Ben Kenobi vs Mace Windu

Death or KO.

Battle on Tatooine.

Mace is still better in every way.

Nuh uh! Ben is clearly a match for Vader who stomps everyone but Sidious. Ben beat Maul in 3 strikes. He is stated to be more powahful to his clone wars days. You just dont know.

Ben Kenobi dies via horrible choreography

@sirfizzwhizz: Did you create this thread just to make a joke?

Mace

Ofcourse not. He is so much more powerful and equal with Vader. He one shot Maul who as Old Maul is way stronger than SoD Maul ever was. Ben beat him in three moves! Fap fap fap fapfapfapfap............

In all seriousness, that seems to be the mindset these days. So how does he match up with Mace now?

Just stop adding to the hysteria with these bait threads.

Meh, seems like most SW fans see Ben as Vader level easy now and days.

@sirfizzwhizz: He was always Vader level, in sabers at least. No idea what you're talking about.

I mean, Ben could probably hold his own and give Mace something of a fight...

...he still dies though.

many feel Vader > Mace in dueling too. So whats your point?

@sirfizzwhizz: Not sure about many, but so far, I haven't seen a convincing case for it.

Especially since this is Canon, Mace is legitimately capable of contending with Palpatine. What reason do we have to believe that Vader could do the same?

I agree.

Is this based on the lack of information about their fight? That just makes it a grey area.

Great for TCW Maul :)

Ofcourse not. He is so much more powerful and equal with Vader. He one shot Maul who as Old Maul is way stronger than SoD Maul ever was. Ben beat him in three moves! Fap fap fap fapfapfapfap............

In all seriousness, that seems to be the mindset these days. So how does he match up with Mace now?

Mace stomps him. Are you satisfied now? Are you happy?

Now stop making threads on Ben when we know literally nothing about him apart from the fact that he is > than his ROTS self.

And really I don't think that's the mindset at all. Far from it, it is being denied on CV in literally every way possible by most, right from arguments like "It was PIS" to arguments like "Old Maul would be destroyed by his younger self".

How many people on this thread have actually said that Ben wins? As of now when I am typing this- zero. Myself included( for now at least).

Mace Windu

I don't think there's any reason to believe that Mace would lose this.

@darthduelist9: not really as their fight in sod happened prior to labyrinth of evil where windu was still dooku level and before a significant growth for mace in rots when he confronts sidious. Not to mention that tcw has already shown us maul can't remotely compete with sidious with even when enraged sidious being able to speed up at will at will. Also in canon tcw maul is tied to being an inferior of rebels maul thanks to uncomtradicted authority. Additionally tcw maul as a duelist was outmatched by tcw kenobi who even as of rots was an inferior to dooku as a duelist despite unfavorable circumstances which puts maul below dooku who himself is(at least if you go with @shootingnova's argument) below rots windu.

Edit:@shootingnova, Actually IIRC considering the yoda rendezvous quote, the quote says windu can fight with dooku as an equal which doesn't mean he can't fight as above an equal or that dooku can fight with windu as an equal. Furthermore the quote seems to refer to yoda also being able to fight equal and we know that the opposite isn't true, So I'd argue that mace could have surpassed dooku even as of dark rendezvous

Well, no, given that Lucas has explicitly stated that Mace can compete with the Emperor. In the absence of compelling evidence that this is solely due to circumstances, we can conclude that Mace is simply that good (we can actually make that conclusion in Legends as well, but that's a discussion for a another time).

It doesn't say Mace was the only one who could fight Dooku as an equal, it says Mace was Dooku's only equal on neutral ground.

But it's not like the quote's outright binding or anything, given that it's still a character opinion. I just hold it to be a valid and reliable opinion given that it comes from Yoda.

@shootingnova: oh fair enough then, I misremembered the quote

@shootingnova: Yes I know Lucas said that, but he was unclear on what circumstances. Just because he doesn't say Mace needs to be amped to compete doesn't entirely rule out that idea. I think this is a grey area in Canon.

@yousufkhan1212:

Something not being stated doesn't make it plausible or reasonable to assume.

@yousufkhan1212: There's nothing grey if no case can be made for Mace being amped, lol. Simple logic and Occam's Razor would dictate that we take the simplest interpretation of Lucas' claim, which is simply that Mace could indeed compete with the Emperor. Which is hardly shocking considering he's at least as good of a duelist as Dooku, who held his own against Yoda. Mace being more powerful than Dooku in the Force isn't impossible to believe either.

Holy shit! A SW expert who legit believes that Dooku "held his own" for a time vs Yoda as legit?

@sirfizzwhizz: I've always believed that, lol.

You are a wise man. I dont care what the other haters say about you.

Isn't Mace also bordering on level 9 per Gillard? It would give more support to Mace being able to contend with Palps.

not much info to go on but I think obi takes it 5.5/10. Mace had an amp vs palps, and vader can hold his own against palps better than dooku did against yoda.

Just starting to get into the whole Star Wars stuff (outside the movies that is), but from what I've read around the site, Mace should win here.

@sirfizzwhizz: Heck, it's not even down to belief. It's a fact.

Yep. In fact, Gillard has claimed prior to that interview that Mace is a 9. Either way, nothing unusual about him contending with Palpatine, since Dooku (an 8) was able to contend with Yoda (9). Obviously you can make a very strong case for Tyranus also bordering on 9, but Mace is still at least as good as that. There's really just no way around it.

@sirfizzwhizz: That's why i've always believed, a few of the debaters notion's on opponents being one shotted, as ludicrous. Yet you here the argument again and again, that e.g. ROTS Sidious would one shot Valkorian.

Mace wins, but it isn't a stomp.

Or Yoda "Blitzes" everyone not Sidious level. Sad.

@sirfizzwhizz: I think you are underestimating Kenobi. He should be around the same level as Vader, though I think Mace has a chance at beating Vader. Ben would lose to both Mace and Vader, but by this time he has become a legit master who is most likely more intuned and enlightened with the force than either Vader or Mace. Kenobi's biggest draw back is his lack of raw power.

yea mace takes it, but I doubt its a stomp. Scaling of a superior version of maul in canon, kenobi could well be dooku level here if not better(though he also could be below).

By skill? Sure. However his skill is nothing different than his height in ROTS who was also younger and had better shown force abilities.

younger=/better, not when we have authority making clear that his older version was better

And "better shown force abilities" isn't an argument when ben kenobi has never shown his force abilities

@kbroskywalker:

younger=/better, not when we have authority making clear that his older version was better

Many authors state stupid shit all the time for comic characters and manga characters. Nothing different about the stupid shit said for SW characters either. Feats > Statements. Add to this, there is plenty of contradicting statements anyway for where Ben ranks from the original past authors. Statements are only useful to back feats. Not the other way around.

Thus why most of your arguments fall on deaf ears.

And "better shown force abilities" isn't an argument when ben kenobi has never shown his force abilities

Not my problem. Until he does, we have to go with facts and not assumptions.

@freesid_stf123: Yeah but IIRC that was a reference to duelling, and Mace was stated to be an 8 that's borderlined 9, there's actually a huge difference insides the numbers themselves because they were based on Richter scales.

@shootingnova

So, would Mace stomp this?

@lordofthelight: Hmmmmm. I suppose you could make the Mace=Dooku argument and call it that. Mace is his superior overall. Let's get that out of the way.

But Mace and Dooku are very different fighters. Mace for instance tends to go for blasts rather than ragdolls. And we've seen Kenobi defend against attacks of that type and magnitude in Mustafar Anakin as a low 9.

An interesting note is the way Vaapad flows from one move to the other. Against Grievous' Kenobi was able to employ a series of moves to disrupt the pattern of Grievous' strikes. Slowing him down.

Combine that with Kenobi's passive aggressive counters and physical strikes and you have real potential for Kenobi to win this in a marathon. Especially given that (to be blunt) Kenobi's force sense has a better track record for deciding fights than Mace's shatterpoint.

But that's RotS Kenobi. SWR/Ben Kenobi?

I don't see him pulling off an attrition strategy with his wrecked physicals. Mace takes this. I don't see any reason he would stomp.

Mace wins.

Mace wins in pretty much everything

@sirfizzwhizz:

By skill? Sure. However his skill is nothing different than his height in ROTS who was also younger and had better shown force abilities.

Why would you say he has better force abilities when he was younger? He should of became stronger in his immortality training. He doesn't have the stamina or agility he used to, but there is nothing showing he dropped in force power. That doesn't make much sense. Training in the force is really all he could do in the desert.

@alextheboss: then shown me one feat of TK that matches ROTS Kenobi. Training all day in Jedi mind tricks and force Ghost status does not translate to TK uses in the desert.