1. But You Do Not Know. A Few Minutes Can Mean Almost Anything Outside Of 30 Minutes Really. That's Why I Think It's Hard To Quantify These Feats Without Actual Numbers Here. Both Are FTL To Which Degree One Is Faster I Don't Know.
Bro... Just do the math yourself and see. Even if we lowballed the timeframe to 30 minutes, the difference would be negligible. Seiya and the rest of them could have taken days to reach Elysium and it would still be a better feat than crossing the radius of the largest known nebula. We also know for certain that Seiya could easily react to attacks that crosses this distance and more in seconds once he acquired his God Cloth, along with blitz the attacker. This is a better quantifiable speed feat that can be applied to combat than anything Beerus has.
2. Why Is It Unbelievable For A Plot Weapon To Actually Beat A High Powered Being ? Beerus Beat Zamasu With It Like Nothing. He Is Not That Weak. He Obviously Isn't Goku, But Not That Weak Either.
Because Zamasu was getting stepped on by SSJ2 Goku, whereas Beerus would defeat SSJB Kaio-Ken ×10 Goku from that arc soundly. The problem doesn't lie in your assertion that Hakai is an unstoppable plot weapon; just your ability to prove so.
3. No Evidence Given That It Can Be Blocked In The Anime. Until There Is We Can See Beerus Hand Technique Fail Its A Plot Weapon. Why Do You Keep Bringing Up People I Don't Know To Prove A Point ? Who The Heck Is Shanks ? My Line Of Reasoning Is A Plot Weapon That Has Killed A Moderate Powerful Being Like Nothing And Has Not Been Shown To Be Stopped When Used Could Possibly Handle Another Even More Powerful Being. No Reason To Think It Could Not Other Than Speculation About It's Use In Another Form The Reasoning Is Solid.
No evidence against against your position that relies entirely on assumption does not constitute valid proof that said position is true. This is a textbook example of a argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I'm bringing up examples in hopes that you'll recognize how ridiculous your line of reasoning has been so far. If you don't know the characters or examples in question, Google is a place. So your line of reasoning begins with your conclusion--that Hakai is a plot weapon? No offense, but I can tell you're not really expierenced when it comes to debating, despite having more posts than probably anyone on this site, so I'm just going to let you belive what you want and end the debate after this reply.
4. No He Can't But Not All Plot Weapons Are Equal. I Think The Problem Here Is When You See Plot Weapon You Equate It With It Has To Be Unstoppable.
The problem lies in the fact that this is exactly what you've been arguing since the previous page take a look at the second paragraph in your own post (#96):
Saying a plot weapon can't be stopped right before arguing that characters can overcome them kind of proves they can be stopped. Not that you have any hard proof Hakai is a plot weapon to begin with.
I Went Over How Plot Weapons Could Fail. As A Matter Of Fact, From The Beginning I Said If Beerus Could Stop Seiya With The Hand Technique And YOU Said Lets Assume That It Is An Unstoppable Plot Weapon, Remember ?
Remember This ?
I think you're misinterpreting something. I didn't say that's what we should assume, or even that I would assume it. To entertain an idea is basically consider the possibility, not to assume it's true when there is no evidence supporting it in the first place. Not to mention, I haven't seen a feat presented so far in this entire thread that would suggest Beerus can even hope to keep up with Seiya, so by there is even more reason for me not to believe he would get Hakai'd... Not that it would matter if we invoke your logic here, because as I previously said, Seiya had been at death's door numerous times throughout the series, being put there by stronger characters than Beerus or the ones he's affected with Hakai. Therefore, why should Beerus' plot weapon overcome Seiya's plot willpower?
1. But You Do Not Know. A Few Minutes Can Mean Almost Anything Outside Of 30 Minutes Really. That's Why I Think It's Hard To Quantify These Feats Without Actual Numbers Here. Both Are FTL To Which Degree One Is Faster I Don't Know.
Bro... Just do the math yourself and see. Even if we lowballed the timeframe to 30 minutes, the difference would be negligible. Seiya and the rest of them could have taken days to reach Elysium and it would still be a better feat than crossing the radius of the largest known nebula. We also know for certain that Seiya could easily react to attacks that crosses this distance and more in seconds once he acquired his God Cloth, along with blitz the attacker. This is a better quantifiable speed feat that can be applied to combat than anything Beerus has.
2. Why Is It Unbelievable For A Plot Weapon To Actually Beat A High Powered Being ? Beerus Beat Zamasu With It Like Nothing. He Is Not That Weak. He Obviously Isn't Goku, But Not That Weak Either.
Because Zamasu was getting stepped on by SSJ2 Goku, whereas Beerus would defeat SSJB Kaio-Ken ×10 Goku from that arc soundly. The problem doesn't lie in your assertion that Hakai is an unstoppable plot weapon; just your ability to prove so.
3. No Evidence Given That It Can Be Blocked In The Anime. Until There Is We Can See Beerus Hand Technique Fail Its A Plot Weapon. Why Do You Keep Bringing Up People I Don't Know To Prove A Point ? Who The Heck Is Shanks ? My Line Of Reasoning Is A Plot Weapon That Has Killed A Moderate Powerful Being Like Nothing And Has Not Been Shown To Be Stopped When Used Could Possibly Handle Another Even More Powerful Being. No Reason To Think It Could Not Other Than Speculation About It's Use In Another Form The Reasoning Is Solid.
No evidence against against your position that relies entirely on assumption does not constitute valid proof that said position is true. This is a textbook example of a argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. I'm bringing up examples in hopes that you'll recognize how ridiculous your line of reasoning has been so far. If you don't know the characters or examples in question, Google is a place. So your line of reasoning begins with your conclusion--that Hakai is a plot weapon? No offense, but I can tell you're not really expierenced when it comes to debating, despite having more posts than probably anyone on this site, so I'm just going to let you belive what you want and end the debate after this reply.
4. No He Can't But Not All Plot Weapons Are Equal. I Think The Problem Here Is When You See Plot Weapon You Equate It With It Has To Be Unstoppable.
The problem lies in the fact that this is exactly what you've been arguing since the previous page take a look at the second paragraph in your own post (#96):
Saying a plot weapon can't be stopped right before arguing that characters can overcome them kind of proves they can be stopped. Not that you have any hard proof Hakai is a plot weapon to begin with.
I Went Over How Plot Weapons Could Fail. As A Matter Of Fact, From The Beginning I Said If Beerus Could Stop Seiya With The Hand Technique And YOU Said Lets Assume That It Is An Unstoppable Plot Weapon, Remember ?
Remember This ?
I think you're misinterpreting something. I didn't say that's what we should assume, or even that I would assume it. To entertain an idea is basically consider the possibility, not to assume it's true when there is no evidence supporting it in the first place. Not to mention, I haven't seen a feat presented so far in this entire thread that would suggest Beerus can even hope to keep up with Seiya, so by there is even more reason for me not to believe he would get Hakai'd... Not that it would matter if we invoke your logic here, because as I previously said, Seiya had been at death's door numerous times throughout the series, being put there by stronger characters than Beerus or the ones he's affected with Hakai. Therefore, why should Beerus' plot weapon overcome Seiya's plot willpower?
1. The Point I Was Trying To Make Was That The Speed Difference Is Not Quantifiable If You Don't Know The Actual Time It Took For Each Speed Feat To Occur. That Was The Point. Both Are FTL. I Could Care Less Who Is Faster At This Point TBH.
2. Okay, But Again How Is This Evidence That It Would Not Work Against A More Powerful Being Though ? Even If Hakai Is Not A Plot Weapon Why Should We Think It Would Have No Effect On Beings Higher Than Zamasu ?
3. My Line Of Reasoning Is That Hakai Hand Technique Works Like A Plot Weapon. When It Has Been Used As The Hand Technique It Has Not Been Able To Be Blocked Or Stopped. It Works Likes A Plot Weapon. Whether Or Not If It Is. Who Knows. Also, You Keep Failing To Mention That I Keep Saying "If It Is A Plot Weapon". I Said That From The Beginning. Yeah Yeah, I Am Not Experienced When It Comes To Debating Because I Think It's Possible An Attack That Has Not Been Blocked Before Could Possibly Work On A Powerful Being.
4. Well I Should Have Said "Usually Can't Be Stopped" But You Got Me There Regardless I Guess. I Still Maintain That It's Possibly A Plot Weapon. We Don't Have A Bunch Of Showings Of The Hand Technique So I Can Not Say For Sure. I Still Think It's Possible That It Could Work On Seiya Assuming He Could Catch Him With It.
5. I Said Off Top, That I Thought Both Characters Was FTL And That Quantifying Who Was Faster Was Problematic. As Far As Seiya's Willpower Overcoming Beerus Hakai, Perhaps It Could. As I Said, It's A Hypothetical, A Lot Of Options Are Possible, Yet Many Of Them Would Close If There Is A Legit Gap Between Beerus And Seiya's Speed.
1. The Point I Was Trying To Make Was That The Speed Difference Is Not Quantifiable If You Don't Know The Actual Time It Took For Each Speed Feat To Occur. That Was The Point. Both Are FTL. I Could Care Less Who Is Faster At This Point TBH.
The speed difference is definitely quantifiable when you compare those two feats. While we don't have an exact timeframe for either of them, we can use the hints given to reach a reasonable conclusion. It couldn't have taken Beerus more than 2 minutes to leave his nebula, while the Bronze Knights clearly reached their destination in under an hour, else the few minutes lines would make no sense given the context. I brought up the fact that even if it took them days to complete this journey, it clearly didn't, the feat would still make Beerus' look like it's nothing. And since their reaction/combat feats are even better (I've posted a few of them in this thread already), contrary to Beerus who is questionably FTL in combat speed based on his own feats and the ones he could scale to, the evidence favors mid tier Gold Knights being able to blitz him with ease, let alone God Cloth Seiya, who's drastically above all of the Gold Knights.
2. Okay, But Again How Is This Evidence That It Would Not Work Against A More Powerful Being Though ? Even If Hakai Is Not A Plot Weapon Why Should We Think It Would Have No Effect On Beings Higher Than Zamasu ?
I never said it was evidence the technique wouldn't work, nor did I argue that it would not have any effect on beings above Zamasu. My argument for that would be that Seiya has resisted and overpowered a similar technique with a stated potency putting it in the galactic to multi-galactic range. Far above Hakai's showings or statements.
3. My Line Of Reasoning Is That Hakai Hand Technique Works Like A Plot Weapon. When It Has Been Used As The Hand Technique It Has Not Been Able To Be Blocked Or Stopped. It Works Likes A Plot Weapon. Whether Or Not If It Is. Who Knows.
A technique working on two beings far below Beerus' paygrade, which would automatically make them insignificant to Seiya, doesn't indicate it's a plot weapon in the slightest.
Also, You Keep Failing To Mention That I Keep Saying "If It Is A Plot Weapon". I Said That From The Beginning.
And yet, you still say this:
If you're not going to be consistent with your own arguments, why do you expect others to focus on a single statement?
Yeah Yeah, I Am Not Experienced When It Comes To Debating Because I Think It's Possible An Attack That Has Not Been Blocked Before Could Possibly Work On A Powerful Being.
That has nothing to do with it. I actually think Hakai can possibly work on beings stronger than Beerus as well. It's how you're arguing this that makes me question your debating experience. In addition, you originally asked how Hakai works and whether Seiya could deal with a technique like this. Hence, the reason I said he can blitz Beerus and destroy his atoms with attacks that bypass conventional durability.
4. Well I Should Have Said "Usually Can't Be Stopped" But You Got Me There Regardless I Guess. I Still Maintain That It's Possibly A Plot Weapon. We Don't Have A Bunch Of Showings Of The Hand Technique So I Can Not Say For Sure. I Still Think It's Possible That It Could Work On Seiya Assuming He Could Catch Him With It.
That's a fair stance and you're most definitely entitled to your opinion on the matter.
5. I Said Off Top, That I Thought Both Characters Was FTL And That Quantifying Who Was Faster Was Problematic. As Far As Seiya's Willpower Overcoming Beerus Hakai, Perhaps It Could. As I Said, It's A Hypothetical, A Lot Of Options Are Possible, Yet Many Of Them Would Close If There Is A Legit Gap Between Beerus And Seiya's Speed.
Well, based on their own feats, statements and feats that they can scale to, Seiya is most definitely the faster of the two in every facet. Although you're correct in saying that a lot of this is mostly hypothetical, since we can only work with what they've demonstrated so far to try and gauge their capabilities.
1. The Point I Was Trying To Make Was That The Speed Difference Is Not Quantifiable If You Don't Know The Actual Time It Took For Each Speed Feat To Occur. That Was The Point. Both Are FTL. I Could Care Less Who Is Faster At This Point TBH.
The speed difference is definitely quantifiable when you compare those two feats. While we don't have an exact timeframe for either of them, we can use the hints given to reach a reasonable conclusion. It couldn't have taken Beerus more than 2 minutes to leave his nebula, while the Bronze Knights clearly reached their destination in under an hour, else the few minutes lines would make no sense given the context. I brought up the fact that even if it took them days to complete this journey, it clearly didn't, the feat would still make Beerus' look like it's nothing. And since their reaction/combat feats are even better (I've posted a few of them in this thread already), contrary to Beerus who is questionably FTL in combat speed based on his own feats and the ones he could scale to, the evidence favors mid tier Gold Knights being able to blitz him with ease, let alone God Cloth Seiya, who's drastically above all of the Gold Knights.
2. Okay, But Again How Is This Evidence That It Would Not Work Against A More Powerful Being Though ? Even If Hakai Is Not A Plot Weapon Why Should We Think It Would Have No Effect On Beings Higher Than Zamasu ?
I never said it was evidence the technique wouldn't work, nor did I argue that it would not have any effect on beings above Zamasu. My argument for that would be that Seiya has resisted and overpowered a similar technique with a stated potency putting it in the galactic to multi-galactic range. Far above Hakai's showings or statements.
3. My Line Of Reasoning Is That Hakai Hand Technique Works Like A Plot Weapon. When It Has Been Used As The Hand Technique It Has Not Been Able To Be Blocked Or Stopped. It Works Likes A Plot Weapon. Whether Or Not If It Is. Who Knows.
A technique working on two beings far below Beerus' paygrade, which would automatically make them insignificant to Seiya, doesn't indicate it's a plot weapon in the slightest.
Also, You Keep Failing To Mention That I Keep Saying "If It Is A Plot Weapon". I Said That From The Beginning.
And yet, you still say this:
If you're not going to be consistent with your own arguments, why do you expect others to focus on a single statement?
Yeah Yeah, I Am Not Experienced When It Comes To Debating Because I Think It's Possible An Attack That Has Not Been Blocked Before Could Possibly Work On A Powerful Being.
That has nothing to do with it. I actually think Hakai can possibly work on beings stronger than Beerus as well. It's how you're arguing this that makes me question your debating experience. In addition, you originally asked how Hakai works and whether Seiya could deal with a technique like this. Hence, the reason I said he can blitz Beerus and destroy his atoms with attacks that bypass conventional durability.
4. Well I Should Have Said "Usually Can't Be Stopped" But You Got Me There Regardless I Guess. I Still Maintain That It's Possibly A Plot Weapon. We Don't Have A Bunch Of Showings Of The Hand Technique So I Can Not Say For Sure. I Still Think It's Possible That It Could Work On Seiya Assuming He Could Catch Him With It.
That's a fair stance and you're most definitely entitled to your opinion on the matter.
5. I Said Off Top, That I Thought Both Characters Was FTL And That Quantifying Who Was Faster Was Problematic. As Far As Seiya's Willpower Overcoming Beerus Hakai, Perhaps It Could. As I Said, It's A Hypothetical, A Lot Of Options Are Possible, Yet Many Of Them Would Close If There Is A Legit Gap Between Beerus And Seiya's Speed.
Well, based on their own feats, statements and feats that they can scale to, Seiya is most definitely the faster of the two in every facet. Although you're correct in saying that a lot of this is mostly hypothetical, since we can only work with what they've demonstrated so far to try and gauge their capabilities.
1. What About Combat Feats ? We Have Been Speaking On Travel Feats That Their Fighting Movement Speed Has Not Come Up.
2. Okay, So It's Still Possible That Hakai Hand Technique Could Work On Seiya Even Though Seiya Has Fought Beings With Equal Or Greater Power. That's Fine I Guess.
3. Oh Come On... I Was Talking To The Other Guy When I Said That. It Was An Error. My Original Position Was It's Possibly A Plot Weapon.
4. Alrighty I Guess.
Unless I see them flying while doing combat at MFTL+ speeds like Beerus does, nope they are not blitzing. They are mostly slightly above light speed in combat fighting or muscular movements in relation to their cosmos which is not enough sorry and the proof is right below. I still have to see where is the Destructive feat or Strength feat which even puts them on Beerus' level aside from Hades lining those planets which is considered his greatest feat when it comes to telekinesis or say an invisible quantifiable force which is not enough to put down Beerus (I can even prove it) who shakes and threatens the entire Universe being in a very suppressed state. Even 200 billion supernovas won't create the shockwaves which casual Beerus was throwing around and later nullified all that energy and turned it into nothingness.
I still have to see Destructive or Strength feats of anyone in the Seiya verse which puts them near Beerus let alone their non-existent Combat speed.
| Apolo who destroyed the entire universe with one word and Hades is stronger than apollo since he belongs to the trio olympian gods brothers (Zeus, Poseidon and Hades) |  |
| Aiolos who's Stated as being the strongest Gold Saint by Aries Mu, Capricorn Shura and Virgo Shaka. Said to be the strongest Gold Saint by the narrationfour times over two consecutive pages. Has been stated to have strength superior to Saga's who is a galaxy burster. His power is superior to that of the Sun God Ra, knocked sealed Typhon back into slumber with one attack, channeled Atum's light and killed the God of Chaos Apophis with one arrow. And yet, he is still weaker than an olympian god. |  |
| Speed MFTL+ http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Matthew_Schroeder/Saint_Seiya:_Speed_Feats_Summarized |  |
| About the dbs speed. Champa who is almost as strong as beerus couldn't see dyspo moving at ls ftl speed |  |
| Dyspo, the sonic warrior, who had to hear hit's muscles flexions to blitz him which show that hit is barely subsonic |  |
| Vados who barely saw dyspo's movements. |  |
| The fact that the sound is travelling faster than hit's movements shows that hit is slower than the speed of sound. |  |
Where is your proof that Vegetto retaining his power has anything to do with his atoms not being transmuted into candy? Because from what I've seen, this relies entirely on your own interpretation of events that contradict the character dialogue along with empirical evidence from the manga. To recap:
Vegetto says he's a piece of candy
Boo says he's a piece of candy
Vegetto needs Boo to turn him back to normal
That's fine as far as power is concerned. Not so much his supposed resistance to having his body transmuted, however.
How does retaining power as a piece of candy have anything to do with one's durability?
I am not making my point clear seems like: Subatomic Transmutation like that will be 100% end of the fight against a character with only conventional durability but it is not able to finish off vegito. This shows their resistance to attacks on this level.
The toys also show the ability to walk around and fight--Kyros trained his daughter Rebecca while he was stuck in toy form. I can easily ask you for evidence that Boo's candy beam causes one to lose his/her ability to think, but you wouldn't be capable of finding me a scan backing this up.
because buu has transmuted hundreds of characters into all sorts of inorganic material and vegito is the only one whom subatomic transmutation could not stop. All toys sugar creates retain their behavior, so it is part of her ability.
And in that very same scan, Seiya says that when Knights destroy something, they're crushing the atoms within said object. That means when he was trying to destroy the first pillar as a Bronze Knight, he attempted to destroy its atoms. You can't cherry pick a certain statement and blatantly ignore the overwhelming evidence that contradicts your position. The fact of the matter is, Saint Seiya characters utilize a certain martial arts technique in combat that allows them to destroy things on an atomic level. This was clarified in the first few chapters.
no cherry picking.
Seiya says the door must fall when it's atoms are smashed, and proceeds to smash it. If he was already smashing it's atoms as you say, the only difference was increased level of cosmo. Which means he did not bypass the durability because of atomic level attack, but overcame it by hitting harder.
Immune to a particular form? So if someone like Galactus wanted to transmute him into a piece of candy, Vegetto would be able to resist it? You're making leaps in logic here. Your entire argument revolving around Vegetto resisting the relevant aspect of transmutation that would possibly help him in this fight is not only blatantly contradicted by dialogue the source material, but there isn't even any way to discern how retaining one's power would mean his body wasn't fully transmuted into candy. Your argument resembles non sequitur logic.
That depends on what level galactus's transmutation feats which I don't know enough. Please post his feats and I will answer. But seiya's attacks are only atomic level, and an attack on that level is clearly not enough to finish dragon ball characters like it would do to someone with normal character.
In the first scan you posted:
it can also be radiation there. But anyway, we know objects were not melting or anything, simply falling apart. So molecular cohesion destruction, heat.
Your argument for Superman having attacks that bypass durability on an atomic/subatomic level, which is supposedly the reason he wasn't torn apart by the black hole, uses similar reasoning, though.
You post a scan of Doomsday's aura working on a molecular level, but how is that proof his atoms and fundamental particles wouldn't be destroyed by the gravity of a black hole?
I posted the scan of superman surviving molecular level attacks because you asked if he had done any such thing. Proof that his fundamental particles are not destroyed by a blackhole is given by the fact that he already showed it by surviving one.
I wouldn't invoke this line of reasoning if I were you, considering the attack Goku and the Androids dealt with didn't destroy all matter that was inside of it. Even the 'stuff' we see on the inside is separated by quite a bit of space and the theories suggesting that the gravity would break you down to the smallest particles also assume that all matter inside gets densely packed into a specific point--the singularity. The fact of the matter is, the black holes that are thought to act as 'portals' to another universe or dimension are still black holes in the sense that their gravitational attraction is powerful enough to trap light inside of the event horizon. So for you to assume the black hole in DBS would destroy all matter or effect Goku and the rest on an atomic level would be to equate it to an actual real life black hole, or at least our understanding of one, when the author never mentions anything about it destroying all matter--the main point was to push Goku and the rest off the stage, which would be redundant if the technique destroys them on an atomic level...
I see no need to push this point, even agreeing both black holes were similar, and they can both resist attacks on a similar level - seiya's attacks can't bypass shura's durability by attacking atoms anyway. He has to overcome it by hitting harder.
This doesn't even make any sense. How does Seiya not bypass durability when his attacks are explicitly stated to do just that? They target you on an atomic level. They don't destroy your material body and then go after the remaining molecules like Ki blasts do. That would be a prime example of an attack that doesn't bypass material durability, but rather overcomes it.
Because material durability acts on multiple levels. Some characters only have feats of resisting 1. cellular level attacks, 2. some resist atomic level attacks and 3. some even survive sub atomic level attacks. Seiya bypassed material durability on atomic level, so he can only bypass the first one, or even second one because his attacks are high end atomic. But he cannot bypass the third one, because it withstands attacks on a deeper level than what he uses.
Pretty ironic, seeing as how Seiya bringing down the mainstay is an example of bypassing its conventional durability. I'm not sure if you're just confused on what qualifies as bypassing conventional durability or if you're just feigning ignorance right now, but this is getting kind of laughable, to be perfectly honest. Seiya and the other Knights couldn't bring down the Mainstay pillar through normal means when they used the Libra weapons which crush stars and break Camus' ice constructs, even though they were amazed by such raw power at the time. Seiya then claims he'll elevate his Cosmo to its limit, creating a miracle, and destroy the pillar on an atomic level, no matter how solid it is. That alone is an example of Seiya bypassing conventional durability.
I don't think you are able to understand my point still
1. You are saying saints were atomic it at atomic level earlier.
2. You are saying seiya elevated his cosmo, and still attacked it at atomic level.
So the level of cosmo, or how hard he is hitting is the only thing changed here, so it's durability did not get bypassed, or he didn't gain better than atomic level manipulation, he just hit it harder. Overcoming it's durability with more force.
Pretty straightforward request. Just prove to me that Sidra's attack would completely destroy Freeza's body down to an atomic or subatomic level with concrete statements from the source. If you believe the words 'existence destruction' is proof of this, find me some standard definitions explaining what it means to have your existence destroyed.
It could just mean that Freeza's material body is blown apart, maybe destroyed on a cellular or molecular level(?) and that his soul will not go to the Afterlife and cease to exist. There are many things that it could mean, but it's up to you to prove the meaning corresponds to your argument.
that would mean he still exists on cellular or molecular level though, so his existence is not destroyed. please explain what you are trying to say, how can you destroy existence while not destroying existence?
It doesn't attack the atoms at all according to the guidebook:
attacking at atomic level is the correct wording to use, my mistake. English is not my first language.
Seiya never said that, though. What he did say is that if a Knight elevated his Cosmo and crushes the pillar's atoms, there's no way it wouldn't come down. That relies on his ability to actually crush the pillar's atoms.
Actually, it is relying on the level of his cosmo - since according to you, they were already attacking the pillar's atoms.
Well, considering your only good example for why Beerus' durability wouldn't be bypassed relies on assuming the black hole feat Goku and the Androids have would somehow protect him from attacks that bypass conventional durability, and I've already shown that stronger characters than Shura, who survived an actual black hole in the universe (not some odd, heart-shaped attack) are still affected by atomic manipulation techniques, I'll maintain that Beerus' durability will most definitely be bypassed and even if Seiya couldn't do so for whatever reason, he would still win due to having all-around better stats.
you are saying "If goku survived a blackhole, so did shura". But seiya shura's durability because of atomic hax anyway, he has to overcome it by attacking with higher level of cosmo. Beerus, who makes the same claim, won't have his durability bypassed either, his durability will have to be overcome by attacking with more power.
I've seen only assumptions so far. I'll go over each example you posted once again and explain why I don't feel it constitutes hard evidence:
1. Trunks reducing Freeza to atoms --- Not much to really say here for why it doesn't prove DB characters can resist having their atoms destroyed, but this is also not an example of a matter manipulation technique bypassing material durability to specifically target the atoms, meaning that resistance to such attacks depend on conventional durability.
material durability of db characters, more specifically, which holds up to attacks on atomic level. You understand that material durability that works against atomic level attacks cannot be bypassed because incoming attacks are atomic level, right?
2. Vegetto being turned into a piece of candy --- This relies on the assumption that he wasn't completely transmuted because he retained his power, which would ironically ignore the very canon material you're using to try and back up your stance. Vegetto says he's candy, but still managed to retain his power. He then goes on to say he's candy once more. Furthermore, even if you could prove that he did resist being completely turned into candy, there's no reason why that feat constitutes evidence that his atoms wouldn't be destroyed by SS characters.
I have been trying to bring attention to the fact that someone whose atoms have been turned to candy cannot fly or fight, but fine. I will just say, subatomic transmutation is not enough to stop dragonball characters like they would to someone with normal durability.
3. Sidra's ball of destructive energy --- Relies entirely on the assumption that it would destroy its target on an atomic or subatomic level by bypassing standard durability when there's nothing in the show that states this.
the relevant statement is "their existence will be destroyed", posted in a screenshot earlier. Please explain what you are trying to say here as asked above.
4. Goku's black hole feat --- Relies on assuming the technique with the name black hole in it acts exactly like what we believe a black hole in real life acts like, even though its appearance, behavior and the inside do not correspond with any of our current theories. The very fact that it's visible at all makes the comparison questionable at best. In addition, this also relies on ignoring the fact that Shura has a black hole feat, yet stronger characters than him are affected by the atomic destruction technique SS characters utilize in combat.
It is no assumption or just an attack name, we were explained what it does - creates a mass of gravity, a prison that even light cannot escape from.
so it's not just a technique name.
Well, I showed you a near-death Saga withstanding at least 2 Big Bang level attacks without sustaining life-threatening injury. I've also shown you Seiya basically one-shotting characters that make him look like nothing.
That is a good feat, I forgot where it was but we will get to it after we settle about whether the durability will be bypassed or not.
Since you summed up argument last time, I will sum it this time: Db characters durability allows them to keep fighting against: ki blasts which are atomic level, shrug off absolute zero which works even on subatomic particles, blackhole which works on at least subatomic level, keep them from being finished by atomic+ transmutation, as well as fight off getting destroyed from existence.
You have shown seiya saying he can bypass durability by smashing atoms, which is fine, but he has NOT bypassed non-conventional durability that works against all of what's mentioned above. There are characters in seiya who have performed similar feats, but no saint has been able to bypass their durability just by smashing atoms, so we cannot say durability like this will be bypassed for no reason.
Now, if seiya can deal more damage than what beerus can tank, that will hurt beerus. But the attacks working on atomic level is not going to make beerus's durability useless unless they have shown to make a durability like this useless.
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