Battle of The Week: Superman vs Beta Ray Bill

I'm going with BRB for an 'in character' fight. He has all the tool Thor has, but none of the habit of holding back to protect the environment or let his allies get their shots in. And in BRBs case, has destroyed inhabited planets in order to deny Galactus a meal, so unless the stakes are really pathetically small, I don't see him throwing the fight over the possibility civilian casualties, at least not before Superman does.

Awww yeah.

This has surely been done before.

@major_hellstorm: This is for the Battle of The Week feature on the Comicvine battle boards. It's where the community debates and votes on who would win on a pre-selected battle for a week at the end of which the results are revealed, and highlighted arguments of the week are shown. It used to be run by a guy called @k4tzm4n who used to be a staff writer for Comicvine. After he left, it was revived by a group of posters who wanted to keep it going. Battles that have already been done on the board are allowed so long as it's never been a BOW prior to that.

Yeah, there's no way nobody thought of this before.

@lvenger: Oh, cool. I say Supes.

Superman beats him. Just like he beats Thor... Heck Thor is still more powerful than bill

The problem here for me is that I know exactly what superman is capable of in terms of his speed, strength, durability etc..

Whereas for Beta ray bill and Thor that knowledge is more skewed. Some claim they have street level reaction times and others say they are much faster.

I'm presuming superman won't be worthy of lifting stormbreaker?

If you remove superman's "vulnerability" to magic then it seems to me clear that he wins. Although he has tanked magical attacks before, it certainly increases BRB's chances of winning.

Morals off I would also go for superman but in this scenario I'm just gonna wait and see what other people say and then vote.

Why Beta ray bill wins:

Usually the first and foremost argument for superman is his superior combat speed. I have no doubt, not even slightest, that he has the advantage here, but it is not like Superman vs deathstroke. Bill can keep up, even if not evenly, he can still fight back. He has felt milliseconds like hours, has percieved Silver Surfer at multi-lightspeed, he has fought surfer in hyperspace. It is obvious that he can operate at "superspeed".

Now coming to strength, there is not much. He has escaped black hole's pull and lifted Asgard with the help from thor. He should be around Thor level, which is below clark.

Striking strength is where things get interesting. Bill has planet-busted. Superman's best striking feat is barely able to destroy moon after a build up and ending up KO'd. However, it is notable that he once destroyed a portion of moon without even directly hitting it. So, while Superman usually operates in the range of sub-moonbusting at his best, Bill at his best hits much harder. While both of them will hold back initially, Bill has much looser morals in the battlefield and won't hesitate going all out as soon as they exchange the very first hits.

Versatility is pretty clear. Superman has nothing but better flight and eye lasers. Bill has multitude of abilities which he consistently uses, including energy manipulation. He also has a range advantage.

When it comes to durability, Bill has shown to survive things like planet destruction. I know superman has also shown to tank that without scratch, but that is going into his best feats. Martian manhunter, an equal of clark's strength and slightly inferior in striking strength, has hurt him without much issue. Captain marvel was able to knock out Superman after 3 direct hits (I know superman didn't fight back and Bill's hammer is also magical in power). Bill who hits exponentially harder would have no issue knocking Superman out.

Superman on the other hand, would be hard pressed to even keep bill on hurting. Bill has shown amazing durability, consistently surviving direct hits which are capable of planet busting, like against mad Thor, and direct bullrushes into planets as well as planets exploding on him many times.

Even if Superman lands 10 hits for every 1 hit bill lands, bill would do more damage, as planet >>> moon.

@krleavenger Would be great if you provide some scans. I already made the argument for bill (see above).

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Superman FTW.

Bold prediction:

I see that apex is already salty.

Did I quote salty posts saying surf bill wins because he said he is power? Or because blackholemattermanipulation?

That is salty, not putting an effort of making a case for bill.

Thor is not more powerful than Bill, that's a preposterous thing to say. Bill is stronger than Thor by feats and is much more consistent in his high showings.

At his very best Thor may be equal to Bill, no more than that.

I'll have to go with my boy, Bill with a 6-7/10 majority, strength and speed may give supes a physical advantage but bill is a superior fighter who is very good with using the enchanted stormbreaker. In character I think bill takes a slight majority. bloodlusted clark i think takes a more healthy majority though.

I think Superman wins this.

@apex_pretador: Different thread, and that was more than a joke than anything, but lets try and not derail this thread.

I missed my chance to debate for Superman in the Superman vs Sinestro BOW, glad I can make up for it this time round.

Strength

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• 1-3: Stops a 70 mile ship moving so fast that it could split the planet's core and mantle.
• 4-5: Casually tosses a cruise ship away for miles and forces Captain Marvel to exert himself to stop it.
• 6-7: Casually lifts a mountain sized rock to contain Mount Kamehameha from erupting.
• 8: Blocks Wonder Woman's killstroke on Mongul.
• 9-10: Blocks Doomsday's punch.

Last 3 are Superman's blocking physical strength to show how he does have a chance of blocking one of Bill's hammer blows like that infamous moment from the JLA/Avengers crossover.

Striking Power

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• Batman with Superman's powers backhands Wonder Woman from the moon to the Earth.
• One shots Earth Man who had all of the Legion of Superheroes' powers.
• One shots a giant alien ship.
• One shots John Stewarts' construct with a full force punch.
• One shots Gor, a Kryptonian soldier.
• One shots a giant meteor that would have been a major threat to Earth.
• A younger Superman one shots Grundy with a blitz attack.
• 3 shots Mongul Jnr.

Although Bill has the clear edge in striking power, Superman definitely hits hard enough to hurt Bill in the current battlefield environment.

Durability

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• 1-3: Shrugs off a 10 megaton explosion without a scratch.
• 4-6: Tanks a hit from the Claw of Horus which essentially hit him with the force of the planet and fakes unconsciousness to blindside Hawkman and Captain Marvel.
• 7-11: Tanks being hit to the moon by blunt force vastly more powerful than the force needed for human made rockets to travel to the moon.
• 12-13: Survives an explosion equivalent to 100 million nukes at a weaker power level than his Pre Flashpoint peak.
• 14-17: Tanks a hit that sent him from Metropolis to Tokyo.
• 18-20: Tanks a punch that sent him from California to China.
• 21: Tanks a punch from himself in Bizarro's body that sent him through the Earth.

Durability is a major advantage for Superman just as Bill's striking power is to him except Superman's high resistance against blunt force and energy based attacks is the perfect counter to Bill's hard hitting battle style.

Combat Speed

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• 1: Blitzes Doomsday 4,035 times in a matter of instants.
• 2-3: Blitzes Amazo in less than a three tenths of a second.
• 4: Blitzes Doomsday in a multi hit after image combo.
• 5: Blitzes Ultraman with pressure points.
• 6: Blitzes Encandora and her goons in less than 3 seconds before her synapses fire.
• 7: Fights at hypersonic speeds.
• 8-9: Blitzes a ship travelling at extra saturated lightspeeds targeting its engine system.
• 10: Blitzes Tempest before he can even react.
• 11: Blitzes Maxima.
• 12-13: Casually evades Mongul leaving superspeed after images.
• 14: Blitzes Wonder Woman.

Even granting Bill doesn't share in his predecessor's horrible track record against getting speed blitzed, Bill's limited speed feats are not nearly equal to Superman's faster and consistent use of combat speed. Bill is still outmatched when it comes to fighting at high speeds.

Reaction Time

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• 1: Traces the lightspeed signals of a Kryptonian battleship.
• 2: Recognises Barry Allen and Wally West when travelling at lightspeed
• 3: Catches a bullet at point blank range.
• 4-5: Perceives lightning travelling in slow motion (appropriate) and reacts in time to save Jimmy from Livewire's electric blast.
• 6-7: Two microsecond reaction feats.
• 8-10: Reacts in a nanosecond to get a baby inside his Fortress before it causes an energy explosion.
• 11-12: A younger Superman reacts to Vorx energy laser weapons which travel at near light speeds.
• 13: Accelerates his perceptions and speed to hypersonic.
• 14: Tags Professor Zoom

Bill has a few reaction feats I'm aware of but he is not nearly as consistent at applying these speeds under regular combat scenarios for a majority of his fights. Thus whoever is quicker to react can make a crucial difference in this fight.

Energy Projection

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• 1-2: Freezes a giant moth creature.
• 3: Incapacitates Bizarro with heat vision and freeze breath.
• 4: Freeze breath pellets push Darkseid back.
• 5: Freezes Brainiac.
• 6-7: Heat vision pins Doomsday down and can be felt from blocks away.
• 8-9: Destroys a forcefield that Supergirl and John Stewart combined couldn't breach.
• 10: Blasts through Imperiex Probe.
• 11-12: Heat vision measured at nuclear level heat.

It's unlikely heat vision will have an effect on Bill's star level heat resistance and that Bill's storm and energy blasts provide him with superior energy output but this category is not a total loss for Superman.

Versatility

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• 1-2: Heat vision trickshots, one deflect shot, the other fired from high up in the sky.
• 3-8: Uses all his powers in combination against Mongul and an Imperiex Probe.
• 9-13: 4 uses of thunderclaps.
• 14-19: 3 uses of whirlwinds, including one at 200 miles a minute, one that destroyed an Imperiex construct and one that affected Captain Atom, Power Girl, Major Force, John Stewart and Starfire.

Here versatility is not just what different powers you have but how you use and apply them in combat as well. Bill hasn't fought someone who can multi task effectively in combat and the ways in which Superman can apply his powers in battle are a tesament to his superior experience. Speaking of which...

Combat Skill/Tactical Experience

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• 1-2: Calculates Shrapnel's melting point mid battle.
• 3-6: 3 instances of Superman using pressure points on super powered opponents.
• 7-10: Leads a group of old gods into a steelworks where the iron weakens them.
• 11-12: Strategically takes out a group of villains by using the environment and his sensory knowledge.
• 13-15: Divides Bizarro and Mongul to take them out seperately.
• 16-17: Uses his experience and fighting skill against Paragon who had copied and amplified Superman's powers.
• 18-19: Two more pressure points usage.

So Superman is not only powerful but he can be pretty smart and cunning at using on the fly tactics to adapt to who he is facing. Bill hasn't shown comparable strategic thinking to my knowledge.

Why both will be holding back

I think it's necessary to counter a certain predisposition of thinking when it comes to Beta Ray Bill regarding his more lax morals and less holding back. Superman obviously holds back in character but Bill is guilty of the same sin. This fight takes place in a city and Bill has clearly held back in New York City when he fought Red Hulk.

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Unless this shows Bill struggling with Red Hulk, BRB was holding back so his full power didn't wreck the city. And as for Bill destroying inhabited planets, that too is false. Even when Bill was destroying planets before Galactus got to them, he removed the denizens of the planet first.

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If the battle stays in the city, or even planetside, neither Bill nor Superman are going to be busting out their moon busting or planet busting blows. The difference between them though is that Superman's powerset works more effectively than Bill's does holding back and even assuming Bill doesn't hold back, Superman can tank his best blows and inflict damage on Bill in return. That's why I favour Superman over Bill for a majority.

@krleavenger:

This is flawed logic. Clark tanked Planetary Explosions more than once, just like Bill. Mostly all his foes like Lobo, Mongul, Bizzaro and so on failed to hurt him. Tanking planetary explosions is not a high end feat. Clark's high end feats are tanking Super Novas while being weakened

When did clark tank a supernova, let alone tanking supernova when weakened? And being knocked out =/= tank.

I already addressed clark has tanked many planet explosions without a scratch. Howeve,r this doesn't change the fact that he has been hurt by far less. Perhaps I worded it wrong & I shouldn't have used "highest feats" but "top feats". Fixed.

Besides of the fact that Clark tanked planetary explosions consistently. He consistently tanked Omega Beams which KOed Top Tier Powerhouses

Yes, Clark is tough. But we do not know how would bill fare against OE, nor is bill using it. OE is also a bit inconsistent. It failed to one-shot Cyborg superman (although it greatly damaged him)

Captain Marvel? You are aware Superman is vulnerable to magic? When Billy punched him he charged his fist with lightning of Zeus. When he KOed him Billy himself said "I got lucky, Superman is vulnerable to magic"

I addressed it. BRBill hits much harder than billy. His hammer is also magical. I'm not saying that he would 3-shot him or even 6-7 shot him, because superman has improved since then and he would also fight back this time. However, the blows are going to have a great effect.

MMH? That same MMH hurt Superboy Prime when he decided to stop jobbing

MMH's striking power is less than Clark, who is almost moonbuster. Bill has greater striking power than martian.

Superboy prime has been hurt by Bart allen, by krypto, by superboy and by superman himself.

Either way, Bill has damage output to hurt Clark, especially because of his vulnerability to magic but Bill is not more durable than Clark and Clark can tank his blows

Bill has damage output to significantly harm Superman. Actual planet-explosion (which releases energy over planet-wide area) and same energy concentrated in something as small as a hammer is widely different.

No, I never claimed Bill is more durable than clark. I did not even compare their durability at all. All I said was that bill is more than durable enough to significantly harm clark.

He tanked blows from Warrior Madness Thor without Mjolnir pretty good. But once Thor used Mjolnir, Bill was taken down pretty easily.

He still took 3-4 hits before going down. And thor was not holding back, so every hit was as strong as the last one.

Again this logic does not really work. If Hulk and Thor fight the same way Clark fought Doomsday, Hulk will win besides of the fact that Thor has better striking power. Why?

Because Hulk has a massive healing factor which can heal a large hole in his chest in 2 panels, andgets stronger while fighting in addition to significant durability.

Another point to make in favor of beta ray bill:

given supes has a speed advantage i think if they were to stay in that 2x2 block to avoid harming civilians that the battlefield favors BRB as clark wont have nearly as much room to blitz without damaging populated areas, which is a definitely concern with him in character.

Liking the arguments on both sides here.

Superman, says I.

Bill. One of the main advantages Supes has over Thor is Speed, but Bill doesn't have that problem. He also has similar striking power, the advantage of Magic and durability around the same level.

@krleavenger: Exactly why would pre-mongul training be totally irrelevant? Durability is an extremely hard trait to improve. For example, I can increase my strength 2-3 times by training, but I'd still be exactly as durable. Is there any indication that mongul's training also improved his durability?

Which just proves how WM does not amp Thor but unleashes all of his power. I mean Bill has planetary durability. Few planet busting+ blows will take him down.

Thor was not in WM, you know it. Another madness, similar to WM was amping him as specifically noted. The same thor brought down Silver Surfer down in 1 hit, and stalemated pissed off drax w/ pg.

by krypto,

Now you are just focusing on low showings.

No, Krypto is Superman's superdog. While not on superman level, he is still pretty amazingly powerful. Krypto can harm Superman lvl beings, and hurt even stronger ones.

So? Hank Henshaw would one shot Bill if not curbstomp him. Clark, Thor, Bill and Hulk are below him BY A LOT, even without the rings.

Hank wasn't even in his own body, and pre trainingClark then annihilated Hank after he was weakened by omega beams.

Anyways, since I'm making the case for bill, I might also add:

• Although both of them would hold back initially, Bill would be the first one to unleash himself, because of looser morals.
• Bill's hammer would prove to be a range advantage.
• Bill has superior energy projection, and energy-blocker

@lvenger:

• Votes last till Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Shouldn't BOTW be 7 days? That would be only 5 days.

@apex_pretador: That's my mistake, I'll try and correct that. Voting will indeed stay open till Sunday.

@lvenger: Also, why would a superman with a big armor and a minor healing factor (thanks motherbox) be far beliw his post crisis peak durability?

@apex_pretador: His durability at the time without those things was below the durability post training with Mongul and mental blocks.

@runekingthor98

Superman.

@krleavenger:

I don't know and to be honest I don't care. Mongul clearly stated Clark limited all of his powers with psychic blocks he put in his head. Once he removed them he unleashed all of his power. Clark limited even his freeze breath and heat vision. What logic implies training can increase those powers? None. Yet he did. Also Mongul did not train him to become stronger, he trained him to remove his blocks to realize his true potential and taught him how to fight and cut loose.

So, basically clark subconsciously held back. Further proves my point. You can't "hold back" durability.

No he did not. Far from it. He was actually overpowered still. Here is the full fight after he was hit by Omega Beams. Clark even cut loose more than he usually does.

He did annihilate him "THIS IS HEAT VISION"

Although cyborg rebuilt himself simulatneuosly while being destroyed.

@lvenger: Wow man, that's a CaV level argument hahaha. You haven't made it easy for other users to counter. Awesome post.

By the way, from what issue is the first scan of striking power?

@krleavenger: @apex_pretador:

I think you guys are doing a really good job debating and wanted to give y'all props.

So far from what you guys are saying it seems to be a bit of a 50/50 chance for either one of these characters to win. So far based on what you two have said I'm gunna have to give it to brb for the magic vulnerability that supes has. I can see this fight being a long good fight but that vulnerability is what keeps Clark in a loosing bet in my opinion. Cuz yes Clark can tank a planet busting attack. However a magical planet busting attack is way different. I look forward to seeing the rest of your guy's debate. In my opinion its brb 6/10 due to that magic vulnerability. If it weren't for that I can't tell who would win good job y'all.

Clark did not hold himself back. He created psychic blocks to limit his powers. LIMIT HIS POWERS!!! ALL OF THEM!!! It is not the same as holding back. Literally all of his powers were lower than they should be. Do you know why his telescopic vision did not give him the ability to see beyond Earth's Orbit? Well according to Mongul it is because he made himself believe he can't. Seriously, he was hurt by multi mountain busting attacks before. If you don't want to believe in statement, at least look at the showing. His durability reached levels we have never seen before Post-Crisis.

If for example a punch broke Superman's Jaw pre mongul, then it should break post mongul Superman's Jaw too. Superman's Jaw toughness hasn't changed, has it?

@spyda-man: Thanks

Well I might as well post some feats for Beta Ray Bill. He doesn't have as many showings as Superman does but he has very impressive ones.

Strength

Lifting

Alongside Thor, he lifts the continent of Asgard.

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Striking feats

This is where Beta Ray Bill should have the advantage.

He bullrushes Stardust( a herald of galactus) into a planet and then destroys the planet

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He also managed to crack the armor of galactus

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Speed

Travel Speed

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• escapes a black hole
• Travels across a galaxy

Combat Speed

Beta Ray Bill has a couple of FTL speeds in terms of combat which should allow him to compete with Superman.

He was able to fight and match Silver Surfer in hyperspace.

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Is able to perceive a silver surfer coming at FTL speeds.

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Beta Ray Bill's hammer, stormbreaker is able to circle a planet quickly and strike Stardust

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Durability

Beta Ray Bill has tanked planetary attacks on multiple occasions and continued fighting.

He survives a planet being busted right underneath him. He had the planet destroyed to starve Galactus

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Survives a planet exploding again. This time by stardust bullrushing Asteroth who was being held in place by Beta Ray Bill.

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He also tank a blasts from galactus that scorches a planet. This was while fighting Alpha Ray who didn't survive the blast.

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Versatility

Through Stormbreaker, Beta Ray Bill is able to absorb energy attack and even redirect them back. He does this against Stardust

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He can also use lightening. In a straight blast like he did against fernis or as an AOE attack.

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He can also teleport objects. Here he teleports a meteor towards ego the living planet

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@apex_pretador I think this covers most of the feats you mentioned

@johnny_odinson: Thanks, I appreciate that you liked reading it. The one of Batman with Superman's powers punching Wonder Woman? It's from Superman/Batman #56.