is larger, rather than it actually being so. The most basic optical illusion
This bridge appears the widest the closest it is to the camera and as it goes further away it appears smaller and smaller despite the fact that the bridge is the same size throughout.
Again a statement, do i really need to pull out all the times characters have made nonsense statements? Bill doesn't refer to any specific event there, just that he shattered planets, he also said he broke Moons with his bare hands despite us never seeing this, nor how big those Moons/planets were if it indeed had happened.
To me it takes some amazing mental gymnastics and if i am gonna be honest even some dishonesty to treat a random celestial object as a planet based on literally no single shred of evidence, NOTHING. And when we try to determine it's size the trail of fire leading up to it leaves a lot left to be desired.
1. Obviously not but he wouldn't be able to do it with a bullrush either as he already bulrushed Stardust in another small planetoid and it did nothing outside cause a small crater
2. Yea and Leader was planning of conquering the Galaxy using Hulks power... we all want quite a lot that's out of our reach. Personally if i was able to bust planets with my own power i would do it and save the ship for an emergency or as a fail safe and not waste in the first planet i drop on.
@blackspidey2099: I mean, as far as I'm aware, the entire point of this site is to have debates. If you don't care whether I agree or not, then why did you engage me in the first place? Anyways, moving on...
That's not the point i was making, we can agree on disagree on a lot of things, but if you ignore actual facts then it's irrelevant which is my point and the fact is Hulk is a lot stronger than Bill.
There's some issues with this feat, but first and foremost - why is it impressive? Do Celestials weigh a lot? We know for sure that Exitar wasn't exerting himself, or he could have just wiped out the planet with a thought.
Well for starters he was roughly the size of Earth
Secondly he was pushing with enough force to destroy said Earth
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So yea, those are at least planetary level forces in question there.
Finally yes i agree with you completely, that was a massive plot hole since all Exitar had to do was snap his fingers and the Earth goes boom, but the writer wanted him to use his foot to stomp on the planet to destroy it, this doesn't take away from Hulks feat, just bad writing to have Hulk and Doom and everyone else prolong Exitar as long as possible when all he had to do was wish for Earth to explode and it would have happened.
Hulk and star level should never be mentioned in the same sentence, without massive PIS. Literally the smallest possible star is still 80 times the size of Jupiter, which itself is over 300 times the size of Earth. A more average (and yet still very small) star like the Sun weighs over a thousand times what Jupiter does (and 300,000 times the mass of the Earth). Bringing up Hyperion's feat (pushing aside two planets of the same size as Earth) to support it being consistent is like me bringing up Spider-Man lifting a small sized SUV to say that Spider-Man supporting an entire skyscraper is consistent. The two feats are on a completely different magnitude, to the point that the Hyperion feat is not relevant in whatsoever. If you truly believed Hulk was consistently that strong, you wouldn't bother bringing up some sketchy strength statement which wasn't supported by feats in any way and a similarly sketchy feat from a completely alternate timeline.
Why so? Because you said it? Why are you comparing comic to our real life? The smallest known star to us is the one you mention, which has nothing to do with the comics that have literally made up stars that have been so small they can fit in the palm of your hand. All we know is that the star had enough weight in it to hold Hulk in place while he was on all fours. It was meant to represent weight big enough to hold someone like him down, especially since Hickman had no problems with giving characters physically weaker than Hulk planetary+ strength. It was actually consistent under Hickman which was my entire point. Under Hickman Hyperion held off 2 planets from colliding and on another occasion almost stopped completely a planet the size of Earth going at 500 000 mph. Because the incarnation we are using is Indestructible Hulk, i could bring up other versions or even bring up Mad Thinker saying this particular Hulks strength is incalculable or i could bring up Hulk forcing Order(In-betweener) to waste most of his power trying to hold Hulk in place or i could bring up Hulk pushing a Moon sized ship across the space. Or do you have a problem with those things as well? I have yet to see Bills strength feats btw that would make you question if Hulk was truly stronger than him.
That's probably his best quantifiable one, but I do think scaling him to Thor is fair given all the times he's been said or been shown to be a direct equal to Thor.
And yet it pales in comparison to Hulk and we can scale him to be equal to Thor i don't mind because Thor is nowhere near as strong as modern Hulk anyway, so it still doesn't change anything.
The residual energy did not KO Thor, it was the actual main force of the attack, which had been centered on him. Bill won't be centering the attack on his own body, he will be directing at Hulk.
The main force of the attack was not directed at Thor, Thor did not attack himself what is with you? The attack was not CENTERED on him it was going FROM him to the rest of the land itself
Thor literally exhausted himself from the power he was using, he didn't hit himself with his own power lol.
Is there any proof of this? Looking at the fight, that just seems to be headcanon. Thor's own lightning has hurt/KOed himself in the past when it hit him, so it seems more plausible that the sheer power of the lightning is what knocked him out.
What's your proof that it KO'd him? Why would he hit himself with his own lightning? I have o idea why you assume Thor used an AOE attack and also directed a part of it at himself, it makes no sense.
Anyways, even if he did get KOed for whatever reason, it shouldn't be an issue since Thor recovered notably before Banner did, meaning he could have finished the battle while Banner was laying unconscious, had they been fighting each other.
Yea because Hulk turned to Banner after he got KO'd, so of course Thor would wake up quicker, they still both got KO'd i am not sure what it matters who woke up quicker. They weren't fighting there... Hulk was trying to catch Thor from falling and was caught by surprise from an energy he was not expecting why are you treating it like it was a match between them?
Yeah, with a sucker punch to the back of the head while Thor was actually fighting bad guys. Not very impressive, and certainly not applicable to direct combat.
It wasn't a sucker punch to the back of the head, Hulk ran at him while being in front of him, not from behind him
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I actually would agree that this isn't all that applicable in combat since i don't like surprise attacks all that much, but it's interesting to me that Hulk getting KO'd by energy when he wasn't expecting it and was just trying to catch Thor is somehow perfectly applicable in combat, in fact you even treated as if they were having a match there.
Do you mean this instance from Thor #339? Because you seem to forget that they had been fighting for multiple pages beforehand on panel, as well as an undisclosed period of time off panel too. We have no idea how long the fight actually went on for...
Yes they fought for multiple pages and knocked each other with their fists in the end. However long it went to, it still ended how it did and Hulk and Thor have fought for over an hour on at least 2 different occasions and i don't remember Thor KOing Hulk ever with his fists in the end.
If you think that i am maybe suggesting this fight is gonna be easy or short, then no. It's gonna be a long and brutal fight and Hulk is more likely than not, going to be the one to KO Bill before vice-versa happens.
@intothevoid: @kevd4wg:The problems with the instance lies in these particular panels.
The start of it was still the size of Beta Ray Bill and Stardust even though they were much closer to the allegedly assumed "planet", and given the fact the trail itself isn't that much larger than them, I see no reason to believe it was getting "bigger". This also goes against the fact the trail started as a giant ball of energy that looked much bigger than the supposed "planets" even though the panel is clearly taken from a much farther perspective, which would imply the complete opposite of what you're stating, which is the trail was indeed getting smaller, ultimately show it isn't that much smaller than the "planet" they clashed with.
Even if we go by the "trail" argument, did you see what happens after they bust the allegedly assumed planet? Beta Ray Bill tosses his hammer and the trail it leaves is clearly the size of the hammer itself, the hammer goes and circumnavigates another "planet or moon" 3 times before returning to the fight and you can clearly see the trail itself is not small enough to assume this stellar body was "planet sized or moon sized object" considering the size of Stormbreaker.
Before the same argument gets pulled up, the hammer's trail clearly stood the same from the moment Bill tosses the hammer and the moment the hammer returns to the fight as it is painfully visible in previous panels. It didn't magically increase its size when going around the planet and then got smaller once again.
This is a composite image of two cropped panels for the sake of saving space. No context was altered besides sequence of events.
Considering the fact you can clearly see the other "planets and moons" laying around and having a significantly comparable size to the "planet" both Beta Ray Bill and Stardust landed on, I see no reason to believe the big spherical rock they busted is an actual planet but instead, the size of a rather big house.
I see no reason to believe the big spherical rock they busted is an actual planet but instead, the size of a rather big house.
Like i said honestly, the celestial object from the best way i can judge it, appears to be the size of a building. And not even the big skyscraper ones.
Eh, I dont really trust artists to draw objects (especially celestial bodies) to scale accurately. I mean, I really doubt they intended those planets or planetoids to only be as big as a building.
@brucerogers: Hulk was pretty inconsistent in Waid’s run both in terms of personality and power (Waid himself admitted that he was struggling to even find a voice that he liked for Hulk). He explained that by having the chronarchists screw with Hulks history which meant that sometimes he was cruel and psychotic, other times more friendly and vocal which in turn obviously effects his power level.
Hulk was the most friendly and vocal with Thor than any other part of Waid’s run IIRC. Logically that makes sense regardless because Hulk has taken god knows how much lightning from Thor and tanked it even with intent to kill, so a young, arrogant and far more inexperienced Thor KOing him with >residual energy< is obviously not legit.
@aqualion0: Writer of issue already implied that Bill is planet buster.
Oh did he? Oh man that changes EVERYTHING. Except not really, let me explain a few things to you since your are still new and naive here. Writers say a lot of stuff on twitter and in interviews, that doesn't mean we should take much of it seriously. Dan Jurgens has famously said that Odin is only planetary in level.
Paul Jenkins has said that Sentry is a reality warper
Then he said that he is a molecule manipulator
then when he got called out on it, he basically said he was trying appease both sides, as in he was just giving people what they wanted to hear
Hell he has even said that Sentry can manipulate time
Are you beginning to catch the point i am making? If not let me give you a few more examples.
People are familiar that OF Thor was meant to fight WWH at the end of the WWH event and stalemate him, in fact Pak has famously said in an interview when asked what would happen if OF Thor fought WWH there in the end, his response was he wouldn't want to be in Thors shoes, i guess this is him IMPLYING Hulk would beat OF Thor, makes sense right.
It's a shame such interview happened about a decade ago and is now lost to time, but this one isn't.
CBR News: There is an awesome spread in "Action Comics" #33 where Superman is flying through space, smashing asteroids, which immediately made me think of the Hulk. Superman perhaps most famously defeated Hulk in "DC Versus Marvel" back in 1996, but the war over which one is stronger wages on via social media and the online comic book community. But who wins Hulk versus SuperDoom? Because one would think stripped of his humanity, SuperDoom would be a little less forgiving than Clark Kent/Kal-El --
Greg Pak: I think Hulk.
If Superman goes up against Hulk, Superman finds a way to calm Hulk down. Superman would turn the other cheek and find a way to understand the problem and reach out. Because Superman would diffuse the fight, Superman would win.
But if it's SuperDoom versus Hulk, and Superman is all doomed out and his heart is not in charge, I think the Hulk wins because the Hulk is the strongest one there is. If all you're doing is throwing brute force at the Hulk, he's just going to keep getting angrier and angrier. Honestly, we would all lose, because if those two go up against each other, the world would probably blow up.
Oh look Pak said an amped Superman would lose to Hulk, not only that but he said the world would blow up from their fight, i guess he IMPLIED Hulk is a planet buster even outside his WBH form. I guess that's case closed Hulk beats Superman, even amped version we no longer need threads on it. I mean Pak is the ultimate authority seeing as he wrote both characters.
But nah, i actually call BULLSHIT on Pak himself, regular Superman beats most versions of Hulk, let alone an amped one.
Are you perhaps catching the point i am trying to make to you here? How about 1 more example
Al isn't even sure if Galactus can kill the Hulk. Holy crap, Hulk is an abstract being.... Or, or.. maybe Al and all the other writers are talking out of their ass and all Kieron wanted was to appease someone asking him a stupid question about a comic that happened a decade ago. Maybe, just maybe.
See the thing is, even if Kieron told you BRB can one-shot a planet the size of Jupiter, i still wouldn't give a shit. Because what makes it into the comic is what matters, everything else should be taken with a heavy grain of salt. Not that it really would matter because the planetoid in question was much smaller than even our Moon. So really even if Bill chose not to bust it but was perfectly capable of doing so, he still wouldn't be a planet buster.
Filthy Into The Void and his blatant Hulkwanking. Try harder dirtbag.
Lol, that sounded pretty impotent. Anyway if you wanna call me a Hulk wanker that's fine but what's your evidence for that? Is it maybe me saying things like this
If you think that i am maybe suggesting this fight is gonna be easy or short, then no. It's gonna be a long and brutal fight and Hulk is more likely than not, going to be the one to KO Bill before vice-versa happens.
Oh man look at all that Hulk wanking, me saying this is gonna be a long and brutal fight were Hulk edges out a win, wow much wanking, such wow. If you have any better examples of me wanking Hulk, you can show it to them until than, work on your anger management.
He's a known lowballer of feats, Hulk isn't faster than Beta Ray in combat either since Hulk has no quantifiable feats and i doubt Bill does as well.
"Lowballer of feats", never actually heard of that one before lol. I guess that's an underhanded way of saying "he doesn't let us wank our favorite characters", so i will take it as a complement. Oh and Indestructible Hulk is faster than BRB in combat and he has quantifiable feats.
No he doesn't, he has traveled at FTL, but nothing more. There is only one feat of BRB being FTL in combat that keeps getting misused because it has nothing to do with combat and that's Bill running away from Surfer going at FTL speeds and Bill standing on top of his ship holding off a forcefield to block Surfers attacks
This feat for some reason gets passed of as FTL combat speed when it has nothing to do with it, when it's really FTL travel and it's mostly Surfer doing everything, while Bill stands in place on top of his ship. I didn't let Gladiator get wanked to be FTL in combat even though he has more showings to justify it and i certainly wont let BRB have it, because just like with Gladiator, Bill has dozens upon dozens of showings where he has never used even supersonic combat speed let alone FTL.
People need to stop overhyping characters they like.
@jagernutt: Eh, with just Indestructible Hulk incarnation they are close, if we count Green Scar and Immortal Hulk he hits harder, but i would say Indestructible Hulk is still pretty up there.
Breaks through time
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Hits a Moon sized ship so hard, it travels through space and ignites
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Hulk damages Annhilus who was amped to Thanos level
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Hulk takes out Thor with one hit
This was all Indestructible Hulk incarnation obviously.
I am not sure what that video was suppose to be about?
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