Battle of The Week: Punisher VS Red Hood

Oh yeah

Everyone knows who I am voting for.

I say Red Hood due to being a better hand to hand combatant.

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Sorry this match up is a few days late.

Feats for Jason:

Im pretty sure its well known that Jason would win a H2H fight, so for now i'll stick to stuff more relevant.

Starting off, lets look at Jason's training.

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We all know Jason has spend years of his life being trained by Batman. He was also trained by Nightwing. After being resurrected, he trained under numerous world class mercenaries that were hired by Talia al Ghul (in the case shown above, Egon). Jason also “learned what Batman learned”, personally IDK just how seriously we should take that, but it is there. Jason then trained under the All-Caste for a year. All-Caste being an ancient race of superhumans/gods. After leaving the All-Caste he joined up with the League of Assassins. Cheshire said she and Jason trained together for months. Cheshire also said Jason got the full Lady Shiva training.

Jason's various trainers make him much more versatile then the Punisher, who only has military training.

This fight is mainly a gun fight. So I'll try to stay with feats that are relevant. Jason has some very solid bullet/projectile dodging feats.

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(1) Bullet times as a child. (2) Jumps, and maneuvers around lots of gunfire. (3-4) Dodges Mr. Freeze and 4 goons at the same time. (5) Dodged machine guns point blank, plucks a bullet out of the air to break his handcuffs. (6-7) Easily avoids Green Arrow's arrows. (8) Slices two of Speedy's arrows out of the air at the same time. (9) As a child, Jason easily danced around Captain Boomerang, a Flash villain.

As Robin, he dodges a shotgun point blank:

Jason's marksmenship is also top notch:

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(1) As Robin he shoots a man in the hand with a harpoon, faster then the guy can attack Batgirl. (2) As Robin, he uses a shotgun too hold off cops. (3) He shoots Joker in the leg. (4) He shoots the string on Speedy's bow. (5) Easily shoots Damian Wayne. (6) Shoots Tim Drake without even looking. (7-8) Tags Deathstroke. This feat is amazing, He isn't just tagging Slade with his accuracy, Jason actually manipulated Slade into opening himself up.

This should be enough until someone actually posts some Punisher feats.

Like I've said before Frank's no pushover even in the slightest but here he's out classed by Jason in almost every area excluding experience(Which is debatable because of his time as robin to his current identity of Red Hood) and overall firepower ( which Jason doesn't need to rely on). Jason physically is superior in every way with a equally deadly and brutal combat style. The worse place he outshines frank however is skill,being trained by the likes of Lady Shiva and actually being on par with Batman,coming out less damaged then Bruce in UTRH and in Red Hood and the Outlaws #0 in which he has Bruce on the ground and both cases could be argued that bruce was holding back but that would be at least IMO out of character for Bruce.

The OP was nice enough to put them on even terms gear wise but even then that won't change every other advantage Jason has. In Short, Jason is on equal footing strength wise, Faster around DD's level,more skilled due to training around the world and legitimately beating Bruce, and is just as brutal. I don't think Frank will go down easy but he will go down regardless of his legendary pain tolerance ( which is another thing he has over Jason....but that is mostly due to being tagged more often :3).

All in All - Red Hood 7.5/10

@stormshadow_x: They both have a kevlar vest here. I tried to equalize gear as much as I could to make this come down to skill/tactics/physicals rather than gear.

@jashro44: My bad. I'll edit my post. I should of read the full post.

Its cool.

Frank. Jason's overrated and has lost numerous times to Damian.

@comicstooge: You're lowballing Jason.

Let's ask Morrison, the creator of Damian Wayne, what he thinks about that match up.

Oh. Well then. That should certainly hold more weight then the rookie writer Tom King, or the Batgod (see Robin Rises) wanker Peter Tomasi.

@stormshadow_x: Scans of a fight or it is BS.

I have seen scans of Jason humiliating Bat man with no context for four years. Either there was a fight, or I write it off as a killing joke nightmare sequence.

All his best feats have bucketloads of context.

@allstarsuperman said:

@comicstooge said:

Frank. Jason's overrated and has lost numerous times to Damian.

Let's ask Morrison, the creator of Damian Wayne, what he thinks about that match up.

Oh. Well then. That should certainly hold more weight then the rookie writer Tom King, or the Batgod (see Robin Rises) wanker Peter Tomasi.

Different continuity, bro. New 52 Damian > any version of Jason.

Red Hood all dah way. He wins due to superior skill in h2h. I'd say Punisher is probably a better marksmen, but he won't be able to land a kill shot before Jason gets on top of him. By then its all over.

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Here he is trading blows with a rather angry Batman. The fight appears rather even before the masks come off. I don't see Punisher replicating this.

He's also pretty fast, able to avoid getting shot by a room full of armed mafia men:

Even if it comes down to a shootout, Jason is quick on the draw and a very good shot himself.

@comicstooge: then by that logic Damian > Jason > Punisher.

Well no, because Jason is a scrub who gets stalemated by Tim Drake, loses to Damian, struggles against fodder Talons etc.

@col_facepuncher: The thing you should bring up about the first UtRH fight is how the characters look before and after. Both start off in prime conditions, at the end of it, Bruce has been stripped of his utility belt, had one of his gauntlets blown up, has several big slices across his chest, and gets his mask ripped off and his face bloodied. Jason on the other hand looks no worse for wear.

@comicstooge: Im not debating you anymore. You're being biased and foolish. Want me to go through Punishers latest run and pick out all his lowest showings? No, that would be stupid.

Lol, there's no way Batman was going all out.

This is what happen when Bruce takes Jason seriously:

@comicstooge: Hurm, yeah. A blooded lip and or nose? That's sure a stomp isn't it? I guess everyfight is lost once blood is drawn. Right? Every UFC fight, every boxing match, it ends the moment blood is drawn? Yeah, that sounds about right.

Keep up the lowballing, I'm sure lots of people will take you seriously.

How about you actually prove why Punisher can win. Ya know, like a good viner should?

He was beating the shit out of Jason who couldn't even defend himself.

It's not lowballing just because I don't place him on sort of grand, street level deity tier you put him on.

@comicstooge: Whats that? Still not a single feat for Punisher? Just more lowballing and attacking me? .......yeah, I'm done.

Stop being a soggy loaf.

I think people are really underrating Punisher's CQC skill here. He is no iron fist, but his brutal and efficient fighting style has allowed him to nearly stalemate daredevil twice, nearly kill Daken (who more or less survived due to his healing factor) and his nigh superhuman threshold for pain allows him to soak an ungodly amount of damage. So while he may not beat Jason in a close quarter fight, he can definitely give him hell.

@nickzambuto: lmao

Jason is the superior hand to hand combatant but Frank's marksmanship and weaponry is probably better than what Jason has done. And before anyone pulls up the New 52 Batman or Deathstroke 'wins,' the Batman one has no context behind it whatsoever (not to mention that Batman has stomped Jason both Pre Flashpoint and New 52, the latter in Tomasi's B&R run during the 5 stages of Grief arc.) And Deathstroke was weakened both by being poisoned by Snake Bite's stinger affecting his healing factor and having just fought Lexcorp security meant he wasn't in top physical condition when he fought Jason.

Punisher wins. With just one shot. Lol

Someone must make an organized Punisher respect thread, but I'm way too lazy.

I'm siding with the guy that ate a shotgun blast and then beat the crap out of the person that shot him.

Are you talking about punisher? when did that happen?

So who are you backing in this fight?

Red hood semi easy

@citizensentry: That feat is from a Punisher Max story called "In the beginning". It is not canon to the 616 universe.

My apologies, i thought Max was in fact canon.

No worries. The punisher max stories take place on Earth-200111 where Frank ages in real time and there are no real superheros or super villains. If you are into punisher, I would recommend giving these stories a read.

@brucerogers: Cheers for the info pal, are the "Max" books available digitally? As the closest CBS is roughly 40miles away.

Red Hood is more skilled but Frank is better shooter and can handle pain more than red hood (I think?) ad i think both are equaly brutal

and Red Hood lost to Bruce's son and got stomped by Batman himself in pre crisis and new 52 end up with a stalemate with Tim Drake

I'm going with a tie

@citizensentry: Anytime mate :). As for getting it online, I am not too sure since marvel's main website has not released some of these in digital format yet. You could check it out and see if that has changed now.

@allstarsuperman said:

@comicstooge said:

Frank. Jason's overrated and has lost numerous times to Damian.

Let's ask Morrison, the creator of Damian Wayne, what he thinks about that match up.

Oh. Well then. That should certainly hold more weight then the rookie writer Tom King, or the Batgod (see Robin Rises) wanker Peter Tomasi.

Lets ask Post Crisis Jason creator Starlin what he thinks of Todd while we're at it, lets ask the other creator Collins or the editor O'Neal as well.

Rookie writer and BatGod wanker? amazing man amazing, if someone posts scans of Flamingo owning Jason then the same Morrison will also become a wanker.

@entropy_aegis: Flamingo is overrated and mostly inconsistent. He shot Jason in the face, twice, with a sniper rifle, at near point blank. Jason was disoriented before it ever went H2H. Then Flamingo didn't even beat him H2H, he shot him point blank cause jason was still disoriented. IIRC, Nightwing showed up just in time, out fought Flamingo, but got kicked off a cliff (more so plot then anything, so the fight could continue). Then Damian and Scarlet carve Flamingo up, but get taken down eventually. Then Jason gets in a crane (or something IDK the name) and smashes Flamingo.

Flamingo really isn't the team buster you make him out to be. And he's also inconsistent as shit. He later got one shotted by grown up Damian in Batman 666, yet that Batman directly said he wasn't as good as Grayson or Bruce. Then we also have that showing of Flamingo in Batman Eternal, where he gets beat by untrained Stephanie Brown. This showing, doesn't hold much weight. Flamingo only out fought, two little kids, he needed stealth for Jason and Beating Grayson was pure luck. Grayson would have soloed Flamingo had it not been for the cliff.

How can he one shot him?

You clearly do not get the ironic use of words for Punisher with Jasons own special move.

Also this vote happen already .

Just saying. Even if Punisher loses votes here, he won in others lol.

I dont see Pun beating the Hood . May be with plenty prep he might can.

This match for sure goes to the hood

High showings to high showings, sure. Jason has never tagged a spiderman or a speedster. But honestly, that doesn't even help Punisher when he fights street level ninjas. Elektra and Daredevil aren't actually faster then Spider-Man or Burnout, but they have easily dodged him, closed the distance, and stomped him in a fight.

This fight is a lot more complicated than "Jason has more skill, but Frank is more accurate". Frank is more accurate, but Jason is more evasive. Frank does have a slight edge in pain tolerance, but it doesn't over come Jason's actual durability. Etc.

The way I see it, Jason's skill, stealth, speed, agility, and better armor, will give him an edge over Punisher's only edge, accuracy. Jason shoots at Franks face, Punisher loses his head. Punisher shoots at Jason's face, at best Jason dodges it, and worst, his helmet protects him from atleast the first couple rounds. Jason just has more forgiveness to work with here.

And before anyone pulls up the New 52 Batman or Deathstroke 'wins,' the Batman one has no context behind it whatsoever (not to mention that Batman has stomped Jason both Pre Flashpoint and New 52, the latter in Tomasi's B&R run during the 5 stages of Grief arc.)

New 52 only showed a definitive "Bruce on the ground, Jason above him" win. The actual Pre-Flashpoint fight is the one that matters, cause it's the one we see. And in that one, Jason won. Look at it how you want, hate the fact that Jason won, I don't care. But you can't possibly say Batman stomped him, not when Bruce looked like this:

And Deathstroke was weakened both by being poisoned by Snake Bite's stinger affecting his healing factor and having just fought Lexcorp security meant he wasn't in top physical condition when he fought Jason.

Yeah, there's no denying that. But Slade was also confident in his ability. Slade told Snakebite that "he's had worse hangovers" and in his fight with Jason, he genuinely thought he could win. But he didn't, Jason stomped him in all honesty. Compare that fight to the Batman vs DeathStroke fight earlier in the same run. Weaken Deathstroke still beat the crap outta Bruce.

@lvenger: I forgot to address one thing above.

And before anyone pulls up the New 52 Batman or Deathstroke 'wins,' the Batman one has no context behind it whatsoever (not to mention that Batman has stomped Jason both Pre Flashpoint and New 52, the latter in Tomasi's B&R run during the 5 stages of Grief arc.)

Do you even read the comics you're attempting to reference. That issue you're talking about is Batman and Red Hood 20:

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That's the full "fight", if you can even call it that. Jason got angry over Bruce being an asshole, Bruce was feeling guilty over Damian. This was just an emotional brawl. Is either character using gear? No. Is either character employing tactics? No. Is either character even actually trying? No, not really. So please, show me where this "stomp" was you were talking about.

@allstarsuperman said:

@

New 52 only showed a definitive "Bruce on the ground, Jason above him" win. The actual Pre-Flashpoint fight is the one that matters, cause it's the one we see. And in that one, Jason won. Look at it how you want, hate the fact that Jason won, I don't care. But you can't possibly say Batman stomped him, not when Bruce looked like this:

You've fallen into full blown delusion.

Behold, Batman stomping Jason:

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That helmet of his post peirced by a crowbar:

Seriously, keep going on about how Jason is > Batman while he struggles against Tim Drake and loses to Nightwing. Meanwhile Frank has consistent feats against the likes of Daredevil, Wolverine, Daken, Moon Knight, Bullseye, Black Widow and a host of other characters.

Jason is so much better than Bruce, right? Like how he got brutally one-shotted by Bane?

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He was like, 60 in the noncanon story you're refering to.