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Posted by emperorthanos- (16386 posts) 4 months, 5 days ago

Poll: Battle of the Week: MCU Daredevil vs CW Arrow (54 votes)

MCU Daredevil 39%
CW Arrow 54%
Too close to call 7%

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With Daredevil being canceled by Netflix and will likely no be seen in LA for another year, we decided to have the Man Without Fear in this weeks battle. And his opponent is none other than CW Arrow. We know this is a battle that has been done on numerous occasions, we have tried to change it a little so please be sure the read the rules.

Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear. Prime DD with Red Suit, Current Arrow with standard gear.
  • The fight takes place in an abandoned factory. Fighters start at opposite sides of the building out of sight of their opponents.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the votes aren't going how they should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Sunday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Sunday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads.

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#2 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11724 posts) - - Show Bio

inb4eitherstomps

OT: Will decide in a bit.

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#3 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know why you wouldn't make it h2h. Much closer that way. Oliver wins either way.

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

I don't know why you wouldn't make it h2h. Much closer that way. Oliver wins either way.

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#6 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16519 posts) - - Show Bio
@rbt said:

I don't know why you wouldn't make it h2h. Much closer that way. Oliver wins either way.

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#7 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt

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#8 Posted by Owie (7175 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to think about this a bit. Anyone want to sum up Green Arrow's trick arrows these days? I haven't watched the last couple seasons.

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#9 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6619 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver should win this pretty comfortably, at least IMO.

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#10 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver wins, better reaction speed being a bullet timer, on par physicals having taken explosions and hits from enhanced opponents and more skill, having fought the likes of Ra's al Ghul. This would mean Arrow would win in CQC, but he could take him out even before they get to that stage, as Oliver has the accuracy and quickdraw feats.

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#11 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the combatants start out of sight and Oliver prefers using stealth, he'd go in stealth mode and try to snipe Matt. That's not going to work because of Matt's radar senses. He will either hear Oliver sneaking up on him, or will just catch the arrow Oliver shoots at him as he has done in the past. Point is, Oliver isn't sniping Matt in the back of his head and walking away. As for Matt sneaking up on Oliver, chances of that happening is extremely slim. Oliver was able to hear the sound of a gun's hammer stretching from 20m away, while he was mid-conversation and was in a room which was masking the sound. He was able to turn at the exact moment to catch an arrow that Talia shot at him without warning. He was able to simply dodge an arrow with his back turned. He was able to catch a surprise attack by Laurel while he was mid practicing on a dummy. He was able to hear Merlyn sneak up on him, someone who could sneak up on him just fine in S1.

Laurel- "You really do have eyes in the back of your head."

Neither of them is doing much stealth wise. This will come down to a straight fight where Oliver has all the advantages.

Oliver's gear is far more suited for range than Matt's. While Matt is an arrow timer, he hasn't faced someone like Oliver. Not only Oliver has insane draw speed and fire rate,

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Matt has also never dealt with this kind of speed. And while Matt is an arrow timer, Oliver has a very good track record when it comes to tagging arrow timers. Bronze Tiger was fast enough to cut multiple arrows from point blank range. And yet, Oliver ultimately tagged him. Lady Cop could do the same. Oliver tagged her. Nyssa who can do elaborate moves before catching an arrow; Oliver tagged her as well. And it's not just Oliver spamming arrows and hoping one would stick. He actually knows which arrow is going to hit. As Oliver did with Ben. He shot a few regular arrows at Ben, which got deflected, and the moment Oliver saw an opening, he shot a taser arrow instead of a regular arrow, effectively beating Turner. A rope or bola arrow, and Matt is done. Point is, Oliver can tag Matt, despite him being an arrow timer. As he has done with multiple arrow timers like Turner, Nyssa, and others.

But lets assume that Matt does manage to somehow close in the gap without getting tagged. Now comes the cqc. Again, Oliver has all the advantages.

Matt's best skill showing to the date is outskilling Elektra by a fair margin. Its impressive because Elektra could cut down 10 Hand ninjas while surrounded. Nyssa could do the same to 6 LoA ninjas. Now, I'd argue that, since LoA ninjas have far better skill showings than MCU Hand ninjas as well as statements boasting their skill(the claim that they make special forces look like Kindergarten something they proved when a random, nameless LoA ninja fodderized Lyla, someone capable of fodderizing Ghosts), 6 LoA ninjas might be as dangerous as 10 Hand ninjas. If not more. But for simplicity sake, lets assume that a LoA fodder is same as a Hand fodder. Even then, Oliver scales to a higher level than Matt. Nyssa was stomped multiple times by Merlyn and Oliver stomped Merlyn. In layman's term-

Matt>>Elektra>>10 ninjas.

Oliver>>Merlyn>>Nyssa>>6 ninjas.

Again, this is under the assumption that a LoA ninja is the same as a hand ninja, which clearly isn't the case. So, Oliver is definitely more skilled than Matt.

However, that's not the only advantage Oliver has. Speed. While both of them are arrow timers, Oliver has far better feats than just arrow timing. His draw speed feat, where he takes an arrow out of his quiver, nocks it, aims it and shoots it with perfect accuracy; all before a grenade for a grenade launcher could move 10-15ft. His rapid-fire feat I posted. Oliver moving at almost normal human speed in an extremely slowed down scenario-

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All of these are beyond Matt's capabilities. Oliver is faster.

As for strength, Oliver has snapped chains with utmost ease. He snapped a handcuff holding Huntress, was able to snap a chain tied around a hostage and was able to snap a padlock with utmost ease. None of the things I see Matt replicating going by his current showings. Same with striking. Oliver was able to kick a guy through a tile wall. He was able to kick open a door secured by chains. Oliver is stronger as well as hits harder.

Now while Oliver is better in skill, speed and strength/striking, the gap isn't necessary wide. Infact, Matt is just lagging behind in those. But if there is one field where Oliver leaves Matt behind in dust, by a big margin, its durability. Oliver has taken hits from Mirakuru users, Khusu idol users, Dominators and have lived to tell about it. He was ragdolled through solid concrete by Darhk and wasn't even knocked out. Instead, he got back up in a few seconds, only to be blasted again. And again. And yet, after taking all that punishment, he was able to punch down an enhanced like Darhk, in what essentially was a punching contest. Oliver is a lot more durable.

TLDR- There really is no conceivable way Matt is winning this. Oliver has far better gear for range. He has a very good chance of taking Matt down before he closes in as he has done with Turner and Nyssa. Even if Matt does close in and this becomes cqc, Oliver is stronger, faster, more skilled, hits harder and is more durable. This simply isn't Matt's fight to win. He'd put up a fight, but Oliver will never be in danger of losing this.

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#12 Posted by jayskee (4843 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil

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#13 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

This could go either way. If Matt manages to close the gap and get in close quickly then he should win more often than not.

Oliver should win, if he can utilize his gear advantage effectively. Depending on the starting distance, environment and morals.

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#14 Edited by rogueshadow (29265 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna give this to Oliver, he's just got more going for him. Right off the bat, his ranged equipment is drastically superior in power and versatility due to his trick-arrows. Given that it's a random encounter, the total unpredictability of the trick-arrows due to Matt's lack of knowledge must also be considered. He might sense there is something different about them due to his senses, but I highly doubt he can pinpoint the exact characteristics of them.

In the event that Matt takes it to melee range (Matt's senses/stealth along with his billy clubs and arrow-timing speed could well prove enough to break that gap), Oliver's own skill coupled with his stats are still enough to give him the win, he can bypass the durability of the suit eventually. And even if Matt were to prove superior in melee, it's going to take a great deal of punishment to drop Oliver. If he's feeling overwhelmed, I think Oliver can break free and drop back if necessary, reclaiming his range advantage, taking the fight with his trick arrows.

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#15 Posted by AngelJax (11657 posts) - - Show Bio

Green Arrow

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#16 Posted by jashro44 (52463 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt should win. He's a better fighter (he out skilled black sky and beat up danny who is also a better fighter than Oliver), and Oliver is not smart enough to utilize his gear advantage.

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#17 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26954 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah CV's favourite LA fighters. If only there was Cap here too. Eh, anyway.

I honestly can't think of anything Matt is as good as, let alone better than, Queen in. I don't think this is close at all either, geared up, someone of Oliver's tech and skill with it can litteraly treat Matt and his sticks like cannon fodder. Will be cool seeing the posts here though.

X

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#18 Edited by the_wspanialy (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver would win but it would be good and entertaining fight. Lol at either of them stomping.

Physicaly Oliver has almost every advantage possible. He's stronger and faster than Matt, though admittedly they are pretty close in those categories. Matt is more agile and employs his agility more often and more effectively, however Oliver is not far behind in this category (see his fights with Konstantin Covar or more recently with Stardust). In terms of durability however Oliver has more than significant advantage. He took multiple hits from Deathstroke, bloodlusted Flash, magic-enhanced Damien Darhk, Vandal Savage and many others blatantly superhuman opponents.

In terms of fightning skills, Oliver is again better, both in terms of quantity and consistency. Matt's best feats in that regards are outskilling Black Sky (who is literally a walking inconsitency) and held his own against Bakuto and Murakami. Also, when you really think about it, this last feat... doesn't really make sense. Just a season earlier, Matt has been struggling against Nobu, someone who logically shouldn't be above Murakami. Matt has explicitly stated he dropped being Daredevil at the end of season 2 and that during the time gap between season 2 and Defenders he was pursuing his lawyer carrier. And suddenly he jumps from being hard pressured by Nobu to holding his own against two opponnents who should be superior to Nobu? By contrast season 4 Oliver fodderized Malcolm Merlyn (who in terms of feats, scalling and consistency makes Bakuto and Murakami look like sad jokes) and briefly fought Vandal Savage (an opponnent superior to Black Sky) even managing to disarm him (despite being a mental wreck during this fight).

Equipment is really no brainer. Their armors might be comparable in terms of provided defense, but Oliver trumps Matt in terms of veratility.

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#19 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Solid work, one of your best posts on CV imo.

Oliver takes this solidly still.

@jayskee said:

Daredevil

Matt

This could go either way. If Matt manages to close the gap and get in close quickly then he should win more often than not.

Oliver should win, if he can utilize his gear advantage effectively. Depending on the starting distance, environment and morals.

Eh, no.

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#20 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7348 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver seems more skilled than Matt plus Matt will have no idea about trick arrows

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#21 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by thehunter (3399 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver recently took out Bronze Tiger like cannon fodder with other prisoners whilst not in perfect condition, same Bronze Tiger who could pretty much easily defeat someone of Stardust’s level.

At this point, I think Oliver is definitely above Matt in h2h, and the distinction between the two is something I would not consider marginal either. His gear ensures him the win.

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#23 Posted by SuperVision123 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Matt can win, but it will be a hell of a fight.

With lots of cover, Matt's reactions and radar sense, he should be able to close the distance just fine. Oliver might even avoid shooting arrows and go straight for cqc, as he often does. The fight will most likely go to H2H.

I actually consider Matt's showing against Bakuto and Murakami to be more impressive than his feat against Black Sky. Not only is it extremely difficult to take on 2 skilled opponents at the same time, but Murakami is also a total beast, being able to wreck Jessica Jones in seconds and fight Luke Cage. Bakuto scales from Danny, who could also beat Murakami. Having the upper hand against both of these opponents at once is a ridiculous feat.

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#24 Posted by DeutschKurzhaar (1429 posts) - - Show Bio

If its strictly h2h, Matt wins 8/10 times. He's wayyy too fast and skilled. If Arrow gets his bow then he probably takes it, 5/10 times, depending on how far away they start. if Matt gets up close its over. Lol at all the people who actually think Oliver is on Matts level in h2h.

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#25 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43153 posts) - - Show Bio

Arrow is better in most ways and inferior in none.

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#26 Posted by Amcu (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver. His gear advantage is quite notable and even in H2H he's better due to superior physicsls.

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#27 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5431 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver. Gear is a huge advantage and if Matt manages to engage in hand to hand combat he'll fall short only due to his physicals.

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#29 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

Arrow. Ranged attacks make this a lot easier

X

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#30 Posted by ganon15 (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah... RBT did a good job convincing me of Ollie's victory here

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#31 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver would beat him in H2H too , giving ranged attack is just making it easier for him.

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#32 Posted by Owie (7175 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning pretty heavily towards Ollie. His ranged options should be significantly better than Matt. Matt was pretty good blocking Bullseye's attacks at the end of season 3, but had a real hard time earlier, which suggests to me that part of his success was that he got more used to Bullseye's personal style over time. There were also some health issues earlier but he seemed to be not too hindered by them. In any case, he would be more likely to block Ollie's arrows than dodge them, and some of those arrows could be trick arrows that then go off when blocked.

Matt's performance against Fisk, both at the end of Defenders, but also when he got ragdolled by him when Fisk was in prison in season 2, is probably worse than Ollie's fights against Deathstroke and others of comparable strength.

Matt's suit is pretty damn durable though. He definitely does better in fights when he's wearing it, and it would take a lot for Ollie to do real damage to him while he's wearing it.

I think Ollie's agility is actually quite a bit higher than Matt's, Ollie's seems more superhuman at times, in terms of big leaps.

In terms of stealth/detection I think the result would be about even. Matt should be able to detect Ollie better, but honestly Matt's stealth feats aren't all that amazing from what I recall, so it probably washes out.

Defenders was really inconsistent. For example, Matt fought evenly alone against both Bakuto and Murakami, but then soon after it took both Matt and Colleen to fight just Bakuto alone. That just doesn't make a lot of sense. Matt and Elektra fought multiple times and Matt sometimes had a slight advantage, but then he said twice that she could have killed him in those fights. Elektra was struggling with Jessica over a sword seeming to show strength near on par with her, took hits around her head from Jessica without effect, took a hit from the Fist twice without major effect (in the sewers she was able to quickly stealth away, in the caverns at the end she was briefly stunned but got back up pretty quickly), is able to knock Matt out with one kick, and then later in the caverns at one point fights with Danny, Luke, Jess, and Matt at once. And she was able to beat Danny with and without his Fist, while Matt only fought evenly against Danny without the Fist. But then she struggled with Matt alone. (I think one of the biggest factors in this variance is when he does and does not wear his suit.) So overall I don't get a lot from that in terms of who is really equal to who, it's all too inconsistent. I more take the specific feats of strength, durability, etc. For Matt, it means he can take some good hits from some fairly strong characters, and that he is obviously quite skilled, but exactly how much is hard to determine.

Overall, in this scenario where they start at a distance under cover, Ollie should be able to detect Matt at a reasonable range and his trick arrows should do a reasonable job against him, at the very least softening him up and/or at least partly incapacitating his movement. Matt might also be able to throw his batons at Ollie, but with much less effect. And even if range didn't end it, I think Ollie's strength and agility are better, and his skill is at least as good if not better. Ollie's biggest challenge will be overcoming the durability of the suit, which is significant. But I think over time he should be able to wear Matt down.

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#33 Posted by Jestersmiles (9826 posts) - - Show Bio

DD

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#34 Posted by Helloman (29800 posts) - - Show Bio

CW Arrow wins.