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#1 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

Pure H2H Who Is The Best??

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#2 Posted by CyborgZod (874 posts) - - Show Bio

So who is the most skilled, no powers?

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#3 Edited by jayc1324 (26015 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to say Daredevil in terms of pure martial arts but Frank keeping up with him makes me question that. I'll probably stick with him though.

Elektra is also super skilled, as is Stick who could have killed her

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#4 Edited by RBT (25314 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt>Danny>>>Bobbi>May>T'Challa>Cap>>Buck.

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#5 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by BobLeGod (1461 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor.

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#7 Edited by DSTREET45 (5129 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of the more active characters Matt, Danny, Cap, T'Challa, May, and Bobbi are usually the first characters that come to mind. Haven't seen S5 of AoS yet but I've been hearing that Daisy is making a case for her spot up there this season.

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#8 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42361 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil is the most skilled, he does flips

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#9 Edited by Paytience (4170 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap, Bobbi, Tchalla

that order...although we are kind of hindered by Panther's physicals and suit to make a real judgement on him unarmed...but Panther movie upcoming, so...

May, Ward, Widow, Bucky;

Daisy.

Matt, Punisher.

Top 10.

Nobody else is really that close.

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#10 Posted by The_Magister (12558 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobbi. It's not even close.

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#11 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

After February a bunch of these answers are going to change lol

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Stick followed by Matt and Danny. Steve and T'Challa are honorable mentions.

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#13 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5080 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt, Stick then Danny.

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#14 Posted by DSTREET45 (5129 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience: The Russo's Brothers said that T'Challa was "very well trained" and was "trained to the highest levels to fight". Make of that what you will.

No Caption Provided

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#15 Posted by The_Hajduk (4648 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Why do you think Black Panther is more skilled than Captain America?

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#16 Posted by TheKinfing (11352 posts) - - Show Bio

Stick.

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#17 Posted by ProteusXManRxis (4445 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

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#18 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (6314 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt

Online
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#19 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17643 posts) - - Show Bio

Stick

Black Sky

Matt

Bobbi

Danny Rand

Melinda May/Grant Ward

Daisy

T'Challa

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#20 Edited by Amcu (14478 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Stick

2. Matt

3. Steve.

I know some of the shield agents are up there but its hard for me to remember their feats off the top of my head.

Edit: I also forgot about Elektra. She might be up there too.

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#21 Posted by mrmonster (12317 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil

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#22 Edited by Royal_Warrior (5060 posts) - - Show Bio

Daisy now by feats

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#23 Posted by AngelJax (10984 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobbi, Matt, T'Challa, Cap, Daisy

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#24 Posted by Zepta_Pon (934 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

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#25 Posted by Lucano (3254 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously Squirrel Girl.

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#26 Posted by jayc1324 (26015 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Why do you think Black Panther is more skilled than Captain America?

Not RBT but he wrecked Bucky so many times

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#27 Posted by RR79 (6761 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:
@the_hajduk said:

@rbt: Why do you think Black Panther is more skilled than Captain America?

Not RBT but he wrecked Bucky so many times

To be fair, I believe Cap could do so as well if he wasn't holding back against him out of friendship.

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#28 Posted by The_Hajduk (4648 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:
@the_hajduk said:

@rbt: Why do you think Black Panther is more skilled than Captain America?

Not RBT but he wrecked Bucky so many times

I think Captain America could wreck Bucky even harder. Like Spider-Man wrecked Bucky even harder, but Captain America wrecked Spider-Man. Bucky was also even with Iron Man in H2H but Captain America dominated Iron Man in H2H.

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#29 Posted by jayc1324 (26015 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:
@the_hajduk said:

@rbt: Why do you think Black Panther is more skilled than Captain America?

Not RBT but he wrecked Bucky so many times

I think Captain America could wreck Bucky even harder. Like Spider-Man wrecked Bucky even harder, but Captain America wrecked Spider-Man. Bucky was also even with Iron Man in H2H but Captain America dominated Iron Man in H2H.

But he never has in all the times they've fought, so no. I'll take their multiple direct encounters over scaling.

And I don't get why people think Cap did anything to Spiderman. He momentarily inconvenienced him and then ran away. If he didn't have his shield he would not have been able to do that. He did what he did due to his gear, that's it.

In terms of Iron Man, I think you are forgetting that Bucky had his arm cut off, and that Cap actually lost.

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#30 Posted by RBT (25314 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: I don't think we have seen anything yet to draw a conclusion about who's more skilled between Cap and BP yet, but I think T'Challa is probably intended to be on a higher level. And he'll likely get some pretty decent showing in his solo movie.

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#31 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: What makes you say he is meant to be on a higher level? There always portrayed as equals in the comics.

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#32 Posted by RBT (25314 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Well I would say there both top tier fighters. Cap is probably also at "the highest level of fighting".

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#34 Posted by IronGentleman (9 posts) - - Show Bio

It's either Bobbi or Matt.

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#35 Posted by last0fth3risen (338 posts) - - Show Bio

Stick is the most skilled by far. Age is the only reason Matt gives him trouble.

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#36 Edited by katanalauncher (3398 posts) - - Show Bio

Lei Kung(hype only)

Stick

Matt/Elektra

Cap/T'Challa

Bucky

May/Ward/Bobbi/Widow

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#37 Posted by deactivated-5a7ab6ae2106d (553 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt > Danny / T'Challa > May / Bobbi / Natasha > Cap > Bucky.

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#38 Posted by DSTREET45 (5129 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44@rbt: To be fair in The Winter Soldier Director's commentary, they also said that and that they were trying to illustrate Cap as the master of H2H combat (6:49), that he was the best-trained soldier in the world (7:14), and that Cap and Bucky were "the highly-trained soldiers in the world that happened to be Super Soldiers" (1:51:35).

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They both are highly-trained and are some of the best fighters in the world based on statements so it really depends on how T'Challa does in his solo.

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#39 Posted by deltahuman (4770 posts) - - Show Bio

There's already a proper and detailed thread for this I believe titled MCU Skill tiers thread. It's pretty detailed and includes everyone from heroes to villains. Just to summarize from the rankings there which I mostly agree with,

Stick and Lei Kung(potentially), are grandmaster tier in skill.

Most of the Master tiers are heroes but the fingers of the hand are masters too. Among the heroes, I'd rank them this way,

Matt > Danny/Elektra ≥ May/Bobbi/BP/Steve > Bucky > Natasha > Daisy

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#40 Edited by RBT (25314 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Yes, but like he said, Cap is the best trained SOLDIER in the world. And he likely is. That does not necessarily make him most skilled person.

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#41 Edited by DSTREET45 (5129 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Just saying that Cap had similar statements. I don't know about you but I think being called "the best trained soldier in the world" is about as valuable as "being trained to highest levels", especially when there's a context-providing statement 30 seconds prior saying that they were showing Cap as "the master of H2H combat".

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#42 Posted by RBT (25314 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Just saying that Cap had similar statements. I don't know about you but I think being called "the best trained soldier in the world" is about as valuable as "being trained to highest levels", especially when there's a context-providing statement 30 seconds prior saying that they were showing Cap as "the master of H2H combat".

Fair enough. Though, I think, after his solo movie T'Challa would be at least slightly better than Cap.

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#43 Posted by The_Hajduk (4648 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:
@the_hajduk said:

I think Captain America could wreck Bucky even harder.

But he never has in all the times they've fought, so no. I'll take their multiple direct encounters over scaling.

Let's actually take all of this piece by piece.

First of all, did Panther really defeat Bucky any better than Steve did? Let's quantify. We'll rate them based off how many strikes they landed to the number of times they were tagged. Also this is obviously not going to count sneak attacks or blindsides.

Steve taggedWinter Soldier tagged
Highway BattleTenEight
During Bucky's EscapeOneThree
At the end of TWSTwelveSix

Black Panther taggedWinter Soldier tagged
On the rooftopFiveZero
During Bucky's EscapeThreeTwo
At the AirportFourFour

In total Steve scores a 23 versus Winter Soldier's 17. Black Panther scores a 12 versus Bucky's 6.

You might say from these results that Black Panther defeats Winter Soldier with greater comfort. But the difference is that Steve fights Winter Soldier when he's equipped with an assault rifle, no less than two sidearms, a knife, and a bulletproof mask, and all Steve has is a vibranium shield. He's also the one being caught off guard, and holding back, while Winter Soldier is bloodlusted. Black Panther fights Winter Soldier when he's completely emptyhanded, while Black Panther has a whole vibranium suit, AND 10 vibranium claws. He's also the one bloodlusted, and catching Bucky off guard, while Bucky is holding back.

So when you consider things from this angle, it becomes clear that Steve was really fighting an entirely different animal than what Black Panther was fighting. Black Panther was fighting a neutered wolf. Captain America was fighting a lion in the jungle.

But is it really fair to compare the accomplishments of current Black Panther who has over 10 years of only the "highest level training", with Captain America when he had only 2 years of high level training, and still much less than 10 years experience total? The Captain America seen in Civil War had clearly advanced in his fighting skills over the version who fought Bucky, due to another two years of training (in two years he went from his 'Avengers' brawling acrobat style to 'TWS' skills, so another two years between 'TWS' and 'Civil War' could have bred the same increase) and also all the great experience fighting as an Avenger. Meanwhile, Bucky was only decreasing, as he spent two years in hiding, laying low, not fighting at all and probably not training much, growing domesticated and emotional.

For these reasons, I think it's perfectly possible that Civil War Captain America could beat Civil War Winter Soldier just as solidly as Black Panther, because Captain America won in the past, and he's only gotten better while Winter Soldier has only gotten worse.

@jayc1324 said:

And I don't get why people think Cap did anything to Spiderman. He momentarily inconvenienced him and then ran away. If he didn't have his shield he would not have been able to do that. He did what he did due to his gear, that's it.

Don't downplay it, it was more than a momentary inconvenience. Spider-Man could not move at all. That's physical incapacitation, Captain America won the fight, and he wasn't even sweating. Tony said Steve could have won a LOT harder if he really wanted to. Don't think it counts? If Peter was unable to move, Steve could have delivered a shield throw into his chest that was simply strong enough to stun him, and thus allow the bridge to collapse on top of him and eliminate him from the fight. He chose not to do that because of his morals, he still definitely won the fight. It's very clear and obvious that Captain America basically stomped Spider-Man, yet Spider-Man previously stomped Winter Soldier.

The fact that Captain America used his gear doesn't mean anything, because Bucky used his bionic arm, and Spider-Man used the same gear against them both, and Black Panther is who we are comparing them all too and he has the most hax gear of them all, so that's not something you should bring up in a pure skill comparison.

@jayc1324 said:

In terms of Iron Man, I think you are forgetting that Bucky had his arm cut off, and that Cap actually lost.

Counting all of Iron Man's gear. Bucky lost his arm because he foolishly spent too much time focused on the Arc Reactor. This means Bucky lost to Iron Man fair and square, and before that, they were evenly matched. Captain America didn't make the same mistake as Bucky, he just kept beating the shit out of Iron Man and never gave Iron Man the chance to fire a unibeam, or really attack whatsoever. Also FRIDAY said that Captain America was going to defeat Iron Man soon that way. They weren't evenly matched, Cap was dominating him. And I'm obviously referring to how the two fought Iron Man BEFORE the fight patterns analysis. If Bucky was equal with Iron Man, and Captain America dominated Iron Man, Captain America would dominate Bucky.

And the fourth reason to side with Captain America over Black Panther overall is in their short fight. The only distinguishing actions were both of them landing one strike on the other. Sounds dead equal. However, when Captain America landed his strike, he timed it and coordinated it so that he could bounce directly into counterstriking War Machine, so the only slight piece of evidence from their actual fight together which gives any advantage to either Black Panther or Captain America whatsoever, is pointing towards Captain America.

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#44 Posted by KingCrimson (4687 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't The Ancient One supposed to be GM tier along with characters like Stick and Lei Kung?

I'd back the martial artists of the MCU over the Super Soldiers as better fighters, who would actually win in a battle notwithstanding.

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#45 Posted by hyiena (4955 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow

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#46 Posted by rogueshadow (28661 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Matt>Danny>>>Bobbi>May>T'Challa>Cap>>Buck.

I'd go with this based on what we've seen so far.

Regarding T'challa, I think people forget how T'challa vs Bucky round 2 went down:

No Caption Provided

TWS was in a lock within a few seconds. Without the strength of his metal arm, the fight seemed over and done with.

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#47 Posted by Kingnemo (282 posts) - - Show Bio

The black panther movie is gonna cement him as the best H2H in the MCU and then some

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#48 Edited by Aka_aka_aka_ak (2563 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of skill I'm inclined to agree with most above me; the Netflix series fighters should be above SHIELD agents; given that they train almost exclusively h2h, whereas the agents are trained as agents, not simply fighters.

On Earth it should be between T'Challa, Danny and Daredevil in terms of skill alone, possibly masters like Stick and Lei Kung (as others have said).

I would imagine though that more advanced planets have more advanced training. I think a case can be made that Gamora (slightly above Nebula) could well be the most skilled in all of MCU, given the training she has gone through.

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#49 Posted by Usha (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

Batroc the Leaper. 4 years out of retirement, went up a weight class and became the World Champion, the true G.O.A.T.

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Joking aside;

Honestly I'm unsure. I'd say Stick first, then DareDevil then probably Matt and etc.

I just hate the fact that the most dominant h2h fighters in the MCU are enhanced. I hoped with T'Challa they'd remove the enhancement from the herbs mysticism so we'd actually get a pure natural warrior with skills to go toe-to-toe with the Cap and the like, but nope, just another PED user.

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#50 Posted by Nelomaxwell (14145 posts) - - Show Bio