Ben Solo (ROS) vs Darth Maul (TPM)

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Erkanbeater

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@alphaq

He’s stated to be on the level of Luke and Anakin, as well as superior as a duelist to Empire Strikes Back Luke. ESB Luke drove back and landed a lightsaber hit on Vader, someone who is several tiers above TPM Maul. TPM Maul is weaker in every respect to his TCW incarnation, who isn’t “even in Dooku’s league”, who in turn is significantly less powerful than Vader. Kylo is superior to someone who can contend with Vader, who has tiers between himself and TPM Maul. Kylo is within striking distance, so to speak, of Vader as a duelist whereas nothing suggest TPM Maul is that good.

No Caption Provided

Vader is also stated as superior to Palpatine in lightsaber combat, which is false. Ben has absolutely no feats that suggest he is close to the likes of Luke or Anakin as a duelist. Your entire argument for Kylo being a better duelist than Maul hinges on Luke contending with Vader in some form. This is entirely untrue, seeing as Vader was toying with Luke the entire time, and clearly not going all out. Contending with a massively holding back Vader doesn't even come close to putting you at Maul level, who shouldn't be that much worse in TPM than in TCW. Based on what is Vader a few tiers above Maul as a duelist? Maul was superior to the combined forces of Qui-Gon and Obi Wan, Qui Gon himself was easily able to deflect omnidirectional blasterfire at one point. Maul at worst is considerably inferior to Vader in duelling, but by no means 'a few tiers' below. Luke got stomped in seconds once Vader got serious. Luke cannot contend with Vader unless it is his ROTJ incarnation. Ben is nowhere near Vader's level as a duelist, let alone 'within striking distance'. Also, not being in Dooku's league can very well refer to overall power, rather than duelling ability. There are also multiple statements that place Maul on Vader's level of power, even before the clone wars. Near the end of S4, only an episode after Maul's restoration, he outmatches Obi Wan. This is a Maul who has been out of practice for 12 years, so logically he would be worse than he was in TPM. In conclusion, Ben isn't even close to Vader, especially in duelling. Using ESB Luke as a measuring stick is horrific since Luke can't hold a candle to Vader at this point in time. Ben doesn't have the feats at all to stand up to the likes of Luke or Anakin in lightsaber combat.

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correct me but there wasn't a guy named anakin alone, in sw

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Erkanbeater

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@yomismo: Anakin solo if that's who you're referring to.

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AlphaQ

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@erkanbeater:

Vader is also stated as superior to Palpatine in lightsaber combat, which is false.

If one statement in one source, under one writer, is incorrect it does not follow that any statement we don't like can be thrown out the window. Presumably you can make an argument and present evidence to directly challenge the assertion that Vader is superior to Palpatine - can you do the same for the assertion that Kylo is superior to Luke?

Canonical statements stand on their own unless you can present evidence that they are wrong. Until you do that, Kylo is superior to ESB Luke.

No Caption Provided

Note: you could argue this doesn't explicitly say he would win via dueling but considering Luke has essentially no defensive Force powers, considering he couldn't counter thrown scenery against Vader, it clearly means dueling.

Kylo is also on a level with Luke and Anakin.

No Caption Provided

Also stated to be one of the most powerful fighters in the entire verse.

"Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren."

StarWars.com

Ben has absolutely no feats that suggest he is close to the likes of Luke or Anakin as a duelist.

Of course he doesn't have anything directly linking him with Anakin and Luke - they never fought or had common enemies! That's why you have to use canonical statements.

Let me ask you this; if a new era of Star Wars is established a thousand years before the prequel era and the main hero is stated to be equal to, for the sake of example, Obi-Wan Kenobi as a duelist, would you give the same response? "There are no feats linking him and Kenobi, therefore there's no reason to think that they're actually equal!"

Your entire argument for Kylo being a better duelist than Maul hinges on Luke contending with Vader in some form.

No it doesn't, you haven't responded to by entire post. My argument breaks down like this.

  1. Kylo is canonically in Luke and Anakin's tier - nothing suggest TPM is that skilled.
  2. Kylo is confirmed to be better than ESB Luke - whose feat of contending with Vader is superior to anything Maul has ever done.
  3. If you go strictly by feats, Kylo's feat of beating Ren is better than anything Maul has done.

Only my second argument hinges on Luke contending with Vader.

This is entirely untrue, seeing as Vader was toying with Luke the entire time, and clearly not going all out. Contending with a massively holding back Vader doesn't even come close to putting you at Maul level,

Do you have any statements that Vader was toying with and holding back against Luke? He was perfectly willing to kill Luke, tried to chop his head off with a sneak attack and was absolutely willing to defend himself to the best of his ability.

Luke overwhelms Vader's defenses and forces him out of the ring.
Luke overwhelms Vader's defenses and forces him out of the ring.
Vader tries to decapitate Luke - the duel was a test to see if he was worth keeping.
Vader tries to decapitate Luke - the duel was a test to see if he was worth keeping.
Luke sees a flaw in Vader's frenzied assault and tags him with his lightsaber.
Luke sees a flaw in Vader's frenzied assault and tags him with his lightsaber.

I often see people downplaying Luke's performance on Bespin without convincing evidence. You can say that Vader wanted to recruit Luke but he was clearly throwing death blows, getting overwhelmed at times and even getting tagged by Luke's lightsaber. If Vader wasn't wearing his suit he'd have lost his goddamn arm - the onus is on you to prove Vader had the kiddie gloves on.

who shouldn't be that much worse in TPM than in TCW.

No, I think it's pretty clear that TCW Maul was substantially more powerful than his TPM incarnation. When TPM Kenobi drew on his rage he gave Maul a good fight, destroying his saber staff and flooring him - Maul was lucky one of his blades stayed functional or he would've lost outright. Compare that to how TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage was fodder to TCW Maul. Kenobi grew to such an extent that him drawing on his rage was a hindrance rather than a help - considering TCW Maul is a peer of TCW Kenobi it shows a substantial growth on Maul's part.

Based on what is Vader a few tiers above Maul as a duelist?

If there's a level between Vader and Dooku, and between Dooku and TCW Maul and again between TCW Maul and TPM Maul (considering the former stomped TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage whereas the latter got partially disarmed by Padawan Kenobi drawing on his rage) then it stands that there's tiers between Maul and Vader. We can quibble about what exactly a "tier" is but it'll ultimately be arbitrary and semantic - suffice to say Vader is much, much better than TPM Maul.

"His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."

-- http://www.previewsworld.com/Article/145871-Jeremy-Barlow-Picks-Up-From-The-Clone-Wars-With-Darth-Maul-Series

When you ask about dueling, it's generally true that differences in power lead automatically to differences in dueling ability. If one character is on another level in terms in terms of power, then other characters of equivalent training with lesser power are reliably worse duelists.

Maul was superior to the combined forces of Qui-Gon and Obi Wan, Qui Gon himself was easily able to deflect omnidirectional blasterfire at one point.

Source for Maul being better than the duo? He separated Jinn from Kenobi before beating him. By feats he contended with the duo and beat Jinn - what statements are you relying on?

When was he able to block omnidirectional fire? I think you might be used a Legends source there...

Maul at worst is considerably inferior to Vader in duelling, but by no means 'a few tiers' below. Luke got stomped in seconds once Vader got serious. Luke cannot contend with Vader unless it is his ROTJ incarnation.

As I said, what we call a "tier" or "level" is arbitrary - I was just borrowing the phrase from statements. We can agree on "much worse" or "considerably inferior" or other synonyms - it doesn't really matter.

Except Vader didn't just stomp Luke - he literally got tagged by his lightsaber! And that was when Vader was capitalizing on the momentum of catching Luke off guard - there were times Luke was the one driving Vader back.

Ben is nowhere near Vader's level as a duelist, let alone 'within striking distance'.

He literally is within striking distance. Luke was close enough to Vader that he was literally landing strikes on him. Kylo is superior. Therefore, Kylo is within striking distance.

Also, not being in Dooku's league can very well refer to overall power, rather than duelling ability

Yes, but power in the Force is almost directly proportional to ability with a saber. Both Maul, Dooku and Vader have devoted decades of their lives to training under the best conditions and fighting under the most brutal - saying one would innately have the advantage of saber skills disproportionate to their power seems like quite the bold claim.

There are also multiple statements that place Maul on Vader's level of power, even before the clone wars

Can you provide them? I've provided one that Maul is at least two levels below Vader...

Near the end of S4, only an episode after Maul's restoration, he outmatches Obi Wan. This is a Maul who has been out of practice for 12 years, so logically he would be worse than he was in TPM.

Are you referring to their first fight after the resurrection? Kenobi had been tortured before and had his ability to use the Force hindered by his rage, so there's key context there.

If anything the fact that TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage was stomped by TCW Maul but Padawan Kenobi drawing on his rage gave a challenging fight to TPM Maul shows that TCW Maul is significantly above his previous self. In regards training, connection to the Force generally overshadows everything else (Rey and Savage are great examples of this).

In conclusion, Ben isn't even close to Vader, especially in duelling. Using ESB Luke as a measuring stick is horrific since Luke can't hold a candle to Vader at this point in time. Ben doesn't have the feats at all to stand up to the likes of Luke or Anakin in lightsaber combat.

Ben has canonical statements on his side, stating that he is. You can throw up your hands and dismiss them all you want - but we all know that the reason Ben lacks feats against Vader and Maul and Anakin and RoTJ Luke is simple, he was alive at a different time.

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AlphaQ

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@subline: Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Head-to-Head.

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DarthAdi

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@alphaq:

Kylo is also on a level with Luke and Anakin.

The quote doesn't say that their skills are comparable, only that they all have formidable lightsaber skills. This doesn't mean that their skills are equally formidable tho.

To give you an example: Both Yoda and someone like Fisto have formidable skills, but Yoda is still much more powerful and skilled.

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Waking_Dreamer

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@alphaq said:

Canonical statements stand on their own unless you can present evidence that they are wrong. Until you do that, Kylo is superior to ESB Luke.

No Caption Provided

Note: you could argue this doesn't explicitly say he would win via dueling but considering Luke has essentially no defensive Force powers, considering he couldn't counter thrown scenery against Vader, it clearly means dueling.

NOICE!

So after 5 years the victor of this thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/kylo-ren-tfa-vs-luke-skywalker-esb-1755223/

has been officially verified!

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AlphaQ

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@darthadi said:

@alphaq:

Kylo is also on a level with Luke and Anakin.

The quote doesn't say that their skills are comparable, only that they all have formidable lightsaber skills. This doesn't mean that their skills are equally formidable tho.

To give you an example: Both Yoda and someone like Fisto have formidable skills, but Yoda is still much more powerful and skilled.

Sure, I would never say Kylo, Luke and Anakin are equal because of that quote. Only that they're on the same tier.

I do think the quote is trying to convey that they are comparable. To borrow your example, if you said something like "Yoda and Fisto are powerful in the ways of the Force", that wouldn't necessarily entail that they were particularly close in power. But if you said "Much like Yoda, Fisto is powerful in the ways of the Force" there's a much stronger implication of parity.

You could focus on the first clause, stating Kylo is like Anakin and Luke, or read the second clause within the context of who he's being compared to - it seems pretty clear to me that quote is expressing parity.

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AlphaQ

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@darthadi: Also, here's a statement that TRoS Rey is better than Luke and worse than Anakin. This is not a canonical statement, but it sheds some light onto the notion that Rey and Kylo are comparable to their predecessors.

No Caption Provided

The only reason it isn't relevant for this debate is that it refers to TRoS instead of TLJ - since Leia states Rey grew more powerful every day in between the two movies it stands that Kylo was also growing with power considering he maintained equality with her.

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DarthAdi

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#62  Edited By DarthAdi

@alphaq: In Matt Martin's mind ROTJ Luke is nowhere near as skilled as Vader (and won only because Vader was hindered or something), so being above him doesn't mean much if we take his statements as evidence.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

He also said that Anakin is far beyond Rey.

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AlphaQ

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@darthadi: I mean, all Martin is saying in those Tweets is that Luke isn't equal to Vader, not that he's far below or Vader only lost due to holding back or anything like that. And the reason he gives (combined Sith and Jedi training) at least applies to Kylo, if not Rey.

It seems from Martin's statements Anakin is far above Rey and Luke both, Vader is above Luke and Rey is likely above Luke

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DarthAdi

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#64  Edited By DarthAdi

@alphaq: Vader>Anakin in skill and power.

If Anakin is far above Luke and Rey, then so is Vader. Anyway, Martins's tweets are not official.

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AlphaQ

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@darthadi: I can't really respond to that - I have no idea who is better between Vader and Anakin.

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Erkanbeater

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@alphaq said:

@erkanbeater:

Vader is also stated as superior to Palpatine in lightsaber combat, which is false.

If one statement in one source, under one writer, is incorrect it does not follow that any statement we don't like can be thrown out the window. Presumably you can make an argument and present evidence to directly challenge the assertion that Vader is superior to Palpatine - can you do the same for the assertion that Kylo is superior to Luke?

Canonical statements stand on their own unless you can present evidence that they are wrong. Until you do that, Kylo is superior to ESB Luke.

No Caption Provided

Note: you could argue this doesn't explicitly say he would win via dueling but considering Luke has essentially no defensive Force powers, considering he couldn't counter thrown scenery against Vader, it clearly means dueling.

Kylo is also on a level with Luke and Anakin.

No Caption Provided

Also stated to be one of the most powerful fighters in the entire verse.

"Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren."

StarWars.com

Ben has absolutely no feats that suggest he is close to the likes of Luke or Anakin as a duelist.

Of course he doesn't have anything directly linking him with Anakin and Luke - they never fought or had common enemies! That's why you have to use canonical statements.

Let me ask you this; if a new era of Star Wars is established a thousand years before the prequel era and the main hero is stated to be equal to, for the sake of example, Obi-Wan Kenobi as a duelist, would you give the same response? "There are no feats linking him and Kenobi, therefore there's no reason to think that they're actually equal!"

Your entire argument for Kylo being a better duelist than Maul hinges on Luke contending with Vader in some form.

No it doesn't, you haven't responded to by entire post. My argument breaks down like this.

  1. Kylo is canonically in Luke and Anakin's tier - nothing suggest TPM is that skilled.
  2. Kylo is confirmed to be better than ESB Luke - whose feat of contending with Vader is superior to anything Maul has ever done.
  3. If you go strictly by feats, Kylo's feat of beating Ren is better than anything Maul has done.

Only my second argument hinges on Luke contending with Vader.

This is entirely untrue, seeing as Vader was toying with Luke the entire time, and clearly not going all out. Contending with a massively holding back Vader doesn't even come close to putting you at Maul level,

Do you have any statements that Vader was toying with and holding back against Luke? He was perfectly willing to kill Luke, tried to chop his head off with a sneak attack and was absolutely willing to defend himself to the best of his ability.

Luke overwhelms Vader's defenses and forces him out of the ring.
Luke overwhelms Vader's defenses and forces him out of the ring.
Vader tries to decapitate Luke - the duel was a test to see if he was worth keeping.
Vader tries to decapitate Luke - the duel was a test to see if he was worth keeping.
Luke sees a flaw in Vader's frenzied assault and tags him with his lightsaber.
Luke sees a flaw in Vader's frenzied assault and tags him with his lightsaber.

I often see people downplaying Luke's performance on Bespin without convincing evidence. You can say that Vader wanted to recruit Luke but he was clearly throwing death blows, getting overwhelmed at times and even getting tagged by Luke's lightsaber. If Vader wasn't wearing his suit he'd have lost his goddamn arm - the onus is on you to prove Vader had the kiddie gloves on.

who shouldn't be that much worse in TPM than in TCW.

No, I think it's pretty clear that TCW Maul was substantially more powerful than his TPM incarnation. When TPM Kenobi drew on his rage he gave Maul a good fight, destroying his saber staff and flooring him - Maul was lucky one of his blades stayed functional or he would've lost outright. Compare that to how TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage was fodder to TCW Maul. Kenobi grew to such an extent that him drawing on his rage was a hindrance rather than a help - considering TCW Maul is a peer of TCW Kenobi it shows a substantial growth on Maul's part.

Based on what is Vader a few tiers above Maul as a duelist?

If there's a level between Vader and Dooku, and between Dooku and TCW Maul and again between TCW Maul and TPM Maul (considering the former stomped TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage whereas the latter got partially disarmed by Padawan Kenobi drawing on his rage) then it stands that there's tiers between Maul and Vader. We can quibble about what exactly a "tier" is but it'll ultimately be arbitrary and semantic - suffice to say Vader is much, much better than TPM Maul.

"His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."

-- http://www.previewsworld.com/Article/145871-Jeremy-Barlow-Picks-Up-From-The-Clone-Wars-With-Darth-Maul-Series

When you ask about dueling, it's generally true that differences in power lead automatically to differences in dueling ability. If one character is on another level in terms in terms of power, then other characters of equivalent training with lesser power are reliably worse duelists.

Maul was superior to the combined forces of Qui-Gon and Obi Wan, Qui Gon himself was easily able to deflect omnidirectional blasterfire at one point.

Source for Maul being better than the duo? He separated Jinn from Kenobi before beating him. By feats he contended with the duo and beat Jinn - what statements are you relying on?

When was he able to block omnidirectional fire? I think you might be used a Legends source there...

Maul at worst is considerably inferior to Vader in duelling, but by no means 'a few tiers' below. Luke got stomped in seconds once Vader got serious. Luke cannot contend with Vader unless it is his ROTJ incarnation.

As I said, what we call a "tier" or "level" is arbitrary - I was just borrowing the phrase from statements. We can agree on "much worse" or "considerably inferior" or other synonyms - it doesn't really matter.

Except Vader didn't just stomp Luke - he literally got tagged by his lightsaber! And that was when Vader was capitalizing on the momentum of catching Luke off guard - there were times Luke was the one driving Vader back.

Ben is nowhere near Vader's level as a duelist, let alone 'within striking distance'.

He literally is within striking distance. Luke was close enough to Vader that he was literally landing strikes on him. Kylo is superior. Therefore, Kylo is within striking distance.

Also, not being in Dooku's league can very well refer to overall power, rather than duelling ability

Yes, but power in the Force is almost directly proportional to ability with a saber. Both Maul, Dooku and Vader have devoted decades of their lives to training under the best conditions and fighting under the most brutal - saying one would innately have the advantage of saber skills disproportionate to their power seems like quite the bold claim.

There are also multiple statements that place Maul on Vader's level of power, even before the clone wars

Can you provide them? I've provided one that Maul is at least two levels below Vader...

Near the end of S4, only an episode after Maul's restoration, he outmatches Obi Wan. This is a Maul who has been out of practice for 12 years, so logically he would be worse than he was in TPM.

Are you referring to their first fight after the resurrection? Kenobi had been tortured before and had his ability to use the Force hindered by his rage, so there's key context there.

If anything the fact that TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage was stomped by TCW Maul but Padawan Kenobi drawing on his rage gave a challenging fight to TPM Maul shows that TCW Maul is significantly above his previous self. In regards training, connection to the Force generally overshadows everything else (Rey and Savage are great examples of this).

In conclusion, Ben isn't even close to Vader, especially in duelling. Using ESB Luke as a measuring stick is horrific since Luke can't hold a candle to Vader at this point in time. Ben doesn't have the feats at all to stand up to the likes of Luke or Anakin in lightsaber combat.

Ben has canonical statements on his side, stating that he is. You can throw up your hands and dismiss them all you want - but we all know that the reason Ben lacks feats against Vader and Maul and Anakin and RoTJ Luke is simple, he was alive at a different time.

If one statement in one source, under one writer, is incorrect it does not follow that any statement we don't like can be thrown out the window. Presumably you can make an argument and present evidence to directly challenge the assertion that Vader is superior to Palpatine - can you do the same for the assertion that Kylo is superior to Luke?

Canonical statements stand on their own unless you can present evidence that they are wrong. Until you do that, Kylo is superior to ESB Luke.

No Caption Provided

Note: you could argue this doesn't explicitly say he would win via dueling but considering Luke has essentially no defensive Force powers, considering he couldn't counter thrown scenery against Vader, it clearly means dueling.

Fair enough

Kylo is also on a level with Luke and Anakin.

No Caption Provided

Nowhere does this state that Ben is on Anakin's or Luke's level, it merely states that Kylo is formidable with a lightsaber, which is also true for both Luke and Anakin.

Also stated to be one of the most powerful fighters in the entire verse.

"Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren."

This could simply be referring to raw power.

Kylo is canonically in Luke and Anakin's tier - nothing suggest TPM is that skilled.

No he isn't some source stating that Kylo is formidable with a lightsaber, like his predecessors does not mean that he is on their level.

Kylo is confirmed to be better than ESB Luke - whose feat of contending with Vader is superior to anything Maul has ever done.

How is it better than anything Maul has ever done? Maul was superior to the likes of Jinn and Kenobi combined. What makes Vader so much better than Maul in lightsaber combat that Maul cannot contend?

If you go strictly by feats, Kylo's feat of beating Ren is better than anything Maul has done.

What makes beating Ren so good? He snaps the neck of some fodder jedi who was completely unaware? How is that better than beating one of the most respectable members of the jedi order when it came to lightsaber combat?

Do you have any statements that Vader was toying with and holding back against Luke? He was perfectly willing to kill Luke, tried to chop his head off with a sneak attack and was absolutely willing to defend himself to the best of his ability.

The fight makes it perfectly clear that Vader was holding back to an extent. At the beginning, it was Luke that was starting that battle, making the offensive moves. Vader has the chance to kill him at least once in the duel, but he does not kill him. The fact that Vader doesn't take these opportunities to kill him is convincing enough that he didn't go all-out. Vader trying to land killing blows could simply be him testing Luke, and had those killing blows landed, Luke would have been an 'unworthy' apprentice in a way.

You can say that Vader wanted to recruit Luke but he was clearly throwing death blows, getting overwhelmed at times and even getting tagged by Luke's lightsaber. If Vader wasn't wearing his suit he'd have lost his goddamn arm

When was Vader getting overwhelmed? To my knowledge he was only overwhelmed once, and that was due to environment. Vader's suit allows him to be tagged without suffering serious consequences, logically he wouldn't be overly cautious with the knowledge that he can be tagged by a lightsaber with little consequence.

No, I think it's pretty clear that TCW Maul was substantially more powerful than his TPM incarnation. When TPM Kenobi drew on his rage he gave Maul a good fight, destroying his saber staff and flooring him

Yes, TCW Maul did grow to eventually be superior to his TPM incarnation, but it would be difficult to believe that he surpassed that mere days after being restored. Let's not forget that Maul hadn't used a lightsaber in over a decade, and furthermore, suffered a disadvantage due to his legs, which would not bestow him with the speed and agility he once had. And like you said he was substantially amped, having just watched his master been killed in front of him. And in the end, Maul still beat him convincingly in less than a minute.

Compare that to how TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage was fodder to TCW Maul. Kenobi grew to such an extent that him drawing on his rage was a hindrance rather than a help - considering TCW Maul is a peer of TCW Kenobi it shows a substantial growth on Maul's part.

TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage doesn't compare to the amount of rage TPM Kenobi felt. TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage is from an event that happened over a decade ago, TPM Kenobi's rage is fresh from an event that happened only seconds before. This isn't comparable.

suffice to say Vader is much, much better than TPM Maul

This is a massive over-exaggeration, Vader is better for sure, but not that much better.

"His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."

-- http://www.previewsworld.com/Article/145871-Jeremy-Barlow-Picks-Up-From-The-Clone-Wars-With-Darth-Maul-Series

When you ask about dueling, it's generally true that differences in power lead automatically to differences in dueling ability. If one character is on another level in terms in terms of power, then other characters of equivalent training with lesser power are reliably worse duelists.

Yes power tends to relate to duelling ability, but it isn't directly proportional as you are saying. Dooku showed that he was able to ragdoll Obi Wan pretty easily, but on their fight on Mustafar, Anakin was unable to do the same. Anakin beat Dooku in a lightsaber battle.

Source for Maul being better than the duo? He separated Jinn from Kenobi before beating him. By feats he contended with the duo and beat Jinn - what statements are you relying on?

Here:

''The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once, flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.''

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Script (1999)

'Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.''

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel (1999)

''He was skilled, Anakin saw-more skilled, perhaps, than the men he faced. And he was confident in a way that was disturbing. He would not be overcome easily.''

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel (1999)

He was generally portrayed as superior to Qui Gon and Obi Wan at once.

When was he able to block omnidirectional fire? I think you might be used a Legends source there...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Omnidirectional may have been an exaggeration, but it is still an incredibly impressive feat nonetheless.

Except Vader didn't just stomp Luke - he literally got tagged by his lightsaber! And that was when Vader was capitalizing on the momentum of catching Luke off guard - there were times Luke was the one driving Vader back.

Vader stomped Luke the moment he tagged him, it took mere seconds to cut his hand off.

He literally is within striking distance. Luke was close enough to Vader that he was literally landing strikes on him. Kylo is superior. Therefore, Kylo is within striking distance.

Luke landed one strike on a holding back Vader. In the first minute of the fight, Vader pretty easily disarmed him, which indicates considerable superiority.

Yes, but power in the Force is almost directly proportional to ability with a saber. Both Maul, Dooku and Vader have devoted decades of their lives to training under the best conditions and fighting under the most brutal - saying one would innately have the advantage of saber skills disproportionate to their power seems like quite the bold claim.

Based on what? Yes they are proportional, but not directly. Being more powerful than someone will not warrant your superiority as a lightsaber duelist to them. Maul was actively trained in lightsaber combat by Palpatine throughout his time as an apprentice, while that didn't seem to be the case for Dooku or Vader. Based on what is Vader so far above Maul in lightsaber combat? Yes, he is considerably more powerful, but at best, Vader is noticeably better.

There are also multiple statements that place Maul on Vader's level of power, even before the clone wars

Dave Filoni: ''Maul is a super dangerous threat. Because he has been trained for years. He’s really adept. So he’s kind of in the Vader realm. He’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways. Not the least of which is manipulation.''

Source: Rebel Force Radio Interview (2012)

George Lucas: "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: Rolling Stone Interview (2005)

''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Source: Star Wars Comic UK Volume 07 Issue 04 (2014)

These multiple sources place Maul on Vader's level, with even one source stating this before The Clone Wars show.

In regards training, connection to the Force generally overshadows everything else (Rey and Savage are great examples of this).

Correct, but it still allows for less powerful characters to be better duelists than more their superiors in raw power.

Ben has canonical statements on his side, stating that he is. You can throw up your hands and dismiss them all you want - but we all know that the reason Ben lacks feats against Vader and Maul and Anakin and RoTJ Luke is simple, he was alive at a different time.

Ben has canonical statements stating that he is above ESB Luke, the source you pulled out for him being on 'Luke and Anakin's level' simply states that he is a formidable lightsaber duelist like Luke and Anakin before him, nowhere does it suggest parity with them. As of now, all four of those characters are above Ben as a duelist. Simple.

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@alphaq said:

@darthadi: Also, here's a statement that TRoS Rey is better than Luke and worse than Anakin. This is not a canonical statement, but it sheds some light onto the notion that Rey and Kylo are comparable to their predecessors.

No Caption Provided

The only reason it isn't relevant for this debate is that it refers to TRoS instead of TLJ - since Leia states Rey grew more powerful every day in between the two movies it stands that Kylo was also growing with power considering he maintained equality with her.

It isn't relative to the debate because Martin himself said that whatever they say on twitter shouldn't be taken as gospel when it relates to power levels. Martin also states that Anakin is far beyond, which would contradict with your belief that Ben is on Anakin's level since they were on par with each other during their fight in ROS.

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@alphaq said:

@darthadi: I can't really respond to that - I have no idea who is better between Vader and Anakin.

You yourself have said that duelling ability is almost directly proportionate with power. In which case, Vader surpassed his ROTS self only five years after he sustained his injuries.

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

You yourself said that Luke was able to contend with Vader, and even said that he was within striking distance even in ESB. You used Matt Martin as a source, who stated that Rey was above luke, but far below Anakin. And Vader has feats and statements putting himself above his past self. By your own logic, Vader is more skilled and powerful than Anakin seeing as you said skill and power were directly proportionate. Yet you say that ROTJ Luke, who is much better than his ESB self, is not as good a duelist as Rey. So ESB Luke can contend with Vader, suggesting comparability, yet he is considerably inferior to his ROTJ self, who is below TROS Rey, who is far below Anakin, who is below Vader himself. This is why using writer statements on twitter is wildly unreliable and why they are unofficial.

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@erkanbeater:

It isn't relative to the debate because Martin himself said that whatever they say on twitter shouldn't be taken as gospel when it relates to power levels.

True, nothing Martin says is necessarily correct in itself, I made note that his statements are not canon. His quotes are just a way of "reading the room" when we try and figure out what the current storytellers think about power levels.

Martin also states that Anakin is far beyond, which would contradict with your belief that Ben is on Anakin's level since they were on par with each other during their fight in ROS.

Eh, I can comment on this several different ways. I could say Anakin varies a lot with his emotions. I could say the reason Martin says Anakin is above Rey is partly training, and I don't know if he would be entirely consistent and give the same answer with respect to Kylo, who has even more training. I could say it could just boil down to a semantic difference; is being "much like" someone in dueling incompatible with being "fairly far [beneath]" them, if they come from different writers?

I'm just going to say this, I guess; Martin's comments aren't canon but my earlier blurb is. For what it's worth I have Kylo beneath Anakin and Luke as of right now.

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Maul should take it in a good fight.

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Maul slaughterstomps with ease.

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@alphaq said:

@darthadi: Also, here's a statement that TRoS Rey is better than Luke and worse than Anakin. This is not a canonical statement, but it sheds some light onto the notion that Rey and Kylo are comparable to their predecessors.

No Caption Provided

The only reason it isn't relevant for this debate is that it refers to TRoS instead of TLJ - since Leia states Rey grew more powerful every day in between the two movies it stands that Kylo was also growing with power considering he maintained equality with her.

This doesn't shed any light on anything. Martin has explicitly stated that he makes a point to differentiate between opinion and statement in his posts. "I think" versus "this is the case." In this instance, Martin definitively declares that Anakin is much better than TROS Rey -- canonical statement. He says that Rey is probably better than Luke -- unofficial musing.

And, your argument about Kylo being comparable to Luke & Anakin is a gross misinterpretation of the quote. It doesn't say "Kylo's formidable lightsaber skills are much like those of his grandfather and uncle before him." And yet that's what you're pulling out of it. It says that Kylo also has formidable lightsaber skills, like his grandfather and uncle did. All this tells us is that all three possess formidable lightsaber skills. Nothing more.

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@erkanbeater:

You yourself have said that duelling ability is almost directly proportionate with power. In which case, Vader surpassed his ROTS self only five years after he sustained his injuries.

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

See, I'm not completely convinced that Vader is unbiased when it comes comparing himself to Anakin Skywalker. I would say that if there is no other evidnce or statements comparing the two, sure, I would accept that - but I don't think that should be taken at face value because of the context around Vader's perception of Anakin and his former life.

You yourself said that Luke was able to contend with Vader, and even said that he was within striking distance even in ESB. You used Matt Martin as a source, who stated that Rey was above luke, but far below Anakin. And Vader has feats and statements putting himself above his past self. By your own logic, Vader is more skilled and powerful than Anakin seeing as you said skill and power were directly proportionate. Yet you say that ROTJ Luke, who is much better than his ESB self, is not as good a duelist as Rey. So ESB Luke can contend with Vader, suggesting comparability, yet he is considerably inferior to his ROTJ self, who is below TROS Rey, who is far below Anakin, who is below Vader himself. This is why using writer statements on twitter is wildly unreliable and why they are unofficial.

If I was being totally honest you probably could make the argument that Vader's skill with a saber is dis-proportionality weak in comparison to his power in the Force because of his suit and cybernetics. Now, I think this argument isn't super strong because Maul adapted to half his body being cybernetic near-instantly, Savage adapted to a cybernetic arm seemingly instantly and there is some indication that a robotic body is superior in many circumstances (near endless stamina, superior strength, etc.). But the argument is still there.

Yeah, I would agree that Twitter statements aren't super reliable. It really comes down to quibbling about how big the gaps you describe are in practical terms.

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@alphaq said:

@darthadi: Also, here's a statement that TRoS Rey is better than Luke and worse than Anakin. This is not a canonical statement, but it sheds some light onto the notion that Rey and Kylo are comparable to their predecessors.

No Caption Provided

The only reason it isn't relevant for this debate is that it refers to TRoS instead of TLJ - since Leia states Rey grew more powerful every day in between the two movies it stands that Kylo was also growing with power considering he maintained equality with her.

This doesn't shed any light on anything. Martin has explicitly stated that he makes a point to differentiate between opinion and statement in his posts. "I think" versus "this is the case." In this instance, Martin definitively declares that Anakin is much better than TROS Rey -- canonical statement. He says that Rey is probably better than Luke -- unofficial musing.

And, your argument about Kylo being comparable to Luke & Anakin is a gross misinterpretation of the quote. It doesn't say "Kylo's formidable lightsaber skills are much like those of his grandfather and uncle before him." And yet that's what you're pulling out of it. It says that Kylo also has formidable lightsaber skills, like his grandfather and uncle did. All this tells us is that all three possess formidable lightsaber skills. Nothing more.

I agree with this ^^^

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Vader made it abundantly clear that he could have swiftly ended Luke whenever he wanted to at multiple points in the duel:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Vader seemingly going for death blows is just him probing and pushing Luke. He does the same thing in ROTJ, and Dooku does it to Anakin in ROTS. Neither was actually trying to kill, because they wanted and needed to recruit their opponents.

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Lmao OP changed Ben from TLJ to ROS cause he realised what a stomp this is.

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@erkanbeater: The bump was for the ROS feats, I just edited the pics and title because it wasnt updated. Are you annoyed that Maul could lose to a Disney SW character? Ben is very talented now!

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@erkanbeater: Are you annoyed that Maul could lose to a Disney SW character? Ben is very talented now!

Maul continues to eviscerate him in a lightsaber battle. Being 'very talented' doesn't mean shit.

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@erkanbeater: Schooling Rey, KOR and a pissed off Luke is enough now to give Maul a good fight. Also looked the most skilled in the Throne Room.

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@erkanbeater: Schooling Rey, KOR and a pissed off Luke is enough now to give Maul a good fight. Also looked the most skilled in the Throne Room.

Schooling Rey,

And that's impressive because?

KOR

Again, how is that impressive?

a pissed off Luke

When did Ben beat Luke in sabers?

is enough now to give Maul a good fight.

Not in a lightsaber fight.

Also looked the most skilled in the Throne Room.

What are you trying to say here? The throne room fight shows nothing except that Ben is more skilled than Rey and that he was incapable of beating Praetorian guard without cooperating with someone nearly as skilled as him.

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Schooling the Knights Of Ren isn't something out of Maul's league. It anything the Knights Of Ren would get schooled just as hard by Maul.

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King-Ragnar

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memes af

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God-Thanatos1

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Kylo Ren should stomp. Context > Choreography

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@lord_tenebrous said:
@alphaq said:

@darthadi: Also, here's a statement that TRoS Rey is better than Luke and worse than Anakin. This is not a canonical statement, but it sheds some light onto the notion that Rey and Kylo are comparable to their predecessors.

No Caption Provided

The only reason it isn't relevant for this debate is that it refers to TRoS instead of TLJ - since Leia states Rey grew more powerful every day in between the two movies it stands that Kylo was also growing with power considering he maintained equality with her.

This doesn't shed any light on anything. Martin has explicitly stated that he makes a point to differentiate between opinion and statement in his posts. "I think" versus "this is the case." In this instance, Martin definitively declares that Anakin is much better than TROS Rey -- canonical statement. He says that Rey is probably better than Luke -- unofficial musing.

And, your argument about Kylo being comparable to Luke & Anakin is a gross misinterpretation of the quote. It doesn't say "Kylo's formidable lightsaber skills are much like those of his grandfather and uncle before him." And yet that's what you're pulling out of it. It says that Kylo also has formidable lightsaber skills, like his grandfather and uncle did. All this tells us is that all three possess formidable lightsaber skills. Nothing more.

I agree with this ^^^

Where has Matt Martin said that some of his Twitter posts are canon? In a Tweet I found he said that Twitter simply isn't a canon source, period.

No Caption Provided

There is seemingly no distinction between "musing" and "explicit" statements with respect to Martin's word.

When it says Kylo has formidable lightsaber skills, it's doing so in the context of a comparison with his uncle and grandfather. I don't see how you can differentiate the statement that Kylo has formidable skill with the one the he is much like his ancestors - they're clearly trying to confer knowledge about Kylo's skill relative to them. People seem to be dodging bullets when it comes to what is clearly supposed to be a comparison between the three.

Pop quiz, mind telling me how you read the following statements, Erkanbeater and Lord Tenebrous?

Statement: "Much like the Hulk, Spider-Man has superhuman strength."

Question: In you eyes does this statement seem to imply parity between The Hulk and Spider-Man? Or in you mind is this statement identical to "The Hulk has superhuman strength. Spider-Man has superhuman strength."?

In my mind if a writer said something like that I would look twice, and ask why they were comparing Hulk and Spider-Man, would you do the same?

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Kylo Ren should stomp. Context > Choreography

Based on what?

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Maul casually outduels and bisects him

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@erkanbeater:

Nowhere does this state that Ben is on Anakin's or Luke's level, it merely states that Kylo is formidable with a lightsaber, which is also true for both Luke and Anakin.

It states Kylo is skilled in the context of his close similarity to his ancestors. Saying "formidable" was just some arbitrary description with no context as to it's meaning seems so far-fetched to me when it's in the context of such an explicit comparison.

Are these comments identical in your mind?

"Much like the Hulk, The Thing is incredibly powerful."

"Hulk is incredibly powerful. The Thing is incredibly powerful."

This could simply be referring to raw power.

It states he's one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, which isn't the same he's one of the most powerful in the Force users (not that you said they're the same). That means if you ranked all the characters overall in combative ability, taking sabers and Force into account, Kylo would be close to the top. Now, you're right that he might be that high by virtue of his Force attacks and not necessarily lightsaber skill, so I'll agree with that.

I just wanted to clarify that in case you're thinking that quote merely says he's one of the strongest in the Force - what's it's saying is he's one of the best in the verse in combat.

How is it better than anything Maul has ever done? Maul was superior to the likes of Jinn and Kenobi combined. What makes Vader so much better than Maul in lightsaber combat that Maul cannot contend?

There's a sleight of hand in your last question here - the burden of proof is not on me to say that TPM Maul cannot replicate ESB Luke's feats. It's simply the case that ESB Luke has better feats than anything TPM Maul has done, and therefore Kylo's superiority to the former means he's similarly better than Maul. Where's your proof that TPM Maul could contend with Vader?

Where was it stated TPM Maul was superior to Jinn and Kenobi combined? He contended with the duo but he didn't beat them. He beat Jinn and Kenobi separately.

What makes beating Ren so good? He snaps the neck of some fodder jedi who was completely unaware? How is that better than beating one of the most respectable members of the jedi order when it came to lightsaber combat?

I included Ren's TK feat because I thought you might believe in passive TK shields, in which case killing Jedi would be impressive.

Ren had the upper hand on Voe in The Rise of Kylo Ren. Voe was capable of battling the Knights of Ren on her own throughout the Kylo vs Tai fight, and then the Kylo vs Ren fight. The Knights of Ren were capable of stomping troupes of soldiers and basically parade around the Galaxy destroying any fighting force they came across.

Comparatively speaking Kenobi and Jinn have basically no fighting feats aside from beating your basic B-1 droids. The point I'm making is that everyone likes to talk exclusively in terms of feats, but if you actually think back what exactly have Jinn and Kenobi done that makes fighting them so impressive?

We see Ren had the upper hand against Voe the last time they were engaged, and then Voe having the upper hand fighting the rest of the KoR. Ren leaves off-screen to pursue Ben and Tai.

The fight between Voe and the KoR continue until Ben turns to the dark side.

The Knights of Ren were capable of easily defeating troupes of soldiers sent after dangerous criminals. Their leader, Ren, shows that their modus operandi is to roam around and destroy everything they find in their travels - they're an enduring fighting force capable of defeating any opposition they come across throughout the Galaxy.

Kylo defeats Ren in a duel.

No Caption Provided

Additionally Kylo is capable of fighting three of Luke's students, even when one does some telepathic stuff to him (not fully explained from what I can tell), presumably due to their Force bond. He tries to flee to avoid hurting them.

What feats does TPM Maul, or Jinn and Kenobi have that beats this. A lot of the time people like to say Kylo has no feats and that kinda gets taken for granted but if we're comparing feats for feats, what exactly has TPM Maul done?

The fight makes it perfectly clear that Vader was holding back to an extent. At the beginning, it was Luke that was starting that battle, making the offensive moves. Vader has the chance to kill him at least once in the duel, but he does not kill him. The fact that Vader doesn't take these opportunities to kill him is convincing enough that he didn't go all-out. Vader trying to land killing blows could simply be him testing Luke, and had those killing blows landed, Luke would have been an 'unworthy' apprentice in a way.

Not fighting to kill isn't the same as holding back, especially considering Vader was only partially not fighting to kill. Vader was using all his skill to resist Luke's attacks and protect himself. So when Luke overwhelms him and tags him, I take that as a great feat for Luke. You'd have some kind of point if I used Luke blocking Vader's attacks as necessarily some great feat - but I'm using Luke overwhelming and tagging Vader as the feats.

Luke clearly improved in his performance throughout the duel. At first he got quickly disarmed and Vader commented that he was disappointing, then he centers himself and starts doing well and outmaneuvering Vader.

I would agree on the worthy stuff.

When was Vader getting overwhelmed? To my knowledge he was only overwhelmed once, and that was due to environment. Vader's suit allows him to be tagged without suffering serious consequences, logically he wouldn't be overly cautious with the knowledge that he can be tagged by a lightsaber with little consequence.

He got overwhelmed when Luke forced him off the platform they were fighting on and he lost his footing.

When you say it was because of environment, I think that's a bit of a misrepresentation. I don't think Vader just happened to forget where he was or let his guard down, his son simply drove him out of the arena. Using the environment is part of a duel and if we were to say, for the sake of comparison, that instead of a drop Vader's heel had been against a wall it's an unenviable position in a duel to literally have one's back against a wall. If if had been a wall and Luke had forced Vader's back against it, I think it's very possible Vader would've been in comparatively dire straights.

I'm pretty sure his suit is barely resistant to lightsabers and due to his neural connection to his limbs he would be very cautious about taking lightsaber blows. Which is why he screamed in pain and was incapacitated by Luke chopping his hand off in RotJ. Remember, in the initial movies lightsabers weren't as powerful as they are in modern times - I don't think Vader would take a strike like that in modern comics.

I mean, has there ever been another fight where Vader was tagged by a lightsaber? If it was part of his fighting style, as you're suggesting, wouldn't we have more examples.

Yes, TCW Maul did grow to eventually be superior to his TPM incarnation, but it would be difficult to believe that he surpassed that mere days after being restored. Let's not forget that Maul hadn't used a lightsaber in over a decade, and furthermore, suffered a disadvantage due to his legs, which would not bestow him with the speed and agility he once had. And like you said he was substantially amped, having just watched his master been killed in front of him. And in the end, Maul still beat him convincingly in less than a minute.

It's Sith magic bullshit that Maul was restored in the first place, so I don't think you can really suppose anything. His mind was healed as part of the process, so his technical martial skill with the blade should've been maintained, but increased rage and power in the Force led to his improvement as a duelist.

I would imagine those legs were a boost because of how he was doing these weird 360 degrees spin kicks against Kenobi that wouldn't be possible with his previous body. Additionally, Maul's legs are seemingly more agile than his old ones - Kenobi is a physical peer and Maul outpaced him when he saved Savage from Obi-Wan's blade after killing Adi. You could maybe argue they're clunkier and require more space than his old ones, and harder to manage for that reason, but in sheer agility and explosive power they should be superior.

TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage doesn't compare to the amount of rage TPM Kenobi felt. TCW Kenobi drawing on his rage is from an event that happened over a decade ago, TPM Kenobi's rage is fresh from an event that happened only seconds before. This isn't comparable.

You generally have a strong argument here. I would counter by saying that judging the rage he felt in both instances from his mental state right afterwards would actually point to TCW rage being greater than TPM. In TPM he centered himself and regained his composure to chop Maul in half, whereas in TCW he elected to flee because he couldn't regain his emotional balance. Now, I will say that on the face of it it does make more sense that TPM rage was superior to TCW rage, so I'm fairly undecided.

You could say that TCW Kenobi is superior to TPM Kenobi to the extent that it makes up for it but that's kinda shaky. I suppose you could shift the argument to saying that intuitively a rage amp for Kenobi would not be greater than the decades of growth up until TCW (and his growth rate is massive considering he maintained rough parity with The Chosen One for much of his life) and TCW Maul is roughly equal to TCW Kenobi.

Yes power tends to relate to duelling ability, but it isn't directly proportional as you are saying. Dooku showed that he was able to ragdoll Obi Wan pretty easily, but on their fight on Mustafar, Anakin was unable to do the same. Anakin beat Dooku in a lightsaber battle.

Kenobi was TK'ed mid-strike, whereas against Anakin he initiated his Force attack at the same time as his assailant.

Here:

''The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once, flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.''

'Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.''

''He was skilled, Anakin saw-more skilled, perhaps, than the men he faced. And he was confident in a way that was disturbing. He would not be overcome easily.''

He was generally portrayed as superior to Qui Gon and Obi Wan at once.

I'm pretty sure scripts aren't canon, they're just the blueprints of a movie but whatever happens on-screen is the real canon. For instance, in the ESB script, ESB Luke protects himself with the Force to deflect Vader's projectiles, whereas in the movie he is shown to have no counter.

Is the TPM novel canon under Disney?

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Omnidirectional may have been an exaggeration, but it is still an incredibly impressive feat nonetheless.

I would definitely say that's a better feat than I expected. I don't think it matches up to the combat feats I showed above, though.

Vader stomped Luke the moment he tagged him, it took mere seconds to cut his hand off.

Yeah, but Luke was already on the heavy back-foot and retreated instead of committing to an assault against Vader. You're right that Vader won as soon as Luke was literally standing on a tiny outcropping but clearly he struggled to defeat Luke and was tagged because of it.

Luke landed one strike on a holding back Vader. In the first minute of the fight, Vader pretty easily disarmed him, which indicates considerable superiority.

What says Vader wasn't trying to kill, but that wouldn't explain him letting himself get tagged.

Luke improved over the course of their fight.

Based on what? Yes they are proportional, but not directly. Being more powerful than someone will not warrant your superiority as a lightsaber duelist to them. Maul was actively trained in lightsaber combat by Palpatine throughout his time as an apprentice, while that didn't seem to be the case for Dooku or Vader. Based on what is Vader so far above Maul in lightsaber combat? Yes, he is considerably more powerful, but at best, Vader is noticeably better.

Because you haven't presented any arguments that Vader is dis-proportionality weak, or Maul dis-proportionality strong, in terms of lightsaber combat compared to their power in the Force? For instance, you could argue that Rey or Luke are dis-proportionality weak because of their relatively lack of training. Why would Maul be stronger, or Vader be weaker, so that their huge difference in power generally would not manifest in terms of lightsaber combat?

Dooku had decades more training than Maul under the Jedi Order. He was apprenticed to Yoda himself, someone who would presumably have more technical knowledge of lightsaber combat than Palpatine because of his advanced age. Similarly, Vader was trained by the Jedi Order and was a veteran of the Clone Wars. Saying they suffered a lack of training compared to Maul is a bit of a stretch - do you have any evidence showing the martial training Maul went through?

Dave Filoni: ''Maul is a super dangerous threat. Because he has been trained for years. He’s really adept. So he’s kind of in the Vader realm. He’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways. Not the least of which is manipulation.''

George Lucas: "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

These multiple sources place Maul on Vader's level, with even one source stating this before The Clone Wars show.

Those refer to TCW Maul don't they? Aside from Lucas's word, which means nothing to New Canon.

Correct, but it still allows for less powerful characters to be better duelists than more their superiors in raw power.

Can you give me some examples? I agree with this in principle it's just that in practice I basically think that actualized power and connection to the Force, in practice, trumps everything else when comparing people who're training in lightsaber combat.

I look at people like Savage, Rey and Luke and can't help but feel Force ability means much more than training. Even within fights wide advantages can appear when one party changes their mental state - this suggests connection the Force overshadows the nuances of martial arts skills.

Vader made it abundantly clear that he could have swiftly ended Luke whenever he wanted to at multiple points in the duel:

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Vader seemingly going for death blows is just him probing and pushing Luke. He does the same thing in ROTJ, and Dooku does it to Anakin in ROTS. Neither was actually trying to kill, because they wanted and needed to recruit their opponents.

Luke improved over the course of the duel on Bespin. That was why at first Vader reflected that Luke wasn't that impressive but when he started learning and outmaneuvering Vader he reflected that Luke was in fact "most impressive". Even just visually you can see that Luke performed much better later on than that one exchange you posted would suggest.

Are we really showing two blows before the fight ends to show Vader could've finished Luke whenever he wanted? Why not show the last few blows of Anakin vs Dooku or Maul vs Qui-Gon while we're at it? Luke gave Vader a fight, drove him back at times, but was ultimately himself driven into a corner and defeated. Luke got his licks in and we should deal with it.

Vader seemingly going for death blows is just him probing and pushing Luke. He does the same thing in ROTJ, and Dooku does it to Anakin in ROTS. Neither was actually trying to kill, because they wanted and needed to recruit their opponents.

There's a difference between throwing strikes at someone on level ground, that you can reasonably expect they will block because of your prior experience, and trying to use stealth to chop someone head off like a movie serial killer or committing to forceful swings against someone when they're balancing on tiny outcropping of metal. Vader ultimately wanted to subdue Luke and overwhelm him but he was using lethal force in his attacks, even if it was his intention to relent just when Luke was on the brink of death if the flow of the fight allowed for that.

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Void_Reborn

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Still Maul

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lichvanastrea

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Maul takes it.

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MattyBoi

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Maul slaughters.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#95  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@alphaq:

When it says Kylo has formidable lightsaber skills, it's doing so in the context of a comparison with his uncle and grandfather. I don't see how you can differentiate the statement that Kylo has formidable skill with the one the he is much like his ancestors - they're clearly trying to confer knowledge about Kylo's skill relative to them. People seem to be dodging bullets when it comes to what is clearly supposed to be a comparison between the three.

It states Kylo is skilled in the context of his close similarity to his ancestors. Saying "formidable" was just some arbitrary description with no context as to it's meaning seems so far-fetched to me when it's in the context of such an explicit comparison.

Nope, because it's not comparing Kylo's lightsaber skills to those of Anakin & Luke. It's comparing Kylo to Luke and Anakin, by pointing out similar traits. Kylo is much like Luke and Anakin in that he possesses formidable lightsaber skills, as they also possess formidable lightsaber skills. The context is that Kylo, Luke and Anakin share a similar trait, and it's that all three possess formidable lightsaber skills.

It's not Kylo's lightsaber skills are much like Anakin & Luke's, it's Kylo is much like Anakin & Luke because he has formidable lightsaber skills. Stop pretending otherwise. You're reaching immensely here, as with all your points -- ESB Luke being better than Maul, Vader actually trying to kill Luke...

Pop quiz, mind telling me how you read the following statements, Erkanbeater and Lord Tenebrous?

Statement: "Much like the Hulk, Spider-Man has superhuman strength."

Question: In you eyes does this statement seem to imply parity between The Hulk and Spider-Man? Or in you mind is this statement identical to "The Hulk has superhuman strength. Spider-Man has superhuman strength."?

No it does not, and if you think it does, that's your own failure to comprehend the text. Saying that two people are similar in that they have a similar attribute is not the same as saying the extent of that attribute is similar.

I would counter by saying that judging the rage he felt in both instances from his mental state right afterwards would actually point to TCW rage being greater than TPM. In TPM he centered himself and regained his composure to chop Maul in half, whereas in TCW he elected to flee because he couldn't regain his emotional balance. Now, I will say that on the face of it it does make more sense that TPM rage was superior to TCW rage, so I'm fairly undecided.

This doesn't make any sense. TPM Kenobi's rage jumped him from being fodder to Maul to being better. TCW Kenobi's rage took him from holding the upper hand over Maul to being stomped. One was a massive amp, one was a massive hindrance. They aren't comparable.

Luke improved over the course of the duel on Bespin. That was why at first Vader reflected that Luke wasn't that impressive but when he started learning and outmaneuvering Vader he reflected that Luke was in fact "most impressive".

Never happened. Vader complimented Luke's skills from the start, right before the first clip I showed. He later said Luke's abilities were most impressive because he jumped out of the pit before he could be frozen -- after rolling into it to begin with. It as nothing to do with anything in terms of his combative prowess.

Are we really showing two blows before the fight ends to show Vader could've finished Luke whenever he wanted? Why not show the last few blows of Anakin vs Dooku or Maul vs Qui-Gon while we're at it?

Luke tagged Vader, booked it, and when they clashed again, Vader was pissed and nigh instantly disarmed him. Incredibly clear cut display.

Luke gave Vader a fight,

Headcanon.

drove him back at times,

Because Vader was deliberately playing around with him, trying to get Luke to give into his anger.

Luke got his licks in and we should deal with it.

Luke was toyed with by an unserious Vader who stomped him st multiple points on the fight. At no point did he ever try to kill Luke, unless you haven't seen the OT.

There's a difference between throwing strikes at someone on level ground, that you can reasonably expect they will block because of your prior experience, and trying to use stealth to chop someone head off like a movie serial killer or committing to forceful swings against someone when they're balancing on tiny outcropping of metal.

There's no difference between seemingly trying to kill someone in a fight and seemingly trying to kill someone in a fight. We know for a fact that Vader needed to recruit Luke, his son, and that was the whole point of keeping him alive that long and acting so casually. Vader seemingly going for death blows is just him trying to push Luke, which he does in ROTJ, and Dooku does to Ventress & Anakin when testing them.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@alphaq:

And, as to Martin's statements ranging from factual statement to personal opinion:

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Hence, why he provides definitive answers for people's questions on a regular basis.

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AlphaQ

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@alphaq:

And, as to Martin's statements ranging from factual statement to personal opinion:

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This supports my point that none of Matt Martin's Tweets are canon. You made the claim that when he says something explicitly on Twitter they're canonical statements, which he explicitly rejects here.

What he's saying is that his Tweets are not an official source, and in his Tweets he will make statements of fact and express personal opinions. But neither of these things have canonical weight because they're not from an official source.

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Hence, why he provides definitive answers for people's questions on a regular basis.

Yeah, Matt has an official say on what is canon but he outright says his Tweets are not an expression of that. Additionally, I think it's fairly clear from the tone of that Tweet that he's joking around with a fan - unless the point is that he's actually thinking about giving that Twitter random his own Star Wars movie.

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Stillllllllll Maul

Verryyyy eassillllyyyyy

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Now that it’s TROS, Ben wins with high difficulty. He is good enough to hold Maul off with sabers and stronger in the force.