Battle of the week: Iron Fist & Shang-Chi VS Spider-man & Daredevil

@owie: Damn, those are some nice durability feats. Thanks for sharing.

@bladeoffury: Scan for that claim if you wouldn't mind. Last I heard he was a 20 tonner according to most Marvel handbook sources.

Perhaps but it also doesn't mean he's necessarily a 50 tonner either. It also might be referring to his regular strength which Hiroim can amp with his Old Power in battle.

@jashro44 said:

@highaccuser: Mantis commented that if she couldn't beat karnak in a minute (or something like that) he would see the flaw in her fighting style. He also supposedly saw the flaw in Matts fighting style (that he was blind) but it back fired since Matt isn't totally blind:

Gallery

That was badass.

Also I think team two can take it in a very close fight.

How strong do you have be to make a shockwave like that though? Anyway I wouldn't claim he's a 50 tonner regardless.

@highaccuser: Well Daredevil foe Bruiser could create shockwaves by stomping the ground and I doubt he was even class 10

Wouldn't you kind of need to be above 10 tons to do that? Quantifiably speaking?

@highaccuser: I guess, but in all fairness, his powers worked by changing the center of gravity of his body and putting all his weight behind his strikes. Still I highly doubt he was over 10 tons but nothing is officially stated.

Hard to say, Spider-Man has created shockwaves like that but then again he has several feats above 20 tons. Probably Luke Cage level and above would be my best guess.

Yes it is still a weapon and a dense metal one as well. Daredevil was likely damaging him because of the weapons+him super-sensing flaws in the diamond (not sure if that was stated but it seems a solid hypothesis).

Oh you mean the bracer/wristband? Yes, when I enlarged the picture you can see it is tech and there are wires going towards the palm area so it would appear that you are correct irregardless of corroborating scans.

Granted Shang co-created Peter's Way of The Spider and has fought against it. However I simply don't think he can last against Spidey when he's fighting seriously. Peter was capable of beating Shang Chi in a sparring match without his Spider-Sense. In an actual encounter where Spidey is using his technique & gear + Spider-Sense I don't think Shang Chi has done anything to suggest he could hold out against Spidey for any decisive period of time.

Looking at a lot of the responses people seem to be considering this fight in a very linear manner - "Spidey beat Iron Fist, Shang Chi beats Matt - whoever wins their respective fight quicker tag teams" however what not many people are considering is changing opponents during the battle or fighting simultaneously. It's for this reason that in a 2 v 2 battle I'd give Team 2 a distinct advantage because Team 1 have (for lack of a better word) compatibility issues. Daredevil (who is being criminally underrated here) has done enough to suggest he can break even with Shang Chi or Iron Fist for a respectable amount of time, whereas the inverse isn't true. While Danny'll be capable of matching Peter for long enough Shang Chi simply doesn't have that same capability. Spider-Man will severely disadvantage either opponent in a 1 v 1 however while Matt can stand his ground against Danny, Chi will have significantly more difficulty doing the same thing against Spidey. I'd say that Team 2 have an advantage in a 2 v 2 fight.

@lord_adamantium: Thats what I meant. Matt being able to hurt someone made of diamond was because of his skill and radar sense. He is obviously not strong enough to do it with brute force.

It is a flaw detection/skill feat.

Exactly. DD damaging diamond was not because his hand to hand attack damage was on par with Shang Chi's as you suggested (it isn't), but rather it was because of the unique characteristics of diamonds plus him using metal weapons. You also referenced Daredevil bending jail bars as an addendum to your allusive, yet erroneous, inference that Matt could match Shang Chi's striking damage (he cannot).

@lord_adamantium: And why not? Whether he damages something via brute force or flaw detection, the end result is pretty much the same, no?

Shang is no different in the sense he too uses his skill and training to strike harder. But like I said, it doesnt really make a difference

Daredevil does not possess the powerful striking feats versus inanimate objects or living beings as Shang Chi Does. His radar sense helped with diamond which has inherent flaw fractures and can sense people pressure (Shang Chi knows pressure point locations also without the need for super-senses) but he is not on the same level as Shang Chi when it comes to striking damage so it is not the same. Shang Chi does more damage.

Shang Chi uses skill and his power and speed advantage. He does more damage striking than DD does regardless of DD's super-senses. Period. It makes a BIG difference. Daredevil is not in Shang's league when it comes to striking damage.

@lord_adamantium: Consider Daredevil's frequent use of vulnerability exploits and pressure points he's still got a respectable ability to put out the hurt.

@lord_adamantium: Then please make a convincing case as to why Shang has better striking feats and that includes stuff like dropping class 30s with a touch or causing blindness and simulate a burning sensation by doing the same.

So far, I havent seen any consistent feat from Shang that Matt cannot replicate

I think what he is arguing is that Shang hits harder than Matt when Matt doesn't use pressure points.

I already have proven that Shang chi has better striking damage feats, pressure points notwithstanding (and Shang Chi has pressure point feats as well).

It is obvious that Shang Chi dishes out more damage in his strikes, especially in his high-end feats. You have simply dug in your heels and won't be reasoned with.

This will just go on and on ad nauseam.

Have a good one bro.

I agree that DD can cause pain via pressure points (so can Shang Chi by the way plus there is the Dim Mak also) but I am talking about damage/power like this:

Daredevil is not in Shang Chi's league as far as powerful/damaging strikes (not pain but damage)

Thank you for your partial clarification. I am actually affirming that Shang Chi hit's harder regardless of whether Matt uses pressure points or not though. :D

@lord_adamantium: @jashro44: I guess if you count his classic feats, he probably does. But it doesnt really matter since he will need more than that to beat Matt

Nah his classic feats are more than enough to best Daredevil. It would be a good fight but Shang Chi would win.

But We could go on and on ad infinitum.

I give you the last word.

No problem....I guess your technically right all though the point of pressure points isn't really about how hard you hit.

In actuality the harder you hit a pressure point the more pain and trauma it causes i.e a thump to a pressure point will not hurt nearly as much (perhaps even not at all) nor cause as much damage as a full-strength strike, so pressure point attacks are about how hard you hit for the most part.

My point is that Shang Chi can do more damage/hit harder than Matt whether it is just "normal" striking or strikes to pressure points.

True but what I was saying is that pain from pressure points are different than the pain of being punched. For example when Matt used pressure points on Ox to simulate burning. The pain isn't the same so I don't think you can compare the two.

Yes but pressure points are about how hard you hit, technically "speaking". The harder you hit a pressure point, the more pain and trauma you cause. If you punch a pressure point lightly it won't hurt nearly as much as if you punched it with all of your might.

Some more scans for kicks.

Iron Fist vs Daredevil, their first meeting, in Contest of Champions (which was known for PIS up the wazoo), with DD's radar sense messed up by snow, and Iron Fist not using chi.

Or is this their first meeting? I've never checked the dates, but it makes it as if it's their first meeting too. Obviously one of them forgot about the other one of them. (They team up immediately after this page.) Also no chi.

Hey, how's about Daredevil knocking out Sabretooth in this early appearance for Sabretooth (this was around the same era that Black Cat decked him, too). Scan 1, Scan 2. Nice work punching him through some pipes regardless.

DD briefly holds his own against Kraven before being KOd.

Shang's fight against Elektra shows some impressive coordination and fine motor control/accuracy, not only in catching the fly in chopsticks, but in knocking Elektra's sai out of the table they were stuck in, back at her, just by kicking the table from behind, and catching his noodles and chopsticks out of the air.

Thinking of Daredevil's speed and dexterity, he does a nice job dodging Superior Spider-man's webbing on multiple occasions in this fight, even if he wasn't going to win overall.

Obviously none of the above is an actual argument, I'm just letting my mind wander as I think about this.

You're welcome.

He definitely couldn't last forever. And it had occurred to me since I posted that when Shang taught him the way of the spider, that Pete didn't have his spider-sense then. I hadn't really been thinking about the spider-sense earlier, but it would have a big effect. It certainly is an asset to team 2 that they have all the extra-sensory perception, between the spider-sense and the radar sense. Although the radar sense is probably of less use in this particular battle, it tends to be more helpful with ranged stuff.

I'm favouring Spider-Man and Daredevil. Spidey is one of the opponents Danny has admitted to having difficulty facing and Matt is skilled enough to take on Shang Chi plus his radar sense offers him a greater situational awareness that Shang would not have.

@owie: Didn't Shang fight Elektra when she wasn't as skilled as later on?

Yes, that's true, she engaged in more intensive training in the next volume of Elektra. I don't know whether his skill levels changed after that or not. I was showing those scans more for his objective coordination feats than how he fared against her personally though, since I think they were both showing off more than really engaging with each other.

I figured I would upload this fight from daredevil annual #10. Its scans of Shang-chi fighting ghostmaker, and than ghostmaker fighting daredevil.

http://imgur.com/a/sRwSF

I was thinking of that one too. It seemed like the last few scans wouldn't load, at least for me, so I'll repost my versions:

Ghost Maker vs Shang Chi

Ghost Maker vs Daredevil and Elektra

Ghost Maker vs Daredevil, Elektra, and Shang Chi

and, what the hell, Daredevil and Elektra vs American Samurai 1, and Daredevil and Elektra vs American Samurai 2

For those not familiar with them, it should be noted that both Ghost Maker and American Samurai are not only very skilled, but physically enhanced (Samurai probably more so). Ghost Maker was an old Shang Chi nemesis who was killed and resurrected by the Hand for this fight.

The reason I can't decide about this is because I can't decide who's more serious--a serious Spider-man or a serious Iron Fist. And who's more effective when they're full-on serious? Spider-man, speed-blitzing in, smacking people around, webbing them up fast, spider-sense pinging away? Iron Fist, speed-blitzing in, every blow a potential KO, dodging and weaving, deftly re-directing super-strong blows? Iron Fist has a more martial mind-set, no doubt. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt due to that. The right mindset can win a fight. But it could be that Spidey manages to web up Shang Chi even while tangling with Danny. Lots of variables. If we do switch it up, with Iron Fist going seriously against Daredevil, it will take a while for Danny to get some good hits in; Matt would lose, but he's a serious enough martial artist, and an excellent enough dodger, for it to take a while. I am leaning towards Spidey beating Shang more quickly than Iron Fist beats Matt. I guess I'm coming down with a win for the martial artists if Danny fights Peter, and a win for team 2 if Danny goes for Matt.