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#1 Posted by RanaProGamer (330 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are at their strongest. Win by death/KO. No prep time. Who would win?

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#2 Edited by MainJP (2097 posts) - - Show Bio

Again? Seiya murders.

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#3 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya stomps.

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#4 Posted by LosinySheriff (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya

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#5 Posted by Batuxx28 (207 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus easily.

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#6 Posted by Galactic_1000 (3349 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya.

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#7 Posted by TheDeathstar (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus Hakais.

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#8 Posted by magnus_carlsen3 (356 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus wins.

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#9 Posted by Theanalyser (1209 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go again

inb4 lock

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#10 Posted by Ungas123 (275 posts) - - Show Bio

I just voted Seiya against Beerus' Instructor on the other thread. Do you think I'd back Beerus here when Whis is canonically stronger than Beerus?

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#11 Posted by Helloman (8955 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya wins.

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#12 Edited by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: can I reply to your comment here?

the other thread is locked

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#13 Posted by RR79 (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool said:

@thedarkpaladin: can I reply to your comment here?

the other thread is locked

Why did it get locked? Just curious

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#14 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@rr79 said:
@kaiocool said:

@thedarkpaladin: can I reply to your comment here?

the other thread is locked

Why did it get locked? Just curious

thread maker chose a winner. That is not allowed

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#15 Edited by RR79 (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool said:
@rr79 said:
@kaiocool said:

@thedarkpaladin: can I reply to your comment here?

the other thread is locked

Why did it get locked? Just curious

thread maker chose a winner. That is not allowed

Ahh, didn't notice the thread maker did that.

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#16 Posted by Pookie00 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably a stalemate honestly.

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#17 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool: Well, we probably shouldn't derail the thread with past arguments or this will end up getting locked for going off topic. We can debate Seiya vs Beerus if you want to make a case for the latter, though.

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#18 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: ok

but it will come down to the same - will something that breaks atoms bypass beerus/whis durability or not

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#19 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool: The answer to that question would depend on their ability to resist matter manipulation that bypasses conventional durability, which hasn't been demonstrated with on-panel showings so far.

And even without the atomic level hax, Seiya is too fast and too powerful for someone like Beerus to deal with.

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#20 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

As said in the previous thread, while they have not resisted the exact same thing seiya does (atom breaking), they resist multiple things that affect them on a level weaker (ki blasts reducing people to atom), equal (transmutation to some extent, gravity of a black hole that should have crushed their atoms as well) and stronger than seiya's (completely erasing atoms from existence)

they clearly have more than "conventional durability". Can cosmo bypass durability like this?

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#21 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool: As you yourself have mentioned, none of those examples are equivalent to Seiya's technique of splitting the atoms themselves apart with sheer force. The Ki blast reducing someone to atoms doesn't necessarily bypass standard durability in the sense that they aren't initially focused on the atomic level. What they do is blow their target apart from the outside until nothing is left but atoms.

As for the transmutation resistance, I believe I mentioned that Vegetto was still turned into a piece of candy, so the transmutation aspect of the technique was most effective.

As for resisting a pseudo black hole, that can be attributed to Goku's standard durability and doesn't necessarily bypass conventional durability like Seiya's attacks.

I'm also curious to know what evidence there is to substantiate the claim that the small ball of destructive energy completely erases atoms from existence. Was this ever mentioned in the show? I wouldn't equate that to a standard Hakai technique, considering their outward appearance isn't similar. We know for a fact that whoever is killed by that won't go to the Afterlife, so we can safely say it affects the target on a spiritual level. I see no reason why that would be different from withstanding Saga's Galaxian Explosion, which can destroy you on both a physical and incorporeal level and has statements regarding its AP.

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#22 Edited by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

still remains that they are able to inflict damage on that level, whether it is their goal on not - and the characters are capable of resisting that.

While vegito was turned into a piece of candy, he retained his speed and power. Characters with just conventional durability clearly will not be able to resist having their atoms turned into that of another element.

Then we know that goku's standard durability works against something that should have crushed the atoms of a normal character, and reach the conclusion here.

Sidra mentions that the existence of the person that gets hit by the ball will be erased as he gives the energy ball.

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#23 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

still remains that they are able to inflict damage on that level, whether it is their goal on not - and the characters are capable of resisting that.

It's hardly relevant when the attacks they're resisting aren't bypassing standard durability from the get go.

While vegito was turned into a piece of candy, he retained his speed and power. Characters with just conventional durability clearly will not be able to resist having their atoms turned into that of another element.

Yes, but he did not resist having his atoms transmuted, which is why he did end up as a piece of candy. He was just able to retain his consciousness and power. Why exactly is that important when he not only failed to stop himself from being turned into candy, but Seiya won't be transmutting him regardless?

Then we know that goku's standard durability works against something that should have crushed the atoms of a normal character, and reach the conclusion here.

The gravitational pull of a black hole would destroy any normal human's body by elongating them through a process known as spaghettification until they are torn apart. It's not like the black hole specifically targets a character's atoms by bypassing their standard durability. It's not equivalent to a matter manipulation level feat.

Sidra mentions that the existence of the person that gets hit by the ball will be erased as he gives the energy ball.

He said whoever is hit by it will not survive unscathed, that they would not go to the otherworld and their existence being destroyed. I take that statement to mean it's possible to survive being hit by the attack if you have sufficient energy to overcome it (as we see Goku actively resisting it while Freeza straight overpowered it) but you would still take damage. Also, what makes that attack stronger than Seiya or Saga's techniques, if you don't mind me asking?

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#24 Posted by SainguineXshadow (5184 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Lordragoon (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus erase him with Hakai.

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#26 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

It's hardly relevant when the attacks they're resisting aren't bypassing standard durability from the get go.

they are, however capable of inflicting atomization. And that level is not able to bypass dragonball characters durability.

Yes, but he did not resist having his atoms transmuted, which is why he did end up as a piece of candy. He was just able to retain his consciousness and power. Why exactly is that important when he not only failed to stop himself from being turned into candy, but Seiya won't be transmutting him regardless?

because he resisted being completely transmuted. A character with only conventional durability will not be able to keep his abilities and will be completely turned to chocolate.

The gravitational pull of a black hole would destroy any normal human's body by elongating them through a process known as spaghettification until they are torn apart. It's not like the black hole specifically targets a character's atoms by bypassing their standard durability. It's not equivalent to a matter manipulation level feat.

Spaghettification comes from high gravitation gradient. Neutron stars, which have even less gravity, are able to smash atoms without specifically targeting to do so. A nuke doesn't specifically target to heat someone up, but tanking a nuke is still great resistance to heat.

If an effect that works on same level as seiya's technique is not able to bypass goku's durability, why would seiya be able to? The items he has destroyed by attacking their atoms don't have durability that holds up against atomic level attacks, while db characters do. In other words, if goku's durability is not bypassed by gravitation stronger than what is capable of smashing atoms, why would seiya's attacks be able to bypass it, when they work by smashing atoms?

He said whoever is hit by it will not survive unscathed, that they would not go to the otherworld and their existence being destroyed. I take that statement to mean it's possible to survive being hit by the attack if you have sufficient energy to overcome it (as we see Goku actively resisting it while Freeza straight overpowered it) but you would still take damage. Also, what makes that attack stronger than Seiya or Saga's techniques, if you don't mind me asking?

It is possible to survive it if you have enough power, like frieza or resist it if you are like goku. But if you don't, you are erased from existence. That's what makes it stronger than simple techniques that are only able to smash atoms.

If they have other techniques on the same level as hakai, that is fine. But we are talking about their ability to smash atoms here.

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#27 Edited by TheDeathstar (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool: A neutron star indeed smashes atoms apart and almost make them nonexistence. It's very deep core is filled with something that is not even an atom but something called quark-gluon plasma, is basically a layer above soup of highly uncountable neutrons with next to no space. A Black Hole is a product of the same supernova that makes this dense neutronium substance but only a much far better version of it. So yea there's that when resisting atomization.

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#28 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

they are, however capable of inflicting atomization. And that level is not able to bypass dragonball characters durability.

Trunks was able inflict atomization by reducing Freeza to small remains, which he failed to resist. In addition, that still isn't the same thing as Seiya's attacks which ignore material durability and target the atoms directly. Trunks' Ki blast did not, as it had to bypass Freeza's material durability to even reduce him to that state.

because he resisted being completely transmuted. A character with only conventional durability will not be able to keep his abilities and will be completely turned to chocolate.

The only abilities he retained were speed and power. That's literally irrelevant when his physical material was directly transmuted and he could do nothing about this.

Spaghettification comes from high gravitation gradient. Neutron stars, which have even less gravity, are able to smash atoms without specifically targeting to do so. A nuke doesn't specifically target to heat someone up, but tanking a nuke is still great resistance to heat.

Neutron stars are formed by a collapsed core being compressed to the point where its electron degeneracy fails and the result is the electrons combining with the protons in an nucleus to form neutrons, although some electrons and protons remain. Resisting this effect says more for your physical resistance to high gravity, as opposed to matter manipulation which bypasses your material durability entirely.

If an effect that works on same level as seiya's technique is not able to bypass goku's durability, why would seiya be able to? The items he has destroyed by attacking their atoms don't have durability that holds up against atomic level attacks, while db characters do. In other words, if goku's durability is not bypassed by gravitation stronger than what is capable of smashing atoms, why would seiya's attacks be able to bypass it, when they work by smashing atoms?

Probably because it's not an effect that works the same as Seiya's technique. The gravitational pull of a black hole or neutron star will rip you to shreds before your atoms are destroyed and Goku's feat of resisting the high gravity of a pseudo black hole, which doesn't even fall in line with our current understanding of real black holes, is nothing special. Plenty of characters throughout fiction survive black holes all the time with nothing but high durability such as Superman, Godzilla, Green Lanterns, Thanos, and even Shura from Episode G: Assasin. The latter still isn't resistant to having his atoms destroyed, as we've seen with stronger Saints such as Leo Aioria being still affected by the atomic destruction hax.

It is possible to survive it if you have enough power, like frieza or resist it if you are like goku. But if you don't, you are erased from existence. That's what makes it stronger than simple techniques that are only able to smash atoms.

Well, firstly, there isn't anything stating that ability completely erases your atoms from existence, or even targets you on that level as a matter of fact. Just that you won't go to the Afterlife once you die. There's also the fact that there are different levels of matter manipulation and existence erasure techniques.

If they have other techniques on the same level as hakai, that is fine. But we are talking about their ability to smash atoms here.

Seiya also resisted and overpowered the technique in question. Really, I'm not seeing the evidence to say Goku can withstand having his ordinary durability bypassed just because he's strong enough not to be crushed by the gravitational force of a "love black hole" or survive some energy that can seemingly be overpowered. How do we know it even bypasses standard durability and targets you on a molecular level from the start?

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#29 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

Trunks was able inflict atomization by reducing Freeza to small remains, which he failed to resist. In addition, that still isn't the same thing as Seiya's attacks which ignore material durability and target the atoms directly. Trunks' Ki blast did not, as it had to bypass Freeza's material durability to even reduce him to that state.

still proves that ki blasts can cause atomization, and z characters durability holds up against that.

The only abilities he retained were speed and power. That's literally irrelevant when his physical material was directly transmuted and he could do nothing about this.

characters with conventional durability will be turned to just chocolate. He is able to retain his speed and power shows he stopped transmutation from being 100% effective.

Neutron stars are formed by a collapsed core being compressed to the point where its electron degeneracy fails and the result is the electrons combining with the protons in an nucleus to form neutrons, although some electrons and protons remain. Resisting this effect says more for your physical resistance to high gravity, as opposed to matter manipulation which bypasses your material durability entirely.

Probably because it's not an effect that works the same as Seiya's technique. The gravitational pull of a black hole or neutron star will rip you to shreds before your atoms are destroyed and Goku's feat of resisting the high gravity of a pseudo black hole, which doesn't even fall in line with our current understanding of real black holes, is nothing special. Plenty of characters throughout fiction survive black holes all the time with nothing but high durability such as Superman, Godzilla, Green Lanterns, Thanos, and even Shura from Episode G: Assasin. The latter still isn't resistant to having his atoms destroyed, as we've seen with stronger Saints such as Leo Aioria being still affected by the atomic destruction hax.

protons are inside the atom's nucleus, causing electrons to combine with them is as high end as it gets. Which shows goku's durability does not let effects on this level through. Seiya has only bypassed conventional durability, why do you say he can bypass durability that allows a degree of resistance to several different levels of atomic attacks?

Also, superman, godzilla, thanos, all have resisted atom level attacks as well. Where does shura resist being in a blackhole?

Well, firstly, there isn't anything stating that ability completely erases your atoms from existence, or even targets you on that level as a matter of fact.

It is meant to erase a person from existence, their atoms being left behind for some reason is clearly not "being erased from existence"

Just that you won't go to the Afterlife once you die. There's also the fact that there are different levels of matter manipulation and existence erasure techniques. Seiya also resisted and overpowered the technique in question. Really, I'm not seeing the evidence to say Goku can withstand having his ordinary durability bypassed just because he's strong enough not to be crushed by the gravitational force of a "love black hole" or survive some energy that can seemingly be overpowered. How do we know it even bypasses standard durability and targets you on a molecular level from the start?

goku may have his ordinary durability bypassed.

But their durability that helps them not be reduced to atoms, stops transmutation from being 100% effective, allows them to resist being erased, and saves them from gravity smashing their atoms is something seiya is not capable of bypassing. He has only bypassed conventional durability, while db characters clearly have more than that, and it holds up against attacks on seiya's level and more

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#30 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

still proves that ki blasts can cause atomization, and z characters durability holds up against that.

It proves nothing even remotely relevant to the debate here. Ki blasts need to first bypass a DB character's material durability before they reduce him to atoms. Seiya can attack Beerus' atoms without having to worry about is standard durability, although that wouldn't even be a problem for someone of Seiya's caliber regardless.

characters with conventional durability will be turned to just chocolate. He is able to retain his speed and power shows he stopped transmutation from being 100% effective.

What are you talking about? Boo explicitly states that he would turn Vegetto into a piece of candy, which is precisely what happened. Vegetto being able to move around as candy doesn't mean he managed to defend against having his atoms transmuted. The effect was still successful in that regard.

protons are inside the atom's nucleus, causing electrons to combine with them is as high end as it gets. Which shows goku's durability does not let effects on this level through.

It shows Goku is capable of withstanding high gravity to the point where his body won't be condensed, which would in turn cause his electrons to collapse in on the nucleus and combine with the proton. That isn't the same as Seiya straight up powering through his nucleus and tearing it apart with his Cosmo-enhanced punches. He doesn't need to worry about condensing Goku or ripping his material body apart before having an effect on his atoms.

Seiya has only bypassed conventional durability

Seiya has brought down Poseidon's mainstay, which is protected by his Divine Cosmo--reflecting all attacks from non-deities--and strengthened by Athena's own Cosmo, regularly bypasses the durability of characters with plenty of atomic level feats which range from laughing at absolute zero to withstanding atomic destruction by inferior beings. DB characters won't be an issue based on their current resistance to matter manipulation techniques.

, why do you say he can bypass durability that allows a degree of resistance to several different levels of atomic attacks?

Because he's done so numerous times before, to more powerful beings than Goku and Beerus.

Also, superman, godzilla, thanos, all have resisted atom level attacks as well.

When has New 52 Superman survived attacks that target the atoms and destroy them? I don't recall that.

Where does shura resist being in a blackhole?

In Episode G: Assasin.

It is meant to erase a person from existence, their atoms being left behind for some reason is clearly not "being erased from existence"

Sidra never uses the words "erase from existence" when he explains what the Hakai energy will do.

goku may have his ordinary durability bypassed.

Which won't be an issue for someone who specializes in doing just that.

But their durability that helps them not be reduced to atoms

Their material durability. What about it?

stops transmutation from being 100% effective

Vegetto's was still 100% transmuted, though. He just kept his ability to think and speak (as did ordinary citizens) and could still fly as a piece of candy.

allows them to resist being erased

Resist being destroyed according to Sidra. You need to present evidence that he would be erased on an atomic/subatomic level and then prove Sidra's energy ball targets him on such a level before bypassing his standard durability before I can count that as a legitimate resistance feat.

, and saves them from gravity smashing their atoms is something seiya is not capable of bypassing.

Why is Seiya incapable of bypassing that?

He has only bypassed conventional durability,

As I mentioned above, this is not factual.

while db characters clearly have more than that, and it holds up against attacks on seiya's level and more

But none of the examples you've presented demonstrate Goku (let alone the relevant character to this thread) resisting attacks that bypass standard durability and target you on an atomic level from the start? Not that any of them are close to Seiya's level in any facet, to be perfectly blunt.

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#31 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

It proves nothing even remotely relevant to the debate here. Ki blasts need to first bypass a DB character's material durability before they reduce him to atoms. Seiya can attack Beerus' atoms without having to worry about is standard durability, although that wouldn't even be a problem for someone of Seiya's caliber regardless.

Exactly. Their durability also stops attacks that work on an atomic level. Seiya can bypass standard durability, but which object/person whose durability he bypassed has more than conventional durability?

What are you talking about? Boo explicitly states that he would turn Vegetto into a piece of candy, which is precisely what happened. Vegetto being able to move around as candy doesn't mean he managed to defend against having his atoms transmuted. The effect was still successful in that regard.

100% successful transmutation = Vegetto turned into normal chocolate like others.

That did not happen. Vegetto resisted it so he retained his power and speed, making it an example of resistance to transmutation.

It shows Goku is capable of withstanding high gravity to the point where his body won't be condensed, which would in turn cause his electrons to collapse in on the nucleus and combine with the proton. That isn't the same as Seiya straight up powering through his nucleus and tearing it apart with his Cosmo-enhanced punches. He doesn't need to worry about condensing Goku or ripping his material body apart before having an effect on his atoms.

so his durability keeps his atoms safe from collapsing. This is not something normal durability (like seiya bypasses) is able to do.

gravity doesn't target anything specifically. It works from particle to particle on at least subatomic level. If it has to go through goku's durability but is unable to, why would seiya's attacks, which work on a similar level, be able to go through? There is no way that seiya targets fundamental particles more than gravitation does, and neutron star level+ gravitation clearly works on even deeper level that seiya.

Seiya has brought down Poseidon's mainstay, which is protected by his Divine Cosmo--reflecting all attacks from non-deities--and strengthened by Athena's own Cosmo, regularly bypasses the durability of characters with plenty of atomic level feats which range from laughing at absolute zero to withstanding atomic destruction by inferior beings. DB characters won't be an issue based on their current resistance to matter manipulation techniques.

please post the scan of this object resisting anything on atomic level.

When has New 52 Superman survived attacks that target the atoms and destroy them? I don't recall that.

he survived doomsday's aura, which was doing things like transmuting sand to oynx and removing molecular cohesion.

In Episode G: Assasin.

specifically?

Sidra never uses the words "erase from existence" when he explains what the Hakai energy will do.

No Caption Provided

But none of the examples you've presented demonstrate Goku (let alone the relevant character to this thread) resisting attacks that bypass standard durability and target you on an atomic level from the start?

Because standard durability doesn't matter here. Seiya doesn't bypass non-conventional durability (like db characters have shown against atomic level attacks), so beerus does not need to worry about it.

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#32 Posted by Thordinson (1370 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya stomps.

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#33 Posted by God_Vulcan (7577 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya blitzes.

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#34 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

Exactly. Their durability also stops attacks that work on an atomic level. Seiya can bypass standard durability, but which object/person whose durability he bypassed has more than conventional durability?

Well, if you want to emply a little power scaling, like you've already been doing for DB so far, we have Gold Knights surviving the force of at least 2 Athena Exclamation attacks--each said to be equivalent to the power of the Big Bang which created the universe:

https://imgur.com/a/tKcMn

Technically, it should be more than just two going by what Aries Mu said before their attacks clashed, but we would have no how much the power multiplied:

https://imgur.com/a/tyHna

Additionally, Virgo Shaka's Gold Cloth took one at point blank range before the above scene occurred:

https://imgur.com/a/lCXu6

Yet we find out later on when we see him again that it wasn't damaged in the slightest:

https://imgur.com/a/KkS7w

Okay, so far we've established that Gold Cloths are capable of withstanding the power equal to that of the Big Bang without suffering so much as a scratch, along with God Knights Saga, Camus and Shiryu being capable of withstanding the force of at least 2 Athena Exclamation attacks (likely more) while completely drained on stamina and dangerously low on Cosmo. Why does this matter to Seiya, you ask? Well, first let's take a minute to see how the Gold Knights stack up against the three Celestial Star Judges of Hades according to multiple sources from the canon material:

https://imgur.com/a/mZJ9Q

Granted, Aioria Mu and Miro weren't at full strength when they lost to Rhadamanthys, but the other scans make it pretty clear the three Judges are above the Gold Knights and he himself states that it wouldn't have made much difference:

https://imgur.com/a/teSQX

We even have Rhadamanthys claim he could sack Sanctuary and take Athena's head within an hour if Pandora deployed him (also keep in mind that he would need to pass through the temples of the Gold Knights before reaching Athena:

https://imgur.com/a/ZQw1S

You may argue that the last two scans were just him overestimating his own capabilities, and that's a reasonable way to look at it. However, based on the other statements above (ones that come straight from the mouth of Bronze and Gold Knights), it's painstakingly obvious what the author was trying to convey.

Now we'll take a look at Thanatos and Hypnos--lower Gods that act as vassals to Hades:

https://imgur.com/a/cseRQ

Pandora herself refers to them as beings that make the three Generals (or Judges) of Hades' personal army look like mere infants and let's not forget, she was sending shivers down the Generals' spines quite a few times in the previous volumes.

Thanatos was capable of one-shotting 5 Gold Knights--shattering each of their cloths with a single attack:

https://imgur.com/a/Jf9AD

Keep in mind, these Gold Cloths, which were capable of tanking universal level attacks without receiving so much as a mark, had never been destroyed before Thanatos easily one-shotted them:

https://imgur.com/a/SsWnY

However, Thanatos was completely helpless against Seiya after he acquired the God Cloth, as he was casually blitzed multiple times and ultimately killed after Seiya reacted to and withstood his best attack:

https://imgur.com/a/oV5Wf

Immediately afterwards, he blew past Hypnos (he was in a hurry to give Athena her cloth), the stronger of the twins, with a single Meteor Punch and the latter was absolutely dumbfounded by Seiya's strength:

https://imgur.com/a/Zp3PB

In conclusion the pecking order goes something like this:

God Cloth Knights >> Hypnos > Thanatos >> Revived Ikki > Celestial Star Generals > Top tier Gold Knights > Mid Tier Gold Knights >= Hades arc Bronze Saints > weakest of the Gold Knights

Any 3 of the Gold Knights can produce and Athena Exclamation attack by burning their Cosmo and focusing it on a single point, while the strongest of the Gold Knights are at least multi-galaxy to universal in attack potency and can withstand the full force of 2 Exclamations without much issue.

As for Seiya's speed, he was capable of crossing through the Super Dimensional Space in a few minutes at the very most with his newly resurrected Bronze Cloth (vastly inferior to the Gold or God Cloths)--the timeframe is confirmed by both Hades and Shaka, and these statements were made even before the Gold Knights sacrificed themselves to bring down the Wall of Lamentation:

https://imgur.com/a/tu16u

Also keep in mind that the eclipse didn't even plunge the world into darkness until midway through the fight with Hades, which happens after Thanatos and Hypnos are defeated, so saying it took them an entire 3 minutes to cross 10 billion plus galaxies and spaces in between to reach Elysium is already a very conservative timeframe.

Thanatos' attacks were also capable of crossing this distance, and even more, within seconds when he killed Pandora and tried to kill Seika, who was back on Earth in the main universe:

https://imgur.com/a/f256V

The best speed feat Seiya can scale to is in Episode G: Assasin, where Shura's attack exceeds the initial expansion of the universe:

https://imgur.com/a/NZgvP

How fast was the expansion speed thought to be? Well, pretty damn fast according to the numbers provided by Alan Guth, the man who originally proposed the theory that is now a part of the Big Bang model. A physicist by the name of Dr. Don Lincoln calculated its speed using Guth's numbers and the result came out to over 3 septillion c. Now, you could argue that we can't prove this theory to be true, even though the manga is clearly making a reference to it, given the Big Bang is a canon event in the Saint Seiya verse, but please don't forget that you're arguing a feat of Goku tanking a pseudo black hole and our understanding of them relies mostly on theory at the moment.

With all this out of the way, you're free to provide some examples for Beerus, or anyone weaker that he could scale to, that would show he's on the level of God Cloth Seiya when it comes to speed, attack potency, durability, etc.. For the conventional durability point you made way above (no, I didn't forget), since you're scaling Beerus to base Goku, you can also post some durability feats for him as well.

100% successful transmutation = Vegetto turned into normal chocolate like others.

Why would he turn into chocolate when Boo specifically stated coffee candy? Jokes aside...

That did not happen. Vegetto resisted it so he retained his power and speed, making it an example of resistance to transmutation.

What exactly does retaining power and speed have to do with anything? He was still transmuted into a piece of candy at the end of the day. How powerful and fast that candy is doesn't negate the fact that the transmutation itself was successful; he did become a piece of candy.

so his durability keeps his atoms safe from collapsing.

His resistance to higher levels of gravity keeps his material body from 'collapsing'.

This is not something normal durability (like seiya bypasses) is able to do.

It's just resistance to high levels of gravity. Nothing to do with Seiya's matter manipulation that bypasses Goku's durability.

gravity doesn't target anything specifically. It works from particle to particle on at least subatomic level. If it has to go through goku's durability but is unable to, why would seiya's attacks, which work on a similar level, be able to go through? There is no way that seiya targets fundamental particles more than gravitation does, and neutron star level+ gravitation clearly works on even deeper level that seiya.

The gravity wouldn't destroy his atoms before bypassing his material durability by either ripping his body apart violently or crushing it together until all that's left are atoms and smaller particles. Seiya's matter manipulation technique makes it so that he doesn't need to worry about bypassing Goku's material durability, not that it would be an issue regardless, because rather than crush or pull apart Goku's body until there is nothing but atoms or smaller particles left to attack, he targets said particles right from the very beginning. That's why matter manipulation techniques generally bypass conventional durability. We've also seen Saints take this a step further and destroy light photons:

https://imgur.com/a/GYnCo

This feat was performed by a clothless Aioria in Episode G, back when he was still a bit of a rookie Gold Knight.

please post the scan of this object resisting anything on atomic level.

Poseidon deemed it to be indestructible... He knows full well of the Saints' ability utilize attacks on an atomic level which bypass ordinary durability. It was literally reflecting everything thrown at it and dealing the damage back to the attacker, and only once Seiya elevate this Cosmo to the maximum and created a miracle was he able to bring it down:

https://imgur.com/a/Iquv5

And besides, you still haven't posted scans of Beerus or anyone weaker than himself resisting attacks that break apart atoms by bypassing conventional durability.

he survived doomsday's aura, which was doing things like transmuting sand to oynx and removing molecular cohesion.

Do you have something saying his aura works on an atomic/molecular level? I'm referring only to New 52.

specifically?

He fell into a black hole and ended up in a different time where the universe was actively trying to destroy him because he created a paradox. A version of Athena then travels through space and time to bless Shura with her Divine Ichor, which restores him to his original state and counteracts the forces of the universe that are actively trying to get rid of him. This is actually a acausality feat, which also applies to Seiya, seeing as how he was bathed in Athena's Divine Ichor and that allowed him to resist being destroyed by the Super Dimensional Space that is only accessible to Gods.

Sidra never uses the words "erase from existence" when he explains what the Hakai energy will do.

And like I said, he never mentions anything about erasing something from existence. He merely said destroy, which is a loose term.

Because standard durability doesn't matter here.

You're right, because Seiya's technique bypasses standard durability.

Seiya doesn't bypass non-conventional durability (like db characters have shown against atomic level attacks), so beerus does not need to worry about it.

Seeing as how you've yet to post one definitive example of a DB character defending against attacks that bypass conventional durability by targeting the atoms and destroying them, and since Saint Seiya characters regularly utilize this very technique against each other, when far inferior characters to Seiya have laughed off attacks like absolute zero, survived atomic destruction and regenerated their atoms, and withstood the gravitational pull of black holes (not something that bypasses normal durability to target the atoms, but since you're using that example for whatever reason...), I'd say Beerus has quite a lot to worry about, especially when you include the overwhelming gap in stats.

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#35 Posted by Antonio_1996 (504 posts) - - Show Bio

Seiya stomps.

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#36 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

With all this out of the way, you're free to provide some examples for Beerus, or anyone weaker that he could scale to, that would show he's on the level of God Cloth Seiya when it comes to speed, attack potency, durability, etc.. For the conventional durability point you made way above (no, I didn't forget), since you're scaling Beerus to base Goku, you can also post some durability feats for him as well.

the links and explanation you posted upto this point are explaining power level of seiya, which I understand. I'll just first answer the part about conventional durability. Just letting you know I appreciate the effort you made and will not ignore any of it when are comparing their speed, dc etc.

What exactly does retaining power and speed have to do with anything? He was still transmuted into a piece of candy at the end of the day. How powerful and fast that candy is doesn't negate the fact that the transmutation itself was successful; he did become a piece of candy.

I think you are missing something very important, so please answer a question. Was buu trying to transmute vegito into:

1. A normal candy that he could eat

2. A candy which thinks and has power and speed of vegito?

The answer is clearly (1), but vegito resisted it and it was only successful till (2) - that's not a 100% successful transmutation, showcasing vegito's resistance (Not immunity, as you are expecting from him)

His resistance to higher levels of gravity keeps his material body from 'collapsing'. It's just resistance to high levels of gravity. Nothing to do with Seiya's matter manipulation that bypasses Goku's durability. The gravity wouldn't destroy his atoms before bypassing his material durability by either ripping his body apart violently or crushing it together until all that's left are atoms and smaller particles. Seiya's matter manipulation technique makes it so that he doesn't need to worry about bypassing Goku's material durability, not that it would be an issue regardless, because rather than crush or pull apart Goku's body until there is nothing but atoms or smaller particles left to attack, he targets said particles right from the very beginning.

That's why matter manipulation techniques generally bypass conventional durability. We've also seen Saints take this a step further and destroy light photons:

https://imgur.com/a/GYnCo

This feat was performed by a clothless Aioria in Episode G, back when he was still a bit of a rookie Gold Knight.

that's not how gravity works, it is constantly acting on all particles regardless of durability of the person, as long as it conventional. Neutron star level+ gravity, which operates on the same level as seiya's manipulation, is unable to get past goku's durability. Clearly, conventional durability does not stop gravity from crushing your atoms. You are saying seiya, who has only bypassed conventional durability, will be able to bypass goku's, which actually holds up against attacks on his level. That doesn't make sense.

Poseidon deemed it to be indestructible... He knows full well of the Saints' ability utilize attacks on an atomic level which bypass ordinary durability. It was literally reflecting everything thrown at it and dealing the damage back to the attacker, and only once Seiya elevate this Cosmo to the maximum and created a miracle was he able to bring it down:

https://imgur.com/a/Iquv

wait, so it was built to resist atom smashing attacks, and it failed to do so because it was hit with an atom smashing attack? That's clearly flawed. The scans don't even say anything about seiya bypassing it's durability, it looks more like brute force granted by a one time miracle.

Do you have something saying his aura works on an atomic/molecular level? I'm referring only to New 52.

yes, sorry I should have posted the panels before, this is them discussing about new 52 doomsday when he appeared

No Caption Provided

He fell into a black hole and ended up in a different time where the universe was actively trying to destroy him because he created a paradox. A version of Athena then travels through space and time to bless Shura with her Divine Ichor, which restores him to his original state and counteracts the forces of the universe that are actively trying to get rid of him. This is actually a acausality feat, which also applies to Seiya, seeing as how he was bathed in Athena's Divine Ichor and that allowed him to resist being destroyed by the Super Dimensional Space that is only accessible to Gods.

I was asking about chapter when he falls into a blackhole

And like I said, he never mentions anything about erasing something from existence. He merely said destroy, which is a loose term.

"existence will be destroyed" is clear however, not loose, so the point is still the same.

Seeing as how you've yet to post one definitive example of a DB character defending against attacks that bypass conventional durability by targeting the atoms and destroying them, and since Saint Seiya characters regularly utilize this very technique against each other, when far inferior characters to Seiya have laughed off attacks like absolute zero, survived atomic destruction and regenerated their atoms, and withstood the gravitational pull of black holes (not something that bypasses normal durability to target the atoms, but since you're using that example for whatever reason...),

conventional durability does not stop transmutation, atomization, destruction of existence, or your atoms getting smashed by gravitation, yet db characters have resisted all of that to varying extents.

I'd say Beerus has quite a lot to worry about, especially when you include the overwhelming gap in stats.

It looks like whatever stat gap you are expecting is the only thing beerus may need to worry about. He has non-conventional durability that can stop attacks on seiya's level of manipulation.

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#37 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

the links and explanation you posted upto this point are explaining power level of seiya, which I understand. I'll just first answer the part about conventional durability. Just letting you know I appreciate the effort you made and will not ignore any of it when are comparing their speed, dc etc.

Just to give you a heads up, those examples aren't all just displays of Saint Seiya characters overcoming conventional durability. The characters naturally defend against the Saint Seiya technique which targets the atoms and destroys them, though the technique seems to work depending on how high one can elevate their Cosmo. For example, Thanatos scoffed at Bronze Hyoga's absolute zero technique and said he would need to go several hundred times colder than that to have a chance at taking him down:

No Caption Provided

Once Hyoga upgraded to a God Cloth, he was able to take the stronger of the twins down with his ice technique:

https://imgur.com/a/9MpkX

I just posted the other examples to show why Seiya doesn't even need to to bypass Beerus' conventional durability (even though he can) to win here.

I think you are missing something very important, so please answer a question. Was buu trying to transmute vegito into:

1. A normal candy that he could eat

2. A candy which thinks and has power and speed of vegito?

The answer is clearly (1), but vegito resisted it and it was only successful till (2) - that's not a 100% successful transmutation, showcasing vegito's resistance (Not immunity, as you are expecting from him)

The answer is obviously 1, but I don't think you seem to understand that it has literally nothing to do with the fact that Boo's technique was successful in transmuting Vegetto's body into candy--matter was indeed altered in that situation. Seiya's technique isn't even transmutation, though I'd like some clarification on why this example is being used as evidence in the first place when not Vegetto fail to retain his human form.

wait, so it was built to resist atom smashing attacks, and it failed to do so because it was hit with an atom smashing attack? That's clearly flawed. The scans don't even say anything about seiya bypassing it's durability, it looks more like brute force granted by a one time miracle.

The Mainstay wasn't built for the specific purpose of resisting atom smashing attacks. It's been around since ancient times securing the safety of Poseidon's temple. With Athena being burried alive under the falling rain that was previously flooding the entire world, the pillar was stated to be virtually indestructible, and would remain in place even if the galaxy came to an end:

No Caption Provided

And here is the scan of Seiya stating that he would bypass its material durability by destroying its atoms and bringing it down:

https://imgur.com/a/mYPpN

yes, sorry I should have posted the panels before, this is them discussing about new 52 doomsday when he appeared

No problem. Based on that scan, it seems Doomsday's body was generating an intense heat, causing people around him to spontaneously combust and buildings to fall apart due to the extreme temperature overcoming the cohesive attraction that binds molecules together.

I was asking about chapter when he falls into a blackhole

I don't think they show him entering the black hole on-panel, but explain how traveling into one caused them to wind up in a different space-time where another exact copy of Shura exists, and that's the reason the universe was actively trying to kill him to get rid of the paradox:

https://imgur.com/a/kuthV

"existence will be destroyed" is clear however, not loose, so the point is still the same.

That statement isn't proof whoever is hit by the attack would be destroyed on a atomic or molecular level. Unless it specifically states that all matter which makes up whoever gets hit will be destroyed, that's not concrete proof.

conventional durability does not stop transmutation, atomization, destruction of existence, or your atoms getting smashed by gravitation, yet db characters have resisted all of that to varying extents.

Well, let's look at the examples you've posted so far one by one:

-Transmutation: Vegetto never actually stopped himself from being turned into a piece of candy, making that point moot.

-Atomization: Freeza was vaporized by Trunks' Ki blast and reduced to his smallest constituents of matter according to the guidebook entry. Not the same thing as bypassing material durability and targeting the atoms inside of a person.

-Destruction of existence: Can mean many things and doesn't necessarily prove Freeza or Goku resisted having their conventional durability bypassed. We only know that whoever is destroyed by this technique won't go to the Afterlife.

-Resisting a black hole: More of a standard durability feat, as black holes do not bypass your durability and target the atoms. They rip you apart or crush you until all that remains are atoms and subatomic particles and the gravitational force you experience depends on your proximity to the black hole's singularity. The closer you get, the stronger the gravitational pull will be.

It looks like whatever stat gap you are expecting is the only thing beerus may need to worry about.

Well, yeah, based on what has been posted so far for Beerus, I'd say he definitely needs to worry about it.

He has non-conventional durability that can stop attacks on seiya's level of manipulation.

I mean, you haven't really shown anything so far that would prove this. Most of the examples you posted are irrelevant, since they either do not bypass standard durability from the start or the character in question failed to successfully stop the technique from messing with his atoms. Furthermore, I've already shown scans where Saints far weaker than God Cloth Seiya focus their attacks to target even light photons and destroy them.

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#38 Posted by SuperGoku17 (2812 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by kaiocool (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

Just to give you a heads up, those examples aren't all just displays of Saint Seiya characters overcoming conventional durability. The characters naturally defend against the Saint Seiya technique which targets the atoms and destroys them, though the technique seems to work depending on how high one can elevate their Cosmo. For example, Thanatos scoffed at Bronze Hyoga's absolute zero technique and said he would need to go several hundred times colder than that to have a chance at taking him down:

Once Hyoga upgraded to a God Cloth, he was able to take the stronger of the twins down with his ice technique:

https://imgur.com/a/9MpkX

I just posted the other examples to show why Seiya doesn't even need to to bypass Beerus' conventional durability (even though he can) to win here.

ok, we will talk in detail when we talk about their stats

The answer is obviously 1, but I don't think you seem to understand that it has literally nothing to do with the fact that Boo's technique was successful in transmuting Vegetto's body into candy--matter was indeed altered in that situation. Seiya's technique isn't even transmutation, though I'd like some clarification on why this example is being used as evidence in the first place when not Vegetto fail to retain his human form.

It was not completely successful since vegito was able to keep his speed and power. A candy can't fly or fight obviously, a character with only conventional durability can't do that.

The Mainstay wasn't built for the specific purpose of resisting atom smashing attacks. It's been around since ancient times securing the safety of Poseidon's temple. With Athena being burried alive under the falling rain that was previously flooding the entire world, the pillar was stated to be virtually indestructible, and would remain in place even if the galaxy came to an end:

And here is the scan of Seiya stating that he would bypass its material durability by destroying its atoms and bringing it down:

https://imgur.com/a/mYPpN

So the door had conventional durability at galaxy level. Db characters have more than conventional durability, that's what not being bypassed.

No problem. Based on that scan, it seems Doomsday's body was generating an intense heat, causing people around him to spontaneously combust and buildings to fall apart due to the extreme temperature overcoming the cohesive attraction that binds molecules together.

it's not heat, it causes objects to just fall apart as it breaks molecular cohesion and even takes away energy. Superman is the one who survives being near it.

No Caption Provided

I don't think they show him entering the black hole on-panel, but explain how traveling into one caused them to wind up in a different space-time where another exact copy of Shura exists, and that's the reason the universe was actively trying to kill him to get rid of the paradox:

https://imgur.com/a/kuthV

1. it looks like a portal to a different dimension/doorway, going through portals doesn't need durability.

2. So can seiya bypass shura's durability by his atomic hax?

That statement isn't proof whoever is hit by the attack would be destroyed on a atomic or molecular level. Unless it specifically states that all matter which makes up whoever gets hit will be destroyed, that's not concrete proof.

their existence is destroyed, that is past molecular or atomic level.

Well, let's look at the examples you've posted so far one by one:

-Transmutation: Vegetto never actually stopped himself from being turned into a piece of candy, making that point moot.

but he stops being turned into a piece of candy completely, retaining his abilities - more than conventional durability.

-Atomization: Freeza was vaporized by Trunks' Ki blast and reduced to his smallest constituents of matter according to the guidebook entry. Not the same thing as bypassing material durability and targeting the atoms inside of a person.

not vaporized, atomized. showing ki blasts, which have the property to atomize things, are also stopped by db characters durability - so they have more than conventional durability.

-Destruction of existence: Can mean many things and doesn't necessarily prove Freeza or Goku resisted having their conventional durability bypassed. We only know that whoever is destroyed by this technique won't go to the Afterlife.

means one thing, not many - destruction of existence, and frieza resists it. Again showing more than just "convetnional durability."

-Resisting a black hole: More of a standard durability feat, as black holes do not bypass your durability and target the atoms. They rip you apart or crush you until all that remains are atoms and subatomic particles and the gravitational force you experience depends on your proximity to the black hole's singularity. The closer you get, the stronger the gravitational pull will be.

standard durability cannot stop your atoms getting smashed by neutron star level gravity or more. If you are saying gravity, more fundamental than seiya's attacks could not work on their atoms because their durability (making it clearly non-conventional), seiya cannot get past it either because he hasn't bypassed durability like this.

Well, yeah, based on what has been posted so far for Beerus, I'd say he definitely needs to worry about it.

the gateway feat you based on shows the door only has conventional durability, which can be bypassed by atomic level attacks. Db characters have more than conventional durability and it holds true on atomic level as well. Seiya hasn't shown to bypass something like that.

I mean, you haven't really shown anything so far that would prove this. Most of the examples you posted are irrelevant, since they either do not bypass standard durability from the start or the character in question failed to successfully stop the technique from messing with his atoms.

atomization, transmutation, neutron star level+ gravitation, destruction of existence none of it can be stopped by standard durability. What you are saying is they did not bypass db character durability, and that's because their durability is more than non-conventional. Not standard. They resist all of these to some extent, and seiya does not bypass similar type of durability anywhere.

Furthermore, I've already shown scans where Saints far weaker than God Cloth Seiya focus their attacks to target even light photons and destroy them.

beerus has been able to reduce energy to nothing as well.

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#40 Posted by Zokologue3 (109 posts) - - Show Bio

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

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#41 Edited by TheDeathstar (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

@zokologue3 said:

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Nope. DBS characters are leagues above any of the Seiya characters. They still haven't shown close to the Destructiveness, Combat Speed, Skill and Strength Dragon Ball characters hold.

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#42 Edited by Zokologue3 (109 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar said:
@zokologue3 said:

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Nope. DBS characters are leagues above any of the Seiya characters. They still haven't shown close to the Destructiveness, Combat Speed, Skill and Strength Dragon Ball characters hold.

You said that a hundred times and a hudred times we've presented scans and feats to you and i'm sure you'll still say over and over again.

DBS character are roughly sonic speed. it was proven with the dyspo vs hit fight: The sounds travel from hit's muscles flexions to dyspo's ears; Dyspo hears it; Dyspo blitz.

Saint seiya characters destroy atoms. They don't separate atoms, they destroy them.

Saint seiya characters are way above lightspeed. When you unlock the 7th sense, you'll automatickly become ftl.

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#43 Posted by Turr (353 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus. Ultra Instinct = perfect speed. Hakai = Perfect damage output. You can hardly find a counter for a character this strong. Seiya is definitely not one of them

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#44 Posted by Thekillerklok (6903 posts) - - Show Bio

@turr said:

Beerus. Ultra Instinct = perfect speed. Hakai = Perfect damage output. You can hardly find a counter for a character this strong. Seiya is definitely not one of them

Ultra instinct is all about reactions not speed...

Perfect speed would be instant movement through time and space.

And Hakai is frankly not even impressive in the category of spiritual attacks, I mean it's not bad but... perfect? really?

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#45 Edited by TheDeathstar (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

@zokologue3 said:
@thedeathstar said:
@zokologue3 said:

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Nope. DBS characters are leagues above any of the Seiya characters. They still haven't shown close to the Destructiveness, Combat Speed, Skill and Strength Dragon Ball characters hold.

You said that a hundred times and a hudred times we've presented scans and feats to you and i'm sure you'll still say over and over again.

DBS character are roughly sonic speed. it was proven with the dyspo vs hit fight: The sounds travel from hit's muscles flexions to dyspo's ears; Dyspo hears it; Dyspo blitz.

Saint seiya characters destroy atoms. They don't separate atoms, they destroy them.

Saint seiya characters are way above lightspeed. When you unlock the 7th sense, you'll automatickly become ftl.

You haven't represented anything. DBS Character are roughly sonic speed? Omg do you watch Dragon Ball at all? Earlier DB characters were Super Sonic and Hypersonic level with legit feats. Earlier Z characters were sub-relativistic and relativistic and Arguably FTL in Frieza saga. Just because Dyspo is stated FTL+ doesn't mean he is at low levels of FTL. it is said his base speed alone has surpassed sound and light through repeated battles, understand? Repeated battles means way before he even joined Pride Troopers since they don't accept weaklings do they? And He has an ability to amplify his already stated FTL+ speeds to thousands. FTL means any degrees of speed above light. Dyspo for one had almost blitzed Champa who is MFTL via feats and can fight at those speeds along with Beerus. For all, it doesn't disprove anything but just proves just how fast Dyspo is and Dyspo was already blitzed by Jiren and UI Goku who are on the levels of GoDs. Seiya characters do what again? Dragon Ball characters can erase atoms, destroy atoms, erase your physical body along with your spirit and some parts of you from other timelines. Even mortals like Goku have resisted Black Hole's inside in his Base Form, do you know what they do? They tore atoms apart and either delete them or turn them into plasmic quarks and not only this but even an existence erasure way before this tournament started and Beerus is way-way above all this. Seiya characters never are shown combat speed even close to what Beerus has. None of the Seiya verse has shown close to the D.C, Strength, Skill etc to compete with Beerus.

You made yourself look like one of those troll fools when you just said "DBS characters are roughly sonic speed". Please.

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#46 Posted by Lordragoon (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus is way above sound speed. You either a troll or big down player. Goku kehameha escaped a black hole which light can't even escape. Beerus has plenty faster than light feats as well in early DBS episodes. Also beerus takes this with hakai by easing him from existent.

@thedeathstar said:
@zokologue3 said:

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Nope. DBS characters are leagues above any of the Seiya characters. They still haven't shown close to the Destructiveness, Combat Speed, Skill and Strength Dragon Ball characters hold.

You said that a hundred times and a hudred times we've presented scans and feats to you and i'm sure you'll still say over and over again.

DBS character are roughly sonic speed. it was proven with the dyspo vs hit fight: The sounds travel from hit's muscles flexions to dyspo's ears; Dyspo hears it; Dyspo blitz.

Saint seiya characters destroy atoms. They don't separate atoms, they destroy them.

Saint seiya characters are way above lightspeed. When you unlock the 7th sense, you'll automatickly become ftl.

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#47 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

ok, we will talk in detail when we talk about their stats

You can post some feats for their stats and still discuss whether or not Beerus can defend against Seiya's atomic hax in order to avoid dragging this conversation on longer than it needs to be, because as of now, Beerus doesn't seem to have anything going for him in this fight.

It was not completely successful since vegito was able to keep his speed and power. A candy can't fly or fight obviously, a character with only conventional durability can't do that.

Once again, that's is completely irrelevant to the point. Just retaining his power, speed and consciousness doesn't change the fact that he failed to retain his human form--therefore, he did not resist the relevant aspect of transmutation. According to your logic, regular humans from One Piece have more than conventional durability, since they were transformed into toys, yet retained their ability to walk around and fight. A piece of candy with speed and power is still a piece of candy at the end of the day. Vegetto even refers to himself as the strongest candy in the world.

So the door had conventional durability at galaxy level. Db characters have more than conventional durability, that's what not being bypassed.

Well, not only have you failed to show more than conventional durability for DB characters so far, but the "door", as I specifically mentioned already, was protected by Divine Cosmo that repels blows and causes the attacker to be hit with his own technique. Poseidon thought it was impossible for a any of them to bring the Mainstay down, even with full knowledge of the Saints' ability to bypass normal durability and attack on an atomic level. Now, if Vegetto had actually prevented himself from becoming a piece of candy, you would be correct in saying that examples proves resistance to matter manipulation.

it's not heat, it causes objects to just fall apart as it breaks molecular cohesion and even takes away energy. Superman is the one who survives being near it.

Enough heat can break apart molecular bonds as well, and going by the first scan, he was causing water to boil and people in the vicinity to spontaneously combust. The jets also seemed to break apart similar to the buildings:

https://imgur.com/a/B5F9r

In addition to that, when Superman was affected by the Doomsday virus, he could not resist genetic mutation, which is the reason he transformed into this:

https://imgur.com/a/Tiu6b

Molecular level attacks =/= atomic level attacks, btw.

1. it looks like a portal to a different dimension/doorway, going through portals doesn't need durability.

How can it look like anything when we never actually see it?

There are real life theories suggesting black holes may lead to other universes/dimensions, but that doesn't change the fact that their gravitational pull is still thought to be immensely powerful. The very reason they're called black holes in the first place is because light is unable to escape from them.

Besides, there were many things about the love black hole attack in DBS that didn't correlate to any of our theories about black holes that may exist in real life.

2. So can seiya bypass shura's durability by his atomic hax?

Absolutely. Like I previously mentioned, the effectiveness of their fighting technique when used against other knights who have mastered it depends entirely on the difference in how well they burn their Cosmo. For example, Leo Aioria had his heart and right arm destroyed by the same atomic destruction technique all the Knights in Saint Seiya utilize in combat, yet by burning his Cosmo to its pique, he was able to restore his heart and reconnect his arm:

https://imgur.com/a/hg5ue

Now anyone with even a little knowledge on Saint Seiya should know Aioria is well above Shura, who is only a mid tier Gold Knight at best, and this is backed up by Gemini Saga in Episode G, when he directly states that Aioria is the only Knight who had attained a power rivaling his own:

https://imgur.com/a/hLaWy

In the events of the main story, years after Episode G and Episode G: Assasin, Pegasus Seiya's attacks were able to affect Aioria:

https://imgur.com/a/0x6aZ

Not to mention, I already posted examples of God Cloth Seiya pulverizing Thanatos' armor and killing him. It should go without saying that Thanatos is leaps and bounds above multiple Gold Knights, given the fact that he was able to one-shot 5 of them while destroying their cloths.

their existence is destroyed, that is past molecular or atomic level.

Existence being destroyed can mean many things. The soul being destroyed, thereby preventing one from existing the Afterlife, can mean the same thing without the attack destroying every last trace of matter down to the very subatomic particles. Unless there is something in canon stating that Sidra's orb of destruction destroys all matter, it's just an assumption.

but he stops being turned into a piece of candy completely, retaining his abilities - more than conventional durability.

How did he stop from being turned into a piece of candy completely? Just retaining your abilities doesn't mean you aren't still a piece of candy. In fact, it's literally mentioned multiple times by both Boo and Vegetto that he was a piece of candy, but managed to keep his power for whatever reason:

https://imgur.com/a/U9CtQ

The fact that he needed Boo to turn him back to normal doesn't help your case either. Nothing here suggests he can resist Seiya's atomic destruction.

not vaporized, atomized. showing ki blasts, which have the property to atomize things, are also stopped by db characters durability - so they have more than conventional durability.

Yeah, but the Ki blasts don't bypass conventional durability. The target your entire body and overcome material durability first. The remaining material is atoms and small, smoldering chunks of visible flesh going by the manga. It's not a technique that operates by bypassing material durability and targeting you on a molecular level or atomic level.

means one thing, not many - destruction of existence, and frieza resists it. Again showing more than just "convetnional durability."

Find me the definition that implies destruction of existence equates to having your material body destroyed right down to the last elementary particles and you'll have a case. Until then, it's nothing but conjecture.

standard durability cannot stop your atoms getting smashed by neutron star level gravity or more. If you are saying gravity, more fundamental than seiya's attacks could not work on their atoms because their durability (making it clearly non-conventional),

Except it can. Your neutron star example falls flat when the very formation of neutron stars compress matter (the core of a giant star) down to a point where electron degeneracy can no longer stop the collapse and the result is the electrons getting smashed together with protons in the nucleus. The force of gravity is not bypassing material durability in this case; it's crushing you down to the point where even your atoms are affected.

seiya cannot get past it either because he hasn't bypassed durability like this.

Well, even if your neutron star example constituted valid proof of more than conventional durability, this claim would be demonstrably false due to Capricorn Shura surviving the gravitational pull of a black hole and Seiya's technique working just fine on much stronger characters.

the gateway feat you based on shows the door only has conventional durability, which can be bypassed by atomic level attacks. Db characters have more than conventional durability and it holds true on atomic level as well. Seiya hasn't shown to bypass something like that.

Have you read Saint Seiya? Genuinely curious, because for someone who claims to have a good understanding of their powers, you sure don't seem to know much about the story itself. Seiya's ordinary attacks as a Bronze couldn't even manage to bring down the basic seven pillars that held up each of the oceans since the ancient days, yet you're telling me the freaking Mainstay, which was empowered by a divine being and could reflect blows back to the attacker, only had conventional durability? o_0

atomization, transmutation, neutron star level+ gravitation, destruction of existence none of it can be stopped by standard durability. What you are saying is they did not bypass db character durability, and that's because their durability is more than non-conventional. Not standard. They resist all of these to some extent, and seiya does not bypass similar type of durability anywhere.

Since I've already addressed each of your examples and explained why they either don't equate to matter manipulation attacks that bypass standard durability, have no evidence in canon backing up their supposed atomic/subatomic destructive capabilities you keep mentioning, or were just outright successful in affecting a character on that level, I'll just tell you to refer to my above points. Besides, you're completely wrong in saying that Seiya hasn't bypassed conventional durability before, which I've also demonstrated above. I've also been kind enough so far not to point out that your replies have been pretty short (like one or two sentences in response to most of my points), whereas I've been posting scans out the wazoo and backing all of my arguments for why Seiya stomps Beerus up with feats and statements from the source. Unless you start doing the same, I see no reason why this conversation should even continue, to be perfectly honest with you.

beerus has been able to reduce energy to nothing as well.

Through an energy nullification ability.

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#48 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Yeah, DBS top tiers can hardly defeat the most powerful of the Gold Knights, let alone God Cloth Seiya or the titans and Olympian Gods. They're just too slow and lack sufficient resistance to hax.

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#49 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (20258 posts) - - Show Bio

Beerus is way above sound speed. You either a troll or big down player. Goku kehameha escaped a black hole which light can't even escape. Beerus has plenty faster than light feats as well in early DBS episodes. Also beerus takes this with hakai by easing him from existent.

@zokologue3 said:
@thedeathstar said:
@zokologue3 said:

Pffffffffffffff When will you understand that saint seiya characters are leaaaaaaaaaagues above dbs characters?

Nope. DBS characters are leagues above any of the Seiya characters. They still haven't shown close to the Destructiveness, Combat Speed, Skill and Strength Dragon Ball characters hold.

You said that a hundred times and a hudred times we've presented scans and feats to you and i'm sure you'll still say over and over again.

DBS character are roughly sonic speed. it was proven with the dyspo vs hit fight: The sounds travel from hit's muscles flexions to dyspo's ears; Dyspo hears it; Dyspo blitz.

Saint seiya characters destroy atoms. They don't separate atoms, they destroy them.

Saint seiya characters are way above lightspeed. When you unlock the 7th sense, you'll automatickly become ftl.

Show a speed feat from Beerus that even puts him close to the level of Bronze Cloth Seiya. His best quantifiable feat is moving across a nebula in about a minute. Laughable compared to crossing billions of galaxies + spaces in between in a few minutes and reacting to attacks that do the same.

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#50 Edited by TheDeathstar (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

Combat wise they barely escape stated only "Light-Speed" attacks. Still not enough to blitz Beerus. I can agree their flight speed being much faster but that won't help in a fight where an opponent accelerates much faster than you move you hands. This also contradicts any done feats. As far as I am aware I haven't seen crazy combat fight speeds from SS verse like DB verse has right in the bag.

No Caption Provided
This ends all the hype about their on actual speeds which again's not combat speed and some of them consider only light speed a big deal.
This ends all the hype about their on actual speeds which again's not combat speed and some of them consider only light speed a big deal.