Battle of the Week Vol.3: Toji Fushiguro (JJK) vs Killua Zoldyck (HxH) vs Kidomaru (Naruto)

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darthjhawk

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#1  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

Welcome back to the BOTW! Its been a while since the last one, but I wanted to test this topic and others before hand. So we're bringing something a little different to you now. Without further ado!

Hunting Games: Showdown in the Forest of Death

No Caption Provided

Toji, Kidomaru, and Killua all are given one scroll of a three scroll set. They need the other two to complete their respective missions and have Intel that their targets are in the forest of death.

They each get three days of prep and basic knowledge of their opponents, think a wiki page.

Battle Location:The Forest of Death

No Caption Provided

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

General BOTW Rules:

  • Combatants are in character.
  • Fighters start at opposite entrances of the Forest
  • Composite Gear & Media allowed for all combatants
  • Energies will be Equalized
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future), or death all count as an elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fanfic.
  • If you think the votes aren't going how they should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in the Argument of the Week article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Cast your vote with your argument, I will tally the votes at the end of the week to determine the winner
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defiant_will

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Let's do this

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maestromage

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I’m probably gonna back Toji here. He’s a monster of stats and has impressed me a bit more than Killua and Kido in that category, and he’s an expert at what he does. Not that Killua and Kidomaru aren’t, but this is the guy who almost killed freakin’ Gojo Satoru with some prep time, and I’d wager he could do the same here

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pics

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I'd support Toji here, while strength isn't everything, I'd say he's the strongest here when it comes to a physical fight. Toji being able to physically destroy Dagon, someone who is capable of creating a domain expansion that has a large volume of water, sand, and rock. The feat having an assumed Mountain level yield. Domain Expansion's from my point of view should theoretically scale to the user's overall power because it's the manifestation of users cursed energy and it can be overpowered by being in possession of more cursed energy:

Jujutsu Kaisen Chapter 14

Implying that it's heavily dependent on the strength of users' cursed energy, rather than just being constructed in a way physical power is irrelevant to use such an ability. Speed and versatility should be up for debate, however, which in terms of versatility I think Killua takes.

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higherpower

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#7  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

The energy equalization probably benefits Toji the most, he’ll be inherently undetectable as if he was in a constant state of Zetsu due to completely lacking any energy whatsoever. In addition, the Inverted Spear of Heaven and Chain of a Thousand Miles are the most dangerous offensive assets; they’d negate any Nen or Chakra technique completely and he’d be able to do so with unlimited range from anywhere in the forest.

In terms of raw stats Toji should scale the highest. Entry level Special Grade Curse Spirits require carpet bombing to even stand a chance at defeating which would place them at bare minimum MCB+ level durability and they are fodder to Special Grade Sorcerers and Natural Disaster level Curses like Dagon. Toji bullied Dagon inside of his own Domain where Dagon would get a stat boost, and he stomped Geto in a direct confrontation who was already a Special Grade Sorcerer at the time, one with a Special Grade Curse that Toji no-diffed (Kuchisake-Onna, who used Domain).

In terms of pure AP, with items like Playful Cloud and his fur-tsuba broadsword (the kind Mai recreated) I’m confident in stating Toji could batter and butcher city level characters. His biggest accolade is being able to solo the entire Zenin clan on a whim which Maki basically just did in recent chapters, and she’s directly confirmed to be his equal in stats/power now after Mai helped rid her of her Heavenly Restriction. The Zenin Clan is also home to the fastest Sorcerers in the manga, like Naobito and Naoya who hold the Projection Sorcery techniques that can view the action of any being in 24 still frames per second, allowing them to move FTE to triple digit mach characters like Nanami and blitz Natural Disaster Curses like Dagon.

Toji is more conniving, resourceful, and relentless than Kidomaru and just flat out stronger than Killua. All my chips are backing him.

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defiant_will

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#8  Edited By defiant_will

I'm going to open this up by making a case for Killua. Before I can get into the battle at hand, I do want to take time to briefly go over his abilities and stats:

Stats

There is no better place to start than the Hunter Exam. To set a baseline, Killua can throw tags with such velocity that they clear past visibility distance in mere moments, and Hanzo is fast enough to intercept one of these tags from ground zero.

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 29

To cover such distance that the tag disappears from sight altogether (in a completely clear sky no less) would necessitate the tag travelling multiple kilometers, which comes out to about high supersonic. Which would apply to Hanzo by proxy given he intercepted it, and would make Hanzo significantly faster given he intercepted it despite the tags having a headstart. In terms of how Hanzo compares to Killua, Killua modestly admitted that Hanzo is stronger than his "normal mode (more on that later)." However, even then, the disparity in speed is hardly pronounced given Killua's claim that he could have easily dodged Hanzo's strike. An assertion only buttressed by Killua's own speed feats. For a quick refresher, FTE feats are quantified by taking the timeframe of 13 milliseconds (the maximum perception speed of a human), and then taking the distance a character crosses at FTE within that timeframe to find a speed. If you consider that sound can only cross a measly 4.5 meters within that timeframe, you should appreciate Killua casually clearing far larger distance within this timeframe (FTE). In that regard, the Hunter Exam has an embarrassment of riches as far as FTE feats are concerned, so I'm going to cut to the chase and cite the feat that seals the deal for speed of this level:

Hunter X Hunter: Episode 39

Kurapika, fresh out of the Hunter Exam, sees a supersonic projectile in slow motion as it approaches him and and times it mere inches away from his face. If if was ever questioned, Killua would scale massively above Kurapika in speed, even before acquiring Nen. Even Gon could perceive Gotoh's coins when both of his eyes were opened, which Kurapika explicitly could not do prior. And as I've shown before, Gon is still blitz material for Hanzo, with an attack Killua could easily react to no less. With this scaling in mind, it should be evident that even BoS Killua breaching into straight up hypersonic territory in terms of speed.

To further elaborate on Killua's speed tier, I am going to flash forward to Greed Island. Within this interval of time, Killua would acquire Nen, which would further boost his physical capabilities. On Greed Island, Bisky's training massively improved Killua and Gon's physical capabilities, namely through their sparring with Binolt. At first, it took Gon and Killua teaming up just to take down an exhausted and fatigued Binolt. But eventually, they get faster, to the point they can each take down a rested Binolt in a 1v1. To really hammer this home, prior to meeting Bisky, Gon and Killua were getting trolled by Hyperpuff Balls. They were unable to react to or track them, getting blitzed by them, and only moved a few feet as the balls bounced around the entire battlefield. Needless to say, the speed disparity was massive. However, after the Binolt training, Gon reacts to, tracks, and intercepts a Hyperpuff Ball in movement (Gon is Killua's equal, mind you). A night and day difference from before. With consideration with how fast even BoS Killua was, and factoring in the full extent of his speed increase, it is more than fair to put Killua at high hypersonic by the arc's end. Especially given Gon's own speed feat:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 180
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 180

Above, we see Gon's kick move faster than Genthru's explosion. As Genthru's explosion is visibly in the middle of expansion, we see Gon's kick tag Genthru right in the chin. Gon's kick would naturally have to move a far larger distance than Genthru's explosions in this instance, covering Genthru's height. Which is consistent with the anime depiction as well. We also know that Gon would have had to kick in the time interval these explosions were detonated, as Gon was exploiting Genthru's defenseless head area because of the aura he expends using his Hatsu explosions. Given that Genthru is only vulnerable when he uses his explosions, and that we don't see Gon move until after Genthru activates Little Flower, it is more than reasonable to assume Gon attacked within this timeframe, which fits in line with the pacing and structure of the scene.

By the Chimera Ant Arc, Killua keeps getting faster and faster. The beginning stages of the arc sees Killua and Gon getting manhandled by a Nenless Rammot in CQC, forcing them both to use Hatsu. As events pass, Killua is able to remove Illumi's needle. And when faced against a now Nen-amped Rammot-

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 219
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 219

-the tables had completely turned. With this staggering speed increase comes even more impressive feats, which can be observed during Killua's fight with Ikalgo. Ikalgo's Flea Bullets can cross absolutely MASSIVE distances in a single second. To really crunch the numbers here, I'd refer to this specific shot:

Hunter X Hunter: Episode 100
Hunter X Hunter: Episode 100

The smoke in the screenshot above came from Centipede's explosion attack just prior, and reveals Killua's rough positioning. Note that this smoke mass lies on the horizon from this view. The view in question is just below Ikalgo's eye level, which is still a significant viewer height considering that Ikalgo is on top of a massive rock structure, visually 20 meters or so. Plugging in a twenty meter viewer height (which is more than fair; this is 20 meters high) would make the smoke cloud roughly 16 km away. Since Killua was not at that exact spot, to be conservative, I'll assume a 14 km distance away from Killua himself (which is unfairly generous). Which yields just under Mach 40 speeds for the bullet. These numbers are not meant to be rigid values, but even tinkering with lower viewer heights (and thus lower horizon distances) and then subtracting KMs away to (very) generously account for Killua's positioning still yields a bare minimum of Mach 23+ (I plugged in a 12 meter height as the lowest end, and that's just absurdly low). And logically speaking, a projectile would have to be that fast to clear massive swaths of forest land in an instant.

Now, Killua was tagged at first because he was caught by surprise, and didn't know where he was being tagged from or who was attacking him. So, Killua focused and extended his aura to 57 centimeters so, as soon as the bullet went into that area, he would know where it was coming from. As a result, Killua was able to react to and dodge the flea bullet from 57 cm away, in what the manga describes as "superhuman reflexes and pure speed". Dodging projectiles generously placed shy of Mach 30, and realistically within the Mach 40 range (though even that was conservatively calced) from 57 meters away is nonsensically impressive. But, it should really come as no surprise. After all, a feat of this caliber is merely the natural evolution and power progression of the hypersonic speeds Killua was clocking in at even in HxH's infancy. I will leave things here for now as, like I said before, both Maestro and I have plenty more to show and I don't want this post to be too lengthy.

Though Killua is admittedly a character that is typically portrayed as a speedster in verse, that is not to say he is lacking in other stats. To nip the notion straight in the bud, I don't want to pull any punches.

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 236
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 236

Above, Killua face tanks a direct explosion from the Carabid Beetle. The first scan (remember this is right to left) shows the size of the surrounding trees, which visually appear to be building sized. The explosion in question dwarfs these tree by an absolutely massive margin. A lot of the calcs (based on this calc) I've seen circulating around on this feat put it at city block level, but that is through using the diameter of the trees to find the size of the explosion. When, in reality, the explosion dwarfs the height of the trees (remember this explosion was launched at around ground level), by the dozens to boot. I think the methodology of these calcs, in using the diameter of the trees to find the explosion size as opposed to their height, was way too generous, to the point of dishonesty. Realistically, this explosion should yield multi city block level in output as a bare minimum, especially when you consider this explosion packed the concussive force to violently fragment these trees into dozens of pieces, hundreds of meters into the air. And despite being positioned at the epicenter of the explosion, Killua is borderline unaffected by the blunt force impact, and only appears to be phased by the heat of the attack. Naturally, this puts Killua at multi city block level as a comfortable baseline.

This showing directly ties into Killua's AP as well. Given that the Carabid Beetle is creating and projecting this explosion from his... uh... rear end, he would need to be able to tank the MCB levels of concussive force he is exerting by Newton's Third Law. The Carabid Beetle is literally no name fodder in the grand scheme of things, and we don't even know if he has Nen. As for how this is relevant to Killua's AP, I've already shown Killua mangle a Nen-amped Rammot, who at the very least should be relative to the Carabid Beetle physically speaking, but should reasonably be superior to him in that respect. In other words, Killua should be able to physically bully characters as durable as the Carabid Beetle. Which would definitely explain why Carabid Beetle was actively running away from Killua and sought back up, and would be consistent with Killua's confidence that he would kill the Carabid Beetle with his bare hands. Carabid Beetle even admitted he would not stand a chance against Killua in a 1v1.

Rammot being that durable would also be consistent with his own feats. Prior to acquiring Nen, Rammot still had the staying power to retain consciousness after being hit by Gon's Jajanken. For transparency, Rammot wasn't in the best condition afterwards, but the fact that he was still conscious and that his body was not turned to mincemeat (like what Killua did to his amped version) speaks volumes. To put this into context, this was a Gon early in the Chimera Ant Arc. Though Gon gets massively stronger as the arc progresses, this version of Gon would still be superior to his Greed Island Arc iteration.

At the arc's climax, Gon's Jajanken gets a more impressive feat against Genthru. Even though area of destruction appears to go out of the frame, I'll assume it stops there. Based on the available visuals, it should have a roughly 10 meter radius.

Based on subsequent perspective shots, it is also fair to conclude the depth of rock destroyed was 10 meters. Meaning that we are talking a bare minimum volume of 750 m^3, and that's solid rock. As for the manner in which Gon destroyed it, given Gon blew away this mass of rock into chunks and pieces, creating a hole with depth, it is fair to say this is violent fragmentation. Running the numbers, this would be low city block level. Remember that the version of Gon that fought Rammot is massively stronger than the Gon that accomplished that feat. And also remember that Rammot endured that attack without Nen, was amped on Nen when Killua one shotted him and eviscerated him.

Abilities

The best place to start is with Killua's trademark: his claws. Besides straight up punches and kicks, Killua's claws are his goto attack options, especially when he wants to end a fight quickly and efficiently. Killua has been seen stabbing at vital areas with his claws to confirm a swift assassination and has the skill and precision to carve out the hearts of his opponents.

Killua also comes with equipment in the form of his Yo-Yos. On paper, Yo-Yos seem quite out of place for "a killer's toolkit", but in true HxH fashion, Killua proves us wrong with his methodical precision and technique. The anime version of Killua vs Sub does the best job in visualizing just how skilled Killua is with this weapon. In that clip, we see Killua's dexterity and accuracy, supplemented by the significant range of the Yo-Yos. To highlight a particular scene, Killua swings his Yo-Yo in a linear trajectory at Sub, which he manages to dodge. From there, Killua curves his attack, which tags Sub and uses the built up centrifugal force to break through his guard. Killua has also shown great dexterity with his Yo-Yos against Shoot's hands, defending against high speed projectiles that can actively change direction, positioning and angling. I'll add that Killua's Yo-Yos mesh well with his arsenal given that Killua can directly conduct his electricity through them, which can be used to incap enemies.

This segues perfectly into Killua's Hatsu: His electric aura. As a transmuter Nen-type, Killua can transform his Nen to have the properties of electricity. Killua mostly uses this to temporarily paralyze enemies. During the Palace Invasion, Killua paralyzed Youpi with his "Thunderbolt" attack, which lasted long enough for Knuckle to launch a flurry of blows on a defenseless Youpi and then clear the scene completely. The speed of this attack is also noteworthy as it statues Youpi and Knuckle from a significant distance away (Youpi being at the very least relative to base Killua). This technique is not limited to paralysis, and is capable of destroying individual cells. It can also be used in tandem with other facets of Killua's arsenal. I already showed Killua using his Hatsu in conjunction with his Yo-Yos, but he has also done it in conjunction with his claws as well. Against a Rhino Chimera Ant too durable to pierce with his claws, Killua uses his Hatsu to whittle away his durable hide which allows Killua to kill him with his claws.

I've seen nothing to imply either Kidomaro or Toji won't be paralyzed by Killua's Hatsu, which is a risk they can't really afford to take against someone who will go straight for the kill. Like so:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 269
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 269

However there are even more dangerous ways for Killua to apply his Hatsu. In order to combat the unique and lethal Nen ability of the Ortho Siblings, Killua developed a new way to apply his electric aura to massively amp his reaction speed. Rather than have to wait for his nerves to transfer information to the brain, which then signals a response, Killua shrouds his body with aura so that an electric signal is sent to muscles as soon as the aura senses an attack. In other words, it is as close as one can get to instantaneous reactions. In practice, Killua uses this very technique to catch a dart as it materializes on his forehead.

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 240
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 240

To elaborate on the dart instance specifically, Killua's aura picked up on malevolent intent and immediately initiated a pre programmed response in the body as opposed to sending that information to the brain. Functionally, this means that Killua's body is conditioned to automatically and unconsciously retaliate to any malice his aura picks up from opposition, which allowed him to accomplish the dart feat:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 281
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 281

Killua can take this to the next level with his Godspeed. His speed is massively increased, to the point that we see Godspeed Killua moving at the same speed as Post Mortem Pitou. As for why that is impressive, a Pitou that was fresh out of the womb accomplished a high hypersonic feat against Kite:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 198
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 198

For context, the Chimera Ant Nest that Pitou leaped from boasts absolutely colossal sizes, easily thousands of meters high. Using angular sizing, and factoring in the height of this structure, we get a distance of roughly 25 kilometers. And in all honesty, that fits the scene like a glove. We can see lakes running within that distance, and the sheer breadth of the topography coincides with a 25 kilometer area. As far as timeframe, goes, many calcs use human reaction time since Kite was unable to react. However, to be conservative, I'll stick with one second, which makes this feat Mach 72. This falls short of MHS in isolation, but remember that in high stress situations, Pitou can go faster. Pitou's speed comes from contracting her muscles and leaping off. During the Palace Invasion, Pitou's leg muscles swelled up to twice the size they were against Kite, implying she got proportionately faster:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 267

And on top of that, Pitou can amp her physicals even beyond that with Terpischora, which lets her surpass her physical limitations. And the cherry on the cake is that Pitou would be further amped by Post Mortem Nen:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 307

Those are three tiers of speed boosts between Post Mortem Pitou and base Pitou (one of which is implied to be two times increase), and even then, base Pitou pretty casually accomplished this Mach 72 feat. It is hard to envision Godspeed Killua matching her speed not being up to par with CS2 Sasuke's speed. Which also goes well with Pouf admitting that Godspeed Killua would be hard for him to catch, even at full power. Mind you, Pouf can move at such high speeds that Zeno's Dragon Shards appear to be at a nigh stand still:

Hunter X Hunter: Episode 112
Hunter X Hunter: Episode 112

The speed of these shards are high supersonic to low hypersonic. In the scenes we see with Pouf and the shards in frame, he clears a distance of at least 50 feet in the time span that these shards cover one or two feet. This checks out to be well over Mach 100 for a full power Pouf, and Godspeed Killua would be faster significantly given Pouf admitted Killua would be very hard to catch. I think all of this fits together quite well and proves that even MHS speeds are hardly out of Killua's ballpark. There are other feats I can show of course, but I think this does its job for now.

As someone who was bred to become an assassin since he came out the womb and who has engaged in life or death stealth simulations as a toddler, I think the terms of this encounter plays well into Killua's strengths and experiences. With prep and knowledge, I don't envision Killua doing much more than forming a plan of attack and familiarizing himself with his surroundings. As mundane as that may sound, that has served him quite well in the past. Specifically in his encounter with Sub:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 178

"A series of a traps" would be the most apt way to describe this encounter. To open up this fight, Killua makes their battle a cat and mouse chase, in order to condition Sub to be focused on a 1v1 and not his surroundings. These mindgames would give Killua the edge he needed later on in the fight. Once the chase ceased, and the battle began, Killua recognized a blindspot in Sub's attacks, specifically when he raises his right arm as he kicks. In order to exploit this blindspot, Killua artificially creates a blindspot of his own that Sub picks up on and attempts to exploit with a kick, which allows Killua to exploit Sub's blindspot with his Yo-Yo. He intentionally let go of one of his Yo-Yos because he anticipated that Sub would throw something at him, which baited Sub into a feeling of comfortability and led to him not accounting for Killua's second Yo-Yo. The latter of which was likely made possible due to Killua's initial mental conditioning. ALL OF THIS was carefully and meticulously planned and executed within their brief exchange. I'd like to think this feat speaks for itself in reflecting Killua's uncanny ability to pick apart his opponents, discern blindspots, bait out reactions, play mindgames, and anticipate attacks, all pretty much on the fly.

A wiki page's worth of information should really be all Killua needs, but even in the scenario of unforeseen developments, Killua's experience has allowed him to remain calm and evaluate his options. For context, Menthuthuyoupi, a Royal Guard that dwarfs all of the Hunter Extermination team in power and combat ability, was not expected to encounter them so soon. In fact, the plan was more of a divide and conquer, methodological approach. However, even with a new development seemingly throwing that plan out the window, Killua remained calm within the storm:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 266
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 266

I think traits like these are important within scenarios like this. The ability to remain calm under pressure, formulate strategies, and assess variables as they arise is a boon that really can't be overstated. Especially given that the name of the game here is going to be finding your opponents without being found. In regards to the former, Killua has proven himself extremely perceptive. Even when Meleoron was invisible and attempting to conceal his traces, Killua still felt his presence. Killua can feel the gaze of another person, and even identify his relationship with said person off of the gaze alone. We see this with Palm:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 293

I'd also like to highlight his methodology here. As soon as Killua felt himself being watched, he immediately positioned himself so he could not be seen whilst sticking out his Yo-Yo, using the reflection to see his pursuer. Stuff like this is second nature to Killua and speaks to how engrained his assassin lifestyle is. Additionally, since energies are equalized, Killua's Gyo would serve him well in countering any Chakra/Cursed Energy based concealing techniques. For example, Killua used Gyo to see through Hisoka's In, which basically allowed Hisoka to conceal his aura and make it completely invisible:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 57

So Killua shouldn't have too many problems as far as finding his opponents. The same can not be said for the vice versa. Even without Nen, Killua's footsteps are so quiet that even when running, they are barely audible to Melody. This being the same Melody that can hear heartbeats and hear footsteps of her targets from hundreds upon hundreds of feet away, using this to discern their location amidst a busy city in the middle of the rain. On top of that, Killua is a master of Zetsu, which is all about withdrawing your aura and concealing your presence. This also gives Killua's body transparency, even to those right in front of him. Killua is an expert in tailing to boot:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 90

In summation, Killua's gameplan here is to optimize his knowledge of his opponents and get familiar with the battlefield. Come the fight, he will use his experience and stealth to identify his opponent's positioning without being identified and then proceed to take the most optimal course of action. Getting the jump on one of his opponents or tailing one until they are in a disadvantageous position. To be honest, a stealth strat combined with a Hatsu that can paralyze foes gives Killua a lot of opportunities to create an opening to be capitalized on with a swift claw kill. Killua's Hatsu also serves as a safety net if he is unable to identify his opponents, as he will pick up on malice and automatically react.

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TheWatcherKing

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Toji based on the arguments made so far

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higherpower

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#10 higherpower  Moderator

@pics:

The feat having an assumed Mountain level yield.

Pretty interesting, hadn't considered using Domain Expansion for energy powerscaling. With Jogo's Domain being the heart of an active volcano, mountain level would actually be really consistent, and I couldn't imagine Hanami's would be any different.

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defiant_will

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#11  Edited By defiant_will

@higherpower: I will wait to see your response to what I said for Killua's arsenal and tactics, but I do want to address the notion that Toji is stronger than Killua. Based on what you've said, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to disagree, I just don't think it changes things. The nature of this battle as a "hide and seek" like mission where characters start on opposite sides of a dense forest gives plenty of ways for a strength deficit to be circumvented, which I've already outlined. Additionally, I also want to note that a strength disparity is nothing new to Killua:

The best example to this end would be Killua's fight against Palm. To give some background, Palm is an Enhancer, meaning she specializes in using Nen to amp her physicals. On top of that, due to her Black Widow, Palm had the luxury of maximizing her offense through Ko without having to worry about any drawbacks. Putting this into perspective, under normal circumstances, Ko can break straight through one's standard Nen defenses and shatter their bones. When you combine a purely Ko based offensive with a character already specializing in Nen physicality, Palm becomes quite the formidable foe, boasting raw power Killua admits is superior to his own. In spite of these unfavorable odds, Killua is still able to endure Palm's relentless offensive:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapters 293-294
Hunter X Hunter: Chapters 293-294

This showing is a testament to how Killua's Nen defenses and sheer endurance/willpower can compensate for offensive power deficits. I'll note that Killua admitted that he couldn't keep this up forever, but that's to be expected considering how powerful Palm is. I also don't think Killua will be in a solely defensive position against Toji like he was against Palm. After all, Killua didn't even want to fight Palm, and only wanted to stall so she wouldn't see Gon. In essence, I think this showing highlights Killua's ability to take hits above his weightclass. Meaning that taking a few licks from Toji should hardly be too detrimental overall. Especially given Nen defenses.

There are several Nen techniques that can be used to amplify defense. First, there is Ko. Ko distributes one's aura to certain areas of their body, bolstering Nen defenses on that specific body part at the expense of everything else. Used properly, this is a massive boon. For example, through Ko, Gon can defend against Razor's volleys, which holds the same power as his Jajanken.

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 163

The only reason he was ragdolled was because his legs were not distributed enough aura to effectively brace for the attack. That should hardly be a factor here since Killua has far better Nen distribution skill. To put this into perspective, Ko attacks deal serious damage when not blocked by Ko defenses, and the Jajanken is a Ko attack more potent than usual Ko attacks given the restrictions and risks Gon places on it. Ko can demonstrably defend against attacks tiers above what one would "normally" be able to withstand, which is enough to minimize attacks from physically superior opponents. And Ko is not the only Nen defense that exist. For example, Ken:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 141
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 141

Basically, this is Ko but used on your entire body. Though it isn't as potent as a Ko, it is still quite powerful and should be just as capable of defending against Toji. For example, Gon was able to defend against an attack he admitted would oneshot him:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 206

He does similar with Bisky, using Ken to defend against an attack that would've "smashed his face in" otherwise:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 141

Obviously, this strategy would require Killua to predict where Toji is going to strike him, but that is the foundation of Nen combat. To say Killua is well versed in anticipating the attacks of his opponents is a massive understatement: Ryu, a Nen technique, requires the user to adjust the offensive-defensive ratios of Nen output in accordance with that of their opponent, in order to effectively attack and defend. This not only would require the user to anticipate the next attack of their opponent, but comes with the caveat of also taking their Nen output percentage into account. And that is the basics of Nen combat, of which Killua learned with Bisky:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 142
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 142

I'd also like to note that Killua can rapidly adjust his aura defenses. During his training with Bisky, Gon and Killua were learning the basis of Ryu, adjusting their Nen defenses to counter one another's strikes. Initially, they performed this at low speeds in order to truly master the technique:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 142

However, when we flash forward to the results of their training, they are able to use Ryu at top speed, rapidly adjusting their aura defenses in the heat of combat:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 144
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 144

Even if you want to argue that these defenses won't completely negate Toji's offensive, it is undeniable that these Nen defense options will undermine the damage dealt to Killua. And that is coupled quite well with Killua's own staying power and pain tolerance.

Killua also has monstrous endurance. Even if Killua is straight up impaled, over and over and over and over and over, he has still been able to push through and persevere

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 239-240

(right click to "open link in new tab" if you can't directly access images)

  1. Stabbed through right hand
  2. Stabbed in the chest
  3. Stabbed in left shoulder and both thighs
  4. Stabbed through both arms and the foot
  5. Stabbed through right shoulder
  6. Stabbed through left hand and elbow
  7. Stabbed through right hand
  8. Stabbed in chest and through the right leg
  9. Stabbed through ear and left leg

Killua was literally turned to swiss cheese, and that was on top of getting shot by sniper rounds just prior (the flea bullet). And in spite of that, Killua is still able to win this fight. So, again, between Nen defenses and pain tolerance and endurance, it is hardly impossible for Killua to overcome a stat deficit. Especially so given the terms of the encounter hardly necessitates Killua having to outmuscle Toji.

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As far as I can tell Toji wins with the greatest of ease being as fast ( to faster ) then Maki who in recent chapters is blitzing mutiple Special - Grade Sorcerers. Not to mention in the recent chapter she ( Spoiler! ) She Blitzed Naoya

Someone that can basically change the consept of time, with his Ability.

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#13  Edited By HitTheAssasin

Stealth/Senses

I need to be refreshed on the abilities of Kidomaru and Killua, but I can say that Toji is an extremely dangerous opponent-for one, he totally lacks any kind of energy, which makes it nearly impossible to perceive him;

Jujutsu Kaisen Chapter 71 and 73

This, in combination with his natural speed and stealth make it so that the only one who has ever been able to perceive Toji while he was standing behind them was Satoru Gojo, a character whose eyesight works on an atomic level and whose fighting instinct is nearly infallible-for everyone else, it is virtually impossible:

Jujutsu Kaisen 0 Chapter 4 and Jujutsu Kaisen Chapter 71

And even then, when Toji is actually trying his best, he is still able to get the jump on Gojo from behind and even disappear from his eyesight, ghosting him entirely(context: he waited until Gojo was tired to maximise his chances):

Jujutsu Kaisen Chapter 70 and 71

In other words, Toji's stealth is extremely excellent and he will function very well in a scenario like this. It also won't be easy to catch him off-guard in turn, because one side effect of his Heavenly Restriction is that his senses were enhanced to the limit, to the point he can identify and track individuals using the residual odor they leave behind. He's also able to perfectly register and fight against cursed spirits, which are utterly imperceptible to people without cursed energy to the point one can literally be sitting on a normal persons shoulder, causing them physical distress and actively making sounds and they won't notice a thing:

Jujutsu Kaisen Chapter 73 and 77

In short, Toji's senses operate on a completely different dimension to normal peoples, so sneaking up on him is virtually impossible.

Stats

In terms of stats, Toji is pretty much top 3 in the verse thus far(inferior to only Gojo and peak Sukuna)-in other words, he scales to almost all of the speed feats in this thread HigherPower made a while ago, which I'll link:

Jujutsu Kaisen Speed Feats

When it comes to power and durability, he's very high up as well. For reference, early on in JJK, we were given a chart to explain the durability/power of Cursed Spirits dependent on their level(approximately);

JJK Chapter 6
JJK Chapter 6

As you can see, Special Grades are put at a level where Multi City-Block+ level bombs are only possibly effective against them-Toji is somebody who is more than capable of putting the hurt on such curses, even ones who are far above the baseline for Special Grade, such as Dagon, obliterating him in just a few blows when using one of the more powerful Cursed Tools in the verse:

JJK Chapter 110 and 111

Which in turn lines up with feats from the likes of Maki that involve performing feats like this with the same Cursed Tool as a side-effect of hitting a Special Grade Curse with it(who was actively resisting the impact)-Maki at the time had a far weaker version of the same Heavenly Restriction that gives Toji his physical abilities. His durability is relative to this, of course.

Equipment

In terms of equipment I think Toji is just outright the best here. He has Playful Cloud, a Cursed Tool that enables for massive destruction via the feats I posted above, and has also been sharpened into a piercing weapon by Toji. Furthermore, he possesses the Inverted Spear of Heaven, a piercing weapon that straight up cancels any and all techniques, which is obviously a huge advantage. This, he can use in combination with the Chain of a Thousand Milesto extend his range practically as far as he wants. Furthermore, he possesses tons of there weapons too, all stored in his cursed spirit pet, ranging from gigantic swords, to guns, to short swords, to daggers, all of which he can pull out at a moments notice;

Jujutsu Kaisen Chapters 70, 71 and 73

Now, obviously, he's also a master at using these tools. All Zen'in Clan males without cursed techniques receive gruelling training in martial arts(including Aikido, Kenpo and Sumo) day and night practically from their birth, and Toji stands at the pinnacle of all of this due to his stats, natural fighting instincts, experience and overwhelming senses.

While I'm unsure about Kidomaru, based on what's been presented I think Killua would have a rough time. Defending with Ryu against Toji would be tough not only due to his insane speed and skill, but also because he doesn't have Nen at all which would make reading his next moves much more difficult in comparison to the people Killua is used to fighting, especially when coupled with his stealth options. The range of different tools Toji can pull out on a whim would also be tough for Killua, especially considering the extremely brutal fashion in which Toji abuses his piercing weapons, such as vs Gojo;

JJK Chapter 72

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#15  Edited By defiant_will

@hittheassasin: Interesting, certainly an insightful post.

Stealth

I need to be refreshed on the abilities of Kidomaru and Killua, but I can say that Toji is an extremely dangerous opponent-for one, he totally lacks any kind of energy, which makes it nearly impossible to perceive him;

To my understanding, this only applies to extrasensory abilities. The five senses should still be viable as, from what I understand, Toji can still be seen, heard, felt, etc. If this is the case, this isn't really any different from Zetsu, which also conceals Killua's presence. However, it would be harder for Toji to circumvent Killua's stealth through the five senses as compared to the vice versa. As I've shown, Killua's movements hardly produce a sound and Zetsu gives him transparency even when up close (let alone when viewed from a distance). On the other hand, I haven't seen these things from Toji meaning that even if his presence is erased from supernatural sensory abilities, Killua's five senses should still help. Killua's sensory abilities are heightened to the point that he has been able to feel his target's "heart skip a beat" for the brief moment that they realize he is tailing them, and from a significant distance away to boot:

Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 90
Hunter X Hunter: Chapter 90

And again, I've shown how even without Nen sensory, Killua can discern positioning and information from feeling one's gaze alone. I'd also remind you that Killua's Hatsu would serve him well here. He can instantly react to various stimuli be it physical contact, crossing a certain distance, or just malicious intent. All in all, I really don't anticipate Killua having too many problems dealing with Toji. On the other hand, Toji's options of detecting Killua are limited as Killua's presence is concealed, he is hard to make out by sight, and he makes barely any sound.

Stats

Nothing much to say here. It seems you have a lower opinion than Vulcan, so by your interpretation of Toji, Killua and him should be neck and neck.

Equipment/Abilities

Furthermore, he possesses the Inverted Spear of Heaven, a piercing weapon that straight up cancels any and all techniques, which is obviously a huge advantage. This, he can use in combination with the Chain of a Thousand Milesto extend his range practically as far as he wants. Furthermore, he possesses tons of there weapons too, all stored in his cursed spirit pet, ranging from gigantic swords, to guns, to short swords, to daggers, all of which he can pull out at a moments notice;

These weapons are certainly deadly, but I can not stress enough how hard it is going to be for you to overcome Killua's instant reaction speed. Especially so when Killua knows to be weary of this attack and has mid ranged weapons of his own (Yo-Yos) to offset this offensive. I also have inquiries on how this works:

  1. How long do the effects of the Inverted Spear last?
  2. Does it cancel a specific technique? The scan in question says "Forced Stoppage of a Cursed Technique" which implies that it does this one at a time

I'd also like to note that Toji similarly can't afford to be tagged by Thunderbolt given it will paralyze him which can set up for a more lethal follow up or just straight up burn away his cells individually. And Thunderbolt can be used from a longer range at that. There are variants that can be used in CQC with similar effect (like Lightning Palm). There are also techniques that I think can give Killua an opening against Toji like Rhythm Echo, where, through a varying cadence of steps, the user creates afterimages to throw off their opponent:

No Caption Provided

This move is very in character for Killua, and is a perfect way to create openings for powerful attacks. To paint a better picture, visually, I will reference the anime depictions of the Rhythm Echo techniques:

No Caption Provided
  1. Killua uses Rhythm Echo to bait his opponent into a kick, leaving him open to a follow up attack
  2. Killua uses Rhythm Echo to trick a Chimera Ant Rhino (who has enhanced senses, mind you) charge headfirst into a tree

Killua can bait out attacks from Toji and follow up with a punish.

Now, obviously, he's also a master at using these tools. All Zen'in Clan males without cursed techniques receive gruelling training in martial arts(including Aikido, Kenpo and Sumo) day and night practically from their birth, and Toji stands at the pinnacle of all of this due to his stats, natural fighting instincts, experience and overwhelming senses.

All of this sounds great on paper, but Killua can match this. I mean compare that to the physical and psychological conditioning Killua underwent to become a literal living weapon. Between his electric torture as a baby, life-or-death stealth simulations at the age of 3, and competing in high level fighting tournaments at the age of 6 for 2 years straight. Killua is the epitome of what an assassin should be, from the tactics to the methodology to the raw stats. I've shown his skill feats, targeting vital areas and sensitive spots to maximize his attacks. I've shown his fight against Sub and how he exploited his blindspots. To seal the deal on just how dangerous a fighter Killua is, I want to cite this scene from:

Hunter X Hunter: Episode 100

(explanations are accompanied by gifs for emphasis/clarity)

Above, we see Killua's killer instinct, executing quick kills with literally any weapon and opening made available to him. He starts the clip stabbing an enemy in the back of the head with his claws. Two Chimera Ant Soldier retaliate simultaneously with whip-like attacks; Killua catches one and pushes the first enemy in the way of the other, stabbing him in the head again. Another two Chimera Ant Soldiers thrust at him with a spear and pickaxe respectively. Killua catches the pickaxe attack, disarming the pickaxe and using it to knock away another attacker before then breaking the spear. Killua then throws the pickaxe at one of his attackers from earlier, (Killua caught his attack and pulled him into the air), killing him. He then uses the broken spear piece to stab another attacker in the head before twisting the neck of yet another foe. From there, Killua retrieves the broken spear piece, pins down the last Chimera Ant, and prepares to kill him before he is interrupted.

Though brief, this scene perfectly sums up everything I've said about Killua thus far. His combat IQ, his situational awareness, his accuracy, and how that all allows him to take advantage of every opening to confirm a kill against his opponents. The kicker is that a vast majority of that clip was Killua using the weapons of his opponents against them, which is relevant here for obvious reasons.

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#16  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

In order to win the mission they need to obtain both scrolls, so if someone is willing to defend Kidomaru I'd be happy to engage; for now I'll address Killua.

@defiant_will

Stats

I do want to take time to briefly go over his abilities and stats

""briefly"" bro I'll choke you

Now, Killua was tagged at first because he was caught by surprise, and didn't know where he was being tagged from or who was attacking him. So, Killua focused and extended his aura to 57 centimeters so, as soon as the bullet went into that area, he would know where it was coming from. As a result, Killua was able to react to and dodge the flea bullet from 57 cm away, in what the manga describes as "superhuman reflexes and pure speed". Dodging projectiles generously placed shy of Mach 30, and realistically within the Mach 40 range (though even that was conservatively calced) from 57 meters away is nonsensically impressive.

So after eight paragraphs I've reached your conclusion and placement of Killua's speed. Don't have time to address each and every feat, and I know this isn't the limit of Killua's speed, but as a baseline this isn't enough to cut it here.

One of the earliest quantifiable feats in Jujutsu Kaisen involves Maki catching a bullet centimeters away from her head. Giving a whole new definition to point blank.

Mai's bullet was constructed from cursed energy. The initial revolver bullets were rubber to prevent fatal injury but their speed wasn't slowed (a handgun bullet can't normally snipe like this). Maki didn't move to intercept it until the bullet was about 4 centimeters from her eye, and Mai uses a standard modern Six-Shooter Revolver which typically have a transonic muzzle velocity. To account for the cursed energy amplification using a figure of mach 1 would give an accurate low-end timeframe for the bullet to make contact, which couldn't have taken more than 0.0001 seconds to hit Maki but she was able to swing her arm around and catch it within that time frame.

Maki is a 5'7 female so her wingspan is about 70 inches, contracting one arm would be moving at least 35 inches within that timeframe which results in her feat being mach 26 if you round up.

No Caption Provided

Another character who's speed will be important here is Nanami. Nanami outright statues the falling rubble caused from the explosion of his own punch that shattered the wall of the tunnel him and Mahito fought in.

He was able to blitz Mahito in this timeframe, cutting off his leg, then ominously warn him while casually strolling away while the debris was still suspended in midair as if virtually motionless. One thing we know is that Nanami was able to exit the tunnel before Mahito could see him because Geto later asked what happened to him and he thought he was crushed under the rubble.

No Caption Provided

We can use falling/gravity speed for the rubble. They didn't cross any discernible distance (so likely in the centimeters) making the timeframe for Nanami blitz and escape 0.001 seconds.

Nanami's feat here is mach 145, low end.

No Caption Provided

Lastly we have Naobito (and by proxy Naoya).

Naobito's Cursed Technique is blatantly accredited to him being known as the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer barring Gojo. He also uses the technique to blitz Dagon's Womb which is Special Grade Cursed Spirit, and in the process moving too fast for Nanami and Maki to even see what happened.

Even though that bit itself is scaling, the actual ability, "Projection Sorcery" can be calculated efficiently. It involves splitting a single second into 24 frames in order to view a predetermined set of movements that his opponent is going to make within that second. If Naobito touches his opponent with the palm of his hand, they are physically immobilized for the duration of one second, unless their movements break the laws of physics. Then he freezes too.

The Dagon feat is what I'll be quantifying. Naobito statue'd Dagon's Womb long enough to close the 15+ meter distance between them and freeze him by touching him, before punching Dagon out of the projection frame. He did this before Nanami could see as well. Nanami as we just established is around mach 150, so Naobito being able to move FTE to him would make him several times faster, upper MHS.

Toji's speed comes from mercilessly blitzing Dagon and his strongest Shikigami

Which Naobito was unable to do inside the Domain (albeit Megumi's interference negged the guaranteed hit) and also in a recent chapter he was confirmed to be capable of solo'ing the entire Zenin clan, and they're only alive on his whim. This includes both Naobito and his son Naoya who have the Projection Sorcery technique.

No Caption Provided

So Toji can steamroll characters that move FTE to triple digit mach sorcerers and view their next set of actions before they make it.

Realistically, this explosion should yield multi city block level in output as a bare minimum, especially when you consider this explosion packed the concussive force to violently fragment these trees into dozens of pieces, hundreds of meters into the air. And despite being positioned at the epicenter of the explosion, Killua is borderline unaffected by the blunt force impact, and only appears to be phased by the heat of the attack. Naturally, this puts Killua at multi city block level as a comfortable baseline.

Based on subsequent perspective shots, it is also fair to conclude the depth of rock destroyed was 10 meters. Meaning that we are talking a bare minimum volume of 750 m^3, and that's solid rock. As for the manner in which Gon destroyed it, given Gon blew away this mass of rock into chunks and pieces, creating a hole with depth, it is fair to say this is violent fragmentation. Running the numbers, this would be low city block level.

This is entry level Special Grade Cursed Spirit stuff, in other words complete fodder to Toji.

All Curses can be categorized into "Grades", a danger level assigned to a Curse based on how difficult they would be to exorcise if traditional weaponry could be used against them.

No Caption Provided

Special Grade Curses are the strongest type of Curses. There is a huge range in power within this Grade alone, but the minimum requirement for categorizing a Curse as such is seen above. Carpeting explosives such as cluster bombs "might" work, meaning this is the level of power you need to operate on to even stand a chance. What level of power would that be exactly? Well a single cluster munition shell can destroy an area up to four football pitches, which is about 7-8 acres or 4 city blocks.

No Caption Provided

A airplane's loadout would typically spam these, resulting in an area of effect that levels large portions of entire cities.

Abilities

Honestly, not sure how relevant any of this will be considering Toji carries Gear that will negate Killua's powers.

The best place to start is with Killua's trademark: his claws. Besides straight up punches and kicks, Killua's claws are his goto attack options, especially when he wants to end a fight quickly and efficiently. Killua has been seen stabbing at vital areas with his claws to confirm a swift assassination and has the skill and precision to carve out the hearts of his opponents.

Well Toji has a sword, lol.

No Caption Provided

That's about a 20x increase in reach compared to sharp fingernails, with the same goal of cutting.

Killua also comes with equipment in the form of his Yo-Yos. On paper, Yo-Yos seem quite out of place for "a killer's toolkit", but in true HxH fashion, Killua proves us wrong with his methodical precision and technique. The anime version of Killua vs Sub does the best job in visualizing just how skilled Killua is with this weapon. In that clip, we see Killua's dexterity and accuracy, supplemented by the significant range of the Yo-Yos. To highlight a particular scene, Killua swings his Yo-Yo in a linear trajectory at Sub, which he manages to dodge. From there, Killua curves his attack, which tags Sub and uses the built up centrifugal force to break through his guard. Killua has also shown great dexterity with his Yo-Yos against Shoot's hands, defending against high speed projectiles that can actively change direction, positioning and angling. I'll add that Killua's Yo-Yos mesh well with his arsenal given that Killua can directly conduct his electricity through them, which can be used to incap enemies.

Toji will have Playful Cloud here which is a three-sectioned-staff who's power increases depending on the strength of the user. Maki swatting Hanami with it is a great indication of the power gap that it can bridge (at least a tier).

I've seen nothing to imply either Kidomaro or Toji won't be paralyzed by Killua's Hatsu,

If the Inverted Spear of Heaven can nullify the powers of Satoru Gojo (to the point he actually disposed of the tool in-verse, LMAO) then rest assured that's not happening.

To elaborate on the dart instance specifically, Killua's aura picked up on malevolent intent and immediately initiated a pre programmed response in the body as opposed to sending that information to the brain. Functionally, this means that Killua's body is conditioned to automatically and unconsciously retaliate to any malice his aura picks up from opposition, which allowed him to accomplish the dart feat:

Very impressive but not as useful in a direct fight, especially since Killua doesn't have to luxury to block or catch any of Toji's weapons. So even if he can react to them, given basic knowledge his only option would be running away which would net him a loss.

Killua can take this to the next level with his Godspeed. His speed is massively increased, to the point that we see Godspeed Killua moving at the same speed as Post Mortem Pitou. As for why that is impressive, a Pitou that was fresh out of the womb accomplished a high hypersonic feat against Kite:

Those are three tiers of speed boosts between Post Mortem Pitou and base Pitou (one of which is implied to be two times increase), and even then, base Pitou pretty casually accomplished this Mach 72 feat.

In other words, you can scale Pitou to be as fast as Nanami, who couldn't track Naobito's movements, and Naobito is a member of an entire clan or powerful Sorcerers that Toji is confirmed capable of stomping by himself.

The Match

"A series of a traps" would be the most apt way to describe this encounter. To open up this fight, Killua makes their battle a cat and mouse chase, in order to condition Sub to be focused on a 1v1 and not his surroundings. These mindgames would give Killua the edge he needed later on in the fight. Once the chase ceased, and the battle began, Killua recognized a blindspot in Sub's attacks, specifically when he raises his right arm as he kicks. In order to exploit this blindspot, Killua artificially creates a blindspot of his own that Sub picks up on and attempts to exploit with a kick, which allows Killua to exploit Sub's blindspot with his Yo-Yo. He intentionally let go of one of his Yo-Yos because he anticipated that Sub would throw something at him, which baited Sub into a feeling of comfortability and led to him not accounting for Killua's second Yo-Yo. The latter of which was likely made possible due to Killua's initial mental conditioning. ALL OF THIS was carefully and meticulously planned and executed within their brief exchange. I'd like to think this feat speaks for itself in reflecting Killua's uncanny ability to pick apart his opponents, discern blindspots, bait out reactions, play mindgames, and anticipate attacks, all pretty much on the fly.

I think this is standard assassin stuff honestly. Killua outsmarting Sub is interesting but Toji with his tricks and planning skated around Satoru Gojo, who even though was a teenager at the time was already the most powerful person in the world. Toji's planning is incredible, he is extremely careful, patient and observant. He meticulously plotted a way to wear down Gojo using all of his resources available based on what he knew about the Limitless Technique and the Six-Eyes. There's a character named Tengen in Jujutsu Kaisen who is an immortal sorcerer, however, despite his immortality he still ages, so he needs a new body every once in a while to act as a vessel for him. Toji placed a bounty on the Star Plasma Vessel's head (Riko Amanai), in order to make Tengen assign Gojo and Geto to protect her, gradually wearing them down by making them fend off against the bounty hunters who tried to kill her.

Standard planning stuff right? Except, Toji takes it further. He knew the Curse Users stood no chance in winning, so it was free labor. He was manipulating multiple pieces in his overall scheme. And because there was a time limit to transferring the Star Plasma Vessel to Tengen, Toji calculated that Gojo would have Infinity constantly activated during the duration of the attacks, so Toji waited until he disengaged it to fight him.

Toji snuck into Tengen's Tokyo barrier, by making use of his lack of energy and also his supreme stealth, and got the drop on Gojo who's Six-Eyes can see at the atomic level because his guard was down and he was tired. But Gojo was in that state entirely due to conditions Toji masterminded himself...

What happens next shows he was even smarter; Toji took down the bounty after all the Curse User bounty hunters were defeated to create an illusion of false victory and allow the Star Plasma Vessel team to relax, thinking they were finished with their opponents by the time they had neared the time limit of the merger/transfer. So none of them knew about the existence of Toji even up until this point.

No Caption Provided

Toji is just as cunning in a direct fight, so these are the feats that will directly apply here, similar to your showings with Sub. He is extremely analytical and makes excellent use of his advantages, mainly his nigh-invisibility due to harnessing absolutely zero detectable energy. He calls himself the "Invisible Man" and was able to sneak into the Hall of Tombs corridor, right outside of Master Tengen's Domain, which is presumably even harder to find than the storehouses that gate Special Grade Objects like the Sukuna fingers.

More on the storehouses:

Highly dangerous Cursed Objects are protected in Jujutsu High's Buddhist Temple. The location of the building itself changes everyday, and the objects are kept in a storeroom that has over 1,000 doors—only one of which leads to them. And Tengen, an immortal sorcerer, is the only person who knows which one.

No Caption Provided

Tengen is one of the pillars of the Jujutsu society. Kind of like a God who doesn't interfere with any any affairs but oversees all and protects sorcerers with his barriers.

Toji is extremely deductive, he correctly surmised what Geto's ability was, he concluded what Kuchisake-Onna was capable of, and he created multiple counters to Limitless in his final match with Gojo. He usually does all this with a single glance, so he's incredibly perceptive at gauging powers and how to respond.

Versus Gojo (who has a way better powerset than Killua)

With basic knowledge, three days of prep, and his entire Cursed Tool Inventory, he shouldn't have any problems.

When you combine a purely Ko based offensive with a character already specializing in Nen physicality, Palm becomes quite the formidable foe, boasting raw power Killua admits is superior to his own. In spite of these unfavorable odds, Killua is still able to endure Palm's relentless offensive:

The issue here is that Palm isn't as strong as Toji, despite already being stronger than Killua, and she doesn't have things like Playful Cloud which amps output or Inverted Spear which nullifies powers.

Also, Killua's stealth options shouldn't work here for reasons @hittheassasin explained.

Obviously, this strategy would require Killua to predict where Toji is going to strike him, but that is the foundation of Nen combat. To say Killua is well versed in anticipating the attacks of his opponents is a massive understatement: Ryu, a Nen technique, requires the user to adjust the offensive-defensive ratios of Nen output in accordance with that of their opponent, in order to effectively attack and defend. This not only would require the user to anticipate the next attack of their opponent, but comes with the caveat of also taking their Nen output percentage into account. And that is the basics of Nen combat, of which Killua learned with Bisky

The last thing I'll touch on, Toji doesn't have Nen. This won't be Nen combat. He doesn't give off any energy at all, so Ryu won't work. There is nothing to sense from him, absolutely nothing. He's a ghost. The Curse that's stored inside his stomach cloaks him against any method of detection, rendering him utterly imperceptible, which is why he was able to sneak into Tengen's barrier. Tengen has barriers deployed all over the country of Japan for reference, and is aware of everything going on in the entire country at once. But Toji is still invisible to that. Same reason the Six-Eyes can't find him and they literally see the energy of the environment and atmosphere, even the residuals found on inanimate objects like buildings.

Again, this is Tengen. After failing to merge with the Star Plasma Vessel 11 years ago due to Toji's actions, Tengen literally became the world itself, his soul merged with the atmosphere/environment. Demonstrating that for as long as he's been alive, the entire purpose of Tengen is an overseer God type being with some kind of psuedo-omniscience and awareness.

No Caption Provided

So Killua is not detecting him at all.

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#17 higherpower  Moderator

I’m probably gonna back Toji here.

@pics said:

I'd support Toji here

Toji is more conniving, resourceful, and relentless than Kidomaru and just flat out stronger than Killua. All my chips are backing him.

Toji based on the arguments made so far

As far as I can tell Toji wins

I need to be refreshed on the abilities of Kidomaru and Killua, but I can say that Toji is an extremely dangerous opponent

@yamatama said:
@thewatcherking said:

Toji based on the arguments made so far

@defiant_will

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Killua claps because he’s the only one I know

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#19  Edited By maestromage

Hit and Vulcan have done a great job explaining why Toji is such a difficult opponent but I just want to expand more on his stats in terms of striking and durability.

As has been explained, MCB+ is the baseline level of stats for Special Grade curses, and when Vulcan says that this is nothing to Toji he really means it. A finger bearer born from a single one of Sukuna's fingers is a special grade, and yet a Sukuna with only two fingers is portrayed as on a completely different tier. (Right to Left)

JJK Chapter 8

We see this clearly in how he blitzes the finger bearer and takes its arm off like nothing and is insulted that they're even considered the same grade. Even then, we see that high-level First Grade sorcerers like Nanami and Todo (and other comparable characters like Yuji) are able to hold their own against even more powerful Special Grades like Hanami and Mahito relatively early into the series, with both Yuji and Todo being noted as strong enough to harm Hanami despite her durability being above that of other powerful Special Grades like Jogo. Jogo most notably is compared to a Sukuna with 8-9 fingers (think about the difference between 1 and 2 fingers) and also has an impressive standalone feat where he calls down a giant meteor (given the size it should be at least small-city level). To bring this back to Toji, not only did he stomp Dagon inside his own stat amping domain (Dagon is the third natural disaster special grade alongside Hanami and Jogo), he also tanked a hit from a young Gojo:

JJK Chapter 74
JJK Chapter 74

Who even back then was a special grade sorcerer considered the strongest in the world. On top of that, we've recently seen Maki, who is similar in stature and directly compared to Toji, completely demolishing top first grade sorcerers. I'm talking full blitz and one-shot type deal. She then goes on to roll through the strongest the Zen'in clan has to offer, practically no-selling their attacks and killing them with ease. Further backing up Toji's hype of being able to solo the clan even back when more of its strongest members like Naobito were alive. With his equipment, city-level is probably a fair placement for Toji.

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thEonE34gG

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I haven't watched JJK

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Maalik

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#21  Edited By Maalik

City level what exactly? What does that even mean? What's the implication here? Also I didn't know we were using versus battles calcs here?

So a special grade curse at least would require a cluster bomb to be taken down. A cluster bomb uses hundreds of shells to devastate an area the size of a football field or multiple city blocks. Toji can kill special grades therefor he's multi-city block-city level? Does nobody else see a disconnect in logistics here? What does city level or city block level even mean in this context? Toji isn't busting a city block or a football field with a single punch or any combination of punches. I don't think any character in JJK shown thus far could do that. None of this takes into consideration how he killed dagon either which was through piercing attacks, but I digress.

Also, none of this has anything to do with his durability. I'm not sure why people are equating durability with damage output.

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I haven't read all of the arguments in this thread but based on what I know about all three, Toji should win. Though I heavily disagree with the level of power he is being argued at.

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#23 CocaColaMan  Online

Kidomaru's just chopped liver apparently.

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#24  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

@maalik: Assuming you’re calling me out, can I first ask where you place Toji, or any God tier in JJK? Building level? Also, are you familiar with attack potency? Because the arguments aren’t that Toji can destroy city blocks, but specifically with the use of his weapons, he can harm characters within that tier of physicality. Something that legitimately shouldn’t be possible to deny.

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#25  Edited By Maalik

@higherpower: Not you specifically because you're not the only one who's made the argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong but AP is the amount of energy an attack has, DC is the amount of destruction it causes. Toji is being argued at multi-city block level AP because he can harm characters that require at minimum a cluster bomb to kill. But cluster bombs are a DC type attack rather than an AP type attack. I like this explanation from zaellaz.

AP and DC definitely correlate. But the direct correlation is AOE of the attack. Attacks have force. Attacks also have AOE or rather.. how big they are. The "force" of an attack.. people like to see what the "total" force is and say, "oh, look how impressive". That's the DC in most cases. What people never do is actually realize that the force "within" an attack is "spread" throughout the AOE of it. If you have an attack the size of a house and it's "total" force is say.. 1000 and you have this attack hit a target the size of a human. The target isn't taking the force of 1000. They are taking a "dividend" of the 1000 or "total" force. When we want to find the "potency" of something you need to think in terms of "volume". So if the "total" force is 1000. That means for every house of that size in space.. there is 1000 force. Well, what about the human sized target. For every human sized target.. how much force is "in" aka divided into the "total" force? That's potency. If we want to find how much energy it takes to vaporize basalt, we don't look at a "total" number of energy. That's stupid and useless even though everyone does it this way. To vaporize basalt, you need at minimum 24.7kj of energy "per" cm cubed. Or 24.7kj/cm^3. OR.... for every cm cubed.. it requires at least 24.7 kj of energy. Whatever the AOE of the attack is.. the "total" energy is irrelevant. As long as it's potency reaches the 24.7kj "per" cm^3.. it's potent enough to vaporize basalt. This is "literally" how potency works. AP is "literally" the only thing that matters against durability as well.

To walk you through my logic, let me give another example. Lets say character A can survive a nuke. Character B can punch out character A. Does character B have nuke level AP? Or lets say a spider-man villain can tank a building falling on him, and spider-man can beat that character down with punches. Is spider-man building level in AP? AP is the total measure of force, DC is the area that force is spread over. This is why its more impressive to survive planet busting blasts than it is to survive a planet exploding, etc etc. To be clear, I am defining an "AP level" as the amount of matter a given attack can destroy (vaporize, scatter, break, whatever). So when you say or imply that toji has city block level AP, I am taking that to mean his attacks have enough energy to destroy a city block but not the AoE/DC to do so.

A cluster bomb is a type of attack that releases 100-200 sub munitions that can carpet the range of a city block or a football field. Not necessarily destroy because these weapons are usually used as anti-tank or anti-personnel. This is more of a DC or AOE attack rather than a concentrated attack such as a bullet, missile or a tank round so it isn't very helpful in determining a curses baseline AP durability. Funnily enough, the previous 4 descriptions of attacks that might work given in chapter 6 are all AP based and then the last one is an AoE attack.

Regardless, we have to make an assumption here. Would it take all 100 bomblets focused directly on it to kill a special grade at-least? Or would it take a humanoid surface area amount to do the job? The manga uses the term carpet attacks specifically so I'm inclined to believe that its not the first one. So I'm left to primarily rely on what we see in fights as evidence, and go by a case by case basis considering not every special grade is the same, nor do even special grades on the same "level" have the same durability (dagon/hanami vs jogo).

Actually I suppose a larger issue i have would be the degree of vagueness being used here. You say that Toji can't destroy city blocks, but he can harm characters that are on that level of physicality. What does that mean? Full disclosure, I don't think any character in JJK could physically destroy a city block, through cursed abilities? Yeah as we've seen Sukuna and other top tiers do. But not in the way we see someone like all-might from MHA do so with just punches. Nor do I think any of them could tank an attack likewise with city-block level AP with what we've seen thus far. Toji also has attacks that bypass conventional means of blunt force durability through piercing and what not, though he was clearly physically overpowering dagon with his weapon. I'm simply skeptical of how impressive I should attribute that given the character only had one fight in the shibuya arc before toji killed him.

As for where I'd rank the god tiers, it depends. I don't necessarily believe again that they are all relative to each other in terms of durability or strength, rather they're the most powerful in the show for different reasons. Yuuta is probably top 5 in the show but I doubt hes physically strong as maki or yuuji. Someone like Mahoraga or 15 finger sukuna might be able to destroy a small building in a couple blows. Someone like Toji if I had to guess could destroy a tank or armored vehicle at-least with his weapons, which is why I think he wins here. Though I know more about him than Killua or Kidomaru. He's definitely stronger than that but I don't think he could demolish a building with his strength from what we've seen. But durability wise I'm skeptical any top tier barring sukuna or gojo with his infinite technique could tank for example, a building busting attack. And I certainly don't believe Toji is as durable as characters like Hanami.

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@maalik: I think you're focusing way too much on the specific example of carpet bombing. Ijichi isn't giving an example of a kind of weapon sorcerers would actually use, none of them have cluster bombs laying around. He's giving a reference point for how much energy it would take.

The difference between AP and DC is much the difference between physical and energy attacks, but again, carpet bombing is just an example of how much force is needed. He's giving a frame of reference for how powerful attacks should be to damage Special Grades. It wouldn't make sense for him to give a specifically energy based example given more sorcerers use physical attacks including Yuji who he was specifically talking to there. So he is talking about concentrated AP at carpet bomb level here.

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Giving Toji composite equipment kinda gives him a large advantage. Inverted spear of heaven would nullify killua's godspeed and other hatsu, effectively removing his only way of staying in the fight. Same applies to Kidomaru.

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This is such a refreshing thread.

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defiant_will

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@maalik said:

I haven't read all of the arguments in this thread but based on what I know about all three, Toji should win. Though I heavily disagree with the level of power he is being argued at.

Uhh, sir? How do you think Toji beats both Kidomaro and Killua if you don't even think Toji is MCB and even went as far as to say this:

He's definitely stronger than that but I don't think he could demolish a building with his strength from what we've seen.

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defiant_will

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I'll respond to Vulcan in a bit though based on his interpretation of JJK speed, it is definitely an uphill battle. I'll see what I can do

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@darthjhawk: Nice thread!

"Battle of the Week" you have any names that I could use, I wanted to make something like that. Though its a fight that has simliar characters ( like the cool and edgy ones )

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Maalik

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@sy8000: I might be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact that It is entirely possible to me that the top level sorcerers or "higher ups" as they're referred to do have access to that kind of technology and weaponry. Especially given the threat level placed on special grades which require the entire organizations attention, I believe he was speaking literally about the minimum to take down each grade.

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#33  Edited By Maalik

@defiant_will: How durable is Killua? And what does his piercing durability look like?

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@maalik said:

@sy8000: I might be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact that It is entirely possible to me that the top level sorcerers or "higher ups" as they're referred to do have access to that kind of technology and weaponry. Especially given the threat level placed on special grades which require the entire organizations attention, I believe he was speaking literally about the minimum to take down each grade.

Sorcerers have never used that sort of weapon. Nothing suggests they even have them. The most modern weapon any character has used is literally a normal glock.

He was speaking literally about how much energy it takes to defeat a special grade. It does not make sense for him to segregate it by explosions and physical force there.

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shirso

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Maalik does have a point tbh, the panel says "If traditional weapons were used..." so it's not really implying that amount of energy focused in a sorcerer's weapon rather literally carpet bombing a Special Grade.

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Maalik

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@sy8000: Not necessarily. If you recall Mechamaru for example, and later his giant mech. I would say thats technology beyond even what we're currently capable of in real life. If he can get his hands on something like that I don't doubt the "higher ups" can as-well.

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@shirso said:

Maalik does have a point tbh, the panel says "If traditional weapons were used..." so it's not really implying that amount of energy focused in a sorcerer's weapon rather literally carpet bombing a Special Grade.

It says if traditional weapons were used as a gauge. Not literally.

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@maalik said:

@sy8000: Not necessarily. If you recall Mechamaru for example, and later his giant mech. I would say thats technology beyond even what we're currently capable of in real life. If he can get his hands on something like that I don't doubt the "higher ups" can as-well.

Mechamaru can only do that with prep and heavenly restriction so he has nothing to do with anyone else here.

It makes no sense for Ijichi to be talking about military weapons to Yuji who was going to fight one with no such thing.

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Maalik

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@sy8000: I think it does make sense if you consider the scale of danger special grades possess to the society and organization as a whole. Supposing a special grade shows up, I don't see why it'd be out of the ordinary for the organization to have those sorts of weapons ready just in case. I don't think he was saying yuuji specifically, rather talking about the weapon quality needed to deal with one.

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@sy8000: The wording seems clear to me, if you used a cluster explosive on a Special Grade, it might work, that's it. Nothing in that scan remotely implies this in between step of that energy having to be concentrated in a weapon or whatever.

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@shirso said:

@sy8000: The wording seems clear to me, if you used a cluster explosive on a Special Grade, it might work, that's it. Nothing in that scan remotely implies this in between step of that energy having to be concentrated in a weapon or whatever.

I cited the exact wording. The context is he's talking about how much power is needed to beat them. No one is using an actual carpet bomb.

Examples 1-4 are physical and the one for special isn't. It's clear they aren't worrying about different attack types here. This just seems like really overcomplicating something straightfoward.

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As far as I can tell Toji wins with the greatest of ease being as fast ( to faster ) then Maki who in recent chapters is blitzing mutiple Special - Grade Sorcerers. Not to mention in the recent chapter she ( Spoiler! )

She Blitzed Naoya

Someone that can basically change the consept of time, with his Ability.

Didn't the chapter say Naoya is subsonic? Even when moving at his top speed

How is this impressive

No Caption Provided
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Maalik

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#43  Edited By Maalik
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Granted, she was weakened here. But the text does imply that a subsonic character regardless is notable in regards to her, even though she's supposed to be on the level of toji. I can see this being a problem for debating JJK for years to come lol

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It's supposed to be "exceeded" and not "Reached". The fanlation was inaccurate on that part.

If you want to check for yourself:

真依(まい)の命と引き換えに得た

呪力から脱却した鋼の肉体

しかし扇戦での負傷失血

炳(へい)との連戦

すでに亜音速を超えている直哉に対し

長期戦は不利と真希は判断した

(真っ向勝負っちゅーわけかい!!)

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del_torro

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@demoo: still too vague.

We could claim that since it just exceeds subsonic speed them its around transonic speed or sonic at best.

No proof of them reaching sonic or supersonic or even hypersonic speed based on that statement.

Ofcourse looking at people like Gojo, Sukuna, vulcano head, nanami and their fights it's obvious that they are at hypersonic to mhs levels of speed (heck, Maki in her weaker forms could catch a bullet)((inb4 we have no proof that bullets formed from cursed energy are as fast as real bullets)

Eh, could be a wrong translation or the writer shooting himself in the foot(like in the flash, he dodges lightning and statues a nuke then they some nonsense about him being barely Mach 3)

Anyways, I think the statement will make JJK battles more interesting. I'm tired of hearing about infinite speed Gojo

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deactivated-61919ebe21493

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@del_torro: Fan translations aren't accurate.

And you should know it makes no sense for him to be subsonic when Yuji who's slower as already reacted to multiple mach 1 attacks at once and did Yuji was A LOT weaker back then.

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Killua fodderizes both.

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#48  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

@maalik: Sorry for the late reply, thanks for your answer I'll start from the top.

City level what exactly? What does that even mean? What's the implication here? Also I didn't know we were using versus battles calcs here?

City level raw physical strength with Special Grade Cursed Weapons. In other words, using specific tools Toji is more than capable of harming characters who scale several stomps above entry level Special Grade Curses, who have physical durability potent enough to put the energy yield of a carpet bombing device into question of whether or not it can take them down.

If you want to debunk any calc feel free. Skepticism is understandable but discrediting it entirely based off it's source is just another way to avoid having to deal with correcting something you're incapable of correcting.

Correct me if I'm wrong but AP is the amount of energy an attack has, DC is the amount of destruction it causes. Toji is being argued at multi-city block level AP because he can harm characters that require at minimum a cluster bomb to kill. But cluster bombs are a DC type attack rather than an AP type attack.

To walk you through my logic, let me give another example. Lets say character A can survive a nuke. Character B can punch out character A. Does character B have nuke level AP? Or lets say a spider-man villain can tank a building falling on him, and spider-man can beat that character down with punches. Is spider-man building level in AP? AP is the total measure of force, DC is the area that force is spread over. This is why its more impressive to survive planet busting blasts than it is to survive a planet exploding, etc etc. To be clear, I am defining an "AP level" as the amount of matter a given attack can destroy (vaporize, scatter, break, whatever). So when you say or imply that toji has city block level AP, I am taking that to mean his attacks have enough energy to destroy a city block but not the AoE/DC to do so

I'll try to explain what HA was telling you in a different way so you'll understand. Jujutsu Sorcerers fight and exorcise Curses. The entire purpose of a Jujutsu Sorcerer's existence is to fight Curses. When Ijichi explained the Grading system that Curses are divided into, he used traditional weaponry as a reference point for their potency. How do I know this? Because number one, Curses are invisible and intangible to real world people and can't be exorcised by anything without Cursed Energy. Number two, the other Grades were stated to require baseball bats, handguns and tanks. Then we got to cluster bombs. These are all potency weapons employed by real world fighting forces like police and military, not Jujutsu Sorcerers. Some sorcerers can have weapons yes, like Cursed Tools, but there's no indication that any specific sorcerer is walking around with military planes and uses them every time they fight a Special Grade... So why should we assume that Special Grade tier refers to DC rather than potency, as Grade 4 through Grade 1 do? It makes no sense.

The only Sorcerers capable of fighting Special Grades at all are Grade 1 Sorcerers and Special Grades Sorcerers, and we've seen pretty much every one there is in the manga already, from both the Tokyo and Kyoto Jujutsu Schools, and all of them are melee fighters. Nanami, Kusakabe, Todo, Mei Mei, Yaga, Gojo, Geto, Yuki, Yuta, a majority of the Zenin clan. Ijichi was telling Yuji, also a melee fighter, the level of energy needed to interact with Curses, who are imperceptible to folks without Cursed Energy, as a measuring stick for the level of force that Jujutsu Sorcerers would have to employ to exercise them when they fight them. So it's very obviously not a literal comparison to the type of attacks higher ups would use to harm Curses, because Curses can't be harmed by physical attacks without Cursed Energy, and Sorcerer's would be obsolete if the higher ups could just use real world technology to exorcise anything when they wanted.

A cluster bomb is a type of attack that releases 100-200 sub munitions that can carpet the range of a city block or a football field. Not necessarily destroy because these weapons are usually used as anti-tank or anti-personnel

I already showed a graphic of cluster bombs, their mechanics, and their typical yields, and yet you say this. A cluster bomb is a single encapsulated artillery shell with dozens of sub-munitions inside it, the spread out damage comes from a plane spamming the bombs over wide areas, but the energy of each bombs is quantified at a certain yield and the sub-munitions flare the area of impact. Large scale attacks can devastate towns.

No Caption Provided

But none of this matters since I just explained Ijichi's comparison was a frame of reference and not a literal allusion so it'd remain a potency thing in the context of Jujutsu Sorcerer fights.

Well a single cluster munition shell can destroy an area up to four football pitches, which is about 7-8 acres or 4 city blocks.

No Caption Provided

A airplane's loadout would typically spam these, resulting in an area of effect that levels large portions of entire cities.

Regardless, we have to make an assumption here. Would it take all 100 bomblets focused directly on it to kill a special grade at-least? Or would it take a humanoid surface area amount to do the job? The manga uses the term carpet attacks specifically so I'm inclined to believe that its not the first one. So I'm left to primarily rely on what we see in fights as evidence, and go by a case by case basis considering not every special grade is the same, nor do even special grades on the same "level" have the same durability (dagon/hanami vs jogo).

The only assumption being made as far as this entire conversation regarding Curse Grades and their durability goes stems from your claims against HA/Sy, that the higher ups have and deploy traditional weaponry against Curses, which invalidates the entire existence of Sorcerers and defeats the purpose of it being a supernatural fighting manga. A concentrated energy yield makes the most sense since few characters in the series at all even use DC, but the characters who do have DC attacks support city block to city level conclusions.

Not even Special Grade being the same is irrelevant since they only get stronger, and the weakest ones are fodder to more powerful Special Grades and are inferior in every capacity. Yet to be considered a Special Grade at all, you have to at least be at the level of Ijichi's comparison. Otherwise you'd simply be Grade 1 or lower.

Actually I suppose a larger issue i have would be the degree of vagueness being used here. You say that Toji can't destroy city blocks, but he can harm characters that are on that level of physicality. What does that mean?

...What do you think it means? How is that not a vague statement in any way? He doesn't have the means to destroy large areas, we've only see him work with melee weapons, but they are weapons that take down very durable characters. And physically, his Heavenly Restriction has made it clear in all the times that he's been referenced that his complete lack of cursed energy gifted him with physical abilities far beyond a majority of the characters in the verse, so the scaling for him to characters with physical feats (some which I'll now disclose) is very solid.

Full disclosure, I don't think any character in JJK could physically destroy a city block, through cursed abilities? Yeah as we've seen Sukuna and other top tiers do. But not in the way we see someone like all-might from MHA do so with just punches. Nor do I think any of them could tank an attack likewise with city-block level AP with what we've seen thus far. Toji also has attacks that bypass conventional means of blunt force durability through piercing and what not, though he was clearly physically overpowering dagon with his weapon. I'm simply skeptical of how impressive I should attribute that given the character only had one fight in the shibuya arc before toji killed him.

As for where I'd rank the god tiers, it depends. I don't necessarily believe again that they are all relative to each other in terms of durability or strength, rather they're the most powerful in the show for different reasons. Yuuta is probably top 5 in the show but I doubt hes physically strong as maki or yuuji. Someone like Mahoraga or 15 finger sukuna might be able to destroy a small building in a couple blows. Someone like Toji if I had to guess could destroy a tank or armored vehicle at-least with his weapons, which is why I think he wins here. Though I know more about him than Killua or Kidomaru. He's definitely stronger than that but I don't think he could demolish a building with his strength from what we've seen. But durability wise I'm skeptical any top tier barring sukuna or gojo with his infinite technique could tank for example, a building busting attack. And I certainly don't believe Toji is as durable as characters like Hanami.

Out of everything stated here, there is one particular statement that fills me with ire:

"I'm skeptical any top tier barring sukuna or gojo with his infinite technique could tank for example, a building busting attack."

So you're just not reading the manga then.

Seeing as that was a high-rise building, what exactly would you call this?

So what is Mechamaru's attack then, wall level? Car level?

No Caption Provided

This is apparently sub-building also?

I guess this is ground level?

Or this?

Tree level?

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This was a casual punch and it did next to nothing to Maki (who's compared to Toji multiple times)

Sub building level is disgusting low-ball.

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