Battle of the Week: Samurai Jack vs Lion-o

Sweet

Oh boy.

Can't wait to see how people will argue that Jack beats composite Lion-O. Here is the Armor of Omens transformation and its not even Lion-O's best.

Sword of Omens is also stronger than Jacks sword by an absurd degree. Literally cannot find any videos of its feats to save my life though

A rule I forgot to add was to assume Jacks sword will cut Lion-o.

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Lion-O wins.

Finally my boy Jack gets a BotW. Feats for the other dude someone?

Lets see what else.....

• if we use comics then we also get to scale Mumm-Ra off Superman (as he almost beat him in their crossover). Lion-o also tagged and hurt Superman with the Sword of Omens
• Also, the Sword of Omens in the original show is on par with the Sword of Plun-Darr which destroyed a planet with its magical energies, on top of being a massive plot device that could do pretty much anything post Season 2. This is including weather manipulation, at least 10 different types of energy blast, creating intense heat energy and flames, extending to a virtually unlimited size, physically amping Thundercats, creating force fields, bringing inanimate objects to life and allowing flight
• The Sword of Thundera also has the capabilities to keep a world from exploding by absorbing and channeling chaotic energies at its core that was ripping it apart. I would imagine a different application of this power could be used to contain Jack very easily and this also shows how powerful this sword truly is.
• Lastly I seem to recall the energy blasts from the Eye of Thundera going through a planet but take that with a grain of salt because I can't find anything corroborating that aside from the Wiki
• Lion-O can slice through massive boulders with the Sword of Omens extremely casually. He is also strong enough to punch trees in half with ease and has overpowered Panthero who can toss tanks.
• Lion-O can run faster than Cheetara who can run at 120MPH and is capable of reacting to lighting and lasers. I doubt he is as fast as Jack but I don't think he is getting blitzed either UPDATE HERE: Apparently in the comics Cheetara is able to run multiple miles in a few seconds, so keeping up to her in a race is even more impressive
• With the Armor of Omens he can tank powerful lightning blasts from Armored Mumm-Ra that almost one shot the Thundercats normally. In addition he is capable of physically clashing with Mumm-Ra in this state who is powerful enough to send normal Lion-O flying

Lion-O has a lot going for him here. In fact the Sword of Omens is completely sentient and seems to be a lot more willing to spam magical attacks than Lion-O is, so I think he could just let the sword do all the fighting for him here seeing as Jack has no way to break it and it can decimate him with energy attacks

Loads of Jack votes with no arguments....figures

Might just have to do a full CaV style opener here

Any arguements for Lion-O? I know he is pretty beast so I'm gonna stay away from voting till I see what he can do.

Looks like a good fight.

I don't have even the slightest idea but I will be entertained to learn.

I posted what I know off the top of my head above

I'm psyched to see Jack in a Battle of the Week. Even Lion-O. But I can't begin to defend either of them.

@decaf_wizard: Can you post a few scans, gifs or videos?

I really can't find most of them because the show is so old. It would take me ages to track down all of them which I really don't have at the moment. Its 12:00 here lol.

Here is the link to the planet holding together feat.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5132ox

@decaf_wizard:

if we use comics then we also get to scale Mumm-Ra off Superman (as he almost beat him in their crossover). Lion-o also tagged and hurt Superman with the Sword of Omens

I'm not voting yet but I'm always wary of taking high end feats from unknown characters at face value, especially when these characters where picked because they are suppose to be in a rough ballpark of each other. Trying to scale off a non-canon cross over for instance. The comic itself could very well be canon to the Thundercats, but the only feats the Superman in it would have would be those in the comic itself, as it's not canon to the DC setting proper.

@decaf_wizard: No way that all can be true, I mean Lion O would easily stomp in that case.

Well I mean you can check it yourself but I can post the planet level energy manipulation bit in a link to the episode. The context to this is that the energy of the planets core is going out of control and destroying the planet. The Sword of Omens is able to absorb and stabilize this energy. I'll post more actual links tomorrow, but the Sword of Omens was an absurd plot device and its made worse by this being composite Lion-O with Armor of Omens and the stones of power or whatever they are called

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5132ox

Well to be fair Jack isn't using energy attacks. Its ability to absorb and manipulate energy shouldn't be to relevant here.

All though I will say this match up was something that was brought up in the PM. My only exposure to thunder cats was the 2011 series (like half of the first season IIRC) and I never got the impression Lion-o was planetary level there.

Yea but considering we can use that to prove that the Sword is capable of manipulating energy of that caliber then we can apply that to its numerous energy attacks and force fields. Furthermore, the Sword of Plun-Darr one of the two swords that is stated to maybe be on par with the Sword of Omens was able to destroy Thundera to escape imprisonment.

Its pretty obvious that these swords were designed to be planet level artifacts, and tbh like I said the Sword of Omens was an absurd plot device that had whatever powers the plot demanded. Lion-O would be like high street level without it albeit I remember him being quite fast (I would have to look up his speed feats)

@decaf_wizard: Well does the sword of omens itself have planetary level destruction feats? I'm not familiar with the lore of thundercats but if the sword of plundar has vastly superior showings in regards to destruction than I imagine that could make the statement questionable.

My second question would be to ask if power at that level is actually consistent.

Again I seem to remember the Eye of Thundera (gem in the sword) blasting through a planet and further investigation on the Thundercats wiki confirms this, but seeing as I can't find this anywhere (again because the show is so old) I would be hesitant on saying that it does until I've tracked it down (which I will be doing tomorrow)

The Sword of Plun-Darr has multiple times failed to the Sword of Omens and its been stated as one of weapons that can challenge it multiple times in the series. Its obvious they are on the same tier or the Sword of Omens is superior.

And no these powers levels aren't consistent but they do get absurd often. The Sword is consistently inconsistent. Sometimes the sword gets shattered by random enemies and sometimes its pulling off insane feats. The further you go into the series the more the sword does things like this. Its comparable to Silver Age Supes doing absurdly powerful things one day and losing to a mook with a gimmick the next. Again its basically an absurd plot device that does what the writers demand it to

Then you also have to consider Lion-O's willingness to use that level of power. If planet busting attacks were the casual norm, then the Mutants should never once have been an issue...

Well just because he can doesn't mean he needs to. He can just as easily use one of the other abilities of the Sword (like force fields) to contain Jack and I doubt there is anything he can do about it

To be honest, assuming that we are using feats for Lion-O from the OG series and the new series... He might stomp. I think I'm going to side with him here. Towards the end of the new series, Lion-O mastered his gauntlet and could turn it into an extremely powerful suit of armor.

On top of that, the OG Sword of Omens was a straight up plot device. In almost every new episode it displayed a new power. Lion-O essentially had a spider-sense thanks to the SoO warning him of incoming danger, could produce force fields, shoot beams from the sword, and could even fly...

I don't know squat about Jack. From what people have said of him on the forums, he is a force to be reckoned with. While the sword does offer plot device, you have to consider general overall application, and the fact that Lion-O isn't granted an auto win with it (he has lost before). So, how far could Jack push Lion-O, and what point does the "plot device" kick in before he loses? If it does at all?

Im not seeing how Jack pushes composite Lion-O to be completely honest. His durability is significantly above Jacks especially with the Armor of Omens. His strength is comparable as well IMO. His speed is at the very least enough to not get blitzed and his versatility and energy manipulation grants him an extremely significant advantage that I can't see Jack overcoming

And I was never trying to claim there would be a plot device that allowed Lion-O to win. I used the term to explain why the Sword is so all over the place and has as many powers as Batman has gadgets

@decaf_wizard: Well as I said I don't know enough about the lore in the series. So I'm just going to address the point:

Well I didn't really realize the 80's cartoon was really like silver age comics (assuming that is where your getting the bulk of your feats from). But bear in mind that this is a bit of a composite canon. I'm guessing we will have more consistency in modern stories. Also in regards to the superman/thunder cats crossover I just looked into that and I would like to point out Mummra and superman didn't have much of a fight. Mummra did nearly kill superman because of his magic but it was only because superman was "arrogant and ignorant" as mummra put it. Also in the same crossover superman was able to stomp Lion-o despite the sword of omens, and also even though he was under the influence of magic and kyrptonite seemingly (superman said during his fight with the thunder cats that he felt like kryptonite was present):

Gallery

It really doesn't seem like Lion-o did anything more than annoy superman.

@jashro44: Yea. Im just using the Super-Man feat to prove that Lion-O can tag him, as well as have a baseline to scale Mumm-Ra's magic

Also: The 2011 Thundercats probably aren't much better for the Jack considering that Lion-O would get the Power Stones from that. I don't know much about 2011 Thundercats but one of the stones was able to produce enough antigravity to levitate a city

The Sword of Omen's and a lot of it's best showings...plot device. Again, I don't know anything about Jack, but having seen a lot of Thundercats...I don't remember the Armor of Omens being a completely, go to, every battle, right out of the gate kind of thing. The sword has many powers, yes, but they aren't an everyday kind of application...

If Jack loses in your estimation, great, not arguing it. But how many of the OP powers will actually come into play, against someone who fights with some honor, is a hero, and isn't pulling out insane, Mumm-Ra style attacks?

It doesn't say much about Mummra's magic because superman isn't invulnerable to magic. Lion-o tagging superman doesn't mean much either because superman doesn't always fight with his maximum speed. Aside from that superman actually did blitz Lion-o during the fight.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/PsGJEIO9ivpGdnW2apaRMDXIHC7gIuUJPuUCkJM_e8ILNjPeBiBMoOn6bzqyo6-iTX8FEKh27uwP1dUr2Ntm5gWi_FR9wEhDUFqeiUtRP-91RIAMQ21mgUJcihUyjnM3mi_mqw=s0

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/2lAmcHwzT14Or5k2x0_30-XUeUYGk_a1mgtzlU5zz_kLcvJ4nqmk-BwKiyxVD96vVC9m892SkBYSGw1XfdAxQCkETFbFAn4YPwlHaTVQYC_UgAIRsJQ-zHZ8xq_IQzRXr8ugmg=s0

Also the 2 times Lion-o did tag superman was when superman had his back turned and didn't notice him (I guess he wasn't using his super hearing) and also when superman didn't know Lion-o's sword was magic (so we don't even know if he tried to dodge).

Well I mean fighting with Honor doesn't mean gimping yourself even if you don't start spamming energy attacks or going nuts with magic. If Jacks only hope is that Lion-O won't use the abilities he has.........

Its also worth noting that 2011 Lion-O did start doing this to an extent when he got the Armor of Omens, using energy attacks against Mumm-Ra multiple times so its not entirely out of character. He has had entire fights that basically amount to magic duels in the OG series as well

I'll say Lion-O wins.

Lion-O wouldn't be gimping himself with his base abilities as is. He doesn't just pull on the full might of the sword in the start of all his battles...whether his foes are fighting with honor or not, and whether or not it gimps him. If he did...there wouldn't be much of a show. That being said, I think a lot of the more outlandish abilities of the sword, would not come into play in a battle such as this. I am even highly doubtful on the armor being put into play...it was used in how many episodes? One at least...Legacy...

As much as i love jack, looks like lion-O has this.

Fair enough, although I've always been confused about Superman's resistance to magic. Is he specifically weak to it or is he just not particularly resistant? I imagine just using magic to chuck a fireball at him would hurt about as much as a normal fireball (that is to say, not at all) so doesn't Mumm-Ra's feat count for something?

He just doesn't have any special resistance, he's not any weaker to it. Him getting hit with magic is about the same as anyone else basically.

@wyldsong: I know that, but wouldn't his durability carry over to energy based magics like summoning lightning or energy? I mean he has been hit by energy attacks before that would kill normal humans easily

@decaf_wizard: If it is regular fire or lightning, he should be fine from what I understand. Add that magical energy to it (Thor's lightning, hell fire, so on), then not so much. Just think of it in the terms of a lot of fantasy/video game kind of sources. You have a regular dude, a pugilist (normal human with nothing special to his hits), and a "monk" (whose attacks hit like magic). Against the big demon bad arse who doesn't fear the natural world, the hits from the pugilist are laughed off. Against the monk, whose hits are laced with magic (or chi), he feels the hits because of that mystic mumbo jumbo added to the attack.

@decaf_wizard: I think the affect of magic on superman varies from writer to writer. I've seen it been called a weakness before but it doesn't usually weaken him. I think magic just hurts him more than regular attacks.

@wyldsong: Is Thor's lightning actually magical though? I've seen characters who lack magical resistance tank it just fine in the past (ex: Hulk but maybe he is and I'm wrong).

I'm pretty sure that Superman's vulnerability to magic was originally intended to just be a plot device in a battle with Captain Marvel. Then got carried away as an easy way to have Superman face actual challenges without having kryptonite involved all the time. I'm not sure what issues these are from, but it's been listed as both a vulnerability and a weakness:

Gallery

These scans were from @multiversity from this thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/so-why-is-superman-weak-against-magic-1860883/

I do believe his lightning has done things regular lightning couldn't do. I am no Thor expert though, so don't take my word on it. He just came to mind, really, I could have used Lady Death from Chaos, whose lightning one shotted the walls of Heaven itself. It's just the idea of someone using something from the natural world, that has a little more "bamf" to it than the natural stuff thanks to the magic, supernatural mumbo jumbo.

@tparks said:

@jashro44 said:

@decaf_wizard: I think the affect of magic on superman varies from writer to writer. I've seen it been called a weakness before but it doesn't usually weaken him. I think magic just hurts him more than regular attacks.

I'm pretty sure that Superman's vulnerability to magic was originally intended to just be a plot device in a battle with Captain Marvel. Then got carried away as an easy way to have Superman face actual challenges without having kryptonite involved all the time. I'm not sure what issues these are from, but it's been listed as both a vulnerability and a weakness:

Gallery

These scans were from @multiversity from this thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/so-why-is-superman-weak-against-magic-1860883/

The way I have always heard it described by fans on this site, is that it he isn't overtly weak to it, he just doesn't have a resistance to it like he does everything else. That could be listed as a "weakness", so I can understand that, but it doesn't exactly make him weaker to it than anyone else. So yeah, I can see the "vulnerability" bit being used, because it is one of the few things you can hit him with that he would feel. From the way I have always understood, he just isn't "weaker" to it than anyone else.

@lvenger...talk to us about this Superman and magic thing.

How did a Lion-o vs Samurai Jack debate transform into a Superman and magic discussion?

It seems this WHOLE argument of who wins depends on one question. Is Lion O a match for Superman. if yes, then he clearly beats Jack.

Your welcome :)

I will make a case for Jack later tonight.

@tparks said:

@jashro44 said:

@decaf_wizard: I think the affect of magic on superman varies from writer to writer. I've seen it been called a weakness before but it doesn't usually weaken him. I think magic just hurts him more than regular attacks.

I'm pretty sure that Superman's vulnerability to magic was originally intended to just be a plot device in a battle with Captain Marvel. Then got carried away as an easy way to have Superman face actual challenges without having kryptonite involved all the time. I'm not sure what issues these are from, but it's been listed as both a vulnerability and a weakness:

Gallery

These scans were from @multiversity from this thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/so-why-is-superman-weak-against-magic-1860883/

Not really considering, that way before DC bought Captain Marvel, Superman already had a weakness to magic. It was introduced during the Silver age, they already had Kryptonite and they wanted other weakness to justify Superman being damaged considering that during that age Superman was stated to be invulnerable, so they needed ways to put him into interesting situations and with wizards they could have entire issues where Superman was turned into a baby or all kinds of wacky things without breaking his powers.

Basically what you've said already "he isn't overtly weak to it, he just doesn't have a resistance to it like he does everything else" summarises Superman's magic problems. Where Superman can tank energy blasts or nukes, his invulnerability doesn't always extend to magic. So Superman can sometimes resist powerful magic attacks or be weak as a kitten against them. In Lion-O's case, it was apparently magic and Kryptonite mixed together that caused the damage, and even then Superman stomped the Thundercats with ease.