This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear. 616 Versions for both.
They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.
Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads
current Gorgon is a joke... in secret Empire he practically got fodderized by a heavily weakened and damaged Hercules (couldnt even dodge a blow from him) and his appearances in Old Man Logan have been... even worse.
Current Gorgon is a massive Jobber and would probably lose to Aunt May, but assuming this is prime Gorgon I think he can win for a few reasons.
Speed
I think that Gorgon and Spider-Man are pretty close in speed, but Gorgon probably has better use of his speed in combat. Gorgon‘s feat of reacting to Yo-yo, a supersonic speedster, and cutting her arm off before she could react in Secret Warriors 4 to me demonstrates what he can do to Spidey. I think his skill gives him an advantage along with speed as it can allow him to basically be faster then Spidey even if they have the same stats.
Gear
Gorgons sword basically means that as long as he can get a good hit on spidey he can oneshots him. While spidey has spider sense I think that is off set by Gorgons telepathy that he used in Wolverine vol 3 30 to stomp elektra. While webs can be helpful they have been cut by Taskmaster mid air so Gorgon can do the same thing especially since Gorgon has better speed feats then Taskmaster.
Morals
Both fighters are in character which initially gives a huge advantage to Gorgon as he will be going for the kill basically immediately whereas Peter will be hold back to a degree. Adding on Gorgons skill, speed, TP, and one shot weapon I see it very likely that’s he kills Peter before Peter gets serious. Furthermore Gorgons ability to turn people to stone should work on Peter as well and is likely something Peter would not suspect which could lead to his death.
I could elaborate on Gorgons healing factor and pain tolerance as to why he can take hits from Spidey but I think ive shown the main reasons he wins already.
Adding to the webbing part, Logan has also cut Kaine's webbing in mid-air which definitely means Prime Gorgon can. Peter did make Kaine's web shooters, right? Or are they organic, can't remember.
For this match, I think it's fair to look at all of Gorgon's showings and determine which ones seem valid and which... may be downplaying him. The same should really hold true for any character, though.
I think Prime Gorgon under Millar/Hickman has everything needed to win this in a close-fight. Speed-wise, he's quicker by a bit overall. Back in Enemy Of The State, Tomi already established that he's a beyond casual bullet-timer with feats such as consistently deflecting gunfire from SHIELD Agents, and even going so far as pulling a full 360 and swinging his sword around fast enough to deflect machine gunfire back at some SHIELD Agents. Normally I honestly think dodging bullets>deflecting and blocking bullets, but that's in the case of a singular bullet. Here, Tomi deflected a bullet then needed to move his sword fast enough to deflect the other bullets when they were <inches> from him, in dodging you need to move your whole body which is harder to do than just your arms, but the distance difference here is astronomical. I'd say they're pretty close in regards to reactions.
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #24; Wolverine Vol. 3 #31
Then there is that Yo-yo supersonic showing, which shows more control and precision in combat with your reaction times than anything I've seen from Peter:
Secret Warriors Vol. 1 #3
As for combat speed, it's a bit harder to determine that given Gorgon doesn't have many quantifiable feats, but we do know Tomi is consistently capable of dancing around and completely and utterly blitzing bullet-timers like they're slow. These bullet-timers include Elektra, this gal can deflect machine gunfire with her Sais at faster-than-eyesight speeds and even kick a sniper bullet out of the air. That didn't help her any against Gorgon. You can even see Tomi blitz and one-shot her as well as Wolverine at the same time in a short-burst after being impaled clean through by swords and certain adamantium claws, in addition to getting RPGed.
In fact, he's danced around and blitzed her another time in the same arc, just for the sake of consistency:
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #24
And there's the Shang Chi feat from Avengers World #3, where Tomi effortlessly destroyed him, completely and utterly blitzing him down. To be fair, Shang Chi was previously holding his own, but it was due to the Stark-Tech, trickery and tactics. When Tomi got serious, he blitzed him. And he's fairly fast. Shang Chi has dodged bullets inches from him with no effort at all. He's even danced around Zaran, a guy fast enough to casually deflect automatic gunfire like nothing. Basically Tomi blitzed Shang Chi, a character fast enough to dance around a person who deflects automatic gunfire. A bit of ABC logic, I know, but again, Tomi doesn't have many quantifiable combat speed feats.
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I'll delve on the topic of Wolverine. Logan has intercepted machine gunfire moving many many feet, ran to the shooter right after he shot the bullet and crossed 5-feet then proceeded to cut the gun apart before the bullet could even leave the muzzle, moved faster-than-eyesight, moved so fast while fighting Sabertooth that Psylocke struggled to keep track of them, has been noted to be comparably fast if not faster than Kaine and Spider-man by these characters themselves and tagged them, etc etc. Tomi seemed consistently faster throughout their fights. The first fight he wrecked Logan's shit along with Elektra and effectively blitzed both, all the while slaughtering SHIELD Agents by cutting off their heads (and, again, Gorgon was previously RPGed and impaled through his chest and lungs). Literally had Wolverine at his mercy (even saying stuff like "Damn! He's fast.") after curbstomping Elektra:
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #30
In their second fight the issue later (I only posted the relevant scans, you have the issue citation if you want to check the context), Gorgon was still faster. Not completely untouchable and untaggable to someone like Logan of course, but he still tagged and evaded moreso. By my count, Wolverine tagged him 3-4 times. Tomi tagged him about 7-8. That's twice as much. Note Logan had a way more powerful healing factor to heal getting impaled more effectively and faster (Gorgon had gotten impaled as well). This is also a damn excellent skill-feat - "Stop trying to match his skills." by his own admission and implication Tomi is a more skilled fighter.
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #31
Just to show you how much faster Tomi is than Logan, when he fought Shogun, he likened his speed to that of Tomi's, that's a pretty impressive statement given Shogun was dancing around Logan like nothing...
Wolverine Vol. 3 #57
I would show cutting feats for Tomi's swords, but I don't think Peter is sword-proof, so he should be cut to mince-meat rather easily. The reason I think Gorgon can win this fight is due to superior speed (and at least control of speed), far superior skill, telepathy and a weapon that can ignore Peter's durability and cut him easily. Here are instances of Gorgon mind-reading Elektra and SHIELD Agents using telepathy, seeing when and where she will strike, anticipating her every move:
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #24; Wolverine Vol. 3 #30
To be perfectly honest, Peter's more bloodlusted, stronger strikes should be enough to punch off Tomi's head. However I don't believe he'll ever get punched by a tank-busting strike or anything. Peter is morals on ergo I don't see him using such hits automatically and then there's Gorgon's superior speed, skill and move-reading (telepathy) preventing Spider-man from getting in any clean hits. Superior striking power doesn't matter when you can't consistently get clean hits. And the hits that Tomi gets tagged by, he can tank. IIRC, he's took RPGs, large multi hundred feet falls, and even a punch from Rockwell creating a massive concrete crater:
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Secret Warriors Vol. 1 #6
There's also his healing factor and pain tolerance. It's not Wolverine level or anything but it is good enough to heal getting impaled through the chest and likely through various vital organs in moments like nothing then go on to stomp Wolverine/Elektra respectively:
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Wolverine Vol. 3 #30
To Summarize:
The biggest issue is Spider-man's striking power. That is circumvented by the fact he's morals on and the fact Pete isn't getting many clean, meaningful strikes due to Gorgon's superior speed, skill, telepathy. Any hit he does get tagged by (and I don't think that hit would be particularly powerful given the reasons previously outlined), he can fight through due to raw durability and healing factor. Meanwhile, Tomi has no such problem. His sword should cut through Peter like mince-meat. I think it's more likely for Tomi to slice off Peter's head to be honest. Other than that, he does have the one-shot hax Gorgon stare, a surprising tactic Peter might not suspect and might one-shot.
lol all this talk about Prime Gorgon... where in the OP does it say you can only use Gorgon feats from Enemy of State and Secret Avengers? did i miss that?
@warlockmage: That’s definitely a fair point, but post Secret Warriors Gorgon has basically been a different character. Which is why I mentioned current Gorgon loses
I will say that in universe I think Gorgon is still supposed to be better then Wolverine who is I would say nigh equal to a morals on spider-man
@lanternbatman: That's a detailed breakdown, but I just wanted to address a few points:
Kaine and Spider-Man are both faster than Logan, there's no doubt about that. Wolverine is just fast enough to keep up with them, i.e. the gap is small.
The fact that Logan performed better by abandoning his skill doesn't necessarily mean Gorgon is more skilled. He doesn't have any notable statements or pure skill feats to suggest he's more skilled than Logan. I think it was a combination of good skill, telepathy and most importantly, the speed advantage that puts Gorgon over Logan. This point is arguable though.
You say Wolverine had a way more powerful healing factor, but compared to what? Wolverine usually tanks stabbing and cutting attacks rather easily, whereas in his fight against Gorgon they were doing a number on him. His HF was portrayed as weaker in that story. He was one-shotted by a stab to the back as well.
While Gorgon is faster than Logan, I'm not sure if the Shogun scan is the best thing to use to prove that. Logan blitzed and cut him to bits later on:
Now, I know Spidey kind of has a history of jobbing a bit against "skilled fighters" and opponents in that archetype, but I still think Spidey can take this battle for a multitude of reasons.
First, I'd like to establish that Spidey has fought Gorgon before and thus knows his powers.
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Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. #6
This means he won't be getting blindsided by Gorgon's stone stare or anything like that. You can also see that Peter had no issues dodging Gorgon's strikes. While Peter was wearing his armor in that battle, the armor doesn't increase Peter's reaction times so it shouldn't have been a factor in their battle. Now, you might think that needing to close his eyes to counter Gorgon's stone stare might negatively affect Peter's ability to fight Gorgon. However, that simply isn't the case. In fact, Spider-Man has been shown to be a better fighter when he relies more on his spider-senses than his eyesight, because it forces him to take the battle more seriously instead of jobbing as he is sometimes wont to do. A great example of this is in his battle with Daken, where he was forced to stop using his eyesight due to Daken's pheromones distorting Spider-Man's visual acuity.
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The Amazing Spider-Man #597
Note how Spider-Man says Daken is just as fast as Wolverine is. In the beginning of the fight, he keeps missing Daken and being tagged since Daken's pheromones are distorting his visual senses. However, when he closes his eyes on the fourth page, and stops being affected by Daken's pheromones, he easily and casually fodderizes someone who is just as fast as Wolverine. That's a feat I don't think Gorgon can replicate.
I'll further delve into the speed comparison since I think it's the most important aspect of this battle. Gorgon has shown to be a bullet timer, but I don't think his bullet timing feats are as good as Spider-Man's. This is because, at least as far as I'm aware, Gorgon's bullet timing feats consist of him swinging his sword really quickly in a circle to essentially form a shield in the air. That's a great feat for how fast he can swing his sword, but it isn't quite so good as a reaction feat, since he isn't actually cutting the bullets out of the air or anything - just blocking them. (EDIT: Apparently Tomi has a feat of cutting bullets out of the air, but they were just handgun bullets so I don't think that's as impressive as Spider-Man bullet-timing against sniper bullets) Meanwhile, I'd say Spider-Man being able to dodge all sorts of bullets after they were fired shows more impressive speed, since that means he can move a greater distance in a similar amount of time (moving a body requires more movement than just moving a sword, though the actual rotational velocity of Gorgon's sword is massive based on how he can form a shield in mid-air with it). Here are a selection of Spider-Man's bullet timing feats against a variety of different types of guns, from handguns to assault rifles to sniper rifles:
1: Spider-Man moves out of the way of a handgun bullet after it was fired (Spider-Man Vol. 1 #28).
2: Spider-Man dodges machine gun bullets after they were fired (The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #36).
3: Spider-Man dodges assault rifle fire after it was shot (The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #31).
4: Spider-Man moves someone out of the way of a sniper bullet after it was fired (The Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 2 #25).
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I think all of those are just as good, if not better than, any of Gorgon's showings. As for combat speed, Spider-Man has replicated if not bettered most of Gorgon's showings there too. For the feats Gorgon has of blitzing the likes of Wolverine and Elektra, Spider-Man has been able to casually outspeed Black Panther and Daredevil.
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Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #299; The Amazing Spider-Man#438
In fact, Black Panther is quicker than Logan is (Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions #3) and although I couldn't find a specific scan, I'm pretty sure the same holds true for the speed comparison between Daredevil and Elektra, based on how their fights usually go down.
As for tagging Yo-yo, Peter's been able to replicate that feat against someone just as quick (if not quicker) - Speed Demon.
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The Amazing Spider-Man #222
Although Peter can't tag Speed Demon in a straight up fight, he is able to see Speed Demon's every movement. He can also dodge Speed Demon's bullrushes and even tag Speed Demon at his maximum speed once he was off balance (so he wasn't able to dodge). If anything, I'd say this is better than Gorgon's showing against Yo-yo since Gorgon was only able to tag her once by catching her by surprise while she was in the air (so she didn't have the opportunity to dodge). In fact, Gorgon even got tagged by Quake's vibration blast right after that, which is a horrible low showing since a vibration through the air is just a sound wave and therefore travels at only Mach 1.
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Secret Warriors Vol. 1 #3
Sure, Peter only tagged Speed Demon in the air while he wasn't able to dodge and when Speed Demon wasn't looking at Peter (so he wasn't able to dodge), but he also showed the ability to dodge Speed Demon's bullrush while Speed Demon was still running at him.
That's why I believe Peter actually holds a speed advantage over Gorgon. Furthermore, even if Gorgon does manage to tag him a couple times, it won't be much of an issue for Peter. This is because Spider-Man's spider sense lets him position his body to minimize harm from attacks he can't dodge. For example, in the below incident, he moves in a way so that tracking bullets miss all his vital organs.
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The Amazing Spider-Man #572
Before anyone tries to use this as a low showing for Spider-Man or say that he can't dodge bullets, that's completely untrue. In fact, in that scan he actually does manage to dodge the bullets; however, the issue is that the bullets are outfitted with advanced tracking technology which allows the bullets to turn and maneuver themselves in the air to hit their target (which was Spider-Man's spider-emblem). And while Spider-Man's reactions are more than fast enough to dodge bullets after they are fired, he doesn't have the raw movement speed to move at Mach 3+ when his body was already in the air (he can't change his trajectory and speed once he's already in the air as he can't fly) and he wasn't expecting the bullets to turn back and hit him. Furthermore, as Osborn says himself, Spider-Man's reaction time went "way down" when he was in close proximity to Anti-Venom (due to Anti-Venom having an affect of negating Spider-Man's powers). And guess what? Anti-Venom was right next to Spider-Man during that whole fight.
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The Amazing Spider-Man #571/572
So, not only was Spider-Man's reaction time significantly reduced in that sequence, but he was also being targeted by smart tracking bullets which could literally maneuver mid air to turn and tag him even after he already dodged them. So yeah, it's far from a low showing.
Anyways, all that was just meant to say that Spider-Man has ways to minimize the damage from any attack which Gorgon lands on him - and I've already shown him being able to fodderize Daken even after having multiple stab wounds. However, on the other hand, Gorgon can't claim the same thing. Once Spider-Man lands a hit, even if he is morals on and not using his full striking power, Gorgon will be off balance and knocked into the air at the very least. This means he will be much less able to dodge and retaliate, so once Spider-Man lands a hit, it will become easier and easier for him to land further hits until Gorgon is down for the count. Or, if Spider-Man knocks him up with a single hit, it should be easy to web him a wall or something.
All of that still holds true for current Spidey, but there's a further complication regarding one of his attributes which have always held back his combat capacity - recently, Spider-Man was separated from Peter due to a freak lab accident. Essentially, the attributes everyone knows and loves about Spidey were divided into two people. Spider-Man kept all the powers, fighting skills, and scientific genius, while Peter kept the (you guessed it) morals and responsibility.
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The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 5 #3
This means that current Spidey is essentially morals off at all times anyways, which obviously makes him an even more powerful and formidable opponent. A reflection of how this change has affected his fighting prowess can be seen in his recent encounter with Taskmaster and Black Ant.
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The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 5 #2
He essentially fodderizes them both at the same time. This is a showing I absolutely don't think Gorgon could replicate, as I feel Taskmaster himself could give Gorgon a decent fight, let alone with Black Ant's help.
Overall, I feel that Spider-Man has the superior reaction and combat speed needed to take this fight, especially considering how his Spider-Sense can help him minimize any damage he takes and how I've shown he has the pain tolerance to fodderize skilled and quick enemies despite multiple stab wounds. I'm sure he will be fighting seriously and not jobbing, since he has already faced Gorgon and knows his powers and threat level - furthermore, if he closes his eyes to counter Gorgon's stone stare, he is essentially forced to take this fight seriously and fight to the best of his potential. That alone should be enough to prove Spider-Man should win, but the other factor to this fight is that current Spider-Man is essentially morals off, making him an even more effective and dangerous fighter. I don't see how Gorgon can handle all of that. And I haven't even bothered to bring up Peter's webbing, which should be more than enough to incapacitate Gorgon if and when he gets tagged with it. Overall, I think Gorgon can give Peter a good enough fight, but Peter should still take the majority more times than not. And that was only considering Gorgon's absolute best showings in his prime. If we take into account that Gorgon has become much less of a threat in recent years (ex. in Old Man Logan), Spider-Man can not only win this fight, but probably stomp.
Kaine and Spider-Man are both faster than Logan, there's no doubt about that. Wolverine is just fast enough to keep up with them, i.e. the gap is small.
I agree though..that's why I said "has been noted to be comparably fast if not faster than Kaine and Spider-man by these characters themselves and tagged them."
The fact that Logan performed better by abandoning his skill doesn't necessarily mean Gorgon is more skilled. He doesn't have any notable statements or pure skill feats to suggest he's more skilled than Logan. I think it was a combination of good skill, telepathy and most importantly, the speed advantage that puts Gorgon over Logan. This point is arguable though.
Logan did say "skills" which makes me think his overall skill-set is what puts him above. Regardless his skills should be comparable at least.
You say Wolverine had a way more powerful healing factor, but compared to what? Wolverine usually tanks stabbing and cutting attacks rather easily, whereas in his fight against Gorgon they were doing a number on him. His HF was portrayed as weaker in that story. He was one-shotted by a stab to the back as well.
That's fair.
While Gorgon is faster than Logan, I'm not sure if the Shogun scan is the best thing to use to prove that. Logan blitzed and cut him to bits later on:
I wasn't using it to prove Gorgon is faster, it was to back up Tomi being faster. It's a supporting statement, nothing more. Although Logan only seemed to be capable of that due to having an opening.
@blackspidey2099: I think you've somewhat miss-interpreted the Daken fight.
Daken is physically not as fast as Logan. He is only perceived to be that fast due to pheremones. Those scans go to show that Spider-Man cannot hit someone who is as fast as Wolverine.
When Peter relied on his spider-sense, that negated the pheremones, ergo Daken was not as fast as Logan anymore, leading to him getting stomped.
@blackspidey2099: I think you've somewhat miss-interpreted the Daken fight.
Daken is physically not as fast as Logan. He is only perceived to be that fast due to pheremones. Those scans go to show that Spider-Man cannot hit someone who is as fast as Wolverine.
When Peter relied on his spider-sense, that negated the pheremones, ergo Daken was not as fast as Logan anymore, leading to him getting stomped.
I don't think that's what happened in that fight LOL. The pheromones didn't make Daken seem faster, they just distorted Spider-Man's vision so he couldn't actually tell where Daken was. That's why Spider-Man says that Daken is "everywhere and nowhere" at the same time. Essentially, the place where Spider-Man sees Daken (and where he tries to attack) isn't where Daken actually was, and that's due to the pheromones. However, I doubt Daken is just as quick as Wolverine; that's probably hyperbole. I do think he is very close to Wolverine's speed though, based on his feats and fights with skilled opponents. For example, this fight of his against Logan himself is a pretty good showing:
@kevd4wg: I wasn't aware of that showing. I mainly just skimmed through the scans @lanternbatman posted in his post, LOL. What do you think about the fact that current Spider-Man is essentially morals off since he lost his sense of responsibility to Peter, while keeping the powers, intelligence, and skills?
Kaine and Spider-Man are both faster than Logan, there's no doubt about that. Wolverine is just fast enough to keep up with them, i.e. the gap is small.
I agree though..that's why I said "has been noted to be comparably fast if not faster than Kaine and Spider-man by these characters themselves and tagged them."
I was focusing on the "if not faster" bit really, lol
The fact that Logan performed better by abandoning his skill doesn't necessarily mean Gorgon is more skilled. He doesn't have any notable statements or pure skill feats to suggest he's more skilled than Logan. I think it was a combination of good skill, telepathy and most importantly, the speed advantage that puts Gorgon over Logan. This point is arguable though.
Logan did say "skills" which makes me think his overall skill-set is what puts him above. Regardless his skills should be comparable at least.
That makes sense.
You say Wolverine had a way more powerful healing factor, but compared to what? Wolverine usually tanks stabbing and cutting attacks rather easily, whereas in his fight against Gorgon they were doing a number on him. His HF was portrayed as weaker in that story. He was one-shotted by a stab to the back as well.
That's fair.
Glad we agree.
While Gorgon is faster than Logan, I'm not sure if the Shogun scan is the best thing to use to prove that. Logan blitzed and cut him to bits later on:
I wasn't using it to prove Gorgon is faster, it was to back up Tomi being faster. It's a supporting statement, nothing more. Although Logan only seemed to be capable of that due to having an opening.
It was more of a nit pick on my behalf, Gorgon has already proven he's faster than Logan.
@blackspidey2099: That’s true though I don’t really consider that “Spider-man” tbh since we all know it’s only like 1/2 of him. I also don’t think that’s what was meant for the BoTW.
If that is the case as I said earlier I think Morals Off Spider-Man beats him
While spidey has spider sense I think that is off set by Gorgons telepathy that he used in Wolverine vol 3 30 to stomp elektra. While webs can be helpful they have been cut by Taskmaster mid air so Gorgon can do the same thing especially since Gorgon has better speed feats then Taskmaster.
Taskmaster cutting the webs outta the air is more of a feat for him but even if you wanna go down that road Peter can simply widden the range of his webbing if he can't land it in strips. Also, Taskmaster specially prepared for Spider-Man. Gorgon doesn't have the same privilege this being a random encounter
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Web of Spider-Man #113
and Gorgon's best TP feat is reading Elektra who's TP resistance is somewhat inconsistent and even then not as good as Peter's (Wolverine's might be better but I've never seen any decent TP resistance for him so I'm assuming Elektra's better). Here's him resisting Psyco-Man's TP
@blackspidey2099: I think you've somewhat miss-interpreted the Daken fight.
Daken is physically not as fast as Logan. He is only perceived to be that fast due to pheremones. Those scans go to show that Spider-Man cannot hit someone who is as fast as Wolverine.
When Peter relied on his spider-sense, that negated the pheremones, ergo Daken was not as fast as Logan anymore, leading to him getting stomped.
I don't think that's what happened in that fight LOL. The pheromones didn't make Daken seem faster, they just distorted Spider-Man's vision so he couldn't actually tell where Daken was. That's why Spider-Man says that Daken is "everywhere and nowhere" at the same time. Essentially, the place where Spider-Man sees Daken (and where he tries to attack) isn't where Daken actually was, and that's due to the pheromones.
Exactly, the pheromones gave Peter the impression that Daken is as fast as Wolverine, even though he isn't. Once relying on his spider-sense negated the pheremones, Daken was nowhere near as fast. Don't get me wrong, Peter is faster than both anyways, I'm just saying that this fight doesn't strengthen your argument, in-fact it probably weakens it.
However, I doubt Daken is just as quick as Wolverine; that's probably hyperbole. I do think he is very close to Wolverine's speed though, based on his feats and fights with skilled opponents. For example, this fight of his against Logan himself is a pretty good showing:
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This doesn't show he is as fast as Logan. As you can clearly see in the bottom panel of the second scan, Daken's pheremones were in effect here, essentially doing to Wolverine what he did to Spider-Man.
Furthermore, Logan always held back against his son. We all know what happened once Wolverine stopped doing so.
@_kingoflatveria: Wolverine's TP resistance is stupid... guys been able to keep Chuck and Emma Frost out, but Mr. X and Gorgon have been able to read him.
@_kingoflatveria: Wolverine's TP resistance is stupid... guys been able to keep Chuck and Emma Frost out, but Mr. X and Gorgon have been able to read him.
its just utterly stupid
Maybe, he has resistance to people telepathically controlling him (in Emma's case anyways), but he has little resistance to people just straight up reading his mind. That might explain the inconsistency.
@kevd4wg: you have me mostly won over but the stare wont work because the spidey sense will warn him also pete has range and isn't stupid he knows this guy nearly killed logan he won't take him lightly
@blackspidey2099: @jay_z94:I don't think the pheromones is what made Peter think daken is as fast as wolverine. Peter commented "he moves like his dad" as Daken used that ninja vanishing move he learned from Romulous which has nothing to do with speed. Wolverine probably knows a similar technique.
Also when Daken fought wolverine during origins, he only used pheromones to hide his scent. He beat wolverine using his ninja vanishing technique he learned from Romulous. And daken actually does go onto state in the issue that him, wolverine, and deadpool are all equals when it comes to speed.
@warlockmage: strong painful memories hurt charles and emma because they have not experienced nearly the level of pain and rage that wolverine has so when they enter his mind for to long it's a strain where gorgon and mr x has more exp with the kind of pain logan has been through and they weren't digging they were reading thoughts he was expelling and when he pushes the rage to 11 and goes beserk they can't either.
but it doesn't matter because peter has iron will he will resist gorgon's tp as well.
current Gorgon is a joke... in secret Empire he practically got fodderized by a heavily weakened and damaged Hercules (couldnt even dodge a blow from him) and his appearances in Old Man Logan have been... even worse.
@warlockmage: i remember this time frame it was when i was just getting back into comics the writers just forgot about them over time i guess i used feats like this all of the time in debates middle school 01 02 03 something like that anyway i don't know what happened to his shields i think over time they just changed the way tp works.
@comic_book_fan: @_kingoflatveria: To be fair it’s much harder to keep someone from reading your mind then controlling them. Also Wolverine has been trained by Professor X to resist tp(I’ll give a source if you need I know it’s stated in the Dark Phoenix saga). Furthermore I think Gorgon can dodge his webs since Taskmaster has no feats on Gorgons level but reacted to them.
As for comic book fan I would say that while Spidey sense can warn him of danger AFAIK it can’t specifically warn him of what the danger is so he would know Gorgons dangerous but I don’t think he would specifically know to avoid Gorgon’s eyes.
I also think he won’t take Gorgon lightly but it’s a random encounter so he won’t start off with the same bloodlust/willingness to kill Gorgon has.
@blackspidey2099: @jay_z94:I don't think the pheromones is what made Peter think daken is as fast as wolverine. Peter commented "he moves like his dad" as Daken used that ninja vanishing move he learned from Romulous which has nothing to do with speed. Wolverine probably knows a similar technique.
Also when Daken fought wolverine during origins, he only used pheromones to hide his scent. He beat wolverine using his ninja vanishing technique he learned from Romulous. And daken actually does go onto state in the issue that him, wolverine, and deadpool are all equals when it comes to speed.
Agreed. I don't think the pheromones made Peter think Daken was moving quicker; they just distorted his vision so he was not seeing Daken in the right place (kind of like illusions or mirages like something Mysterio might use is what I thought of it as being). I don't really remember much of Wolverine: Origins, but that would be another great example where Daken and Wolverine are compared in terms of their speed.
@kevd4wg: I'm pretty sure Spidey knows about Gorgon's stone gaze. Like I said, they already fought before, and although Gorgon didn't use his power in that battle, Peter clearly was aware of a lot of Gorgon's history. In fact, he even cites Gorgon's fights with Wolverine and Elektra in his dialogue. Furthermore, the name Gorgon is clearly a reference to the creatures from Greek mythology who are well known as having powers to turn anyone who looks at them to stone. I'm sure Peter is aware of that. TBH, if Gorgon does try to remove his cloth mask or whatever in the middle of the fight, that would be a bad idea anyways since it offers Peter an opening.
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