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#1 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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A battle between street levelers this week as Moon Knight takes on Black Widow

Rules

  • 616 versions for both characters
  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

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#3 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15580 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm backing Moon Knight.

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#5 Posted by XxdeathmakerxX (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon knight has a slight edge IMO

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#6 Posted by Rockette (5236 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha uses her Widow's Bite, stunning Mark, then shoots him to death... until he DIES!

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#7 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17148 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Marc

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#10 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17148 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Widow

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#13 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17148 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Night wins this. I'm not the most knowledgeable on Moon Knight or BW's feats (I mostly gloss over their feats and I don't follow them intently) but from what I know Marc has better gear, is stronger, more brutal and just as fast. Really the only thing advantage I see BW having is agility but not by a lot.

Don't get me wrong, BW is an underrated beast and will give MK a good fight but bullets just won't do anything to him as he is a bullet timer who has incredible pain tolerance. So she isn't tagging him at a distance and I doubt that she would be able to beat him in CQC ad he has taken down more skilled opponents than her, like Deadpool.

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#15 Edited by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by decaf_wizard (16634 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Pipxeroth (8965 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Knight wrecks. Stronger, faster, more durable, more skilled. Natasha's pain tolerance is so bad that she passed out from Daredevil twisting her ankle, which is definitely not the best trait against someone like Moon Knight who not only fights very brutally but also commonly uses pressure points.

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#18 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42612 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow

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#19 Posted by depinhom (13506 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Knight

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#20 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Going to have to go with Moon Knight on this one. I think that while Black Widow is most likely more skilled or at least on paper, she will have an extremely hard time putting Moon Knight down. The guy can take a lot. They should also have at least comparable speed, but with Marc having the edge in strength. I don't know their mutual gear all that well, so I'll just call it equal in that regard. As far as mindsets, I don't see this as much of a factor as they both should be willing to do whatever it takes to win AFAIK. All in all, I have to give it to MK in a good fight.

@valor_175: You have any thoughts on this?

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#21 Posted by Helloman (26665 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Knight wins.

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#22 Posted by mrmonster (13557 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon Knight

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#23 Posted by ValorKnight (11077 posts) - - Show Bio

Going to have to go with Moon Knight on this one. I think that while Black Widow is most likely more skilled or at least on paper, she will have an extremely hard time putting Moon Knight down. The guy can take a lot. They should also have at least comparable speed, but with Marc having the edge in strength. I don't know their mutual gear all that well, so I'll just call it equal in that regard. As far as mindsets, I don't see this as much of a factor as they both should be willing to do whatever it takes to win AFAIK. All in all, I have to give it to MK in a good fight.

@valor_175: You have any thoughts on this?

My opinion is pretty identical to Pipxeroth's:

Moon Knight wrecks. Stronger, faster, more durable, more skilled. Natasha's pain tolerance is so bad that she passed out from Daredevil twisting her ankle, which is definitely not the best trait against someone like Moon Knight who not only fights very brutally but also commonly uses pressure points.

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#24 Posted by Owie (7100 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, I have argued this multiple times in the past, so I am very much looking forward to going into detail here. I am a fan of both characters, and under various conditions, either one could win, or have it be a close battle.

But for just a very quick initial post, Black Widow wins under these conditions. Her standard gear is just better than Moon Knight's current standard gear. Fellow Moon Knight fans, I'm sorry to say that his current armor just doesn't do much to protect against Black Widow's Bite, which she can control the intensity of, and can certainly put it high enough to KO him either by a blast or by touch, while he doesn't have a counter auto-KO attack.

I will go into detail on their opposing gear and combat abilities later.

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#25 Posted by slimj87d (15629 posts) - - Show Bio

Can go either way. Nat's last fight with Punisher was pretty impressive.

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#26 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#27 Posted by Owie (7100 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, Moon Knight vs Black Widow:

On a purely H2H level, I’d probably take Moon Knight by a very small amount. But with gear, she wins, for sure.

Breakdown:

Strength and striking power: He’s stronger, even without moon powers as he is here. But, not by drastically huge amounts. He is capable of throwing someone through a windshield, for instance, or fighting three bodybuilders. It's hard to judge his baseline strength without his powers, because most of his best strength feats are with his powers, and he doesn't have them here.

Natasha has ripped off a robot’s arm, held onto a guy with one arm, and held on to a piece of wood while resisting an enormous amount of water pressure from a waterfall. Bucky has also commented on her strength. I used to think her strength was enhanced by the Soviet Super Soldier Serum she took, but the more I look into it, the more I think it just enhanced her agility and speed, and retarded her aging. She still has nice striking power though. Here she punches Spidey hard enough to take him out of the fight (he had not been hit before this). Here she fights Kraven with Daredevil, then after DD is KOd, and she is weakened by gas, she KOs Kraven.

Speed, agility and dodging: They are both very agile, and both have great dodging. He has had great gymnastic feats like this, this, and this, but honestly in the last couple volumes he hasn’t really used his agility much, he’s been more grounded a fighter. Still, his 2014 volume did have him cutting a bullet in half. This is pretty awesome, but I also haven’t seen it back up by much at that level, so I am inclined to take it with a grain of salt. There are more normal examples of speed though, for instance he vanished from a roof and ended up on the ground very quickly. He has dodged a lot of bullets too, as we can see here and here, and he has blocked shots with his gauntlets and crescents, and can catch an arrow. So he is fast; bullet cutting speed is above his normal levels though.

However, she is also extremely fast, agile, and great at dodging. For instance, when she was seriously injured from major surgery, she stalemated Elektra who cut a bullet in the same fight. So she clearly has the ability to hang with people who can cut bullets. Gymnastic ability is one of Natasha’s defining characteristics, it's innate to how she fights (one, two). We can see that in her general flipping around , but also in her own machine gun dodging (one, two, three, four). Here she reacts and throws a Spidey that’s trying to sneak up on her, even with his Spidey sense. Check out her jumping out of a helicarrier (here's Marc falling out of a plane) for a great example of her graceful agility.

So basically they are both machine gun bullet dodgers; but if I were to compare every Moon Knight dodging scan I have with every Black Widow machine gun dodging scan I have, I’d say hers were better—you just get the sense that she’s really tracking every bullet and dodging them individually more than Marc is--especially recently.

Durability: This is the category where Marc is supposed to reign. Everyone knows he’s a pain tolerance/durability king. And sure, he has great stuff, like this. But Widow is also pretty good at this. In terms of pain tolerance, here she stays perfectly still during major abdominal surgery without anesthetic (one, two). Her blunt durability can be seen in her being hit by the very superhuman Black Dwarf and not being very hurt; by being hit by a superhuman golem capable of caving in a wall and being OK; and some long falls where she was OK.

So she has some weak moments with a broken ankle and whatever. Moon Knight has low points too. Here’s classic Moon Knight getting knocked out by two not-otherwise-impressive ladies. Here’s modern Moon Knight getting beaten up by random guards (granted he's not fighting back, and had gone through an explosion before--but point being, he's not indestructible). Moon Knight’s durability is not so magic that he’s out of range of Black Widow.

Skill and nerve strikes: They’re both skilled fighters with lots of experience. They both use nerve strikes and attack vulnerable points like the eyes and neck. I’d say that Natasha is slightly more likely to use nerve/vulnerable strikes, which could bypass Marc’s durability. I also feel she’s the more skilled one, but that’s based more on impressions than provable evidence.

Weapons skill and accuracy: Marc is amazingly accurate with his crescents. To give just a couple examples, here, here, and here. And he is also good with a bow: here he splits an arrow and hits two targets.

But Nat is also a great shot—here are three examples in a row of her shooting thin strings (while riding on a motorcycle, from a distance, and Hawkeye’s bow string); here Daredevil calls her one of the three best shots he knows (the others being Bullseye and Punisher); here’s an example where she spits precisely to get a guy to drop a hypodermic needle to fall in such a way that she can pick a lock. In this example she shoots a gun out of a guy's hands while flipping around.

Willingness to kill: They’re both perfectly willing to kill or maim under the right circumstances. Marc is famous for cutting Bushmaster’s face off, and regularly throws darts into people and tortures and kills various bad guy flunkies. Natasha still regularly kills in the role of duty and has been willing to maim and torture for a job even recently, and threatened to shoot Punisher (who had just helped her) to move herself ahead on a job. In this battle thread, neither would kill, but they’d be willing to put a hurt on the other if needed.

Fights: Moon Knight has beaten Deadpool, and he beat Taskmaster (if mostly due to intimidation, not direct combat). He beat Black Knight due to strategy. His main bad guy, Bushmaster, is pretty tough but he never fights anyone but Moon Knight so he’s hard to measure. He has fought enhanced characters like Werewolf by Night. He fought Bullseye twice, once basically running from him and the other time more or less stalemating him. He beat Swordsman, but was unable to beat Zaran on his own. He basically stalemated Punisher. He fought well against Daredevil when Daredevil’s radar sense was clogged by noise. He beat Shroud. Moon Knight’s fights are hard to compare from one era to another, however, since he constantly changes his moon power levels and gear—for instance he was powered and highly-geared-up when he fought very well against a bunch of Infinity Crusade doppelgangers (part 1 and part 2).

Black Widow has stalemated Elektra while already hurt, beaten Crossbones, beaten Hydra Punisher (and tied Punisher once, and beat him again although this time with help). Here she is against Silver Samurai, who I think would drop Marc, showing extensive dodging abilities; this is SS vs Spidey just before. She also beat the superhuman Imus Champion. She lost to Bullseye in service of the plot. She easily beat Mockingbird. She has also done well in match-ups with Bucky (1, 2, although beaten here), although usually with context. She has about an even track record (fights 1, 2, 3) against Lady Bullseye, who I think would be about even with Marc as well.

All in all, the above makes them out to be pretty even. Then we get to gear:

Marc: armor covering some select parts of his body. We fans have often described it as potentially carbonadium, but you can see here that some dogs not only tear the black parts, which are just cloth, but also destroy parts of the plate armor as well.

His crescents are unfortunately small and not that effective in causing real damage to the body. His best moves are to use them in the eyes, and in the foot or hands. However, he’s unlikely to try to blind another hero in a normal fight. They are best used to disarm; he could use them on her guns, and could try to use them on her gauntlets, but he’d have to get the correct cylinder, since each one does a different thing, and that would be a challenge to figure out.

His truncheon, which is a solid blunt force weapon, also works as a grappling hook.

Altogether--cool, but nothing particularly amazing. His current gear is way, way below his old days of full coverage adamantium armor, explosive arrows, or electrified nunchucks; he doesn’t even use his wire-crescent gun any more.

He also sometimes uses drones and stuff, but that is clearly only in particular adventures and wouldn’t be standard gear.

Black Widow: clothes that are supposedly bulletproof/resistant, although that never seems to be the case.

Guns: she usually carries a pistol or two.

Knives: she usually carries a knife or two.

Belt bombs: she carries a number of bombs, either as disks or in more classic grenade form. These bombs include explosives, flash bombs, and various gasses, including smoke, tear, and a gas that makes you blind and drunk-feeling.

Gauntlets:

• It has a grappling hook like Marc, but while he uses his as a direct impact weapon, she uses hers to tie people up to incap, to disarm, and also as a garrote.

•They also shoot darts, like his crescents.

•She can also shoot gas from them, including a 24-hour knockout gas, and the gasses she has in bomb form.

•But most popularly, she has her Bite. She can regulate the amount; it normally is 30,000 volts, or enough to kill 10 men. She used it here to knock out Captain America—whose durability is surely equal to Moon Knight’s. She has also used it to destroy giant armor suits (which otherwise required four repeat shots from Punisher’s van-mounted minigun), blown through Ivan’s highly armored robot suit, and destroyed handguns repeatedly. So it is not even arguable that Marc could survive its top output, regardless of his durability. But she can also lower it to whatever degree is enough to simply stun Marc. She can use this from a distance, as she often does. But she can also shoot it from point blank range, and, like in the movies, she can do it by touch.

Strategy

Basically Nat just needs to tag him with a Bite. Either she hits him from a distance, or she engages in H2H combat, which inevitably will result in either her punching him, thus releasing a KO-able Bite, or they clash arms in block/punches, which will have the same result. Basically any point where she touches him with her hands, or he touches her forearm, or she just manages to point her hand at him from close range, and she knocks him out with the Bite. There’s just no way around it.

Now you could argue, why doesn’t she do this to major characters more often? The answer obviously is, because that would quickly end the fight and be boring. In her fight with Hydra Punisher she used it but missed, and then inexplicably didn't use it in every strike after that that did hit. Except it's not inexplicable, because if she used it she'd win. So she just constantly does it to non-major characters in the comics. But in battle forum conditions, she’d fight to her best ability, which means using her obvious weapon for a quick KO.

As I said above, his best bet is to use the crescents to disable her gauntlets' Bite, but he has to get the right cylinders, and he also has to hit her in the first place—great accuracy doesn’t always help against a great dodger. But he may take a couple wins this way.

Long story short, they're pretty evenly matched in everything except gear, where she has him completely outmatched with guns, bombs, gas, and especially her pretty much auto-win Bite.

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#28 Posted by Batman3000 (5636 posts) - - Show Bio

MK more often than not.

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#29 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Ultimate_Knight (10815 posts) - - Show Bio

Well based on what I have read, I am giving my vote to Black Widow.

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#31 Posted by shirso (3418 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by boschePG (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: I dont know how Natasha sting gets past Marc's armor. Thats how Marc wins alot of the street battles.

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#33 Edited by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow

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#34 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso said:

@emperorthanos: Why are there never any manga characters on BoTW?

Not too sure. I'm trying to change that though.

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#35 Posted by Ultimate_Knight (10815 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso said:

@emperorthanos: Why are there never any manga characters on BoTW?

I guess some people would flip out because the site is called "Comic" vine.

Some people seem to be complaining about it here

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#36 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimate_knight: I know. But look at the number of comments on this thread. I feel if I had someone like Meliodas or Naruto involved this thread would be alot more active. Obviously that would be the same if we used popular comic characters like Superman, Thor etc. but there are only so many BOTW you can have with them

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#37 Posted by shirso (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimate_knight: Well we have already has a live action BoTW, so I don't see the issue in having manga characters which are really comics in a different language.

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#38 Posted by Ultimate_Knight (10815 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope I did not just derail thread with what I said, but if this goes further, we try and discuss somewhere else if you want....

@ultimate_knight: I know. But look at the number of comments on this thread. I feel if I had someone like Meliodas or Naruto involved this thread would be alot more active. Obviously that would be the same if we used popular comic characters like Superman, Thor etc. but there are only so many BOTW you can have with them

And some people complain about things getting stale when they are the ones who feel comfortable participating in repetitive discussions. When something new is given, no reply.

@shirso said:

@ultimate_knight: Well we have already has a live action BoTW, so I don't see the issue in having manga characters which are really comics in a different language.

A live action character based on a comic or standalone? If the latter, I see no reason for others to shame on people making fights not about comic book characters.

I assume because many think every manga character is too powerful, when in fact, some comic book characters here are guilty of the same thing based on how some users talk about them.

I think majority of manga has given itself the illusion of having overpowered characters due to statements, very flashy and huge scale art style than most western comics lack, and the whole "breaking limits" thing I seem to see sometimes which make a character kind of unpredictable and subjective on how strong they can get.

Battle heavy anime/manga seem to be the one getting spotlight, and those ones tend to have mid tier to high tier people. Though I know of street-level characters in anime/manga, the series they belong to do not seem to emphasize on fights much.

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#39 Posted by Owie (7100 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg said:

@valor_175: I dont know how Natasha sting gets past Marc's armor. Thats how Marc wins alot of the street battles.

I just want to point out that while that would be a factor with different suits of armor, in this battle he has his current armor, which only has plates in a few parts of his body, the black seemingly being pretty thin material, and even the plates not being that strong (see here for an example of how both the black parts and the plates can be damaged by dogs). She should have no problem targeting the extensive non-plated parts, and even the plated parts may not be protective enough in this iteration.

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#40 Posted by boschePG (6201 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: wow Owie is back. your explanation makes sense and thanks for the link. Since you are an OG poster, could you look at this one

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#41 Posted by ANTHP2000 (23866 posts) - - Show Bio

Black, Black, Black.... Widow any day!

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#42 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

What Owie said. He's smart.

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#43 Posted by Sy8000 (34783 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you could make a strong argument for Black Widow winning based on feats she does have, but I also think Marc might have better showings on average.

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#44 Posted by Owie (7100 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg said:

@owie: wow Owie is back. your explanation makes sense and thanks for the link. Since you are an OG poster, could you look at this one

Ha, I've continued to be around but I am posting maybe a little less than usual at the moment. Getting ready for some cosplay at NYCC and it is taking all my time. I'll see if I can take a look at your battle in a few days.

@tparks said:

What Owie said. He's smart.

Thanks. :)

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#45 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42612 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#46 Posted by Zemoftw (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon knight after a decent fight