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#1 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben 10 has his first 10 aliens only ( Cannonbolt instead of Ghostfreak ) and normal everything else

Percy has Riptide, Tyson's Shield, Winged Shoes ( full control ), Achilles Curse, 10 explosive spears,The 5th Legion's Eagle and a can of Nectar

Both are in character

No prep

Full info

Morals off

Fight is in Central Park near the lake

Who wins and why?

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#2 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#3 Posted by Kingshark (179 posts) - - Show Bio

Without morals I'd say Ben wins if he can transform into an alien in time. He should be able to beat Percy.

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#4 Posted by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben easily.

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#5 Posted by Hyperlight (7671 posts) - - Show Bio

ben

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#6 Posted by Lord_Johnathan (3304 posts) - - Show Bio

In before Joewell pits Percy against people like Samus Aran, Abaddon the Despoiler, or a Culture Gel-Suit.

And Ben roflstomps on account of power versatility and actually having some abilities that would genuinely put him above street level. Give me an Apache Longbow gunship, and if I were to use it on Ben, he would likely survive unless the Omnitrix decided to screw him over. If I were to unload with it's firepower on Percy, well, Poseidon's going to be in mourning.

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#7 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (2267 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben via speedblitz.

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#8 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@UltimateHero0406: @Lord_Johnathan: I disagree with both statements Percy has been shown to block bullets and react with superhuman speed sure he couldnt outrun Xlr8 but if he came close he sure as heck would cut his legs off. Plus in case you didnt know achilles curse makes him nigh invulnerable Percy would stomp.

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#9 Posted by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben.

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#10 Posted by tomlikesfries (5341 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben easily

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#11 Posted by ShadowPro (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

what harm has he ever done to you?

ben stomps so hard, he totaly rapes the poor little percy

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#12 Posted by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

Diamondhead Ends this battle.

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#13 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: I need at least one of you to present a decent argument instead of just saying ben wins. None of his original aliens can beat percy especially when hes invulnerable. His blade has cut GODS and celestial bronze is magic so diamond head wont be a problem. I mentioned already that Xlr8 wouldnt be able to speed blitz due to god level reaction time. Gray matter couldnt even hide due to percy's extra perception senses, Four arms dosent have the skill nor agility to keep up and he would end up as no arms. With the shoes percy can fly so stink fly dosent have a hope in this world. Heat blast might be a bit more of a challenge but percy can summon water where there is no water and create winds and waves powerfull enough to block out HYPERION the second strongest titan's heat light energy, Rip Jaws wouldnt even be a factor as percy could remove the water from his gills and kill him or chop his head off our just control him since hes a sea creature. Wild mutt? oh please the mangy mutt dosent even compare to hell hounds or giants and percy has been shown to kill a minatour with his bare hands. Canon bolt would be the most trouble but again I say God slicing Titan killing giant felling mystical sword. Plus percy can use the nectar to heal and not to mention the eagle shoots flipping God lightening HE wouldnt even need to use the exploding spears. Oh last and maybe least Upgrade wouldnt have anything to adapt and percy would just drown him.

So pleas before you just say Ben wins or Ben stomps at least use logic. Because from hat I see "Ben" dosent have a prayer. Total Percy Stomp

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#14 Edited by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: I need at least one of you to present a decent argument instead of just saying ben wins. None of his original aliens can beat percy especially when hes invulnerable. His blade has cut GODS and celestial bronze is magic so diamond head wont be a problem.

Diamond head can create a sharp diamond blade from the ground to instantly kill percy.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: I mentioned already that Xlr8 wouldnt be able to speed blitz due to god level reaction time.

This is a pretty stupid argument, Having a god levels reaction time does not help against something that moves so fast you cannot see it. Spidermans reaction time is very very good ( Better than percys), So by your logic The Flash would be useless against spiderman?. Nice argument.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: Gray matter couldnt even hide due to percy's extra perception senses

Why would ben use gray matter to hide?. Gray matter is a genius capable of creating something to render percy useless.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman:Four arms dosent have the skill nor agility to keep up and he would end up as no arms.

Yet one clap from fourarms would send percy flying for miles, Let alone a punch.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman:With the shoes percy can fly so stink fly dosent have a hope in this world.

I'm sure the winged sandals will help against stink fly's slime which not only sticks to percy, but is enough to make him hallucinate. Not to mention stinkflys stength and tail ( Which can cut through the strongest steel).

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: Heat blast might be a bit more of a challenge but percy can summon water where there is no water and create winds and waves powerfull enough to block out HYPERION the second strongest titan's heat light energy,

From the time it takes percy to summon the water, I can list maybe about 100+ ways heatblast could kill Percy. Also do you honestly think heatblast will stand there while percy floods the area with water?.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman:Wild mutt? oh please the mangy mutt dosent even compare to hell hounds or giants and percy has been shown to kill a minatour with his bare hands.

Um lets see, A mutt with increased strength, Super agility, Super senses, and a mutt which one bite could effortlessly kill percy.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: Canon bolt would be the most trouble but again I say God slicing Titan killing giant felling mystical sword. Plus percy can use the nectar to heal and not to mention the eagle shoots flipping God lightening HE wouldnt even need to use the exploding spears.

Canon bolt IS too fast for percy, He can hit percy and severely cripple him, all within one hit. He wouldnt even give percy time to think before he attacked again.

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: @tomlikesfries: @hudyman: Oh last and maybe least Upgrade wouldnt have anything to adapt and percy would just drown him.

So pleas before you just say Ben wins or Ben stomps at least use logic. Because from hat I see "Ben" dosent have a prayer. Total Percy Stomp

Drown upgrade?- This is not even worth me commenting on.

I only ask that you yourself use logic, Anyone who knows about ben would know that he has been crippled in order to make this a fair fight for percy. He wouldn't even last 10 minutes against the ben from alien force, let alone ultimate alien.

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#15 Posted by thefusescape (203 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a huge percy jackson/heroes of olympus etc. fan but he is not that good.

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#16 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@hudyman: Tsk Tsk Tsk

First off percy also has earth powers and has dodged much quicker and unpredictable things as such that spike would be easy to just side step and if thats all diamond head can do to try and stop him then he is as good as dead

2} Flash is someone who moves at faster than light/time and dimensional speed. Xlr8 on his BEST day is at max super sonic. And this is the xlr8 that has been tagged by some humans, and many non super speed aliens. If he came to speed hit percy instead of sticking out his arm and tripping him percy would chop his head of and as I'm sure one of Xlr8's biggest problems was turning and split second moves so the fight would end there. I'm not saying that reflexes beat speed all the time but it has been shown that a properly trained warrior can react fast enough to tag faster foes and keep in mind it isnt a race it's combat so yeah Xlr8 + running to attack percy= death.

3} Grey matter would need material and this is a park at most he would have street lamps and if ben made the mistake of shrinking himself down that low a simple wave sweep would end him

4} Yes because four arms is the only giant monster percy has ever fought. Percy has fought giants and monsters stronger by far than four arms at the begining of the series he used his arms to kill a minatour which isnt exactly a simple feat. Percy has been shown to dodge monsters with 10's of hands who can crumble mountains in one punch. Heck he even got hit by them a bunch of times and yet he just got up brushed himself off and kept fighting. Four arms would be the easiest of the 10 as four well timed sweeps with the blade and it would be all over.

5} Stink fly's stink is not the fastest, nor the most accurate, nor even the most subtle attack. It is painfully obvious anytime he is about to spray and only regular humans or stalled aliens get caught percy has dodged barrages of spears and he can detect to a degree muscle movement it would be child's play for him to dodge stinkflys goop/ Plus even if and this is a big IF. He gets hit he can use water to purge and heal himself. Plus you mention the tail like its a threat. That tail is like a bee stinger it is painfully obvious and easy to dodge plus it can only attack in one direction and in a certain way plus percy's sword is much more powerfull so yeah.

6}Now I know I said four arms would be the easiest but thinking back on it it may be heat blast. WHy? because first of all percy is nvulnerable which is a BIG advantage one that I dont even think he should have as it is overkill and even without the invulnerability because of the ocean power in his blood he can take alot of heat no problem. He has been literally drowned in lava and the only damage to show was one tiny little burn. Plus you make it seem like him attacking with water takes time, he can use water with a simple thought or flick of a finger and again I say his water can drench Titan level heat so heatblas would be no problem plus when fighting he subconsciously when neccesary creates tornadoses. Plus he would only need to weaken and distract heatblast then chop his head of easy.

7} Um lets see the minatour a half man half bull monster with increased strenght, speed, super agility and senses that can kill with a hit. Percy beat that with no training and no weapons. Hell hounds monsters the size of cars and tanks with all the skills mentioned before as well as skin that is tough enough to block bullets steel and other dangerous things. And they are fodder characters for percy. So yeah wild mutt would be nooooo problem

8} Percy could 1] bind canonbolt in water 2] wait for him to get close then chop his shell of 3] fly into the air and kill him from a vantage point. He has more than enough ways to kill canon bolt

9} you make it sound like upgrade cannot drown or be shorted out what with him being an electrical mechanical being.

At the end of the day Percy is a super fast, strong demigod with godly reflexes and skills that have allowed him to do even combat with the God of War. He has spent his life fighting demons and monsters by the dozen much worse than the one baddy ben fought at a time with help from his cousin and gramps. Percy has fought God's Titans, and Demons. Ben 10 wont be a problem.

Heck he dosent even need the curse or spears or even the eagle to win this fight. He can heal himself by standing in water or drinking nectar with all of thesae attachments its over kill. Regular percy with only riptide and the sandals would win, Invulnerable percy stomps.

@thefusescape: Evidently you do not know percy that well.

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#17 Posted by lolcattz (93 posts) - - Show Bio

percy jackson fanboys? thats a new one

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#18 Posted by Caionsouza (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben stomps

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#19 Edited by ShadowPro (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim

everything you just said is just a wall of text painted with nonesense

all of percy's feats are nothing compared to one of ben, the fuy have saved universe, percy only returned a lightning to his father, ben can do that with no help

I saw the movie and I can tell you he s not that special, just be cause he is a "god" doesn't mean he is invincible

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#20 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShadowPro: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. OH my God now that was funny. Did you actually say "I saw the movie" Oh my God, you are aware that the movie is rubbish and barely covers a few things that happen in book 1 and this is so far an 8 book series. So please before you go off on a tangent and start arguing about stuff you really don't know either read up on the character or at least read the OP. Percy wins this easy and btw ben has never saved the world on his own and the villians he has fought to save the world are nothing compared to percy's villians the only threat he ever truly faced was from dagon and dagon empowered vilgax so please.

@Caionsouza: Again I ask please give reasoning because I have already explained how percy takes out each one of his ten aliens and nobody has replied with a reasonable argument.

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#21 Edited by ShadowPro (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim:

so that crappy movie is from a book? that's what they call literature now? twilight was a thing but this?

I can't belive it

even thoguh, percy has nothing that can be compared to ben, NOTHING, so the lol is on you for actually belive he can beat him

@morgrim said:

Again I ask please give reasoning because I have already explained how percy takes out each one of his ten aliens and nobody has replied with a reasonable argument.

we are being reasonable, you are the fanboy here who doesn't want to acept that percy can't possibly win, the only possible way is if he has vilgax-like strenght and moves faster than light, and I don't think he can do such thing

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#22 Posted by BlueComet (1081 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a curbstomp in Percy's favor.

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#23 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShadowPro: First off you just admitted that you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about percy so you really shouldnt even be commenting on this thread. Secondly it is a known fact that the movie never does the book justice. The twilight books were much better than the movies and the percy jackson series is a bestseller, with lots of acclaim and such but obviously you do not know that because it is clear that you have never picked up a percy jackson book in your life, but yet you count your opinion as valid in this argument simply because you watched a cheap 1 to 3 hour movie.

Also strength wise percy jackson is super strong not vilgax strong but it dosent matter Ben has fought countless people physically weaker than four arms and yet he still lost spectacularly. Its not and arm wrestling match or a race its a battle so percy isnt going to try to out muscle four arms or diamond head, he has faced far too many giants to know that dosent work. He is going to dodge them and use his skill and blade to cut them to pieces because ben's skill dosent even compare to percy's. And btw Xlr8 is nowhere near lightspeed he is supersonic at best and even if he was percy's reflexes have been proven to react with super speed fighters. Xlr8 cant speed blitz because from he gets in range he is going to lose his head and Four arms isnt going to be crushing percy because percy isnt going to stand still and get hit he is going to move with his lightening fast reflexes that he uses evey day to kill monsters and he is going to end four arms

And please dont try to validate your argument by calling me a fanboy because there is only one person here who actually put up a decent argument for ben and I already replied to that you and others have yet to say more than "Ben stomps" of "Ben ftw" so please dont reply unless you have something valid and sensible to say.

@BlueComet: At least someone else is thinking rationally

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#24 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (1012 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy wins, unless Ben transforms into alien x. Percy is invulnerbale with the curse of styx. The curse of styx also grants him super fast reflexes and incredible strength, Percy was able to lift a minotaur weighing around 1 ton and throw that minotaur atleast 100 meteres into a bridge so hard that the bridge collapsed. He took out an army of monsters.

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#25 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@Epicbeast3000: The OP says its ben with his original ten aliens except instead of ghostfreak he has canonbolt

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#26 Posted by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim: You keep saying Gods and Titans as if ben has never fought anyone universal level. I'd love to see Percy handle even half the aliens ben takes on a daily basis.

Can you not see That this battle has been structured to give the win to percy. The only reason you can even provide so much as an argument for percy is because he is dealing with ben 10s Original Aliens. And its not even like they are fighting in a building or on top of a mountain or anything like that, the OP made it near a lake.

If you strongly believe that percy on on Ben's level, Then please create a battle with percy against Ben 10 ultimate alien/ Alien force/ Omniverse and we will see the result. Heck even a battle with the original ben 10 with access to all the aliens he unlocked, Ben wolf,Ditto,eye guy,wildvine,upchuck, way big etc

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#27 Posted by morgrim (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

@hudyman:

I am just making an argument based on the setting porvided by the OP and in that situation Percy would win. And btw Percy could actually handle with ease most of ben's villians not that ben himself is weak but percy is just as strong if not stronger, there are only a few of ben's aliens that can beat percy and only because of unconventional abilities. For instance big chill would win mainly due to intagibility or the gravity guy due to gravity and alien X due to reality warping, and way big due to being way big { but in retrospect percy could possible take him} but all of bens other aliens whether from ultimate alien of alien force would be childs play for percy. And your right I think I should make another thread

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#28 Posted by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim: Please my friend, make the thread.

I cannot be bothered to argue about this on this thread,

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#29 Posted by ShadowPro (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@morgrim: ben obliterstomps with grey matter just the same way he took down a giant alien t rex that not even humongosaur could fight, with just a pinch, I'm sorry but this is a mismatch, it was a year ago and it is now even more

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#30 Posted by ialokin (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy would win here's why he has helped kill a primordial they are the kids of chaos way more powerful than anything Ben has faced plus, Ben is limited to his first 10. Percy has blown up mt. St. Hellens which is massive and he was only 14 when he did this he's now around 19-20 and has been though much more then Ben. Then you add in riptide witch is on par with Kronos's scythe and very old. Then Percy has survived a volcanic eruption which are more powerful than a nuke or anything Ben has face. But if you in clued personalities they would team up and kill every bad guy. So over all Percy has more experience than Ben which is why he has the win.

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#31 Edited by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by ourmanuel (11384 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn’t he invulnerable for the most part, with Achilles curse?

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#33 Posted by mrmonster (15142 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy Jackson

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#34 Posted by SocaJunkie (8405 posts) - - Show Bio

Mismatch, don’t know why this was made.

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#35 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Mismatch, don’t know why this was made.

In whose favor?

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#36 Posted by Subline (7798 posts) - - Show Bio

Spite mismatch lock.

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#37 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline said:

Spite mismatch lock.

For who?

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#38 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy Jackson

Any reasons as for why?

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#39 Posted by hudyman (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben slaughters.

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#40 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

From what i remember Diomond head would give Percy the most trouble but Percy would still body, he’s being heavily underestimated here.

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#41 Posted by Helloman (29710 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy Jackson wins.

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#42 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, no harm in bringing back a few old debates now is there!

@morgrim said:

@ShadowPro: First off you just admitted that you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about percy so you really shouldnt even be commenting on this thread. Secondly it is a known fact that the movie never does the book justice. The twilight books were much better than the movies and the percy jackson series is a bestseller, with lots of acclaim and such but obviously you do not know that because it is clear that you have never picked up a percy jackson book in your life, but yet you count your opinion as valid in this argument simply because you watched a cheap 1 to 3 hour movie.

Also strength wise percy jackson is super strong not vilgax strong but it dosent matter Ben has fought countless people physically weaker than four arms and yet he still lost spectacularly. Its not and arm wrestling match or a race its a battle so percy isnt going to try to out muscle four arms or diamond head, he has faced far too many giants to know that dosent work. He is going to dodge them and use his skill and blade to cut them to pieces because ben's skill dosent even compare to percy's. And btw Xlr8 is nowhere near lightspeed he is supersonic at best and even if he was percy's reflexes have been proven to react with super speed fighters. Xlr8 cant speed blitz because from he gets in range he is going to lose his head and Four arms isnt going to be crushing percy because percy isnt going to stand still and get hit he is going to move with his lightening fast reflexes that he uses evey day to kill monsters and he is going to end four arms

And please dont try to validate your argument by calling me a fanboy because there is only one person here who actually put up a decent argument for ben and I already replied to that you and others have yet to say more than "Ben stomps" of "Ben ftw" so please dont reply unless you have something valid and sensible to say.

@BlueComet: At least someone else is thinking rationally

I would like to address your point regarding XLR8. You stated that XLR8 is only capable of achieving supersonic speeds when in fact there are on screen feats of him being able to move way faster. Feats include him being able to make time appear like a complete time stop, while also include other feats such as dodging cloud to ground lightning (post-firing).

XLR8

Base Ball Stand Still Feat(8:22): http://watchcartoonsonline.to/watch/ben-10-season-03-episode-09_-_the_unnaturals/

Regarding the time standstill feat, it is imperative to note that not only did an entire crowd of people fail to notice a single thing that Ben was able to do, but at the stands and the benches were human disguised robots, under the commission of the forever knights, who would arguably, have better perception than regular humans. While FTE feats are generally frowned upon, mainly because they depend highly upon the situation, distance moved, perception of the enemies, and FOV that said character has ran across, it would be pretty hard to try and just throw away this feat as if it were nothing. Just note that low end calculations for this feat, by measuring how far the ball is able to move in perceived time, still puts XLR8 at around a hundred times the speed of sound!

Link for where the feat was calculated was done here: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Alakabamm/Ben_10_Baseball_speed_calc

If you still feel skeptical regarding this, I would just like you to take note that there are also other feats to help back this up. Said feats are also within the OS themselves.

Lightning Dodging Feat(10:05): http://watchcartoonsonline.to/watch/ben-10-season-03-episode-10_-_monster_weather/

Looking at the video it is pretty clear that Ben moved only after the lighting strike had already been deployed. Using Low and High end calculations for this feat tend to bump up XLR8's speed feats by another large margin. I will try to locate the link but I remember another User had used the ow-End of lighting for this and the result was still somewhere within the massively hyper sonic range.

Also take note that the lighting was produced by a device called (S.A.M) that was made to mimic natural weather phenomenons. So I think it is safe to assume that the lightning produced would fall within the speed range that natural lighting strikes tend to move at.

Toku'Star Lifting Feat(00:07): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PVNE1EgQgc

While although this is not from the OS, it think it just helps add onto the fact that XLR8 is much faster than you are giving him credit for! To'Kustars are generally nearing around 120 to 200 feet tall if you are to look across all their major appearances. The fact that he is able to create a powerful enough whirlwind, by running around it, should give a bit more clarity as to how fast XLR8 can actually move.

The main thing to remember about all of this is that XLR8 does not just move fast, but literally perceives the world in slow motion. Percy has faced some powerful and fast opponents, but none of them were moving several hundred times the speed of sound, or were moving so fast that time could appear to have completely stopped, or have ever moved around in a circle so fast that it causes a 120 feet tall giant to be hoisted into the air through the whirlwind alone!

The fact that XLR8 can perceive time in slow motion also means that Percy's reflexes will be unable to help him as XLR8's reflexes are much faster simply due to the fact that he both moves and perceives the world around him at the same speed.

So XLR8 would be a near automatic win for Ben as Percy would be unable to tag him or even perceive him! Other aliens I'll do for another time!

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#43 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump!

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#44 Edited by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkdementor101:

I could debate here from my knowledge but a CAV would be too much work digging up all the quotes from the books and whatnot.

The XLR8 feats seem really interesting but i just noticed Ben doesn’t start with an Alien and it’s morals off so nothing stops Percy from throwing riptide through Ben’s head before Ben can even process he’s in a fight

If we say been get‘s to choose an Alien and chooses XLR8 the curse of achilles and Percy’s natural durability would protected him from the initial blitz then the morals off Percy would drown all of Manhattan.

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#46 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13840 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy blitzes and cuts his head off before he can hit the watch. With full knowledge and morals off, Percy would know Ben hitting that watch would be bad news and absolutely has the massive speed advantage to end thrust fight before it’s a problem.

Or he just blood bends him or something like that.

Either way, Percy stomps. Morals on itd be close but Morals off Percy is too OP.

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#47 Edited by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest said:

@darkdementor101:

I could debate here from my knowledge but a CAV would be too much work digging up all the quotes from the books and whatnot.

The XLR8 feats seem really interesting but i just noticed Ben doesn’t start with an Alien and it’s morals off so nothing stops Percy from throwing riptide through Ben’s head before Ben can even process he’s in a fight

If we say been get‘s to choose an Alien and chooses XLR8 the curse of achilles and Percy’s natural durability would protected him from the initial blitz then the morals off Percy would drown all of Manhattan.

Regarding your first point, what you said regarding Ben not starting out transformed is true, and thus it was a mistake on my behalf! Hope you could forgive me for over looking that crucial point. However, regarding the second point where you stated that Percy could throw Riptide through Ben's head seems a bit off to me! Just to note, generally when debating with Percy the OP specifies whether or not Riptide would work on non-divine opponents! Unfortunately for us, to OP has done no such thing here. I'm a bit skeptical to say that Riptide works on Ben seeing as nothing about him strikes a semblance in a divine, mystical, or magical nature. I'm more inclined to believe that Riptide would simply just pass through Ben seeing as there is nothing about him that would entice such a response from Riptide.

Unfortunately for myself, because I love playing devil's advocate, I do think there are some points I should bring to your attention that could help in your argument: Ben's ancestry!

Since Ben's paternal grandmother is an Anodite, and Ben himself in the future timeline has shown that he does have an aptitude for magic, by accessing that side of his DNA, I also believe that there is sufficient evidence to claim that Ben could be affected by Riptide, since Mana in the Ben-Verse would equate to life energy, and would thus fall under magical/divine origins, which is the typical characteristic something requires to be affected by Riptide.

While although whether or not we should treat Riptide to work on Ben or not, I'll concede on that point for now and assume that Riptide will actually work or harming Ben and his aliens. However, there are other points in you address that I wish to counter, which was your statement regarding ' ... throwing Riptide through Ben's head ...'. I find a bit of a problem in this! Unfortunately for us, the OP has not specified any starting distance for the two combatants so it is kind of heard to determine whether or not Percy will be able to do this before Ben transforms. If it was a starting distance of lets say a hundred meters then I think that it is more likely that Ben would be able to transform faster than Percy can throw his sword. For shorter distances (ranging from 15 to 20 meters and below) I do believe that Percy will have enough of a speed advantage to either throw Riptide through Ben, or simply just cut the distance short and make quick work of him.

So for long distance I would assume that Ben can transform.

For short distance I concede.

Although I still find several problems regarding your statement ' ... throwing riptide through Ben's head ...'

It's not that Percy does not have the ability to do so, but its just that more often than not, it does not seem like the strategy that Percy goes for! From what I understand of Percy, most of his battles showcase him as favoring close-quarters combat. To me it seems that this form of fighting is much more suited to him that simply throwing his sword, but ...

(Playing devil's advocate here) I think it would have been better if you had stated that Percy throws his spear instead of Riptide. After all the OP has equipped Percy with such equipment!

So I'm going to assume that you might, but not certainly, retract your statement regarding Percy throwing his sword, and presumably, meant to say his spear! If that is the case then I would ask if you have throwing feats for Percy with a spear or any other projectile based weaponry. If such feats are available and prove that Percy could use a long range attack faster than Ben could transform, then yes I would concede on those lines!

Now on the chance that Ben can transform I do still wish to debate on the lines of each of his aliens. I'll first wish to address the points you made against XLR8, and then if you wish to continue I could move onto working on the other aliens as well!

When you state that Percy's durability will allow him to survive the initial blitz from Ben, I find nothing wrong with it, but to state that Percy would be unaffected is not really something that I would say is true.

XLR8 charges Vilgax(18:30):http://watchcartoonsonline.to/watch/ben-10-season-01-episode-13_-_secrets/

In the video posted above, if you play to the time provided in the brackets, it will take you just a few seconds before XLR8 tries to charge at Vilgax. While although Vilgax remains unaffected, if you are to look at both the ground around and behind him after the charge, you see that that the shock wave of the impact was able to tear out the stone foundation. I would say that it is safe to assume that Vilgax was strong enough to negate the damage of XLR8's charge, but if Percy was hit by a similar force then I think at the very least he would be knocked back or sent flying through the air. After all, the Curse of Achilles does not affect his weight in any way, so regardless of how durable he is, Percy would still be sent flying and disoriented.

Also, regarding your point saying that Percy would just drown NYC, I would like you to note that even if that is the strategy that Percy goes for, you still need to show speed feats for Percy's Hydrokinesis. I believe there was a feat of Percy pulling water from a mile within his location, and it came in a relatively short time frame (If you are to analyze the battle and assume that certain strikes, parries and moves require a second or two of time). Regardless of that, I'm going to assume that Percy is able to draw this water towards him in a single second. If we are to assume that then the speed at which Percy can draw water from his surroundings would be:

Distance = 1 Mile = 1.60934 Kilometers = 1609.34 meters

Time Frame = 1 second

Speed = 1609.34/1 = 1609.34

And let us just compare that with the speed of water which is approximately 330ms^-1 to give us:

1609ms^-1/330ms^-1 = 4.875 ≈ Mach 4.88

Now just note that we are high balling this feat and are assuming that Percy was able to draw this water from within a time frame of one second. Now compare this high balled feat to XLR8's low balled speed feat (From the baseball pitch) and we would still have XLR8 moving approximately 60 times faster than Percy could call in water. Now take into account that fact that XLR8 has shown the ability to run up both walls and run across water and it becomes pretty clear that Percy would not be able to tag XLR8 as he is simply faster, and even if he could call in that water XLR8 could simply run up it and avoid the attack all together.

The speed advantage XLR8 has is too massive. Even if XLR8's initial charge would be no-sold by Percy's durability, it would still send him flying, causing him to be disoriented. If the charge does not work XLR8 can proceed to attack all across Percy's body and by the wonders of probability would eventually succeed in hitting his weak spot. Water based abilities would not work for reasons I have mentioned above!

Again, it is possible that I am missing out on a lot of information regarding Percy, and you might provide information that really turns the tide(If you get what I mean!). Either way, I believe that my reasoning in sufficient to say that XLR8 would be able to win a battle with Percy, and as for the other aliens, I could do them for another time, that is if you still wish to debate this!

Good day :)

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#48 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkdementor101:

Celestial Bronze harms mortals that “are special enough” he’s obviously harmed other demigods but he’s also harmed regular humans that were considered special enough because they used magic so i’m certain Bens special enough. Also like you said if anything he’d just throw his spear.

And i said he‘d likely do this first because the OP said they have full info so Percy would know to not let Ben get his hand on the watch.

Regarding his throwing skills Percys thrown riptide across an arena to cut through massive chains so he wouldn’t have any problem throwing it through Bens head and mind you Riptide’s shape makes it more difficult to throw than other swords.

Percy has tanked a lightning bolt to the chest without fazed, smacked 900 feet away without being fazed, literally smacked out of sight without being fazed and finally while already weakened tanked being inside a volcano as it exploded though he did get knocked out he only passed out after already being sent thousands of feet into the sky meaning he tanked the entire blast before passing out. Unless it’s to his achilles XLR8 can’t harm percy and i doubt he can even send him flying considering he’s been able to shake an entire bridge clashing with Kronos.

Now regarding speed i actually had the time to go check the lightning feat out and dude, Grandpa Max also dodged the lightning with his car.. the feat isn’t valid. Percy on the other hand has had slow down for him too as he literally deflected hundreds of bullets while defeating Hades entire army. XLR8 isn’t blitzing Percy.

And regarding the drowing Manhattan argument you didn’t really have to pull out a calc using the bay’s water since Percy would start with the lakes water..

But yeah if you want to debate with another Alien let’s do it it’s been pretty fun arguing for Percy and rereading his feats.

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#49 Posted by DarkDementor101 (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Percy blitzes and cuts his head off before he can hit the watch. With full knowledge and morals off, Percy would know Ben hitting that watch would be bad news and absolutely has the massive speed advantage to end thrust fight before it’s a problem.

Or he just blood bends him or something like that.

Either way, Percy stomps. Morals on itd be close but Morals off Percy is too OP.

I believe one of the points was addressed in my post right after yours! I do believe that if the starting distance is small then Percy would be able to cut the distance fairly short, but could you please address what would happen if the starting distance was from further away. If your stance on Percy being able to blitz still stands in either case then could you please provide feats or quotes to help me gauge where Percy's speed lies. Understand that the feat that would work best in this scenario are those that are related to travel, seeing as combat reflexes do not really tell how fast a person can move. So if you can show Percy moving from X to Y in Z amount of time to help show his travel speed that would be very appreciated.

If you're wondering why I'm requesting travel speed and not combat reflexes I would reply with the fact that for Percy to get within striking range he would have to cross the distance between him and Ben., thus requiring that he is ... running ... no surprise!

Regarding your second point where you state that Percy could just blood bend, I would like to let you know that Percy has not actually showcased the feat of being able to control actual liquid blood. The feat of him in Tartarus where he manipulates the poison and tears of the poison goddess is impressive, but provides no bearing as to him being able to manipulate blood. I am going to address the reasons as for why I do not believe that Percy can manipulate blood for reasons shown below:

One of the more popular reasons that fans of Percy Jackson believe that he can manipulate blood is due to him being able to have control over water based fluids. Sea water, regular water, tears, poisons, ice and many other water based fluids have been shown to be under the control of Percy Jackson from time to time again. At first glance it may seem obvious that Percy can control water in any shape or form, but I would tend to disagree for certain reasons.
Correlation does not imply causation! While although the demonstrations of Percy Jackson show that he may be able to manipulate water in any shape or form, simple observations are not enough to actually credit him with a new ability! One of the most simplest methods to go about this is the scientific method of reasoning!
Now let us start with the observation, which in this case is Percy being able to manipulate many varieties of water based mediums. He has shown the ability to control sea water, salt water, regular water, tears, poison, and even ice. The common observation from all of these is the fact that they each contain water. So now we have strong evidence to suggest the hypothesis that Percy can manipulate any form of water, regardless of the chemical composition that it makes up, what form it is located in, or how spread out it is. From this we have our strongly suggestedhypothesis: Percy can manipulate water to any degree.
Now of course we are technically moving off topic by saying "Percy can manipulate water to any degree" and any good debater would know that had I only focused on trying to debunk this statement alone then I should be considered a dishonorable debater. Debunking "Percy can manipulate water to any degree" and "Percy can manipulate water in blood" are two different cases that require a completely different approach, and I would like to openly admit that before anyone else points that out! However, I do use some of the reasoning for the first case to form a foundation for the second, without making it heavily reliant upon the first case! I will discuss both statements in their own due time so this might take a while :)
Now let us begin shall we! So we have our strong hypothesis which is "Percy can manipulate water to any degree". For us to turn this from a hypothesis to a grounded fact we can either: A. Make a prediction based off of this hypothesis and see if our hypothesis correctly predicts the experiments outcome for the conditions and parameters set by us or B. We can use a proof by contradiction!
For proof case (A) you will soon find many other sub-procedures that must be undergone. Studying the cataloged observations require that we isolate all possible reasons for Percy's Hyrdrokinesis. Looking across all cases it becomes pretty clear that the fluid in question is either water or water-based. Of course it is possible for me to take other really really obvious reasons such as "Percy is alive", "He's breathing in this scene", "He's not blind" and etc. We simply disregard such similarities due to the impracticality of us basing our predictions on them. Another way to look at it is by realizing that some similarities are near constants. Percy has never been blind (Duh) and has always been able to see, thus we do not have sufficient evidence to suggest that Percy's sight has any bearing on him being able to manipulate said body of fluid, seeing as it was not a variable that changed before and during the feat being performed. The composition of the fluid, however, has actually shown to create a visible observable change, which in this case means that Percy can manipulate it, and thus we catalog this reason. Further investigation shows that the fluids that Percy generally manipulates are water or have water composition. Now our hypothesis states that:"Percy can manipulate water to any degree". For this I am going to make an assumption that I do not think you should really disagree with as it favors your side! Assumption(#1): Percy can manipulate water. This assumption assumes that Percy can manipulate regular, salt, and sea water, so I don't see why it should be much of a a problem!
Coming to the hypothesis:"Percy can manipulate water to any degree" we have to change certain variable to ensure that Percy can actually do what has been stated in the hypothesis. In other words, we need need to model predictions based off of our hypothesis and see if it falls well in line with the observations made from our experiment. Now obviously we come to a problem here! Percy is a fictional character! How do we run experiments with him? Simple! We don't, but rather look at the statement in question and see if there are any practical bounds that it lies within to give off a good estimated range in which we should test Percy's abilities. Now the hypothesis states that Percy can manipulate water to any degree, but you run into problems immediately. The word any covers a wide range of scenarios (Technically infinite if you want to get into the multiverse side of the debate!) It is impractical to show Percy manipulating water in every single scenario, so we can simply use a proof by induction! Proof by induction works where we prove that a statement holds true for situation/variable = n and also holds true for situation/variable = n-1/n+1/n+k(situational). Due to recursion of replacing n-1 --> n-1 or n+1 --> n+1 you can create an incremental or decremented proof from where you can show that a certain statement is true for n --> +inf or n --> -inf. Now for us to prove that Percy is able to manipulate water to any degree, instead of us proving the statement to hold true for all kinds of scenarios, we just prove it to hold true for one scenario, and prove that the scenario would also validate the one right before/after it, and use recursion to proceed onward. For Percy, the best way to prove he can manipulate water to any degree is by showing him manipulate water out of control from an omni-transcendent being. Now here we make another assumption, which is Assumption(#2): An omni-transcendent being (Which we will call character X) is more powerful than a non-omni-transcendent being and Assumption(#3): Said Omni-transcendent being is using their full power to wrestle for control over water. Now if Percy can show that he is more powerful than character X, and assuming that said character is either as powerful if not more powerful than every other fictional character, then the statement "Percy can manipulate water to any degree" does hold true, as all possible scenarios do fall under by beating control over water from an omni-transcendental being. Now looking at the evidence, we will find that we have none! We have never pitted Percy against character X, or of similar power, so how will we test it out? Proof by contradiction!
One important thing to note before I carry on is that neither of these methods of proof favor proving or disproving the statement. It just allows us to easily figure out whether or not a statement is true! Now on with the topic!
Proof Case (B) tells us to use a proof by contradiction. In this case we assume that the hypothesis already holds true, and instead we only require one anti feat to suggest that it does not hold true. Now of course since this is fiction, there are many a ties outliers that people try to use to debunk a more solidly laid down foundation of feats. However in this case since the statement in question holds more weight by using the word any, even one single anti-feat can be used to disprove the statement. Regardless of that, both the absence of proof, and that fact that that there are contradictory feats stands out clearly for itself, thus makes the statement "Percy can manipulate water to any degree" as false.
Now of course, anyone can recognize that this is not the hypothesis that we were originally here to discuss. The hypothesis in question is actually: "Percy Jackson can manipulate blood"
Now unlike the first case, only a single scenario is defined, making our job much easier! As such, the weight the statement holds is also much weaker, and thus a case could be made for contradictory feats as being outliers rather than absolutes! That being said, let us break down the core of the argument!
Observations: Percy has manipulated Sea water, Salt water, Regular Water, Tears, Poison, Ice and other forms of water based fluids
Hypothesis: Percy can manipulate blood due to it containing water
Questionable parameters: Composition of water by mass, Concentration of solution, Homogeneous vs Heterogeneous solutions
of water
Predictions: 1. If Percy can manipulate blood due to it simply containing water then there should be a feat of him doing so to a solution of similar composition
2. Percy should be able to draw water by any source that has a composition of water that is higher than that of our blood

Proof Case (A): The highest showings of Percy's water manipulation was when he used the Poison of the goddess inside the realm of tartarus. Poisons have an entire range of composition of mass of water. Some Poisons require only a few nano grams
of substance, while other could lie within several tens of grams for every 100 grams of water. Its hard to gauge how much exactly Percy was able to manipulate at that time and thus it gives no bearing as to the degree of control Percy has over a heterogeneous solution of water.
Proof Case (B): Let us for the moment assume that Percy can manipulate water with the composition by mass of our blood. Since this
is a weak weight argument I will concede when you say that certain things may be taken as outliers! Now over the
course of the series there are many cases where Percy's ability to manipulate solutions of similar composition or higher,
but he has not done so. If this hypothesis was actually true, the Percy should have no trouble drawing water from
sources with much higher composition of water by mass. If anything, most of his battles should be resolved in an instant. Even without being blood lusted as he was in tartarus, their are certain parts of our body where the
concentration of water is much higher than other organs (No surprise). The lungs alone are around 83% of water and
yet he has never once decided to use any tactic that could resort to taking complete control of a person's breathing!?
Take into account that there are many other ways that he could use his water powers to manipulate a person's body,
regardless of the fact whether he is blood lusted or not, just goes to show that there is more evidence that points against the statement rather than for it!

Sorry if this felt too long, but I hope I was able to make my points as clear as possible. I'm not actually done and I wish to continue this even more as I'm having a bucket load of fun. Hope you don't take my argument as aggressive! After all, I think that a calm debate is a good debate :)

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#50 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkdementor101:

Oh and i forgot to mention that unless specified the distance between opponents is around 5 meters.