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#51 Posted by Helloman (28550 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man should win.

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#52 Posted by Keenko (5186 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops

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#53 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: I know the context of the blast, but I'm not on your side with this. Just because he was mad doesn't mean he put more intensity in that blast. Cyclops has enough control to sink an entire rack of pool balls without damaging anything to just enough juice with pin point accuracy to push in an acupuncture needle trying to torture a dude for info. A "normal blast" for Cyclops is such a vague concept. We know what full power blasts can do, but he's shot such a range of gentle blasts that can just range from pushing people over, to moving heavy objects, or straight up KO'ing people. But what we know from the scan used is that he wanted to get Spider-Man out of the area, hence why he said out. Sure he was mad, he just got shot, but saying he was mad and shot Spidey with a mad blast when Scott told him to get out is as it shows, IMO. He wanted Spider-Man out, not necessarily to hurt him. With that said as well, Scott can easily up an average blast to hurt Spider-Man relatively easily without it being considered a more high powered blast or a strenuous one.

I want to co-sign this. Since Scott can control his beam's intensity to any degree between "eliminate a molecule's width off a wall" to "annihilate a Sentinel," he can obviously calibrate it to "knock out but don't kill Spider-Man."

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#54 Edited by christianrapper (6049 posts) - - Show Bio

spidey just plain out classes scott. he could beat him in under a couple of seconds. if they were bloodlusted and scott was trying to kill peter then spidey would just kill him before scott could even react.

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#55 Posted by deactivated-5c30f02eac7a3 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm no expert on Cyclops, but I would think that Peter's vastly superior physicals and senses make this a straightforward win for him.
Dodge the beams + Casual punch = Goodnight Scott.
And his webs will keep him in one place if that becomes necessary.

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#56 Edited by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

Spidey would close distance too quickly for Scott to do anything, even from dozens of feet away. https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CAe9d22D0N4HYs/giphy.gif

If Spidey wanted to keep some distance between himself and Cyclops for some reason, he could still swing him around like this (since they're in a closed room): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__CaTBYh7g

We already know that if Spidey tags Cyclops in H2H distance, Cyclops is a goner, but let's not get started on Spidey's tremendous speed either.

And yes, he can change his center of gravity in mid-air by shooting a web and pulling himself in whatever direction he wants to. The enclosed room facilitates that quite nicely.

Also, Spidey could shoot webs in Cyclops' eyes/visor. It obviously won't suppress but it will easily blind Cyclops long enough to close in and tag. It shouldn't take more than half of a second.

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#57 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6515 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie said:
@god_spawn said:

@blackspidey2099: I know the context of the blast, but I'm not on your side with this. Just because he was mad doesn't mean he put more intensity in that blast. Cyclops has enough control to sink an entire rack of pool balls without damaging anything to just enough juice with pin point accuracy to push in an acupuncture needle trying to torture a dude for info. A "normal blast" for Cyclops is such a vague concept. We know what full power blasts can do, but he's shot such a range of gentle blasts that can just range from pushing people over, to moving heavy objects, or straight up KO'ing people. But what we know from the scan used is that he wanted to get Spider-Man out of the area, hence why he said out. Sure he was mad, he just got shot, but saying he was mad and shot Spidey with a mad blast when Scott told him to get out is as it shows, IMO. He wanted Spider-Man out, not necessarily to hurt him. With that said as well, Scott can easily up an average blast to hurt Spider-Man relatively easily without it being considered a more high powered blast or a strenuous one.

I want to co-sign this. Since Scott can control his beam's intensity to any degree between "eliminate a molecule's width off a wall" to "annihilate a Sentinel," he can obviously calibrate it to "knock out but don't kill Spider-Man."

Hmm, I didn't know Scott had that level of control over his optic beams, in which case you guys are right in that saying it was Cyclop's "normal" blast is a meaningless distinction. I do think that, given the context of the story, Cyclops did want to hurt Spider-Man but underestimated his durability. I don't think Cyclops would have just knocked Spider-Man (effectively his team-mate on the mission) without being angry enough to also want to hurt him, especially given his usually level-headed mindset.

So yes, I'll agree that the feat is of limited relevance in this context, since we do know Cyclops can go higher, and now that I agreed Cyclop's "normal" blast is a meaningless distinction.

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#58 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16050 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#59 Posted by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

In any battle forum, it is important to assess not only each side's strengths, but also if those strengths can actually impact their specific opponent.

For example, I think Spider-Man would win this fight because even though Cyclops' blasts have the power to destroy entire Sentinels, he wouldn't be able to touch Spidey with them. At least not a Spidey that's paying half-attention, and definitely not a Spidey that is completely focused. Even though Cyclops' blast power is more "powerful" than any offensive force Spider-Man could create, Spider-Man would still defeat Cyclops because Spidey's power set makes Cyclops' immense power not matter.

Now if we wanted to choose who we would think is better equipped to defeat a humongous Sentinel, I might go with Cyclops because his offensive power in this situation is better suited for the opponent.

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#60 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, I have been processing how this fight would go down in my mind, and I am going with Cyclops taking the majority.

Both combatants have the potential to one-shot the other. Pete can KO Cyclops with a single punch, and Cyke can KO Pete with a single blast. So, who KOs the other first?

Spider-man has incredible speed, agility, and spider-sense.

Cyke not only has excellent aim, but a sometimes-forgotten and not super-well-explained power/ability to sense ricochets/targets beyond pure aiming. Plus, he is an acclaimed tactical expert, with reams of pre-planned moves for him and all his team-members to use against all kinds of foes and powers.

But Cylops's real advantage here is something that some other energy-blasters don't have, which is that his beams come out of his eyes, which pragmatically means that whereever he is looking, he can shoot. And, he can shoot continuously for a long time. This means that, when Spidey is leaping around all over coming towards Scott, Scott really just has to follow him with his eyes. He doesn't need to re-aim his arm where he's targeting. That makes it pretty hard to miss, especially when the opponent is closing in on him. In other words, the closer Pete gets to Cyke, which he has to do to punch him, the easier it is for Cyke to hit him. Cyke just has to follow him with his eyes, and keep shooting a continuous beam. It would be almost impossible for him to miss--especially if he goes for a wide, beam as Pete gets closer, which would only be natural. And, for those who think he might not use this tactic, remember that he is all about tactics, and using whatever works best for a situation.

He has used this "keep blasting while the opponent is only a couple feet away" multiple times in the past against foes like Wolverine while engaging Logan in close-quarter combat to great effect, shooting blasts that have either BFR'd Logan or have blasted him to an extent that he only survived due to his healing factor.

It is also somewhat similar to the way he scanned the air for Nightcrawler to re-appear from his teleport--fill the space with beams, and even the most dextrous can't avoid them.

Essentially, picture this: for Spider-man to punch Cyclops, he has to be arm's length--say less than 3 feet away. How can Cyke miss with a wide-angle beam at this distance? Meanwhile, Cyke has shown himself adept at fighting and dodging Wolverine's claws, while enraged, on multiple occasions. Wolverine isn't as fast as Spidey, but is still fast, and is way more skilled, and his claws actually have a longer reach.

Spidey's best shot is his webs, but Cyke can shoot them while in mid-air, and/or blast them directly off his glasses/goggles, and I've shown that Cyke is actually pretty accurate even with his glasses entirely off. The webs will contribute to a few wins, but not a majority.

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#61 Posted by Rusti (397 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops. PIS aside, an half powered optic blast would crack every bone in Pete's body

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#62 Edited by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Solid argument! If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to take the liberty of responding to your points. Considering all that you've said, here's why I still think Spider-Man will take a 9/10 majority.

ON THE POINT OF LASERS:

  • Spidey has plenty of experience dodging Iron Man’s repulsor beams with ease, and he can consistently dodge dozens of bullets and missiles at a time. The laser’s speed should not be a problem. The fact that the laser is only one beam as well should not be a problem.
  • Scott’s lasers don’t move with his eyes, but moreso the direction his eyes are facing. For instance, if Scott rolled his eyes without moving his head, his laser beam would not change direction. Spidey is so fast it’s hard to keep an eye on him when he’s within a dozen feet of you, so I would imagine it to be even harder to make sure your face is consistently facing him while he’s jumping, sliding, flipping all over the place. This should allow Spidey to put himself in advantageous positions for tagging Scott however he pleases (behind, above, below, etc.) not to mention his webs being able to make up for distance.

ON THE POINT OF RICOCHET: Whether the laser will ricochet or not, all scenarios will play perfectly into Spidey’s agility. As a matter of fact, Spidey––being the environmental improviser that he is––would probably utilize the ricochet better than Scott would thanks to his ridiculous agility. Tactics has no place when it comes to an advantage like this: just sheer wit, superior reflexes, and superior agility. Remember in Spider-Man 3 when Peter kicked Harry into the air so that he would collide with his glider? Spidey could do that from as close or as far away as he wants; either do it with his own two hands/feet or do it with his webs from a dozen feet away, kinda like how Aang swung around Zuko in the very first episode of Avatar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__CaTBYh7g (Aang swinging around Zuko, kinda like how Spidey could swing around someone with his webs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPn5WDCyr2o (Peter vs. Harry, skip to 2 minutes 14 seconds to see the point I'm making)

ON THE POINT OF CHANGING CENTER MASS/DIRECTION IN MID-AIR: Spidey can just shoot a web and pull in that direction to move out of the way while falling, ascending, etc. to get out of the way. They’re fighting in a cube so he can really milk that advantage.

OTHER WAYS TO NEUTRALIZE/BYPASS THE LASER:

  • Spidey could use his webs to slap Scott’s face away, causing his head to turn and misfire (which could end up in a faulty ricochet which Spider-Man could then take advantage of).
  • Incapacitate him so that he is facing straight at a wall: if he activates his laser, it will ricochet right back at his own head
  • When he shoots a laser, Spidey could shoot a web and pull his legs out from under him, causing a misfire and a potentially self-harmful ricochet. Spidey could toy with him.

OVERALL: Spidey could avoid/evade all day if he wanted to. He could probably win without touching Scott, since our BF is basically a cube. And when he closes in, it's over. Cyclops would just be overwhelmed by Spider-Man's extremely cohesive power set before his offense could save him. There are a million ways Spidey would win, and each scenario would have Spidey winning in a couple of seconds.

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#63 Posted by Noone1996 (11487 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man wins easily. The amount of times that Cyclops has failed or struggled to tag someone with street level physicals is just astounding. Spider-Man has even been among them. With that being said, someone like Peter who has top tier street level speed should be able to easily evade a couple of blasts before going in for an easy one-shot KO.

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#64 Edited by deactivated-5a5a76120d2ba (5989 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongtower7:

1. Cyclops has beams of solid concussion force, not lasers.

2. Cyclops can't hurt himself with his own optic blast directly, his body just reabsorbs them.

3. It being in essentially a cube of that size makes it easier for Scott not harder. In an open street or in a field he would only have the ground and maybe a building or other sturdy object to bound off, in a huge metal box essentially he has 6 nice solid walls to bound with.

I still thing spiderman wins, but he will have to work for it.

His main advantage is actually that Scott will probably not fire a blast hard enough to one shot Peter, and that is his really only solid chance to win because most of the time he is not going to connect more than once.

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#65 Edited by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

@misterwhisper:

1.) Didn't know about the concussion force, I stand corrected!

2.) Didn't know about the absorption, I stand corrected!

3.) The ricochet factor, in light of point #2, is now more advantageous for Scott than what I claimed in my previous post

Still, Spidey could use Scott's body as a shield from ricochet beams, if not a target.

And to your last point, I don't think that even matters. Scott can gauge his beams to whatever power level he wants, he's not hitting a Spidey that's paying even half-attention, much less a fully focused Spidey. Scott won't have to worry about one-shotting Spidey without killing him because he won't even touch him.

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#66 Posted by deactivated-5a5a76120d2ba (5989 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongtower7:

Honestly, if this was in a comic how it would go would be thay Spiderman out draws Scott and shoots a huge blob of webbing covering his whole head, thinking that will get him the win.

Then when he is standing there making a joke Scott uses the thumb stud switch he has built into his glove of he left hand to open the visor remotely and blast though the webbing, and if Spidey is close enough, tags him too.

Then spidey just dodges again and cocoons him having a wall or face down.

Scott's biggest downfall other than always dating, killing or cheating on hot female telepaths, is that everyone in the MU knows that his beams only come out of his eyes, they only travel in straight lines, unless ricocheted, and he wears a visor for a reason.

Some morons think he needs the visor to use his powers, but those nooks are usually soon found embedded in the red stain on the wall.

Peter is not the strategist or field tactician Scott it but honestly it is MUCH easier to plan a way to beat Cyclops than it is to plan a way to beat Spiderman.

Spiderman can do it all. Against just about anyone short of a cosmic, he is going to be superior to the enemy in some way. It might be speed, maybe reflexes, could be his intellect, but he is going to be better at something big, and will use it to win. Spider sense I'd a gear example, ery few counters for that.

Best case: Scott gets webbed and incapacitated.

Worst case: Scott gets hurt but not oug, and pretty much nukes the whose place.

Most likely; Scott gets webbed up, but gets off a shot and recovers, but never gets to run offense due to spider versatility.

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#67 Posted by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

@misterwhisper: Well said! I definitely agree. And LOL at the dating, killing, and cheating on hot female telepaths part

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#68 Posted by jashro44 (52060 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

OK, I have been processing how this fight would go down in my mind, and I am going with Cyclops taking the majority.

Both combatants have the potential to one-shot the other. Pete can KO Cyclops with a single punch, and Cyke can KO Pete with a single blast. So, who KOs the other first?

Spider-man has incredible speed, agility, and spider-sense.

Cyke not only has excellent aim, but a sometimes-forgotten and not super-well-explained power/ability to sense ricochets/targets beyond pure aiming. Plus, he is an acclaimed tactical expert, with reams of pre-planned moves for him and all his team-members to use against all kinds of foes and powers.

I think this is all accurate. Just in regards to tactics I would like to note Peter is pretty good at improvising.

But Cylops's real advantage here is something that some other energy-blasters don't have, which is that his beams come out of his eyes, which pragmatically means that whereever he is looking, he can shoot. And, he can shoot continuously for a long time. This means that, when Spidey is leaping around all over coming towards Scott, Scott really just has to follow him with his eyes. He doesn't need to re-aim his arm where he's targeting. That makes it pretty hard to miss, especially when the opponent is closing in on him. In other words, the closer Pete gets to Cyke, which he has to do to punch him, the easier it is for Cyke to hit him. Cyke just has to follow him with his eyes, and keep shooting a continuous beam. It would be almost impossible for him to miss--especially if he goes for a wide, beam as Pete gets closer, which would only be natural. And, for those who think he might not use this tactic, remember that he is all about tactics, and using whatever works best for a situation.

In theory this is logical but I feel like lots of street levelers have dodged his beams. Bullseye, Wolverine, daredevil, are the first few off the top of my head. Spider-man himself has also dodged them. So I feel like this doesn't really work in practice. Plus its been shown during marvel team up #4 that spider-mans spider-sense lets him stay ahead of cyclops aim:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

It also might not be a good idea for cylcops to just continuously blast and have his beam follow spider-man. If he destroys the environment to much this could result in debris flying around I imagine.

He has used this "keep blasting while the opponent is only a couple feet away" multiple times in the past against foes like Wolverine while engaging Logan in close-quarter combat to great effect, shooting blasts that have either BFR'd Logan or have blasted him to an extent that he only survived due to his healing factor.

I don't think cyclops has the skill to engage someone like spider-man in close quarters. I assume here your talking about his fight with wolverine in schism. Wolverine did dodge a few beams at point blank, so I think Peter could manage. Scott was able to get some shots in, in close quarters because of his pain tolerance, his own degree of skill, and mixing the blasts. Thing is I don't think Scott is skilled enough to engage someone like spider-man in close quarters. His only hope is to really blast spider-man because he doesn't have much defense against Peters speed and strength. Yea he's used judo on colossus but colossus isn't as nimble as spider-man is, and peter can just reverse it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

TL;DR While yes wolverine only survived due to his healing factor, he isn't as evasive as spider-man, and I think its harder for Scott to deal with Peters stats and powers than it is to deal with wolverine.

It is also somewhat similar to the way he scanned the air for Nightcrawler to re-appear from his teleport--fill the space with beams, and even the most dextrous can't avoid them.

NIghtcrawler has often been criticized (at least in the classic era) for being predictable. Even Scott's commented on that.

Essentially, picture this: for Spider-man to punch Cyclops, he has to be arm's length--say less than 3 feet away. How can Cyke miss with a wide-angle beam at this distance?

I admit the wide beam is an issue but I can't think of many instances of Scott using an area of effect attack for some reason.

Meanwhile, Cyke has shown himself adept at fighting and dodging Wolverine's claws, while enraged, on multiple occasions. Wolverine isn't as fast as Spidey, but is still fast, and is way more skilled, and his claws actually have a longer reach.

Wolverine is fast but Cyclops specializes in mostly judo IIRC. I think maybe akido as well but I can't remember, I'm sure you or someone else can correct me. I think spider-mans power set is more suited for dealing with cyclops in melee than wolverines. Plus while wolverine can keep up with spider-man, I still think there is a noticeable gap between them in terms of speed.

Spidey's best shot is his webs, but Cyke can shoot them while in mid-air, and/or blast them directly off his glasses/goggles, and I've shown that Cyke is actually pretty accurate even with his glasses entirely off. The webs will contribute to a few wins, but not a majority.

Well the thing is wouldn't be a bit of a distraction if Cyclops blasted his webs? I think fantastic four 362 is a good showing of Peters improvisational abilities.

https://imgur.com/a/jeKle

You can see he uses a lot of distractions in this fight, like throwing garbage bags, web bolas, pretends human torch hits him to trap him, and he also uses his webbing as camouflage. Now he can't do all of this in this setting but he can use his webs to distract cyclops. If cyclops has to keep blasting the webbing out of the air, it could distract him and make it harder for cyclops to keep track of spider-man which is already difficult for him.

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#69 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongtower7: I appreciate your argument. Mr Whisper already dealt with some aspects of it. In terms of some others:

Spidey has plenty of experience dodging Iron Man’s repulsor beams with ease, and he can consistently dodge dozens of bullets and missiles at a time. The laser’s speed should not be a problem. The fact that the laser is only one beam as well should not be a problem.

Spidey does dodge energy beams all the time, for sure. However, there were a variety of specific reasons Scott's make it more difficult, especially including the ability to continuously shoot them, and wide beams.

Scott’s lasers don’t move with his eyes, but moreso the direction his eyes are facing. For instance, if Scott rolled his eyes without moving his head, his laser beam would not change direction. Spidey is so fast it’s hard to keep an eye on him when he’s within a dozen feet of you, so I would imagine it to be even harder to make sure your face is consistently facing him while he’s jumping, sliding, flipping all over the place. This should allow Spidey to put himself in advantageous positions for tagging Scott however he pleases (behind, above, below, etc.) not to mention his webs being able to make up for distance.

I believe--although I admit I do not have direct evidence for this, it's more of an inference--that they come out of his pupils, and thus would move with his eye position. Out of the random Cyclops scans I've made that I have with me right now, this might be seen as evidence in that direction; I'd argue that the beam is shooting at an angle slightly below that of the angle his head is facing, and thus must be directly by slightly-lowered eyes. But, the exact angle we see here is debatable, so I won't push it. However, I agree that at least with his visor on, he shoots them straight ahead, as the visor guides the blast direction front. So, since he presumably has his visor here, we can call the point moot.

In any case, I don't really think it would be hard for Scott to keep his face towards Pete, even if he's dodging and flipping a lot, particularly when we take a wide beam into account.

ON THE POINT OF RICOCHET: Whether the laser will ricochet or not, all scenarios will play perfectly into Spidey’s agility. As a matter of fact, Spidey––being the environmental improviser that he is––would probably utilize the ricochet better than Scott would thanks to his ridiculous agility. Tactics has no place when it comes to an advantage like this: just sheer wit, superior reflexes, and superior agility. Remember in Spider-Man 3 when Peter kicked Harry into the air so that he would collide with his glider? Spidey could do that from as close or as far away as he wants; either do it with his own two hands/feet or do it with his webs from a dozen feet away, kinda like how Aang swung around Zuko in the very first episode of Avatar.

If he uses the web to swing him around, that would work, but again Scott might blast it before the web hits him.

I agree with Mr Whisper that the enclosed space actually makes ricochets in Scott's favor.

But more importantly, I think tactics are a big factor when you're dealing with someone like Cyclops. He literally has numbered plans for every situation. Scott is always tactically thinking; he'll put himself in a position to his advantage, and Pete's disadvantage.

OVERALL: Spidey could avoid/evade all day if he wanted to. He could probably win without touching Scott, since our BF is basically a cube. And when he closes in, it's over. Cyclops would just be overwhelmed by Spider-Man's extremely cohesive power set before his offense could save him. There are a million ways Spidey would win, and each scenario would have Spidey winning in a couple of seconds.

I disagree. Spidey is a fantastic dodger, but the wide beams and multiple ricochets would get through eventually. And while it might only take a second for Spidey to KO Scott, the reverse is also true. Overall the chance of Spidey managing to physically get close enough to punch Cyclops without getting hit in the process seem unlikely to happen often, and getting webs past him is about equally unlikely given Scott's ability to blast various thrown/shot objects at him in the past. Pete will win some, but I don't think a majority.

@jashro44

Just in regards to tactics I would like to note Peter is pretty good at improvising.

Agreed, but while Pete does have a good track record of working his way through bad situations by thinking on his feet, and he's obviously intellectually the superior, Cyclops's tactical command is infamous.

In theory this is logical but I feel like lots of street levelers have dodged his beams. Bullseye, Wolverine, daredevil, are the first few off the top of my head. Spider-man himself has also dodged them. So I feel like this doesn't really work in practice. Plus its been shown during marvel team up #4 that spider-mans spider-sense lets him stay ahead of cyclops aim:

Pete has certainly dodged some blasts in the past. There's also the example of Secret Wars I where he beat the whole X-men. And others have dodged too, although as I pointed out on the first page, Cyke has also been shown to hit people like Spider-man, Kraven, Wolverine, and Sabretooth as well. I believe the reason Cyclops is shown missing in practice against other characters is about the same as why Bullseye hasn't just killed everyone by now, that it would be too boring. We have plenty of example of Cyclops having spectacular aim, and the ability to use wide beams, but if he just did that all the time, fights would be over immediately. So, they have him miss. That's the only way I can understand having proof of his accuracy in many examples--accuracy that should clearly be enough to hit people--but also not hit them when doing so would end the story short.

Also, while Peter is a master dodger, it's not like he never gets hit by anything. All kinds of people have hit him, and if anyone has a good chance at it, it's Scott.

It also might not be a good idea for cylcops to just continuously blast and have his beam follow spider-man. If he destroys the environment to much this could result in debris flying around I imagine.

I admit the wide beam is an issue but I can't think of many instances of Scott using an area of effect attack for some reason.

I think destruction of the environment, and the potential for hurting civilians, is the main reason why he doesn't use the wide beam too often, or shoot out continuous beams. But in this case, where they're enclosed in a simple cube, that's not much of an issue. But when he needs to, he does use it, as in the examples I showed earlier, which I took from only looking through a handful of issues for examples in another debate some time ago. I don't think it would be hard to find more examples.

And again, this is a situation where the characters are supposed to be fighting their best. If Cyke is smart, and we know he's a master tactician, then that's the tactic he would use here.

NIghtcrawler has often been criticized (at least in the classic era) for being predictable. Even Scott's commented on that.

Yes, I agree, and that shows his use of other's tactics against them, but my original point was that the way he beat him was to continuously scythe the beam across the ceiling, as an example of continuous use of the beam.

I don't think cyclops has the skill to engage someone like spider-man in close quarters. I assume here your talking about his fight with wolverine in schism. Wolverine did dodge a few beams at point blank, so I think Peter could manage. Scott was able to get some shots in, in close quarters because of his pain tolerance, his own degree of skill, and mixing the blasts. Thing is I don't think Scott is skilled enough to engage someone like spider-man in close quarters. His only hope is to really blast spider-man because he doesn't have much defense against Peters speed and strength. Yea he's used judo on colossus but colossus isn't as nimble as spider-man is, and peter can just reverse it.

TL;DR While yes wolverine only survived due to his healing factor, he isn't as evasive as spider-man, and I think its harder for Scott to deal with Peters stats and powers than it is to deal with wolverine.

Yeah, I don't think Cyke could last long, and definitely not win in a physical fight with Pete. But my point is, he can last long enough to blast him from arms length, when Pete has almost no chance to dodge a wide beam.

In terms of Wolverine fights, there's Schism, (with multiple point blank shots that hit that would have KOd Pete, and also multiple dodges of Wolverine's blows, plus showing pain tolerance while Logan's claws go through his hands; Logan did dodge or semi-dodge a couple beams as well, I agree) and these two other examples: one, (dodges Wolverine's strikes twice, throws him twice, shoots him via ricochet, granted Wolverine is acting somewhat out of character), two (two examples of hitting Wolverine from essentially point blank range they way I'm suggesting he'd do to Pete, again granted some context from mind control).

Agreed that Wolverine and Spider-man bring different capabilities to the fight, but I think they just about balance out. Logan is less agile and fast, and no spider sense, but he has far great skill and the healing factor to allow him to keep going past the first couple shots.

Well the thing is wouldn't be a bit of a distraction if Cyclops blasted his webs? I think fantastic four 362 is a good showing of Peters improvisational abilities.

https://imgur.com/a/jeKle

You can see he uses a lot of distractions in this fight, like throwing garbage bags, web bolas, pretends human torch hits him to trap him, and he also uses his webbing as camouflage. Now he can't do all of this in this setting but he can use his webs to distract cyclops. If cyclops has to keep blasting the webbing out of the air, it could distract him and make it harder for cyclops to keep track of spider-man which is already difficult for him.

Distractions can help, for sure. I think that would be part of his winning tactics in the wins that Pete did get.

But generally speaking, he can take care of it like he does this debris, or this debris. I know there's a scan of him shooting down multiple missiles as well, I can't seem to find it, but they'd be much harder than web blobs.

I by no means see this as an easy battle, but I think it's hard to see Peter getting close. A continuously-fired wide beam ought to hit sooner rather than later, even with Pete's dodging, and make it close to impossible for Peter to close in close enough to physically engage.

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#70 Posted by jashro44 (52060 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

Pete has certainly dodged some blasts in the past. There's also the example of Secret Wars I where he beat the whole X-men. And others have dodged too, although as I pointed out on the first page, Cyke has also been shown to hit people like Spider-man, Kraven, Wolverine, and Sabretooth as well.

Kraven isn't as fast and agile as spider-man, he isn't slow, but he has few feats when it comes to evasion (also in your scans Kraven was engaging Beast, and that showing Kraven and blob were fighting the X-men and spider-man). So Kraven was distracted. He fights spider-man with his greater skill and because he knows how Peter fights (he has studied him). Sabretooth is fast but he also fights like an animal, and he has also dodged cyclops optic blasts and closed the gap:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

With regards to wolverine I think we will discuss that a bit below. For now I will mention wolverine tends to tank attacks a lot more than spider-man. As for spider-man the only time I remember him tagging spider-man once on the previous page. Cyclops has a bad record when it comes to spider-man. That one scan of him tagging Peter on the previous page also doesn't look like a one on one fight (I'm just looking at the scans, it looks like Hope was shooting at spider-man which made him jump, spider-man would have less maneuverability in the air).

I believe the reason Cyclops is shown missing in practice against other characters is about the same as why Bullseye hasn't just killed everyone by now, that it would be too boring. We have plenty of example of Cyclops having spectacular aim, and the ability to use wide beams, but if he just did that all the time, fights would be over immediately. So, they have him miss. That's the only way I can understand having proof of his accuracy in many examples--accuracy that should clearly be enough to hit people--but also not hit them when doing so would end the story short.

I don't think we can compare bullseye and cyclops. Cyclops can pull the power of his optic blast, bullseye can't make a ninja star non lethal so bullseye has to miss. Cyclops has good aim but maybe he lacks the ability to anticipate targets which is his issue.

Also, while Peter is a master dodger, it's not like he never gets hit by anything. All kinds of people have hit him, and if anyone has a good chance at it, it's Scott.

This is true. With that said cyclops has a terrible track record against spider-man. And usually when Peter fights cyclops, cyclops has backing from the X-men.

I think destruction of the environment, and the potential for hurting civilians, is the main reason why he doesn't use the wide beam too often, or shoot out continuous beams. But in this case, where they're enclosed in a simple cube, that's not much of an issue. But when he needs to, he does use it, as in the examples I showed earlier, which I took from only looking through a handful of issues for examples in another debate some time ago. I don't think it would be hard to find more examples.

Looking at your post the only example of cyclops using a wide blast is from secret wars.

And again, this is a situation where the characters are supposed to be fighting their best. If Cyke is smart, and we know he's a master tactician, then that's the tactic he would use here.

Well I remember talking to @god_spawn about this a few years ago. I remember he brought up that the wider cyclops beams are, the less power they have. i know he knocked out the wrecking crew during secret wars with a wide blast but there kind of jobbers (plus dock ock survived).

I would like to see some more examples. There is world war hulk I suppose. To be honest this is something I've always been confused about with cyclops. If his wide blasts are weaker than his thin blasts why do street levelers still challenge him? If I had to guess I would think its because there is a misconception that the wider cyclops beams are the more powerful they are. Like when cyclops did shoot at world war hulk he said he was going "max power" even though the blast was pretty wide.

I don't read enough X-men to know for sure though. I'm just guessing.

Yes, I agree, and that shows his use of other's tactics against them, but my original point was that the way he beat him was to continuously scythe the beam across the ceiling, as an example of continuous use of the beam.

Alright.

Yeah, I don't think Cyke could last long, and definitely not win in a physical fight with Pete. But my point is, he can last long enough to blast him from arms length, when Pete has almost no chance to dodge a wide beam.

I don't think he can last long enough though. Spider-man is completely different enemy than wolverine. With wolverine, cyclops was able to physically hold him back and they were sort of wrestling a bit.

In terms of Wolverine fights, there's Schism, (with multiple point blank shots that hit that would have KOd Pete, and also multiple dodges of Wolverine's blows, plus showing pain tolerance while Logan's claws go through his hands; Logan did dodge or semi-dodge a couple beams as well, I agree)

I think this is an accurate summation. However the thing with wolverine and cyclops is that cyclops can cut loose on wolverine. He has to hold back against spider-man.

and these two other examples: one, (dodges Wolverine's strikes twice, throws him twice, shoots him via ricochet, granted Wolverine is acting somewhat out of character), two (two examples of hitting Wolverine from essentially point blank range they way I'm suggesting he'd do to Pete, again granted some context from mind control).

The first fight wolverine wasn't at his best, and cyclops notes it. Plus that fight is pretty old, I think it predates the time where they established he was a martial artist. Second fight, in the first blast it looks like sauron either threw wolverine, or he jumped so there is no way wolverine could have avoided it. It also looks like he thought cyclops was a slime monster so he probably wasn't expecting it to shoot lasers. Than wolverine hesitates which give Scott the opening to blast wolverine.

Agreed that Wolverine and Spider-man bring different capabilities to the fight, but I think they just about balance out. Logan is less agile and fast, and no spider sense, but he has far great skill and the healing factor to allow him to keep going past the first couple shots.

Wolverines greater skill allows him to keep up in hand to hand with spider-man but it isn't a substitute when it comes to spider-speed or agility. Peter is just way better at dodging. In regards to hand to hand, as I said in Schism cyclops and wolverine were wrestling. Cyclops can't do that with someone as strong as spider-man.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As for wolverines healing factor, the point you were bringing up is wolverine needed his healing factor. The fight wasn't conclusive in schism. The judo throw he used on wolverine in the fight where Logan was in a funk wouldn't work on spider-man, and would just get reversed the way it was with black cat.

Distractions can help, for sure. I think that would be part of his winning tactics in the wins that Pete did get.

But generally speaking, he can take care of it like he does this debris, or this debris. I know there's a scan of him shooting down multiple missiles as well, I can't seem to find it, but they'd be much harder than web blobs.

Well there just distractions. I have no doubt Peter can shoot the debris, but if he takes his eyes off Peter for a second it gives Peter the opportunity to close the gap. Even among other heroes Peter is seen as a blur (even when not going all out). Paladin for example has dodged bullets from deadpool yet this is how he sees spider-man:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I by no means see this as an easy battle, but I think it's hard to see Peter getting close. A continuously-fired wide beam ought to hit sooner rather than later, even with Pete's dodging, and make it close to impossible for Peter to close in close enough to physically engage.

Well I guess in theory it this is true. I can't say Peter can dodge a blast that is like 20 meters wide or something like that. But that isn't how cyclops fights for some reason. This is what always annoys me about cyclops threads. I see he has potential to make his blasts basically unavoidable but he doesn't seem to do that. I don't know if he just needs to make the beam smaller to do that to knock some people out or if its plot. If its plot than it happens pretty frequently I feel. I do remember there was a fight in the 90's where it seemed (to me at least) cyclops had to "focus his optic blast so tightly it impacted with the force of a bullet".

No Caption Provided

I mean I guess Peter can't take as much punishment from sabretooth, he is pretty durable.

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#71 Posted by God_Spawn (42998 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I think it's more than likely that Cyclops fires slimmer beams, 1) for the easier potency of the blast and control since he only has to worry about a closer area of effect. And 2) if he goes too wide, then he doesn't have the "control" so to speak or has to worry about his blasts covering more ground and potentially ricocheting or going all over the place. My thing with the WWH blast is his goal was to KO and beat the Hulk. Cyke has gone on record stating that a slim and focused enough beam would kill Colossus. That is a lot of force on a small area of hitting, and blasts like that have pierced the Blob. But he is more than capable firing of wide and powerful blasts or focusing it enough to split mountains in two, to focusing it even more that it could kill a character as durable as Colossus while Colossus can and has tanked a standard beam from him. I'll post some scans later if Owie doesn't of wider beams, but I know I have some on my respect thread and I'm too lazy to dig through my scans atm lol.

And just to concise things up, I think he fires slimmer beams due to a few things. I think it comes down to comfortability. He fires too slim of a beam and while he has grown to make those gentle if needed, a powered up enough slim beam can kill someone like Colossus, but those types of beams would easier to dodge, making them not practical in most cases. He goes too wide and he will lose some of that control, while he has used a wide beam to push a wide area of people down, he has also used them to blow the top off a mountain back in X-Factor and destroy immediate areas. It gives him a bigger area of cover, but he also has to put more power into it in comparison to a smaller beam. So I think his standard beams give him enough area that he doesn't have to focus too much on the precision aspect and make use of his rebounds if necessary, which he can with super focused beams and has, while also not having to worry about what a wide blast does if it isn't necessary in the situation. I'm tired, it's been a long day, so I hope I'm not just rambling at this point but this is my take on it, at least until I can put together a better response.

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#72 Posted by jashro44 (52060 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Its not a problem. So you believe the slimmer blasts are easier to control?

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#73 Edited by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Hello again! Sorry if this isn’t answering the question of the post above me.

ON THE POINT OF DODGING: The reason why I mentioned Spidey easily and regularly dodging energy beams was to imply that Scott’s optic blasts would not pose any different of a challenge from the beams that Spidey is accustomed to dodging against his own rogues gallery (and sometimes his fellow heroes). A large portion of my arguments supporting a Spider-Man majority come from this one point, as well the implications that come from this point. Nonetheless, this one point alone needs a lot of unpacking, which I have done below, and in ways that I hope are objective and falsifiable!

  • Iron Man, for instance, can continuously shoot his beams just like how Scott can continuously shoot his beam, and Spidey has little trouble dodging Iron Man’s standard repulsor blasts. Spidey also has a very solid track record with the likes of Shocker, Electro, and Beetle, whose offense largely relies on projectile-like attacks like Cyclops' beam blasts. Thus, that is why I am equating Cyclops’ beam with a variety of other energy beams with comparable speed in this scenario (i.e. repulsor beams, electricity). Cyclops’ beam may be different in nature from these other guys' (i.e. interdimensional portal, purely kinetic force, no radiation, etc.), but not so much in terms of what it would need to do to hurt Spidey: it would need to hit him.

  • Oh yeah, when Cyclops’ beams start ricocheting, when do they stop? Just wondering.

  • Sure, the ricochet factor of Scott’s beam would make it more difficult to dodge than any good old beam (as well as close distance on Scott), but not because it has anything to do with Scott’s tactics. Scott’s tactical placement/augmented spatial awareness that he uses to make his ricochets more accurate would be countered by Spider-Man’s reflexes, agility, and keen detection to surroundings (i.e. surfaces, sense of gravity, etc.) which is also why his agility is extremely precise and efficient. He doesn’t need to think about how his body needs to jump, twist, land, etc. because it can darn near do it without his own consent. He doesn’t need to think: his arms, legs, torso, neck, etc. just do it. It’s a beautiful thing. For as physically strenuous as Spidey’s agility appears to us mere mortals (which is why it looks so amazing), people tend to forget that he has a limitless supply of that. Spider-Man isagility. In the same way Cap says, “I can do this all day,” Spidey could “do this all day” with regards to jumping around lol. This is why he dodges anything and everything: lasers, missiles, bullets, electricity, sonic waves, etc. He just notices where the projectile is going to be and his body does the rest; it requires little effort and is very efficient, which is why he has had so much success evading anything and everything.

  • Thus, any tactics Scott could utilize to fire pinpoint-accurate blasts would still be outclassed by Spider-Man’s sheer physicals, especially in an environment that would allow Spider-Man to change directions easily (increasing the impact of his agility advantage). This even includes small rooms because he can web pull himself in any direction, allowing him to change direction much quicker than, say, if he were trying to dodge a missile while falling hundreds of feet in the air. Yes, prep/tactics always has the potential to checkmate opponents (i.e. Batman vs. Superman), and Spider-Man could always get hit by Scott’s beam if he drops focus for even a split second, but that’s not to say that prep/tactics can’t be overcome by sheer physicality as well (i.e. Batman vs. Superman lol). In this case, I believe Spidey’s physicals outmatch and overwhelm anything Cyclops can come up with, and Peter doesn’t even need that high IQ of his to win. I will admit, though, all of Spidey’ wins in this matchup would have to be as a result of getting the first strike.

YES, HE DOES GET HIT SOMETIMES: Of course, Spidey does get tagged regularly by the whole spectrum of attacks (from mere punches to explosions), but that’s usually if he is being barraged, if he is not expecting incoming danger from the people in his present environment, if the attack is omnidirectional, if he is already in a weakened state (too weak to evade/move) or if he is in the middle of H2H or mid-range combat with someone of comparable speed and/or durability (i.e. Wolverine – durability & speed, Captain America – skill & agility, Green Goblin – agile flight, speed, and projectile weaponry). But even in those situations, he manages to get out of the way at least half the time. In this situation, there is just one form of attack he has to worry about (laser beam) and he is definitely expecting it. He is fully focused, his “health bar” is completely full. He is not in a weakened state. He doesn’t have to worry about anything else but the beams, and the dimensions of the cube already put Cyclops in Spider-Man’s danger zone. If you’re within the reach of Spider-Man’s webs or limbs, you’re in his danger zone. Spidey’s a savage in mid-range and close combat, and this cube is only going to help Spidey get the first strike faster. Spidey is more than capable of moving faster than Cyclops could stay facing towards him, which is all it would take to get position on Scott and tag him quickly.

ON THE POINT OF CYCLOPS 90O BLAST: Even Cyclops’ widest blast is still quite thin (correct me if I’m wrong). Spidey could go under or over that blast and still close distance even though it’s omni-latitudinal. If Spidey has room to move, he will use it.

TL;DR: The only way Cyclops wins is with full-blown prep or shooting a million beams that bounce all over the place, but even then, that implies that Spidey didn’t already blitz him after dodging the first beam blast.

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#74 Posted by Royal_Warrior (5060 posts) - - Show Bio

Should've made the Spider-Man miles to make this more even

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#75 Posted by God_Spawn (42998 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I mean in a sense. a standard blast gives him decent width while giving him solid power. Too focused runs the risk of being easier to dodge. He goes too wide and he runs the risk of hitting things he might not want to but also makes his beams weaker unless he puts a bit more juice in it.

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#76 Posted by laflux (24723 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Posted by laflux (24723 posts) - - Show Bio

On a serious note I can think of at least three ocassions where Cyclops has had difficulty tagging Peter even when has had the benefit of other X-Men team mates to run interference. Combined with his fight against Superior Spider-Man, granted he had less control over his beams, but then again Superior Spider-Man is less agile and evasive than Peter due to lack of experience and training, just leads me to believe that more often than not Peter will knock him out.

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#78 Posted by God_Spawn (42998 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I'll be of the notion that I think Parker wins. Vastly faster and while Cyclops I think is an underrated marksman and does have some really good accuracy and speed feats, I think his normal fighting style plays against him. Spider sense and being vastly above him physically gives him the edge here.

I do actually have my issues with the A+X fight though.

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#79 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16050 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#80 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Scott with no morals one shots. with morals, Peter.

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#82 Edited by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongtower7:I think that is a very well-argued post on the side of Spider-man. To be honest, I think we just at the point of a judgement call. I agree with much of what you say, but in the end, taking all of that into account, I come down on the side that Cyclops's targeting is enough to win a majority in these conditions.

This scenario didn't give us a starting distance, but it says the room is 50 meters in length. I'll assume that means they start at opposite ends. If so, that is a LOT of time for Cyke to shoot and for Pete to close. If they started way closer, let's say 20' apart, I could buy that Pete's speed would be enough to overcome the other factors and give him the win.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to two statements that I think all would agree with:

1. Spider-man can dodge some of Cyclops's blasts.

2. Cyclops can hit Spider-man with some of his blasts.

I just think, all things considered, that 2 is likely to happen at least once before Spider-man closes. And if it does, then Cyke wins, because he can definitely calibrate his blast to knock him out. Peter and Scott are two of my favorite characters; I just feel that Cyclops's accuracy is enough to hit at least once, given all I know of his accuracy and Pete's dodging. And, again, that he doesn't just have to dodge--he has to dodge while getting close enough to punch him.

To answer your question about his ricochets, I don't think there's any clear answer. They tend to only be shown ricocheting if he does it on purpose, or if he hits an opponent with a specially-prepared reflective surface. And they usually stop when he hits the thing he wants. So it's a bit of comic book physics.

@jashro44:I agree in general with your points about Kraven and Sabretooth. They're not perfect stand-ins for Spider-man, they're just random examples I've found of him hitting agile people.

I do think Bullseye and Cyclops are good equivalents for the point I was making about why they always miss though. Yes, Bullseye is automatically deadly. But Cyke can also alter the power of his shot to make any hit on a non-superhumanly durable person pretty much an auto-KO. So they have to make him miss, or fights would be over quickly.

I did a quick survey of a bunch of random Cyclops comics from throughout his history on this point--very early X-men, mid-era X-men, X-Factor, X-men right before AvX when his power changed. It's actually very interesting to see how different writers use his powers. He does shoot and miss very often--and against all kinds of people, agile and not, even pretty close. But for instance, in the early X-men they fought Quicksilver a lot, and while Cyclops almost always missed him, he kept just missing. I'd argue that if he just missed Quicksilver, he'd have a pretty good chance against Pete, although the spider-sense is a different factor. But the thing is, again, they had to make him miss, because across his history he keeps fighting all kinds of characters that, if he hit them, he'd just wipe them out with no effort. Hit Scarlet Witch, Toad, Quicksilver, Mastermind, for instance? They're toast. So he misses. In later-era X-men, I found that you could go for several issues in a row without him even shooting his beam, even when he was leading a team in a fight. They just wouldn't show him on panel during the battle--again, because if he did, it would make the fight no fight. Consistently, the people he hits are people with exceptional durability or force fields, because they can take it.

It is possible that he can't anticipate people's actions, but I don't find this likely, given his accuracy with other kinds of moving targets. And this is the main problem--there are plenty of examples of him missing people, but also plenty of examples of him hitting targets that would be way more difficult to hit than the people he has missed. So we have to reconcile these two kinds of evidence. I come down on the side that he is actually accurate, and that the misses are due to plot. It's possible to come down on the other side. But I think, if you take the other side, then why would they show so many feats that show him being accurate? What other point would there be other than to prove that he is accurate? I can't see a reason for that--while I can see a reason for them to make him miss during battles, which is because it would end the story too quickly.

(Either way, it is annoying. It's like reconciling how Thor, or any other "planet buster," can simultaneously be shown busting planets on a few occasions, but then spending most of his time fighting people with durability that is decidedly lower than that of a planet.)

The other previous example I gave of a wide beam, other than the Secret Wars one, is the one with the debris. I've included some more in a scan dump below.

In terms of the relationship between his beam's width and its power, the official explanation is that the thinner they are, the more powerful they are, and the wider they are, the weaker they are. I have tended to think this is how it works. However, on reflection over time, and this was really reinforced when I just went back through the Cyclops comics, I just don't think the writers follow this, and they really haven't throughout his history. For instance, in this example, he uses a very thin beam in a super-delicate operation. Or here he cuts a cake, or here he knocks out a guard. Or in examples I showed on the last page, he hits a marble and disintegrates a molecule's width off a wall with very thin beams. All of these ought to be his most powerful beams, but they're weak. There are also examples where he said he was going all-out, but the beam was average width, not super-thin or super-wide (I didn't bother making scans of these). Also, there's his famous "get off my lawn" scene when he toasted a Sentinel was with a wide beam, which clearly was not weak. Or when he destroyed Mr. Sinister with a wide beam. Here's a couple others with varying levels of power: one, two. So there's lots of variation of power levels, regardless of width. You can also look at the other examples I'm posting below, just for more examples of what his beam can do in general. So I think that in practice, if not in theory, they write it so he can just control the power of his beam, no matter the width.

I don't think he can last long enough though. Spider-man is completely different enemy than wolverine. With wolverine, cyclops was able to physically hold him back and they were sort of wrestling a bit.

I think this is an accurate summation. However the thing with wolverine and cyclops is that cyclops can cut loose on wolverine. He has to hold back against spider-man.

The first fight wolverine wasn't at his best, and cyclops notes it. Plus that fight is pretty old, I think it predates the time where they established he was a martial artist. Second fight, in the first blast it looks like sauron either threw wolverine, or he jumped so there is no way wolverine could have avoided it. It also looks like he thought cyclops was a slime monster so he probably wasn't expecting it to shoot lasers. Than wolverine hesitates which give Scott the opening to blast wolverine.

Wolverines greater skill allows him to keep up in hand to hand with spider-man but it isn't a substitute when it comes to spider-speed or agility. Peter is just way better at dodging. In regards to hand to hand, as I said in Schism cyclops and wolverine were wrestling. Cyclops can't do that with someone as strong as spider-man.

As for wolverines healing factor, the point you were bringing up is wolverine needed his healing factor. The fight wasn't conclusive in schism. The judo throw he used on wolverine in the fight where Logan was in a funk wouldn't work on spider-man, and would just get reversed the way it was with black cat.

It's true that Spider-man's strength would provide a different kind of fight. (Although if Wolverine is as strong as people like to say he is, his strength should have been a factor there too.) But Spider-man has also proved susceptible to difficulties with skilled opponents, and really a judo/aikido fighter would be just the kind that could use Spider-man's strength against him, that one example with Black Cat notwithstanding. If he's still going all Way of the Spider, I suppose that might be different. But all Scott has to do is survive long enough to blast him once.

We can argue the specific points of the fights between Cyclops and Wolverine (I'd say in the Sauron example, for instance, that Wolverine is just jumping at him just like Pete would do, and that it shows the Cyclops-as-slime-monster-illusion shooting blasts, so Wolverine should expect him to keep shooting and not be surprised by the blast, especially since he already blasted him once), but the point is that overall Cyclops has a surprisingly good track record of keeping up with Wolverine in hand to hand, across eras. Again, this isn't a perfect match to Spider-man, but it shows some degree of ability to stave off instant defeat.

The one big problem with the Schism fight is that Cyclops's beams don't act as concussive force like they ought to. He is continually blasting his hands at one point, for instance, which ought to send Logan's arm flying back, but they just keep grappling. Or any of the times he hits him in the body, he ought to get blasted far away, just like in the Sauron example. This is part of why I think Cyke would win--any time he hits Pete, he hits him to the other end of the room again, and Pete has to close that entire distance again--if he's not knocked out right away.

Well I guess in theory it this is true. I can't say Peter can dodge a blast that is like 20 meters wide or something like that. But that isn't how cyclops fights for some reason. This is what always annoys me about cyclops threads. I see he has potential to make his blasts basically unavoidable but he doesn't seem to do that. I don't know if he just needs to make the beam smaller to do that to knock some people out or if its plot. If its plot than it happens pretty frequently I feel. I do remember there was a fight in the 90's where it seemed (to me at least) cyclops had to "focus his optic blast so tightly it impacted with the force of a bullet".

And again, I totally understand what you're saying. He often doesn't fight this way. But as I said above, I think his other accuracy feats should be taken as the more "real" feats, and if we take him as the master tactician he is, then this is what I think he'd do.

Anyway, here are a bunch more random feats with his beam, just for education's sake for everyone:

AIMING (see also under beam width and beam power)

Cyclops aims his beam by millimeters without even being able to see where he’s shooting, as Prof. X guides him by vocal instructions.

Cyclops shoots Spider-man’s webbing, making him fly out a window.

Cyclops shoots Black Panther.

Cyclops shoots one of Boom-Boom’s teeny energy balls while it’s way up in the air.

After Ice Man makes some cracks in Hodge’s suit that are too small for Hodge to see, Cyclops aims at them with a thin beam (thus directly targeting the cracks, not just hoping they seep through in a wide beam) and blasts his beam inside them, causing them to ricochet inside.

Knowing that the Smiley Face soldiers' armor will reflect his beam, Cyclops instead aims at the teeny seams in the armor while they're flying around some distance away, piercing it—on two occasions: one, two.

Shoots Storm while she is flying, and is a distance away. Note that in this scene she hesitates while blasting at him, but has no motivation to hesitate while dodging.

BEAM WIDTH (THIN & WIDE) (see also under aiming and beam power)

Wide beams, against a guard, a group of guys, and a group of missiles.

Uses a wide-beam to puff up some poppy dust.

Cyclops shoots beam in “almost microscopic width” with “absolute precision” to turn off a button.

CONTROLLING BEAM POWER

Cyclops controls his beam’s force so it stops the boulder without destroying it, then with a second beam sends it in the opposite direction.

Cyclops controls his beam’s force so it slows a bus rolling down a hill.

Cyclops destroys a huge airliner.

Cyclops blows a hole in Apocalypse’s Ship, which was created by the Celestials and is presumably pretty durable, twice: one, two.

Cyclops perfectly targets a guard’s forehead with a weak beam, knocking him out.

Cyclops controls his beam’s intensity and accuracy so as to cut a cake, not destroy it.

CONTINUOUS BEAM USAGE

Cyclops’s visor is taken off, and he shoots a continuous beam for a while at Colossus and then Angel.

Young Cyclops shoots a continuous beam to fly while in space.

TACTICS/AGILITY

Cyclops does a fancy flying-somersault that turns into a huge flip, then blasts a beast (whose skin reflects his beams) in the mouth. Great agility feat, plus tactics.

Cyclops defeats several X-men who believe he is Phoenix (they are not mind controlled, they see an illusion around him). He successfully hides from Wolverine and snipes him, knocking him out, then tricks Colossus into quicksand, then dodges Storm’s lightning bolt (albeit partly because she hesitated), then blasts her while she is flying some distance away, then blasts some poppies and uses their dust to knock out Rogue. A good example of his smart, tactical fighting style.

BEAM FROM PUPILS?

In this image, it appears that the beams come from his pupils, given the thin beam, thus evidence that they would shoot in the direction he turns his eyes.

Cyclops controls his beam’s power so it acts like a light rapping on the knuckles. Also an example of the beam seeming to go where his eyes are pointing, which is a little below where his face is pointing.

AND MORE!

Cyclops shoots two guards at once, and sends them both rolling like wheels!

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#83 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait. Are there 2 BotWs going on right now?

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#84 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18247 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait. Are there 2 BotWs going on right now?

This one ended,or is supposed to have anyway since the results for this are already in.

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