Battle of the Week: Ninjak vs Batman

@jacensolo77: I’m not sure why you’re making the interpretation that Batman has much better stats just because he grounded Cain in two blows alone when Cain might have done the same for all we know (not saying he would feat wise). No, if anything, managing to tag Cain with precision strikes ear-claps might even be more relevant to how quickly he disoriented him and is a much better display of skill than a simple punch.

What’s more, I could just as easily make my own interpretation - Batman defeated Cain despite Cain having trained him himself and therefore recognized some of the moves present in his technique. Regardless, this doesn’t really matter and is more of a subjective matter than anything (which I was I’m not really interested in discussing this further) - Cain is solidly more skilled than Ninjak and Batman is more skilled than Cain himself.

@lanternbatman: I’m not sure why you’re making the interpretation that Batman has much better stats just because he grounded Cain in two blows alone when Cain might have done the same for all we know (not saying he would feat wise).

So two hits from Bruce is enough to put Cain down [Happened again during Batgirl] yet you're seriously going to tell me Cain is remotely even stats wise yet Bruce consistently treats him like dirt in that regard.

No, if anything, managing to tag Cain with precision strikes ear-claps might even be more relevant to how quickly he disoriented him and is a much better display of skill than a simple punch.

Not really.

What’s more, I could just as easily make my own interpretation - Batman defeated Cain despite Cain having trained him himself and therefore recognized some of the moves present in his technique. Regardless, this doesn’t really matter and is more of a subjective matter than anything (which I was I’m not really interested in discussing this further) - Cain is solidly more skilled than Ninjak and Batman is more skilled than Cain himself.

I'm not denying Bruce is more skilled than Cain, that much is self evident but they are in the same tier and I'm arguing against the gap you're making out, which is more of a difference in stats than anything imo.

@jacensolo77:

1)That’s initially what I wasn’t sure of - you just rephrased it. Cain’s stats are mostly unexplored; I’m not going to assert that he is on the same-level but I’m not going to assume he is far outside of his ballpark either given we don’t have enough evidence of anything. Again, I’m not talking feat-wise here, just going on-paper on what Brubaker was thinking when he wrote the fight. And, funny you brung up Batgirl. That fight was Batman completely demolishing Cain (not that I believe Bruce can beat him that easily), Cain couldn’t do anything. Don’t bring up Cain being “drunk” - we already discussed that on Discord.

2)Not really isn’t an argument and I hope you have something more than that.

3)I consider them on the same tier, on the top 10 of DC and somewhat comparable - but Cain just isn’t on his level, if that makes sense.

@lanternbatman: 1)That’s initially what I wasn’t sure of - you just rephrased it. Cain’s stats are mostly unexplored; I’m not going to assert that he is on the same-level but I’m not going to assume he is far outside of his ballpark either given we don’t have enough evidence of anything.

So we have Cain getting trounced by Bruce and badly damaged twice in a mere two blows yet we're going to argue they're on the same level of stats based on conjecture. That doesn't add up.

Again, I’m not talking feat-wise here, just going on-paper on what Brubaker was thinking when he wrote the fight.

Neither of us are Brubaker we don't know for certain what he was thinking but in all honesty given what was actually shown my interpretation of the fight is probably along the lines of what he was thinking. We know Bruce's more skilled but it's not to any considerable degree.

And, funny you brung up Batgirl. That fight was Batman completely demolishing Cain (not that I believe Bruce can beat him that easily),

Yes and it runs consistent with the fight during Fugitive. Bruce stomped him due to stats, he literally again drops him in two hits, further cementing the idea that Bruce is reasonably beyond Cain in stats but his marginal superior in skill.

Cain couldn’t do anything. Don’t bring up Cain being “drunk” - we already discussed that on Discord.

Didn't once mention that but ok.

2)Not really isn’t an argument and I hope you have something more than that.

I'll expand on that over discord where we were going to take this discussion.

3)I consider them on the same tier, on the top 10 of DC and somewhat comparable - but Cain just isn’t on his level, if that makes sense.

Fair enough but I disagree, I view Bruce as only marginally superior based of their fight and Cain's performances against Floyd and Cassandra in raw skill at least. In stats Bruce is so far beyond him that Cain struggles to compete.

Cain was doing fine against Deathstroke. I honestly don't think Batman beat him by being far above him stat-wise.

Besides, Cassandra is better than Bruce across the board and still didn't two-shot Cain. So I doubt it's anything but skill/strategy related.

1.You're failing to take into account the disparity between prime Cain and post prime Cain.

2.Cassandra is better than Bruce skill wise but in stats she's below him so it follows Cain could give her a tougher fight than he could to Bruce.

@jacensolo77: Frankly, at this point we’re debating semantics. Cain can give Batman a relatively good fight skill-wise before getting defeated, simply. I’ll address everything on discord, this isn’t going anywhere any time soon and we’re clogging the thread.

I'm enjoying this thread. Me hoping ILS responds back haha

@lanternbatman: @reaverlation: Yes, do expect a response. Really looking forward to this debate.

I was leaning Ninjak, but CIB's breakdown convinced me that Batman can defeat and counter him in a good fight. I'll try to refrain before voting though, since I'm curious to see what sort of response ILS is going to make.

Nice! Looks like we have ourselves a good debate. :)

@lanternbatman: BTW dude, you did make a few erroneous accusations that I am going to clear up ahead of time, so that nobody else gets the wrong idea...

It's important to note Ninjak only "beat" H through an anti-psychotic gas that helped him see the truth of the matter rather than any focused h2h engagement or anything but otherwise, solid feat to fight H evenly.

This is absolutely false. Ninjak had amputated H's cybernetic arm before the gas had a tangible effect on his mental state, and even after he saw the truth he was more than willing to fire a point blank missile at Ninjak. To say the anti psychotic was the "only reason" Ninjak amputated him, while having no intention of killing him the entire fight, is just a blatant misinterpretation of the text.

Frankly, you're taking the Ninja-K2 fight out of context in a very convenient way, this is the full fight from Ninja-K #6. Ninjak literally admitted K2 might very well be his equal in terms of fighting skill, the reason he won was because he was much more experienced - something stated twice in the fight; K2's tricks he learned from Jonin were now old tricks, and whereas K2 only routinely fought terrorist cells and the like, Ninjak constantly saves the world from Annihilation in his work with the Unity squad.

Firstly, explain what I am taking out of context. I said "even though K2 was much better when he fought Ninjak, he still ended up getting his ass kicked." - that is a verifiable fact. I'm not sure why you are posting the full fight as if this contradicts anything I have said, or as if I haven't made the exact same set of pages easily accessible already. Ninjak said "he might be my equal in terms of skills" - but raw skills do not encompass the full package any fighter brings to the table, otherwise a random Fitzhugh clone wouldn't be fodder for Ninjak. Ninjak pointing out that he has more experience, along with the fact he caught K2's daggers easily and then threw them back and stabbed him with them, and also stabbed him through the gut before he could finish swinging his blade... all provides justification for my pretty simple observation that K2 got his ass kicked.

K2 got his ass kicked even though he used alien gas to disorientate Ninjak, giving him a free stab. The reason experience plays such a key role is due to total recall - being able to remember every piece of knowledge ever acquired in your life means that the greater your wealth of experience is, the more effective a fighter you will be overall. Ninjak simply had more reference points to draw from than K2 despite them having very similar training.

And to further point out the disparity between Ninjak and K2 (aside from, you know, kicking his ass), is Ninjak stalemating the Jonin for a time immediately after fighting K2 - the Jonin who is an immortal with several centuries of experience, a contemporary of the Undead Monk, who personally trained not only K2 but the majority of Ninjak's ninja predecessors. Unless you want to argue the Jonin, who also manifests superhuman stats and outright magical abilities through sheer skill, shares some kind of parity with K2 which would be laughable to say the very least.

Is this Ninja-K #9? Because it's complete bullshit if true, possessed Eternal Warrior was literally stated on panel to not even retain a mere fraction of the original's skill, claiming he retains his full muscle memory and fighting skill is a blatant lie, it's literally right there, I don't know how you could possibly miss it...

That isn't what I'm referring to... because at that time a random, unknown demon was possessing the Eternal Warrior... not the Dying One. The Dying One is actually the woman talking in the scan you posted. I didn't miss anything or lie, you clearly just chose not to read my post properly.

In Ninja-K #9, Ninjak used nerve strikes to literally scare said demon out of the Eternal Warrior's body, and then the Dying One possessed the body. Circa Ninja-K #12 and #13, by which time the Dying One had access to all of the skills, knowledge, might and muscle memory of the Eternal Warrior, Ninjak defeated him twice. The reason you don't know how I could "possibly miss it" is because you are the one who missed it. :)

Bats

@i_like_swords: Nice, I can probably respond to that tommorow but I’ll have to reply to the rest of your upcoming counters next weekend or something (my weekend just finished and this week has a couple exams).

BTW, when I said you “lied” I didn’t mean anything offensive - it’s why I said “<if> that’s Ninja-K #9” It’s all in good competitiveness ;)

@jacensolo77: I disagree that Cassandra is in any way below Bruce stat-wise, but that's a topic for another day. I don't wanna derail this thread any further.

Ok.

Wow it's nice to see a valiant fight get this much attention compared to the last one Ninjak was in

Still leaning toward Ninjak. Haven't voted yet.