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Posted by EmperorThanos- (15501 posts) 5 days, 21 hours ago

Poll: Battle of the Week: Ninjak vs Batman (64 votes)

Ninjak 44%
Batman 55%
Too close to call 2%
No Caption Provided

In light of @k4tzm4n joining valiant, we thought it would be nice to have a valiant character in the BOTW this week. We decided to go with Ninjak, Valiant's Ninja super spy, with his opponent being none other that the Dark Knight himself, Batman.

Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear. Reboot Ninjak, Pre 52 Batman
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the votes aren't going how they should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Sunday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Sunday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads.

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#2 Posted by jashro44 (50764 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18002 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#4 Edited by Jacthripper (14321 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninja-K is as good as Batman, and he has comparable gear. He's just willing to finish the job.

Change my Mind

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#5 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5517 posts) - - Show Bio

Really solid fight, I will wait to see some arguments before laying down my personal case.

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#6 Posted by AValiantImge (87 posts) - - Show Bio

Another Ninjak fight eh? Lets see if this is a cricket fest like Ninjak vs Red Hood. As for the fight eh. Ninjak fights are really boring to me or more like Mid street fights are boring. Two highly trained humans with gear is kinda stale hey thats just me.

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#7 Edited by JuzaCloud (3099 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by comic_book_fan (10518 posts) - - Show Bio

i say batman wins he constantly fights way above his weight class and often times entire teams out of sheer know how ask anyone from supes to hal or john Stewart who is the most dangerous member of the justice league is but lets see some ninjack feats

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#9 Posted by Lan_Fan (11528 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by King-Ragnar (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on my limited knowledge on Ninjak, Pre 52 Batman should take this in a good fight.

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#11 Edited by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a case typed up for 'jak which I will post in a few hours, for those on the fence.

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#12 Posted by k4tzm4n (41707 posts) - - Show Bio

...you know who I voted for. :)

Moderator
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#13 Posted by deactivated-5c069b0374807 (26 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I know about Ninjak, Batman should win this after a good fight.

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#14 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15359 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce wins. Nice fite.

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#15 Posted by Helloman (24841 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman should win this.

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#16 Posted by Vertigo- (17252 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

...you know who I voted for. :)

>totally not because they own his ass :P

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#17 Posted by Gracetrack (4537 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't know much about Ninjak. Waiting to see some arguments.

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#18 Edited by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio

This was basically my case for Ninjak, except along the way it grew a few arms and legs and turned into a full blown essay. I am going to keep most of the content under spoiler blocks so that it doesn't clog the thread, but my case for Ninjak winning is at the bottom. It makes reference to everything I said in the essay. To be clear: the stuff under spoiler blocks is just information about Ninjak. My arguments for him beating Batman are at the bottom.

For the sake of brevity I’m not going to post scans or links, however everything I have said in the post below can be sourced in the Ninjak respect thread, and also the supplement respect thread.

Fighting Skills

Martial Arts & Weapon Knowledge

Ninjak is “expertly trained in the use of every weapon and fighting discipline on earth”. He has “mastered countless forms of armed and hand-to-hand martial arts.” So yes, buck-standard master of all martial arts accolade. Despite these movements being embedded into his muscle memory, Ninjak still practices strikes he has done hundreds of thousands of times, sometimes finding it difficult to switch off his battle instincts.

The Eternal Warrior has described Ninjak as being among the greatest warriors he has ever known – the Eternal Warrior is an immortal who has participated in every major war in human history, and has also fought countless supernatural threats.

Ninjak is an “Nth level master of Ninjutsu” with an “Omega level IQ”. Ninjak has knocked a man out by tapping his vagus nerve. He knows how to target every nerve ending in the human body, and knows how to “make them scream for days” with pressure points. Which he aptly demonstrated the time he caused such pain to a demon that he scared it into returning to hell…

What I described above is the tip of the iceberg – this doesn’t even scratch the surface of what Ninjak can do. Just baseline stuff.

Undead Monk Training – Unlocking the Mysteries of Body, Mind & Spirit

The real key to understanding how skilled Ninjak is lies not just in how many obscure disciplines he has mastered – it’s in the dark, mystical training he received from an immortal monk, which taught him how to stretch his physical, mental and spiritual limits to the fullest extent.

Before that, however, we need to talk about some clones. Dr. Silk created clones of his bodyguard named Fitzhugh (Fitz for short). These clones were constantly updated, upgraded and programmed with not only each other’s knowledge, but each other’s memories and experiences. That is hundreds of clones with unique experiences over the course of many decades.

Included in their programming was mastery of all known martial arts. They also have physical stats at the peak of what a human being can achieve. They weren’t just masters of all weapons and fighting styles – they were masters in disciplines across countless fields. A rogue clone travelled the world and struggled to encounter any new languages, cultures or practices he was not already fluent in.

Speaking of that rogue clone… this is where things get interesting. One of these clones went rogue and escaped. On the way out he had a tough fight with one other clone – as expected because they are the same guy.

The monk I mentioned earlier? Rogue Fitz went and trained in the mystical arts under his tutelage. So now that Rogue Fitz is mystically trained, guess what he did? He went back to Dr. Silk’s cloning lab, and easily, destroyed five of his fellow clones at the same time. Here are the two relevant quotes from the Valiant Handbook and Fitz himself:

“The Undead Monk’s training has allowed him to surpass all previous clones.” -Valiant Handbook

“They were no match for me anymore. My training had surpassed anything they’d accumulated. And none of them shared my memories or knowledge.” -Rogue Fitzhugh

So… to quickly recap. One clone is a peak human master of all martial arts, who shares hundreds of clones’ unique memories and experiences. After the Rogue Clone received mystical training, he easily stomped five of them at the same time.

The quote I posted above? That was from the comic where Ninjak and the rogue Clone fought each other to a standstill in hand-to-hand.

Just to make something clear: the Undead Monk training, for centuries, has been lost to history. Nobody other than his students have this training. It is not classed as a “known” martial art. This training “completed Ninjak’s mastery of the martial arts”, meaning that his students likely do receive the same kind of technical skill as the Fitz clones. However, martial arts training is only one component of the overall training, of which there are many facets.

The key to the training is meditation. By mastering meditation, the limits of the body and mind are stretched as far as they can go, and a large variety of new skills, many of which are outright superhuman, are made available, which will be detailed below.

Firstly, students are taught how to feel, control and even heal every individual cell in their body. I repeat, every individual cell. That means they can:

  • Feel their nerve endings like they can feel their finger tips.
  • Control all of their nerve and muscle impulses at the cellular level.
  • Feel every bone, every muscle, every tendon, every follicle – and also feel how they interconnect with one another.
  • It has been described as a feeling of complete control over every cell in their body.
  • It has been described as being taught “the limits of their minds and bodies”, “unlocking the mysteries of the body, mind and spirit” to do things “no other men could.”

When a Ninja agent learnt these arts he described it as learning the “spiritual underpinnings” of his initial training. And that’s the key: this kind of training is inherently mystical/spiritual/magical in nature.

The Undead Monk has been called a “master of all dark mystical arts”, achieved immortality through sheer meditation, and is the apprentice to the most powerful mage in the Valiant universe (Darque).

Just to quickly touch on another point: a man named the Jonin was a contemporary of the Undead Monk (making both of them centuries old). The Jonin was responsible for training the Ninja agents who Ninjak (Ninja-K) is descended from. Jonin trained Ninja-D through to Ninja-I in the Undead Monk’s arts. The result of this was that the Ninjas became “the most highly trained operatives in the world”, “human weapons” who can “defy the laws of nature itself.”

And another important point. There were seven students of the Undead Monk, known as the Shadow Seven. They were the most powerful and skilled out of all of his students. Ninjak and the Rogue Fitz clone were two of them.

So all that stuff about controlling every cell in their body? The result of that is that pressure points do not work against an Undead Monk student. Even Ninjak, who can target every nerve ending in the human body, cannot put down an Undead Monk student with pressure points. That means Ninjak himself cannot be put down by these pressure points. This is shown when Ninjak outright states that he cannot put down Ninja-C with pressure points due to his training. Ninjak had to resort to hitting Ninja-C with a stealth jet to put him down, and when he fought the Jonin, he thought that he would need a combination of napalm, explosives and nerve gas to kill him… and that he would probably kill himself in the process if he tried.

So – nerve strikes are not enough to put Ninjak down, and even your buck-standard Undead Monk student.

That does it for pure, technical martial arts skill. I’ll use a quick scale to visualise what I just said in a nutshell:

Ninjak = Ninja Agent / Shadow Seven Member / Undead Monk Student

Ninja Agent (roughly) = Shadow Seven > Undead Monk Student (full control over every cell in their body and knows how to strike every nerve ending in the human body) > Fitz Clone (peak human master of all known weapons and martial arts with hundreds of shared clone memories/experiences).

Or to put it another way:

Ninjak (roughly) = Rogue Clone >>> Five Fitz Clones >>>>> One Fitz Clone.

Total Recall + Superhuman Intelligence

However… it doesn’t end there. Not only did they stretch the limits of the body, but the Monk students stretched the limits of their minds too. This gives them a skill called Total Recall, which I will let Ninjak and the Jonin explain:

“I’ve had more specialized training over the years than any man on earth. I’ve spent days… months… in meditation… travelling the synapses of my mind--making each obscure neuron into a well-worn pathway. A process that allows me to access every piece of knowledge I’ve ever acquired. I can recall every memory… every experience… to visualize a solution within a split second. To say my past experience and interests are useful is an understatement.” -Ninjak

“And as our training progresses, you will learn ways to recall further information you do not even realize you know.” -Jonin

Instant access to any memory, experience or piece of information Ninjak has ever learned. Even those he would have “forgotten” before learning this skill, he would remember, as the Jonin points out. In terms of martial arts, the importance of this cannot be understated: Ninjak can effortlessly access any technique out of a countless number of techniques to fit the situation on the fly, and he can also refer to any similar experiences he has had in the past to help him with his current opponent instantly. In short: his neurons simply fire instantly, there is no delay in his memory, his accumulated knowledge is as readily available to him as the muscle memory he uses to punch and kick.

To illustrate just how brokenly intelligent Ninjak is, I will lay out a few feats.

When we first learned about total recall, it was when Ninjak came up with an ingenious plan to infect an army of alien drones with a contagious virus to shut them all down. The plan itself is not important, but what is important is this: Ninjak accessed six different memories in a split second, to “come up with an idea” using the materials he had on him at the time… and it worked. Despite the memories ranging from 2 months in the past to 10 years, he used them to assemble a complex gadget on the fly – I can’t stress enough that he had no prep for this, he simply remembered six different things at once, and used those memories to invent a gadget out of his standard gear that shut down an army of alien robots. Quote below:

“Livewire… I’ve got an idea. If it works correctly, it should introduce a toxic virus into the drones’ closed system. Once installed, it should drop all of these ugly buggers.”

[...]

Ninjak: “Livewire? Can you hear me? I think I might have inadvertently broken our connection. The drones are down. Repeat, all drones down.”

I mentioned earlier that Ninjak has an “Omega level IQ”. We see that in action in two examples of hacking – yes, as in computer hacking. This doesn’t directly relate to martial arts but it’s another example of how freakishly intelligent Ninjak is. In one feat, Ninjak simply walks up to an alien spacecraft he had no familiarity with, says “Alien tech or not, a locked door is a locked door. They all operate on a similar premise” and hacks into it… and then he finds the “off” button and shuts down the entire ship.

If that wasn’t good enough it gets better… there was the time Ninjak hacked into the “Deadside Intelligence Mechanism” which houses infinite knowledge from multiple universes and realities. It stores all of this knowledge mechanically and “runs on magic and steam” – the important part is, it spits out a unique form of coding language… which Ninjak learns and deciphers on the fly. After learning how to code this way, he programs the Mechanism to shut down a magical spell that shielding Dr. Silk, and also opened a portal to hell. When asked how he did this, Ninjak responded:

“Programming is programming. This is just a very different operating system.”

…except, Dr. Silk, one of the most intelligent super villains in Valiant who created the vastly knowledgeable Fitz clones, said that it took him multiple lifetimes to master using the Deadside Intelligence Mechanism… and Ninjak became fluent in its use in a few minutes tops.

Even normal, basic coding languages take months to learn, and more advanced ones take many years to learn… so when we’re talking about a supernatural coding language used to mechanically store infinite knowledge that takes a super villain multiple lifetimes to learn how to use… yeah, mastering that in a few minutes makes you certifiably, brokenly intelligent.

In terms of on-the-fly problem solving, tactics, situational awareness, using the environment, identifying and exploiting weaknesses… I mean, that is pure child’s play for Ninjak compared to some of the stuff he has done. If his opponent has a flaw, or something advantageous in the environment shows itself, Ninjak is going to find a way to exploit it under one second in the most creative way you can imagine. When I get onto talking about Ninjak’s vast array of gadgets and weapons….then it will become apparent how this total recall high IQ stuff gets out of hand really quickly.

Also… just to quickly round off this bit about mystical training. This has also allowed Ninjak to heal a shattered spine just by meditating, as well as filter out extremely potent poison, gas and other drugs. In a future story that depicts Ninjak at the end of his life, Ninjak is an amputee victim who was caught in a nuclear bomb blast… so he is missing an arm, and he also has cancer from the radiation.

…and through the power of meditation, he lives to well over 100 years old, “strangles” his cancer cells and even telekinetically holds together prosthetic limbs and his sword… yes, Ninjak literally held his body together with his mind. He manifested telekinesis through meditation. The Jonin and Undead Monk have done other broken stuff, but I finally digress…

Feats

For people Ninjak has beaten, let’s start with the time Ninjak defeated an army of Undead Monk students. Yes, you heard me right. The Undead Monk students who as mentioned before make peak human masters of all martial arts look like fodder? Ninjak fought through dozens of them and won, albeit filled with arrows and ready to collapse.

There was another time in the past where off-panel, Ninjak with no gear fought through the Undead Monk’s monastery, killing any students in his way until he reached the Monk himself – on-panel we see a handful of corpses leading up to the monk.

Ninjak has stalemated the Fitz clone as mentioned before (who stomped five of his weaker clones easily), and he has also had two very close fights with Ninja-C, a man with the same training as Ninjak, but who is also in his late 80s, making him highly experienced. Both times the fights started with Ninjak being ambushed. Ninjak also stomped Fakir and La Barbe in hand-to-hand, who are Shadow Seven. More important to note is that Fakir and La Barbe don’t even specialise in hand-to-hand, so for Ninjak to overcome their special talents (e.g La Barbe’s mastery of technology), means that he already beat them at a game more dangerous than just a fist fight.

Speaking of Shadow Seven… Ninjak has consistently outfought Roku, who in addition to being an immortal with an absurd healing factor, superhuman strength and speed, is described as having skills on par with Ninjak to boot. Just to make matters worse, she has psycho-kinetic hair that is sharper enough the shred through metal, and she can control it as easily as she controls any other limb – the hair is also superhumanly strong and can throw people around. The only reason Ninjak can’t defeat her outright is her immortality.

He has also held his own against Roku during times where he didn’t even want to kill or hurt her, meanwhile she was bloodlusted. Ninjak has also held off Ninjas H and G while not wanting to hurt/kill them. Even though they share his training, were intent on killing him and in Ninja-H’s case, had superhuman cybernetic upgrades and enough firepower to destroy small armies/planes, Ninjak held them off until the situation defused. In H’s case Ninjak actually beat him outright.

As another bit-feat, Ninja-K2 (one of the newer Ninja agents who wasn’t trained by the Jonin) was replaced by Ninjak and made to be his backup – put on the shelf basically. K2 went to train with the Jonin so that he could catch up with Ninjak’s skills, yet, even though K2 was much better when he fought Ninjak, he still ended up getting his ass kicked. Which is still a considerable feat, because K2 was the best trained MI6 agent on the planet before being trained by the Jonin, so he’s another buck-standard master of all martial arts, peak human with special mystical training.

Ninjak has also fought individuals/teams who should, on-paper, stomp him, but nonetheless weren’t able to. Take the Jonin for example – his mastery of meditation is such that he is centuries old, is superhumanly strong in the 2 ton range, and can manifest magical powers like channelling his life force into a sword… the Jonin has also fought outright magical, 5-10+ ton monsters in melee combat and done more than held his own… and yet Ninjak fought him to a standstill. The circumstances were that Ninjak had been stabbed, and the Jonin had been electrocuted/poisoned very badly, and he also didn’t plan to kill Ninjak yet… but still, he had no qualms about hurting Ninjak.

Then there is the time Ninjak was ambushed by the Shadow Seven in the tight space of his apartment, and had to fight off Kannon, Fakir, La Barbe and Sanguine simultaneously, all of whom have unique super powers/technology. He lost the fight, but it went on for several pages and he landed hits on all of them.

To round off feats, we’ll look to the most recent win Ninjak got over the Eternal Warrior (who at the time was possessed by someone else). This version of the Eternal Warrior had the “full might” of the original, as well as all of his muscle memory, all of his skills, all of his knowledge and experiences, in addition to superhuman strength, speed, durability, an absurd healing factor and immortality. But unlike the normal Eternal Warrior, he also had no qualms about killing Ninjak – yet, despite ambushing him, Ninjak gutted him after a few pages of fighting. He came back to life and ambushed Ninjak a second time right after, and despite being badly wounded, Ninjak won the second fight.

Oh… and did I mention the Eternal Warrior is a master of over 500 fighting styles, proficient in nearly 2,000 others, and has fought and died in every major conflict in human history? So he has more accumulated knowledge and experience of combat and tactics than anyone else on earth, and he also has the benefit of learning from the mistakes of every death he has ever suffered – which he himself says is invaluable. And yet Ninjak is still consistently shown to be a more skilled hand-to-hand fighter and weapons master.

Durability + Insane Armor

The next major point to touch on is durability, specifically how tough Ninjak’s armor is. Ninjak has consistently taken punches from people in the 2 ton to 10 ton range without a sweat, and has even survived direct strikes from people in the dozens to hundreds of tons strength range. However, these instances are not just flukes, or inconsistent writing – the justification is given that it is not Ninjak’s physical toughness that is helping him, but rather his armor absorbing the damage.

His armor is made up of “Meta materials”, is lined with a “titanium impact resistant cage”, has “Hexweave bulletproof-fireproof fabric”, “Anti-ballistic polymer” and has also been described as “Micro-gage body armor.” Which is a long-winded way of saying that his armor is nuts.

A time where it was pointed out Ninjak’s durability to blunt force is due to his armor was when he was kicked in the chest and through a wall by the Warmonger (a team buster that went around oneshotting everyone, even hundred+ tonners like X-O Manowar). Warmonger taunted Ninjak’s MI6 handler over “caving his chest in”, and Neville responds:

“Yes, well… I’m pretty sure Ninjak’s micro-gage body armor protected him from most of the impact.” -Neville Alcott

So… saying “Ninjak tanking X punch is due to PIS” or “bad writing” or “is inconsistent” – these are not valid excuses. Ninjak’s armor protecting him is no different than Iron Man’s armor protecting him.

People in the 1-2+ ton strength range he has easily tanked hits from include:

  • Jonin
  • Roku
  • Eternal Warrior
  • Anchor

People in the 10 ton or higher range can hurt Ninjak if he doesn’t block the blow properly, which includes:

  • Kannon, who kicked Ninjak through a stone wall so hard the impact of hitting the wall didn’t even stop Ninjak from flying through the air… and even though he was badly hurt after it, Ninjak was still able to capture Kannon by outsmarting him.
  • Quartz, a guy who to cut a long story short is easily 10+ tons, hit Ninjak head on but because the strike was blocked, Ninjak was fine.
  • After being stabbed and blasted by magic, Ninjak was then smashed through the stone wall of an underground base and out the other side of the mountain with a mace by Kostiy the Deathless… and he was still standing long enough to call his stealth jet and escape.

Then most freakishly were the times where:

  • Ninjak using a combination of a vibrating frequency on his sword and holograms, survived a partial bulrush from a bloodlusted X-O Manowar… a guy who can easily lift hundred ton+ submarines out of the depths of the ocean and fly to orbit in seconds.
  • Ninjak was smashed, directly in the spine and into the ground by Malgam, someone so physically strong he can put a beating on X-O Manowar (they have similar powers). Ninjak was down for a while after that but again, smashed in the spine and ran into the ground by a hundred tonner…
  • While not Ninjak himself, Ninja-C was so tough Ninjak resorted to smashing him directly with his stealth jet… Ninjak thought that would break every bone in his body, but Ninja-C survived the impact and escaped in one piece (somehow). If anything, Ninjak has at least better armor than C, and is younger and more resilient with identical training.

In terms of explosive resistance, Ninjak has eaten direct rockets that have blown up small armies/vehicles/planes and shrugged it off, among other kinds of explosives. His armor can resist submachine gun and small revolver/handgun fire fairly easily, and also tank lasers easily. He’s shrugged off electrical attacks, is fireproof, and he even ate an energy-blast from a being who had Godly reality warping powers… who was trying to kill him at the time. So she probably underestimated Ninjak but still… godly reality warping powers… blasted him with intent to kill and he survived. Roku’s hair, which can easily cut through steel, even wrapped around Ninjak’s neck cannot decapitate him due to the armor.

Endurance

Ninjak has consistently outright ignored being run through with swords/claws in his stomach, chest etc. He has ignored being shot. In the future when he is an old man, him and the Eternal Warrior fight for 30 days straight without any rest. There are countless fights I can point to where Ninjak has been beaten, blasted and stabbed repeatedly and can still fight people who have the same level of training as himself, with superhuman stats to boot (Jonin, Roku, the Shadow Seven, other Ninja agents, the Eternal Warrior). Ninjak has also shown, and been stated to have, seemingly limitless tolerance for pain, either physical or emotional. And to round off, nerve strikes, poisons that should kill normal people several times over, enough drugs to “put a herd of elephants to sleep”, seizure-inducing strobe lights/magic blasts, directly burning his eyes, electrical blasts, telepathic attacks from literal gods as well as a good old fashioned physical beating – Ninjak has consistently ignored all of it and kept fighting as if nothing happened.

The only time Ninjak has been slowed down (other than being punched out by some mid-high tier or flash KO’d) is by major blood loss, which makes sense because all the cellular control in the world cannot change the fact that there is no oxygen or nutrients reaching your muscles to make them move – however, until he reaches such a critical condition, there is very little that can slow Ninjak done in a meaningful way. As Christos Gage, the writer of Ninja-K put it:

“he can take a beating that would kill anyone else and keep on fighting." -Christos Gage

Strength and Speed

Strength and speed stuff is very standard for street levellers. Ninjak has consistently fought hand-to-hand and even in some cases overpowered outright superhumans like Roku and Jonin, and has several times punched through metal robots, including those of alien origin. Also worth noting: before finishing his training, Ninjak hit another Undead Monk Student (who was a 7 foot tall+ behemoth) so hard that he died of internal bleeding shortly after the fight… important to note, they have the same training in meditative healing, and right after this fight Ninjak healed from a shattered spine… so whatever internal bleeding he dealt to this guy was so profuse that it couldn’t be healed even when a shattered spine could be using the same technique.

In terms of speed, deflecting handgun/rifle bullets, easily leaping around hordes/rooms of lasers from every direction. He even dodged lasers from the remotely controlled drones of the richest, most intelligent and advanced technologist on the planet (La Barbe) – and considering the fact much of the Ninja tech (from K, H and others) is operated by semi or fully sentient A.I’s, or outright controlled by them, and considering the fact La Barbe’s understanding of technology outclasses Ninjak’s own… dodging three laser drones of his is pretty incredible.

Ninjak has also reacted to stealth/blitz attacks from the Dying One and Ninja-C, has blitzed Undead Monk Students and Fitz clones, blitzed an Armor Hunter which was fast enough to turn and face a currently-moving .50cal bullet, seemed to blitz Ninja-K2, has done the standard ghosting people in plain sight, etc. He also has a statement saying he can snap the necks of five men before they can realise what is happening.

Technology

So… if you just took everything I said above, you have a guy who is freakishly skilled, intelligent and tough for someone with no “superhuman powers.” He is basically the model peak human street leveller, with all kinds of extra “haxx” like total recall, resistance to nerve strikes, broken armor and so on. Someone who consistently punches way above his weight class and wins anyway. That was the “Ninja” part.

Now… what if I told you that the same guy also has contained within his armor, literally, dozens if not hundreds of different ways to lethally or non-lethally end a fight, that he can access on the fly seamlessly when the situation calls for it? That’s the James Bond part. Ninjak almost literally has an answer for every situation he finds himself in, not just through prep, but with his standard gear, which comes off like a bottomless bag of gadgets at times due to the sheer number of different weapons he has used at random times.

And to compliment the sheer variety of gear Ninjak has is his total recall, which again, lets him instantly access every piece of information he has ever taken in. He can access six disparate memories and form a plan based around them in under a second…

So, let’s just lay out all the important technology Ninjak has:

Explosives

  • · A.I directed explosive charges that explode when they know they hit the target
  • · Explosive and incendiary grenades
  • · Other small hand-held explosives that have lit up entire rooftops
  • · An explosive in his boot that he can kick an opponent with, as he did to Roku
  • · Carries around enough explosives to take down an underground base when placed at critical points
  • · Explosive discs made of magnesium, ten times more powerful than nitro-glycerin on the atomic level and only responds to his biometrics (these are the two discs you see on his hips)
  • · C4 corded daggers
  • · Explosive foam
  • · A pen that has C4 (among many other functions)
  • · DNA activated C4 in a knee compartment
  • · Old Ninjak has used DNA seeking explosive drones to kill Fitz clones
  • · And finally… a napalm self destruct belt that Ninjak keeps on the off-chance he is captured or tortured, so he can take his opponent with him (this was what he speculated he might need to use to put down the Jonin)

Hidden blades

Ninjak has many hidden blades in various parts of his armor, which he tends to use at unpredictable parts of the fight to skewer his opponents.

  • · Claws that come out of his finger tips, and are laced with enough poison to “put down a regiment”
  • · Blades that come out of his knuckles
  • · Palm spikes
  • · Heel spikes that are coated with poison
  • · Toe spikes

Gas & Poison

Ninjak, similarly, has several different ways to gas and poison his enemies in a pinch.

  • · Punches and kicks release poison through compartments in the suit
  • · Finger claws are poisoned
  • · Boot-blades are poisoned
  • · Swords can be poisoned
  • · Shuriken have a poison function
  • · Can spray knockout gas from his wrist
  • · Carries gas grenades
  • · Pen has poison
  • · Has various grades of poison needles built into his wrist gauntlet
  • · Old Ninjak had enough nerve gas in watch to put down dozens of fitz clones… inside his watch, make of that what you will.

Acid

  • · Ninjak’s suit can release a blast of corrosive acid on a point-blank target, which he did to counter Roku’s hair – hair which as we know has far more tensile strength than even steel
  • · Acid spray from his gauntlet
  • · Has been seen throwing acid into the Dying One’s face recently

Drugs

  • · Has used an anti-psychotic gas that is absorbed through skin (can presumably do this with other gaseous drugs)
  • · Tranquilisers
  • · Knockout darts
  • · Has injected enough drugs via needle into Sanguine to “put a herd of elephants to sleep”

Blinding / Seizures

  • · Can flash a blinding light from his finger
  • · Mask has a strobe light that blinds, and also induces seizures in 80% of the population
  • · High-intensity halogen micro-flares (little grenades basically) cause blindness and need 24-48 hours recovery

Incendiary

  • · Has used wrist-flamethrower three times
  • · Incendiary darts in wrist

Ninja Stars / Multi-tool

  • · Has a “smart shuriken dispenser” that lets him choose the shuriken he needs at the drop of a hat
  • · Also known as a “multi tool” that has over thirty unique functions
  • · Electric
  • · Shock
  • · Biochemical
  • · Homing – as in, will fly around objects to reach the target
  • · Explosive
  • · Used a shuriken that produced a razor sharp cord that wraps itself around the target and shreds them to pieces

Non-Lethal

  • · Non-lethal normal ninja stars
  • · Flashbang
  • · Tranquiliser
  • · Smoke
  • · Stun
  • Some kind of device that blasts people away

Electric/Shock

  • · Can electrify his suit to electrify opponents weapons
  • · Can electrify suit to shock anyone touching him
  • · Can release electrical AoE blasts from suit
  • · Carries electric spikes

Katanas

  • · Swords are made from Super-Metal, Tri-Silk Alloy Katanas
  • · Can vibrate on supersonic frequency for added strength
  • · Has an X-O Manowar vibration frequency which can incapacitate the hundred tonner X-O Manowar
  • · Are often coated with chemical compounds e.g tranquilisers, poisons
  • · High impact tasers in the hilts
  • · Can be electrified remotely to the point they will “fry a normal man”, as shown when he electrocuted the Jonin when he picked up his sword
  • · Swords can shut down tech by injecting nanobots after stabbing in

Also carries EMP grenades that do not affect his own suit

Invisible / Holograms / Smoke

Ninjak has repeatedly made use of invisibility in conjunction with holograms and smoke screens to escape from or get the jump on his opponents.

  • · Mini photo reflectors – adapt to any environment providing “near invisibility”
  • · Went invisible in plain daylight in front of Malgam, taunting him verbally at the same time
  • · Old Ninjak also went invisible and undetected to Fakir
  • · Used his Hologram belt to throw off X O Manowar’s targeting
  • · Used a convincing hologram to throw Deadside creatures off his trail
  • · Seemed to use a hologram to get behind the Dying One, even though a panel prior he was sitting right in front of him
  • · Used a hologram to easily fool Stalinverse Bloodshot

Has smoke bombed and escped from/hidden from:

  • · Deadside creatures
  • · Jonin
  • · Rooms of normal people all the time

Call in stealth jet

Finally… to round off, Ninjak’s last resort is his stealth jet, which I would count as standard gear, because he brings it every time he goes out. He has also used it twice now in the middle of fights. The first time he used it to smash Ninja-C into the River Thames, and the second time he used it to smash into a group of MI6 agents. The jet is controlled by the computers that are built into Ninjak’s armor… so yeah, if worst comes to worst he can just smash whoever he is fighting with a jet.

Again, everything mentioned above is sourced in the following two threads:

The Ninjak Respect Thread and the Ninjak Related Characters Respect Thread.

Why Ninjak Wins

The reason Ninjak would defeat Bats, IMO, is because in pretty much every way you can compare them, Ninjak is at least as good as Batman, if not better. Ninjak has ways to deal with any advantages Batman does have, because he has consistently punched way above his weight class and won anyway for a variety of reasons. If you compare the ways both of them will try to win, Ninjak, due to a much looser moral code, and more varied and lethal loadout, has more ways to win the fight than Batman, who has very few techniques/gadgets that could plausibly put Ninjak down. You could say Batman could win by eventually punching out Ninjak after like a week of fighting, but again, you could say the same and more for Ninjak himself, so it cancels out.

  • He is just as good as a martial artist on-paper – the typical “master of all martial arts / peak human” statements can be applied to the fodder of Ninjak’s fodder. It’s not even in the same ballpark as what Ninjak can do.
  • Not only has feats against people who are skilled on-paper, but has also fought a plethora of superhuman opponents with just as, if not vastly more experience and similar levels of training to himself (Ninja-C, Jonin, Eternal Warrior).
  • He has dealt with people just as strong, skilled and fast as Batman already – even if you use Batman’s most outlandish strength and speed feats (like kicking through missile proof glass) and ignore his more consistent portrayals, Ninjak has this covered.
  • Is immune to nerve strikes, and pretty much all forms of non-lethal incapacitation like gas, drugs, inducing seizures, tasers and so on.
  • Has taken blunt force beatings from people stronger than Batman and kept fighting like nothing happened – even if you use Batman’s best striking feats.
  • Is virtually immune to pain.
  • Can only really be slowed down by near-fatal levels of blood loss – and Batman tends not to puncture his enemies, and even if he does, there’s no guarantee he will get through Ninjak’s armor which can hold off metal-shredding razors even at theneck, and even if Batman does break through, Ninjak has ignored multiple stab wounds before already. You need to stab him deeply many times, over the course of a long fight before he slows down.
  • Has the huge advantage of total recall, in terms of martial arts, tactics, use of technology, use of the environment, exploiting weaknesses, and just sheer mental processing speeds – Batman’s neurons do not fire as quickly as Ninjak’s. Ninjak being able to access any piece of information he has ever acquired instantaneously is possibly the main reason he wins.
  • Has the advantage of lethal weapons, including hidden poisoned blades in his hands and feet that can spring out when Bats least expects it. Not to mention the fact Ninjak can produce point blank electrical blasts, acid blasts and blunt-force blasts, and electrocute his and his opponent’s gear.
  • Has an extremely varied, unpredictable gear loadout that can be accessed on the fly, to deal with virtually any unique problem that presents itself.
  • In an absolute worst-case scenario, Ninjak can nuke the battlefield with explosives/his self-destructing napalm belt, put on his explosive-proof oversuit, and call in his stealth jet to smash every bone in Batman’s body.

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#19 Posted by AValiantImge (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@juzacloud: heh nah, just some very enhanced humans punching each other through steel doors, throwing cars etc

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#21 Edited by tparks (11656 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be a good fight, but I’d give Batman a solid majority out of 10 based on everything I’ve seen from reboot Ninjak. I haven’t read reboot Ninjak, but I‘ve read classic. I’d say the same thing about classic Ninjak too.

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#22 Posted by Killerwasp (17155 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper said:

Ninja-K is as good as Batman, and he has comparable gear. He's just willing to finish the job.

Change my Mind

I can't cause i back this

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#23 Posted by Renny (3042 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninjak. Batman's equal in terms of fighting, with marginally better gear. More ruthless as has been stated.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5c08073ad6c36 (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Bats by a slight margin. Ninjak needs more feats.

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#25 Posted by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio

@blades24: What feats does Batman possess in an important area that Ninjak lacks?

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#26 Posted by JacenSolo77 (168 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninjak, ILS's case convinced me.

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#27 Posted by deactivated-5c08073ad6c36 (65 posts) - - Show Bio

@blades24: What feats does Batman possess in an important area that Ninjak lacks?

Ninjak needs more skill feats

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#28 Posted by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Gracetrack (4537 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I saw your lengthy post. Thanks a bunch for the rundown.

From what I can tell, Ninjak sounds to me like an amalgam of Batman and James Bond with some ninja tropes thrown in for good measure. Haha! Nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, simply going by your post, he seems like an extremely broken character.

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#30 Posted by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio

@gracetrack: Thanks for the feedback. Yeah he is pretty broken.

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#31 Posted by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Hmm, nice, interesting post. I agree with a few points (and I like how you got the typical “master of all martial arts” stuff out of the way quickly) but some others seem blatantly unsupported...if not completely false when taking into account Batman’s consistent feats and showings. Still, this should but a good fight, but I’l come to prove how Ninjak gets spanked like a red headed step child in a day or two =)

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#32 Posted by Wyldsong (9503 posts) - - Show Bio

I will say...I would have to back Ninjak here. I really think he could take Bat's in this scenario. Hopefully, the votes at least stay moderately close, but @i_like_swords, great defense post for Ninjak there!

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#33 Posted by terry2012 (9612 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

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#34 Posted by AValiantImge (87 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't wanna debate too much but recently Ninjak in Ninja-K issue 14 Ninjak has his jet blown up with him tanking the explosion and fall

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I don't if this add much or anything but its a new feat so I wanted to include it.

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#35 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15501 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#36 Edited by Floopay (10710 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninjak is what would happen if Batman had a mental break and became the new Ra's al Ghul; and redeveloped all his weaponry to be more lethal. So I'm going with him.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#37 Posted by i_like_swords (26029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by k4tzm4n (41707 posts) - - Show Bio

Happy to see the poll isn’t totally lopsided :)

Moderator
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#39 Posted by Renny (3042 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Happy to see the poll isn’t totally lopsided :)

But Batman is winning :(

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#40 Edited by Owie (7059 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd go for Batman in a long, drawn-out fight. I want to state at the start that many of the arguments for Ninjak are very valid, and that normally in any street-level fight I go with Ninjak due to gear (at a minimum). I have read a decent amount of Ninjak but I admit I have not read him in the last yer or two so I may have missed out on evidence that would sway me the other way.

But against Batman, it's a little different. I would say that Batman is stronger with better striking power, and more skilled, and his gear is as good or better. I think Ninjak's main advantage is better armor and agility--which are good advantages to have, to be sure.

If this was Batman from a few years ago, I'd go with Ninjak. But I think Snyder and King have given him feats that take him beyond the reach of other streetlevelers at this point. To make my feelings even more clear, even a little while ago I would argue (and I know I'd probably be in the minority on this) for Elektra beating Batman, at the very least in pure H2H. I'm obviously a strong, longtime Elektra partisan. But now, I'd have to give that fight to Batman (again, even in pure H2H).

His strength and endurance against people like the superhuman Bane that he beat through pure guts and glory in Arkham is absurd. His ability to fix his broken back when imprisoned by Bane is crazy. His fight against the very formidable KGBeast was very impressive. He beat Deadshot and Deathstroke at once. (when they had all been fighting for some time previously). He accurately hit a baseball that Superman was trying his best to throw past him with all the speed he could use without the baseball falling apart. And his gear, like the massive sonic cannons in his chest in All-Star Batman, is hard to beat. Is a lot of this "He's Batman"? Yes, but that's obviously been instilled into canon now. This is obviously a very short rundown. I don't have a chance to check through his recent feats in more detail. But it is a distillation of my overall impression of the Snyder/King Batman, which I view as a juggernaut on the streetlevel tier.

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#41 Posted by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Pre 52 feats only.

OT: Post almost done, only equipment and closing counter argument to go...

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#42 Edited by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, this is a CaV-length post, so if you want to to just read my starting counter-argument/strategy, go ahead, it's much shorter and concise. And @emperorthanos- if this will go in best arguments of this BOTW, just take the counter-argument/strategy bit.

@i_like_swords

Let's tango.

Counter-argument and strategy

Given they start 100 feet apart in a generic city setting, this is the environment Batman is used to and will therefore fight and adapt accordingly. First of all as they engage towards each other Batman will start using his classic batarang tactic to throw a barrage of batarangs around Ninjak for multiple purposes such as the "boomerang" tactic which Batman has used to maximum efficiency by having the batarang keep flying away until later in the fight wherein Ninjak wouldn't be expecting it, or simply having Ninjak deflect the batarangs with his swords in which case tens of thousands of volts electric batarang's could be conducted through the metal to electrocute and throw Ninjak off-balance. After this, Batman engages in h2h, but he won't underestimate Ninjak, as he does usually he'll stay on the defensive until he figures Ninjak out, where afterwards he will use his skill-sets and gear to take Ninjak out. A good montage of this is Batman #608:

No Caption Provided

Batman uses his Cowl HUD to identify a group of attackers' guns, their IDs, past histories, personality, points to hit, and any biological weaknesses to suitably adapt and use the best possible tactical stratagem for every situation, targeting their weak-spots for the maximum possible efficiency. Therefore, Batman will use the same Cowl HUD to see Ninjak's weaponry through his armor, the armor itself and it's weak-spots/the most vulnerable spot, analyze the swords and what materials they're made out of, and just anything worth exploiting. One of the tactics he could use in close-quarters would be using the batarangs as a melee weapon, something further exploited if he opts to use acid/electric/poison/etc batarangs and fight against Ninjak's swordsmanship through that, something he's done that I can cite. At best, given his batarangs have enough slicing power to tear through reinforced metals and Killer Croc's bullet-proof hide, he could just shatter the swords like he did Ra's al ghul in the Chalice...

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Given Ninjak's swords are a main part of his fighting style and lethal edges this should hinder him and the amount of options he can rely on. Whereas the rest of his equipment can be put to use by throwing Ninjak off-balance if not hindering and promptly dropping him. Flash grenades, sonic blasters, smoke bombs, coughing/knockout/blinding gases, ranged projectiles (darts, etc) thrown for the purpose of distraction or misdirection, the likes. He's used a propulsion gadget and grappling cable to success on Red Hood during Batman #641...

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I've went through every possible facet of fighting skill we could possibly go through (see fighting skill section), and Batman seems superior in every relevant area. He's definitely more knowledgeable and his fighting style actually utilizes that knowledge to maximum capability by instantly and effortlessly changing between entire styles and figuring out which exact move to rely on every time, and even without his immense knowledgeable he's adapted to and bested post-Zero Hour Karate Kid, someone with unquestionably far more knowledge than himself, specially and specifically in the zero-gravity arena they fought in, or his other showing of adaptability against Zeiss wherein he won despite Zeiss being much faster and had carefully recorded and analyzed his moves and tactics. What's more, his raw h2h showings are just better, demolishing 15 Man-Bat Commandos with ease and no injuries is much better than solo'ing 30 Undead Monks with injuries all over his body and ready to collapse given the Commandos are certifiably superior fodder that were defeated with ease. Even in 1v1s Batman's feats of demolishing Nightwing, stalemating Lady Shiva, or defeating David Cain handily are certainly better. What's more, Batman has constantly spotted flaws in people's fighting style by "figuring" them out like I say, fighting purely defensively until he sees how his opponent fights. Something Bruce can spot to exploit is Colin's overreliance on technology, something Eternal Warrior put to use to defeat Colin in Books of Death #2....

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So essentially my strategy is to constantly pile the pressure on Ninjak with unexpected manoeuvres and attacks, even simplistic distractions to throw him off-balance, and in-advance prepare and predict Ninjak by using that damn Cowl HUD which should allow him to quickly recognize the tactics he needs to use for every situation. And finally taking him out with precision strikes, better fighting skill, and exploiting his overreliance on technology. I imagine the fight going something like Batman vs. Red Hood in Batman #650 for example (not drawing a comparison between Jason and Ninjak, just the way the fight went), both using their equipment to throw each other off-balance and fighting each other with comparable levels of ability, but Batman simply beating him down in the end (brutalizing him with few hits is an impressive showing of striking power, by the way) because he's just...better.

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Fighting skill

Mostly I won't go through everything section-by-section but I decided to spend an entire section on this as it seems to be the main debating point here which needs quite a bit of addressing. I'm going to spend the most time here.

Combat knowledge

Ninjak is “expertly trained in the use of every weapon and fighting discipline on earth”. He has “mastered countless forms of armed and hand-to-hand martial arts.” So yes, buck-standard master of all martial arts accolade. Despite these movements being embedded into his muscle memory, Ninjak still practices strikes he has done hundreds of thousands of times, sometimes finding it difficult to switch off his battle instincts. The Eternal Warrior has described Ninjak as being among the greatest warriors he has ever known – the Eternal Warrior is an immortal who has participated in every major war in human history, and has also fought countless supernatural threats. Ninjak is an “Nth level master of Ninjutsu” with an “Omega level IQ”. Ninjak has knocked a man out by tapping his vagus nerve. He knows how to target every nerve ending in the human body, and knows how to “make them scream for days” with pressure points. Which he aptly demonstrated the time he caused such pain to a demon that he scared it into returning to hell…What I described above is the tip of the iceberg – this doesn’t even scratch the surface of what Ninjak can do. Just baseline stuff.

And just as well Batman has tons of the exact same accolades, "master of all martial arts, master of all violent aspects of every martial art, master of all fighting styles." whichever way you want to phrase it Batman has it but his best showing of combat knowledge stems from Batman: The Widening Gyre #4 where he aptly stated that he was trained to absolute perfection in every violent art that exists; what's more is even from that specific vantage point he was capable of incap'ing the thug in 463 different ways without as much as drawing blood, which, I don't know about you, is much more impressive than knowing many ways to kill or maim a person given you're dealing the least amount of damage in hundreds of complicated moves, and, again, just from that vantage point, implying he knows much more in other various vantage points...

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That last slice of information is frankly a fully quantified non-hyperbolic and better statement of combat knowledge than anything I've read in DC, Marvel, or Valiant, "master of all fighting styles." still doesn't state how many moves you possess, and obviously Bruce would know far more regarding ways to knockout as that's far easier than incapacitating without drawing blood. However, I don't subscribe to the camp just because you know many more styles and moves you're more skilled to your adversary, characters like Captain America more than prove that wrong. Regardless, having such a wide repertoire of skill-sets makes you that much more adaptable and versatile, I mean Batman effectively showed his ability to instantly change styles and tactics in Shadow of the Bat #0 due to his fighting style that's a fuse of everything he knows...

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This same fighting style has been noted as unique by people like Katanna (who has impressive showings against top-tier martial artists like Lady Shiva) in Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Outsiders, he's even taught League of Assassin Ninjas techniques they've never heard of despite LoA ninjas having mastered all known martial arts similar to the Fitz clones (that is, if we want to draw on fodder showings, which I'd disagree with for a few reasons...) he's used this same wide skill-set to anticipate his opponent's moves simply because he recognizes them, and even if it were that Ninjak has any move or technique Batman doesn't recognize he could easily adapt like how he bested post-Zero Hour Karate Kid in zero gravity despite the fact he was ambushed and had zero experience in this battle turf whereas Val highlighted his knowledge of zero gravity martial arts (his mastery of them is so supreme his prime fighting style is a mixture of his martial arts mastery and anti-gravity flight ring...) in Waid's Brave and the Bold #5....

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Val himself has mastered all forms of fighting styles in the alien-human inhabited Earth of the 30th century ergo including alien martial arts, solo'd dozens of metahuman aliens, and has enough skill against far away physically imposing opponents like Superboy to use the momentum and leverage of their attacks against them, hell he has Midnighter++ level awareness of weak-spots. Frankly, I don't believe he's coming close to mid-tier like people say he does, in fact he's a mid street leveler, but this is obviously a ludicrously impressive feat regardless.

This is the difference between somebody as skilled as Batman possessing that amount of combat-knowledge and fodder with no-established upon worth of their knowledge, I mean all they have is that they mastered all martial arts but they've done nothing to show how they use it. What's more, being as skilled as Batman then utilizing that knowledge in h2h is vastly different from being far less skilled like Fitz clones but possessing tons of knowledge (not as much as Batman though...). And in terms of nerve strikes and pressure points I don't believe anybody here is going to utilize them to effect against each other, they just can't land them, but if possessing the knowledge is any notable there's not a nerve strike Batman doesn't know and he's KOed people as durable as Solomon Grundy with them. Hell, as weird and meme as it is (I'm not planning to use it, trust me), he even knows the <vibrating palm> technique which literally allows him to vibrate his fist to KO, for instance, a Kirgi-trained ninja in Batman #431. Or Lady Shiva's signature Leopard blow that he modified to be non-lethal....

Just to be clear here, I don't believe pure combat knowledge can allow you to best an opponent, but I consider it underrated as well depending on the person using them, as therein they can yield to impressive results in tango with actual relevant hand-to-hand skill. In short, Batman so far is more knowledgeable and adaptable than Ninjak is. Next..

The "Rogue" Fitz clone, Fitz clones, and Undead monks

So basically, from what I understand, Fitz clones are peak-human masters of all martial arts. The Rogue Fitz clone, after training from the Undead Monk master, destroyed five at the same time, and Ninjak fought him evenly in hand-to-hand combat. I understand the gist of the idea, the scaling is definitely sound and this is an unquestionably impressive showing from Ninjak's side, stalemating the Rogue Fitz Clone and destroying 30 Fitz-clone level Undead Monks (albeit with several injuries). But, I actually have exact same kind of scaling for Batman himself.

Let's explain the League of Assassin ninjas's level first. The lowliest of them, the standard ninjas have been stated to be masters of every martial art, been taught techniques from Batman himself, have been trained to resist telepathy with ease, are equipped with swords (powerful enough to slice steel robots in half), shurikens, poisons, and etc. They have feats such as overpowering and bearhugging Tim Drake, and even a few of them genuinely defeated him. The more high-level fodder of the LoA would be the Ninja Man-Bat Commandos, which are the same standard LoA ninjas, except injected with the Man-Bat serum, granting them stats and abilities impressive enough they can fly, are twice the size of a human weighting at 600 pounds, tanked blitzes from Batman's multi tonner "Ro-Bat" drones, have multi-ton level feats themselves, etc. In comparison with the Fitz clones and Undead monks, Ninja Man-Bat Commandos have way better physicals, equal level of skill, equal equipment and extra edge of flight capabilities. So now that their impressiveness is put into perspective, Batman solo'd at least 15 of these same Commandos and was later seen with absolutely no injuries, hell he had a smile on his face, in Batman #664...

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Ninjak managed to defeat 30 Undead Monks sure but he was heavily wounded at the end of the battle despite the Monks being inferior to the Man-Bat Commandos given the Commandos are just as skilled except possess far better physicals and flight, whereas Batman defeated 15 of the Ninja Man-Bat Commandos with ease and with no injuries whatsoever; I don't know about you but this is looking like a way better showing of fighting skill than Ninjak's showing against 30 Undead Monks. In fact, I have a person I can use as a parallel to the Rogue Fitz clone as well, that being the elusive David Cain, husband of Lady Shiva and father of Cassandra Cain. He's mastered all fighting styles and weapons there are in the world, and his showings of fighting skill include stomping Deadshot with both his hands and legs tied, killing and breaking the necks of 20 standard League of Assassin ninjas whilst injured and again having both his hands and legs tied, and one-shotting a younger less experienced version of Shiva who was still skilled enough to ragdoll Bronze Tiger and several other high-level LoA masters moments prior. Frankly, I consider him solidly more skilled than the Fitz clone, and yet Batman still bested him quite handily in Batman #605:

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David managed to hold his own for a page before getting utterly dominated and grounded in few punches to the face alone, of course Cain wasn't being portrayed so low he would get outright stomped but he was shown solidly below Batman's level of skill regardless. In essence, good enough to hold his own for a page against Batman, but not good enough to defeat him. Not even close. And this is not even Bruce's best 1v1 showing. Thus far, I find it hard to believe Ninjak is just as skilled as Batman.

Other 1v1 fights

Well, so far, I’ve shown Batman objectively out-skilling David Cain and Post-Zero Hour Karate Kid, both of whom I would say have better hand to hand feats than Ninjak. Regarding the Karate Kid case specifically, Val was ambushing him, but what’s more; he was at his home turf, the arena wherein he made one unique master fighting style consisting of his martial arts mastery and zero gravity flight ring, whereas Batman had no experience in that kind of battlefield, something explicitly noted, yet he still bested Val before their fight was interrupted. However, Batman does have a lot more feats I'd say are likely superior to Ninjak:

  • vs. Nightwing: In a six page long fight, constantly dances between Nightwing’s attacks, to the point Dick can’t tag him even once, with Robin saying “He can’t land a punch....this is impossible.” but Bruce himself lands few clean punches. The fact that Batman's casual avoidance of Nightwing is constantly highlighted, Nightwing himself admits Batman "nailed him." and Dick was actually on the offensive whereas Bruce was fighting defensively - should make it more than clear that Nightwing is borderline inept regarding speed and skill in comparison to Batman. This is the same Nightwing who has moved at low-level FTE speeds, learned all the arts of combat from Batman even as Robin, defeated Jason Todd after being electrocuted and hit with tranqs and fear toxin, etc. (Batman #600)
  • vs. Philo Zeiss: Zeiss is a private assassin with cybernatically enhanced reflexes, with his eyesight and optical nerves being optimized to the same degree. To this end, he wears a pair of high-tech goggles, which are wired directly to his frontal lobe. The goggles allow him to record and analyze with great detail the movements and tactics of the enemies he faces and to anticipate or emulate those tactics to a degree. The point of this is that he's proven fast enough to literally see Batman in <slow motion> which goes to show the vast speed gap between the two. On top of that, he already recorded and analyzed Batman's moves to figure out the perfect counter. So he had all he could need to defeat Batman - Bruce still beat him, comfortably at that. (Batman #632)

Or stalemating and even gaining an upperhand on Lady Shiva in Batman #427; the same Shiva who is a master of all fighting styles and martial arts, defeated Conner Hawke in a long drawn out fight, one-shotted David Cain while pregnant, and her lesser trained version was ragdolling Bronze Tiger and other high-ranking LoA masters with ease. Or his impressive showing in Morrison's JLA run where he humiliated Prometheus in their rematch despite Prometheus outmatching him in general and having all of Batman's as well as DC's top 30 martial artist's skills installed into his central nervous system, likely due to the facts he analyzed the disk with all the skills to adapt accordingly, and analyzed his previous match wherein he got humbled. Batman has much more, but these are the feats that come to mind at the moment, and I struggle to see Ninjak replicating most of them, even less being more skilled. Now, it's time to go through your own feats, most of which seem to either fall into two categories: borderline irrelevant or lacking context.

and he has also had two very close fights with Ninja-C, a man with the same training as Ninjak, but who is also in his late 80s, making him highly experienced. Both times the fights started with Ninjak being ambushed. Ninjak also stomped Fakir and La Barbe in hand-to-hand, who are Shadow Seven. More important to note is that Fakir and La Barbe don’t even specialise in hand-to-hand, so for Ninjak to overcome their special talents (e.g La Barbe’s mastery of technology), means that he already beat them at a game more dangerous than just a fist fight.

Speaking of Shadow Seven… Ninjak has consistently outfought Roku, who in addition to being an immortal with an absurd healing factor, superhuman strength and speed, is described as having skills on par with Ninjak to boot. Just to make matters worse, she has psycho-kinetic hair that is sharper enough the shred through metal, and she can control it as easily as she controls any other limb – the hair is also superhumanly strong and can throw people around. The only reason Ninjak can’t defeat her outright is her immortality.

He has also held his own against Roku during times where he didn’t even want to kill or hurt her, meanwhile she was bloodlusted. Ninjak has also held off Ninjas H and G while not wanting to hurt/kill them. Even though they share his training, were intent on killing him and in Ninja-H’s case, had superhuman cybernetic upgrades and enough firepower to destroy small armies/planes, Ninjak held them off until the situation defused. In H’s case Ninjak actually beat him outright.

As another bit-feat, Ninja-K2 (one of the newer Ninja agents who wasn’t trained by the Jonin) was replaced by Ninjak and made to be his backup – put on the shelf basically. K2 went to train with the Jonin so that he could catch up with Ninjak’s skills, yet, even though K2 was much better when he fought Ninjak, he still ended up getting his ass kicked. Which is still a considerable feat, because K2 was the best trained MI6 agent on the planet before being trained by the Jonin, so he’s another buck-standard master of all martial arts, peak human with special mystical training.

  • Or instead of baselessly insisting that Ninjak is somehow still equal or superior than his exact equal except more experienced the very plausible explanation of Ninjak possessing far more up-to-date and state of the art technology giving him the edge is much less ambiguous explanation given that fact has been stated on-panel in Ninjak-K #3. What's more is that the first fight was rather inconclusive and had Ninjak blind him with strobing headgear, giving him an edge. Regarding Fakir and Le Barbe you didn't refer to a single feat accomplished by them or how Ninjak beat them which makes it understandably hard for me to assert the impressiveness of the feat and counter accordingly.
  • How "superhuman" are Roku's stats exactly? Specifically her strength and her speed, moreover what is her "fighting style"? I'm not entirely sure if this is true or not but she doesn't ever seem to actively attempt to avoid attacks, but rather take the damage and soak it just because she can, a la Wolverine. Moreover, in general the ways she fights is completely unlike Batman to the point it's actually somewhat difficult to assert the relevance of the feat, i mean I can use a highly depowered virus-weakened Batman defeating an on-venom 10+ tonner Bane in Batman: Europa #4, two-shotting Hawkman in JLA #119, or defeating Hawkgirl just by pressing on her hand with a martial art technique, but they aren't very relevant here.
  • Ninja-G had faked her death to escape MI6 in Ninja-K #4, the issue wherein she recalled her past life, she hadn't fought anybody decades which would make it quite understandable if she would be somewhat out-of-shape against an operative who fights superhumans every day of the week, moreover she was actually attempting to hear him out whilst fighting..I've read her few issues' worth of appearances and she is nigh-featless, her only "feats" aren't very impressive and I don't know why holding your own in a very inconclusive fight for 2 pages against somebody who would only be another "master of all martial arts" (not that i see the evidence for that) is impressive, even less when we don't know how her stats compare to Ninjak...same goes for Ninja-H and Ninja-K2.
  • It's important to note Ninjak only "beat" H through an anti-psychotic gas that helped him see the truth of the matter rather than any focused h2h engagement or anything but otherwise, solid feat to fight H evenly.
  • Frankly, you're taking the Ninja-K2 fight out of context in a very convenient way, this is the full fight from Ninja-K #6. Ninjak literally admitted K2 might very well be his equal in terms of fighting skill, the reason he won was because he was much more experienced - something stated twice in the fight; K2's tricks he learned from Jonin were now old tricks, and whereas K2 only routinely fought terrorist cells and the like, Ninjak constantly saves the world from Annihilation in his work with the Unity squad.

Ninjak has also fought individuals/teams who should, on-paper, stomp him, but nonetheless weren’t able to. Take the Jonin for example – his mastery of meditation is such that he is centuries old, is superhumanly strong in the 2 ton range, and can manifest magical powers like channelling his life force into a sword… the Jonin has also fought outright magical, 5-10+ ton monsters in melee combat and done more than held his own… and yet Ninjak fought him to a standstill. The circumstances were that Ninjak had been stabbed, and the Jonin had been electrocuted/poisoned very badly, and he also didn’t plan to kill Ninjak yet… but still, he had no qualms about hurting Ninjak.

Then there is the time Ninjak was ambushed by the Shadow Seven in the tight space of his apartment, and had to fight off Kannon, Fakir, La Barbe and Sanguine simultaneously, all of whom have unique super powers/technology. He lost the fight, but it went on for several pages and he landed hits on all of them.

Regarding the magical monster the Jonin fought I assume you're referring to Ninja-K #9, then in fact all he had done was hold his own for a page. He literally just smacked it back with his sword than blocked one move (not counting the first surprise attack stab), I mean Batman fought Solomon Grundy (who is in possession of 10-ton level feats) multiple times and flat out stomped him, the most notable instance being Batman: Dark Victory #1. Aside from that Jonin has done nothing but stalemating Ninjak while Ninjak states he's the best he's fought, ergo indicating a superiority to most other opponents you mentioned but that'd be circular logic given we already know Ninjak is that good based on his feats against said opponents.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Batman was stomping Catwoman, the-Axeman, Killer Croc, and Man-Bat in Gotham After Midnight #11, Axeman supposedly has Killer Croc level physicals, Catwoman can weave through machine gunfire and humiliate Tim Drake, Killer Croc no-sells bullets, flips cars, and runs through damn thick concrete walls like tissue paper, Man-Bat no-sells automatic bullets and has casual 3-ton level feats. How impressive are the Shadow Seven in comparison, especially in regards to making up the deficiency in Ninjak losing and Batman demolishing his own group of villains?

To round off feats, we’ll look to the most recent win Ninjak got over the Eternal Warrior (who at the time was possessed by someone else). This version of the Eternal Warrior had the “full might” of the original, as well as all of his muscle memory, all of his skills, all of his knowledge and experiences, in addition to superhuman strength, speed, durability, an absurd healing factor and immortality. But unlike the normal Eternal Warrior, he also had no qualms about killing Ninjak – yet, despite ambushing him, Ninjak gutted him after a few pages of fighting. He came back to life and ambushed Ninjak a second time right after, and despite being badly wounded, Ninjak won the second fight.

Oh… and did I mention the Eternal Warrior is a master of over 500 fighting styles, proficient in nearly 2,000 others, and has fought and died in every major conflict in human history? So he has more accumulated knowledge and experience of combat and tactics than anyone else on earth, and he also has the benefit of learning from the mistakes of every death he has ever suffered – which he himself says is invaluable. And yet Ninjak is still consistently shown to be a more skilled hand-to-hand fighter and weapons master.

Is this Ninja-K #9? Because it's complete bullshit if true, possessed Eternal Warrior was literally stated on panel to not even retain a mere fraction of the original's skill, claiming he retains his full muscle memory and fighting skill is a blatant lie, it's literally right there, I don't know how you could possibly miss it...

She goes to say he's an oaf in comparison to the original, i.e a mere standard brick
She goes to say he's an oaf in comparison to the original, i.e a mere standard brick

Counters

Physicality

First of all, regarding durability I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Simply put, Batman's armor is made out out of new fabrics and materials he built himself with miniaturized equipment installed throughout. Just as well he's took attacks from genuine 50-100+ tonners but unlike you I wouldn't say that that's actually consistent even if the armors is made out of fictional materials given it IS in fact hilariously inconsistent with his normal portrayal of possessing extremely resilient damage soak but still not enough that top-tier peak humans and low-tier enhanced or meta-types can't hurt him. At best, I can buy Ninjak's armor saving him from such impacts but he would definitely be KOed and hospitalized. Someone who got grounded (although not damaged) by a handgun bullet, hurt by blows from Ninja-C, Ninja-K2, Jonin, Kostiy the Deathless smashing him through walls, Sanguine, Roku, etc. Many people not even close to the many dozens of tons to hundreds of tons range have proven more than capable of harming Ninjak through his armor...saying it's a multi-dozen to hundred ton level armor is pretty weird argument in my opinion.

Regardless, I don't believe Ninjak can tank punches from Batman comfortably, even less indefinitely. Most of your feats involve destroying concrete walls which is in all honesty on the lower spectrum of Batman's striking capabilities given that he can, with a backhanded smack, launch Midnight several feet and then through a concrete wall without even hitting it directly..

Gotham After Midnight #6
Gotham After Midnight #6

Like i said, quite low-end. Bruce's real impressive striking feats come from feats such as damaging a bazooka-resistant glass with few blows alone so much that Talia could throw a radio through it in Batman Chronicles #8; the contextual circumstance was that he'd been wounded prior to that, and then while he was hitting the glass a deadly lethal poison gas was slowly choking him out.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
You dismissed this as an outlier but a few things: it's not missile proof, but bazooka resistant. People have told me this is an outlier because rockets can destroy tanks, but i haven't seen anything to support that, even less one-shotting tanks.

Batman more or less hit as hard as a rocket while not even close to his peak, ergo, he's going to be piling the pressure on Ninjak with his punches, and frankly Bruce can brutalize Ninjak with few hits. He has a wide history of doing the same to peak humans and enhanced characters alike, such as Jason Todd, Killer Croc,, Bronze Tiger, or even somebody like Azrael (who can no-sell bullets, multi-story falls and shrug off being thrown dozens of feet through an incredibly thick concrete wall even without his armor) - none of them were able to withstand Batman's punches. I think Batman's feats against Deathstroke show how hard the man can hit though; in Deathstroke #8, after their fight (which Slade won regardless), Slade made note of his injuries and was defeated by an average assassin:

No Caption Provided

Batman only hit him six times over the fight but even then that was enough to beat the shit out of Deathstroke, despite Slade outmatching him in every physical category. He performed another ludicrously impressive showing in Detective Comics #710, where he performed this level of damage on Deathstroke long story short, with only 7 strikes throughout the issue:

No Caption Provided

Deathstroke can no-sell double kicks from wall-buster Cassandra Cain, minigun bullets that shreds tank armor, 20+ story falls, being smacked by 10+ tonners with exploding cars, and the likes. Again, no-sell, these attacks don't even hurt Deathstroke, he barely even notices them. So the fact that Batman can injure him so grievely means that Ninjak will be hard-pressed to roll with his punches and apply his tactics with effiacy, whereas Batman can perfectly tank Ninjak's hits...

After being stabbed and blasted by magic, Ninjak was then smashed through the stone wall of an underground base and out the other side of the mountain with a mace by Kostiy the Deathless… and he was still standing long enough to call his stealth jet and escape.

While not Ninjak himself, Ninja-C was so tough Ninjak resorted to smashing him directly with his stealth jet… Ninjak thought that would break every bone in his body, but Ninja-C survived the impact and escaped in one piece (somehow). If anything, Ninjak has at least better armor than C, and is younger and more resilient with identical training.

  • This feat is impressive, sure we don't know the distance between that wall and out the mountain but even if it's dozens of feet out it's immense, meaning Ninjak ended up brutalized and hospitalized...I don't think Batman can do this with one punch but given that almost killed Ninjak and my goal was never to hurt him so much anyway, I find it hard to believe Ninjak can tank a barrage of punches.
  • How Ninja-C escaped is a mystery but as we have no clue how he escaped even survived it's rather hard to pass it off as a simple durability feat IMO.

Ninjak has consistently outright ignored being run through with swords/claws in his stomach, chest etc. He has ignored being shot. In the future when he is an old man, him and the Eternal Warrior fight for 30 days straight without any rest. There are countless fights I can point to where Ninjak has been beaten, blasted and stabbed repeatedly and can still fight people who have the same level of training as himself, with superhuman stats to boot (Jonin, Roku, the Shadow Seven, other Ninja agents, the Eternal Warrior). Ninjak has also shown, and been stated to have, seemingly limitless tolerance for pain, either physical or emotional. And to round off, nerve strikes, poisons that should kill normal people several times over, enough drugs to “put a herd of elephants to sleep”, seizure-inducing strobe lights/magic blasts, directly burning his eyes, electrical blasts, telepathic attacks from literal gods as well as a good old fashioned physical beating – Ninjak has consistently ignored all of it and kept fighting as if nothing happened.

After being lit on fire and radioactively poisoned Bruce had a shovel stabbed deep through his guts but still overpowered and beat Ra's al ghul who had no such injuries, completely ignored stab-wounds, fought for weeks despite being so exhausted he struggled to walk and even then he accomplished feats any street-leveler would be hard pressed to replicate, fought through having his arm break, get blinded, beaten to snot and then have a walking stick thrown through and out of his guts, kept fighting on after being sleep deprived/starved/dehydrated and having most of his upper body torn apart and bled out, etc.

I can definitely argue for an edge here but this post is already far too long and I'm running out of time. Either way, I think it would be fair to say their endurance, pain tolerance, and willpower are just as equally impressive helping them retain their bodies even after injuries that would kill any other man.

Strength and speed stuff is very standard for street levellers. Ninjak has consistently fought hand-to-hand and even in some cases overpowered outright superhumans like Roku and Jonin, and has several times punched through metal robots, including those of alien origin. Also worth noting: before finishing his training, Ninjak hit another Undead Monk Student (who was a 7 foot tall+ behemoth) so hard that he died of internal bleeding shortly after the fight… important to note, they have the same training in meditative healing, and right after this fight Ninjak healed from a shattered spine… so whatever internal bleeding he dealt to this guy was so profuse that it couldn’t be healed even when a shattered spine could be using the same technique.

Frankly, this is rather poor and more in line with someone like Nightwing than Batman. If Bruce's raw toughness, armor protection, endurance, pain tolerance, and willpower overall allowed him to go from tanking to borderline no-selling falls from skyscrapers, being flown through massively thick concrete walls of buildings, and the likes, then he can take Ninjak's blows comfortably. His constitution has consistently allowed him to take physical blows from superhumans as well, hell in Shadow of the Bat #30 he was practically no-selling Azbat's blows, somebody strong enough to completely tear through large areas of steel and concrete alike.

Speed

In terms of speed, deflecting handgun/rifle bullets, easily leaping around hordes/rooms of lasers from every direction. He even dodged lasers from the remotely controlled drones of the richest, most intelligent and advanced technologist on the planet (La Barbe) – and considering the fact much of the Ninja tech (from K, H and others) is operated by semi or fully sentient A.I’s, or outright controlled by them, and considering the fact La Barbe’s understanding of technology outclasses Ninjak’s own… dodging three laser drones of his is pretty incredible.

Ninjak has also reacted to stealth/blitz attacks from the Dying One and Ninja-C, has blitzed Undead Monk Students and Fitz clones, blitzed an Armor Hunter which was fast enough to turn and face a currently-moving .50cal bullet, seemed to blitz Ninja-K2, has done the standard ghosting people in plain sight, etc. He also has a statement saying he can snap the necks of five men before they can realise what is happening.

Ninjak deflecting sniper bullets with his sword puts him above Batman in reactions, regardless Bruce does possess some genuinely impressive bullet-timing feats, like punching a bullet from a machine gun out of the air, which should easily put him on a comparable level, ergo, he can more than keep up:

Batman Confidential #32
Batman Confidential #32

Whereas Bruce's combat speed is honestly much better than Ninjak's and more than makes up for his reflexes. First of all, you're making a far too casual use of "blitz." merely taking out people before they can react isn't a blitz - that's just standard attack, people tag each other. No, a blitz is travelling a great distance and attack an opponent before he can even react despite there being a distance to pass between two, something Bruce actually did to Ra's al ghul, who is fast enough to cut with his swords at FTE speeds, and deflect batarang projectiles. Detective Comics #838..

Ra's made note of his speed shortly afterwards.
Ra's made note of his speed shortly afterwards.

Batman constantly evading and outmanoeuvreing heat-seeking tracking missiles (at least mach 0.3), dancing around Nightwing's blows for a six page long fight to the point it's exclaimed how Dick can't land one punch, dancing around a person who stalemated Azrael, taking out advanced Sentry turrets before they can do anything, are other immensely impressive feats that come to mind as-well. Even more impressively, in Gotham Knights #28 Batman literally pulls a full 360, snatches the guns out of the hands of a group of gangsters in broad daylight where they couldn't get more proper bead on him, then he somehow appeared on a roof of a building and dropped the guns, while maintaining a conversation between them, before they even realized what the hell happened. This is a top-tier FTE level feat - this is real speed my friend. Ninjak isn't that past.

No Caption Provided

Equipment

Ninjak's equipment is a laundry-list worth of gear, so I'll try and go through this as quick as possible. In essence, Batman already has counters set in place for everything Ninjak has and more. His armor has allowed him to no-sell rockets, explosions, even large-scale building explosions, is insulated enough to no-sell 10,000 volt electrical blasts and even electrical attacks from people with all the electrical output of Gotham city, insulated enough to no-sell flamethrower blasts and massive infernos, the gauntlets can block any sword or blades given they've blocked knives and swords from 10+ tonners and as he's faster and more skilled he can block any of them incoming even if not his endurance allows him to fight through them, contact lenses that have access to the whole electromagnetic spectrum ergo thermal/night vision and the likes make smoke bombs useless, no-sold flashbangs multiple times, cape (which he can easily apply defensively) no-sold lethal acid bathes, etc etc.

In terms of holograms, poisons, gases, EMPs, and hidden blades - Bruce has instantly seen through holograms, made himself immune to most poisons there are and has a variety of showings wherein he completely resisted them with ease, has nose filters to filter out any gases, technology made resistant to EMPs, and his contact lenses allow him to spot any and all hidden blades he has, allowing Bruce to predict them. In short, Batman has faced everything Ninjak possesses, mostly better and more effective versions actually, ergo, they isn't any likely way for Ninjak to put him down using equipment.

No, the effective thing you can argue here is throwing Batman off-balance, which happens to be the main use of equipment most of the time given characters have counters set in-place already. But I think most of his equipment just isn't capable of that - he's no-sold most attacks he has ergo he doesn't have to pay any attention to said attacks.

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#43 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (3017 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes please

CIB's paragraph force strikes again

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#44 Edited by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: I’m crap at being concise. Why I made that starter counter argument section (because I don’t think people would be interested in reading the entirety of another of my novels explaining why Batman is TOAA, lol).

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#45 Edited by Owie (7059 posts) - - Show Bio
@lanternbatman said:

@owie: Pre 52 feats only.

Oh shoot, I didn't notice that. OK then, I may be on Team Ninjak now. Or maybe not. I'll have to read your thing--looks impressive on first scan-through.

I’m crap at being concise. Why I made that starter counter argument section (because I don’t think people would be interested in reading the entirety of another of my novels explaining why Batman is TOAA, lol).

As a fellow writer of books, I say that's just fine!

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#46 Posted by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#47 Posted by JacenSolo77 (168 posts) - - Show Bio

@lanternbatman: Good to see you're making good use of the feats I provided you for David Cain.

:)

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#48 Posted by LanternBatman (406 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: You should wank David Cain more actually. How’s that RT going BTW?

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#49 Posted by JacenSolo77 (168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: You should wank David Cain more actually. How’s that RT going BTW?

Slowly, but I can have it finished if given enough time and energy.

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#50 Posted by JacenSolo77 (168 posts) - - Show Bio

@lanternbatman: In regards to Bruce V Cain though you overlooked some factors. Bruce's stats played a major role, that's why Cain was fighting on relatively even footing with Cassandra yet got destroyed by Bruce despite Cassandra being more skilled than Bruce. As seen in the first couple of pages Cain was on Bruce's level in raw skill, dodging and blocking all of Bruce's hits, with the latter only proving marginally more skilled by tagging him twice which IMMEDIATELY floored Cain and basically finished him. Cain is Bruce/Cassandra level in skill but Bruce bodies him through stats. He performed as a relative peer in skill with Bruce holding a marginal edge and only finishing him quickly due to his strength being too much for Cain's durability, in skill Bruce's edge was marginal.