Battle of the week: Green Arrow vs Daredevil

@ghostravage: Haha XD

I think you're an incredible debater and I've attempted to modify my own style using yourself, TTBA and a select few other debaters. My problem isn't strictly with you, rather people who appeal to your authority. People don't seem to understand, or don't care for the fact, that even the best of us aren't infallible. When you see someone present an argument, even one substantiated with sufficient evidence, you have to consider that you are still viewing someones subjective interpretation. Two people can see the same scan (both knowing the accompanying context) and draw differing conclusions. Subjective bias is an inherent unavoidable trait. "Ghostravage wouldn't agree with _____" isn't proof of anything. Even your specialities.

It's not exclusive to you, any appeal to a figure of 'authority' rubs me the wrong way...

Thank you for the kind words mate. As for what you're saying, that's actually an argumentative fallacy called Ad Verecundiam. Appealing to someone or appealing to be an authority on the subject is a fallacious attempt to validate something. Hate the people who use this fallacy, don't hate on the authority (not that i consider myself one personally though :P).

@hypnozzz: Sorry you had to wait so long, but you've had plenty of recovery time at this point.

I tagged you and that should suffice. I guess next time i'll reply, tag and throw up a gif of party streamers if you really need all of that to get a notice that I responded to you.

I bet that sounded a lot smarter in your head. I get that you're annoyed of getting repeatedly clowned by me and as a result you're trying to be edgy, but just focus on the points you're trying to make.

I'm aware. That doesn't make Oliver inept however. The fact that he doesn't use trick arrows isn't because he doesn't have them or because he was taken by surprise. He had more than one moment to use his other modes of attack, yet he didn't.

What "Other modes of attack" are you talking about? There is clearly context behind the "Fight", as I've already outlined multiple times.

I think that helps to prove my stance that he doesn't lean on trick arrows as much as you like to think he does. Again not that this one instance outright proves it, but you have relied on Drakon entirely too much in this match up when there's loads of context behind Ollie tagging him in their second encounter.

I've used more than just Drakon for evidence that Ollie uses trick arrows in character. Look at the first two pages, and if you'd like then I can provide you with more examples.

At first glance it's probable that he's doubting Drakon, yet that thin veil of supposed superiority should've shattered once Drakon ran circles around him. The fact that he then tries multiple times to shoot him with regular arrows doesn't mean he didn't have trick arrows. It means despite going up against what appears to be a fast, competent foe he still leans on what's natural to him in a given situation..... regular arrows.

How do you explain an unprepped Oliver using trick arrows in their second encounter then? He had just as much knowledge then as he did after Drakon crossed the room FTE and all that other stuff. How do you explain Oliver's final arrow against Drakon in a last ditch attempt being a conventional one, after he knew how fast Drakon was? You could argue that both fights have context, in which case they'd balance themselves out and I'd still be right because of all the other examples. I've provided more than just Drakon.

And again no your scan doesn't show a lack of trick arrows. There are unknown arrows in his quiver, some on the ground and the possibility that others fell out off panel. As i've shown he both had trick arrows in that very quiver and it was pretty darn full when he fought Drakon.

http://i.imgur.com/GkeKwE9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KXtcLbb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4CRnQTe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yLFCIcd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/I3VIgLn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8ufz3qg.jpg

And above are the appearances of just a few of Ollie's trick arrows. Notice they look different, and Drakon never notices any trick arrows in Ollie's quiver during their first encounter.

We can agree to disagree on this if you like because it wasn't a the biggest issue I had with your posts.

Fair enough.

You have still yet to respond to my commentary on the context behind Ollie catching the overconfident Drakon.

I don't recall you mentioning it. What context are you referring to? That Drakon wasn't expecting a trick arrow?

I think the training he got under Natas was overrated to be honest. From a tactics standpoint it's impressive, but that whole faze where he's some uber ninja version of Ollie using Natas techniques and carrying a Katana was short lived.

I'm not going to base my whole argument on "He got trained more since then", but it has clearly had an impact on his abilities. Like you've said, Ollie became better tactically after it and less impulsive.

Also Drakon's speed in comparison to Matt's is meaningless. As i've already pointed out the reason Ollie was able to tag Drakon was entirely circumstantial and had a lot to do with Constantine as a character. I'm well aware of how fast Drakon is as i've read every issue he's appeared in.... it just doesn't matter.

Describing it as "Entirely circumstantial" is lowballing and a knock on Green Arrow's tactical prowess. I can get you saying that not everything Ollie did to Drakon would be useful against Matt because of their different personalities, but "Entirely circumstantial"? No. It's a great showing that wouldn't have been possible if Ollie wasn't as smart as he is. And Daredevil doesn't literally have to catch a trick arrow to be taken down.

No it doesn't. I brought actual proof to the table. You tried to pawn off the scan as him having one arrow left when he had multiple both in and outside of his quiver.

Headcanon is not proof. Proof is using not just what is said, but what is implied and matching it up with what else we know.

And all the times he's opened up with trick arrows are the exception, not the rule. He's more likely to open up with regular arrows. He carries more of them, uses them more often and he's facing a lone combatant without any knowledge of his capabilities. Does this mean he won't use trick arrows? No. I do think it means he won't start off by spamming what he doesn't use as regularly as regular arrows.

I never said Ollie will just spam his entire quiver at Matt. I'm saying that it is in character for him to either open with trick arrows, or use them very early in the fight. Hell, the first time we see him after his resurrection in Green Arrow #1, he takes down thugs with makeshift trick arrows after he doesn't have the real thing, proving that it's an integral part of his fighting style.

And as i've already pointed out you still haven't proven that his quiver was scarce of any trick arrows. This is becoming a broken record.

Agree to disagree, like you've said.

He doesn't have the ability to move his foot out of the way when his radar tips him off to the exact location the arrow will land before it's anywhere near him? Are you serious?

Do yourself a favor and take a pencil, soda can or whatever you have sitting next to you and drop it near you foot. Do you need a shield to protect your foot? Or can you just move your foot out of the way? Are we on the same page now?

Regardless of whether you think it'd work in real life, it's proven time and time again to be a viable tactic against arrow timers that can't be countered with speed alone. A more suitable example would be a tennis ball. Most people can easily dodge or catch it when thrown at chest/head level, but if it were to be thrown at the feet? You'd be much less likely to avoid it.

Because i'm on the side of common sense.

A quip stated by Oliver means nothing.

Now you're just ignoring evidence. His thoughts clearly show that Drakon wasn't able to react because of the placement of the arrow. That isn't ambiguous at all, he literally says it.

Drakon if not for the glue wouldn't have been bothered by the arrow.

If that were true, he'd have aimed it at chest level because there would have been no risk of Drakon catching it.

Furthermore going out of his way to catch arrows is a trait synonymous with Drakon alone here. He makes a point of grabbing everything out of the air for the purpose of embarrassing his opponent, whereas Matt is more liable to just move his foot.

As Oliver has shown by shooting at a blinded opponent who has the specific goal to catch every arrow fired his way. I'm almost at a loss for words right now.

So... You're saying that Drakon let himself be hit with the arrows, just because he couldn't specifically catch them? Because that's pretty stupid.

I posted twice before the comment you responded to.

In comments I wasn't tagged in. You can't direct comments to other people and then act like I'm purposely ignoring them. I didn't even know of these others comments' existences until just now. If you want me to respond to something you say, then tag me.

Reality is a reality whether you like it or not.

Because I accidentally deleted my post like an idiot here it is again.

Basically this fight comes down to whether Ollie can stay at range long enough to tag Matt with a well placed trick arrow or if Matt can close the distance and overpower Ollie in close combat. There's already been plenty of fruitful and more informative discussion than I can provide on either character but I wish to add my stance on why I think Daredevil can close the gap on Green Arrow.

Since the fight starts 100 feet apart, Ollie is going to have plenty of room to fire arrows at Matt. But DD has room to evade them, plenty of cover to get behind and, as the GA side has already conceded, the reflexes to block the arrows fired at him. He has several consistent bullet timing feats where he reacts to bullets so arrows are not going to be difficult to block at all. Moreover, Daredevil has started at equal or greater distances away from equal if not superior marksmen to Green Arrow such as Bullseye, Punisher and Captain America to name a few. Evading Ollie's arrows won't be a problem.

As for trick arrows, an in character Ollie doesn't spam them nearly as much as some people think he does. Green Arrow's in character tactics are a mix of regular arrows with trick arrows. He's not going to be spamming explosive, cryogenic and sonic arrows all out at a guy he knows nothing about. Plus OP arrows like tornado arrows are not in character for Ollie either. Most likely we're looking at non lethal explosive arrows, cryogenic arrows, electric arrows, glue arrows and net arrows being used in this fight. Relying on the Constantine Drakon instance is kinda misleading given that Drakon's arrogance resulted in Ollie being able to catch him off guard with a trick arrow. Daredevil's senses has been proven to be an effective advantage at detecting what kind of trick arrows Ollie will use such as being able to sniff glue or explosive powder. Matt's radar and enhanced senses will enable him to evade Ollie even more effectively as well as detect the trajectory of Ollie's shots and any special ricochet arrows Ollie may fire.

When it comes to closing the gap, Matt's speed and agility is highly likely to get past Ollie's arrow barrage. He's done this to ranged marksmen, including named ones like Bullseye. Alternatively Matt can stealth his way on top of Ollie, his stealth showings are good enough to disappear on people even in broad daylight. Then there's also the billy club ricochet which can distract Ollie long enough for Matt to close the gap. Up close, Ollie's chances plummet down the drain. Matt can and will break Ollie's bow and proceed to overpower Ollie. And then Matt sues Ollie for physical assault.

For my final argument in this thread, I will recap my points until now:

The fight starts at a distance, which is already an advantage for Oliver, since Daredevil is a close-ranged fighter while Oliver is, well... the Emerald Archer. As the fight starts, Daredevil will have to somehow work his way to cover the distance, while having to dodge Oliver's shots. As the fight starts, Oliver is very likely to open with a volley of several arrows, one of more of which is very likely to be a trick arrow. This is an opening move that he has used consistently throughout the years. Now, Daredevil is more than capable of dodging an arrow of even a volley of them, that much goes without saying. But, Oliver's biggest trademark is his trick arrows. He is known to use them tactically against opponents who are capable of evading and/or catching regular arrows with ease, such as Constantine Drakon, Deathstroke, Komodo and Richard Dragon as well as many others throughout the years, as well as against complete fodder. He has a plethora of trick arrows with large areas of effect that Matt will have a very hard time escaping. Counters for these arrows were suggested by people here, but they're not very solid in my honest opinion. These are Oliver's most commonly used trick arrows and reasons why they should work on Matt:

1. The tear/knockout gas arrow: It has been suggested that Matt has nostril filters that render any gas used against him completely useless. Now, if that's true and it's standard gear for him, that means that one of his biggest cards - the ability to smell what arrow is coming is way - is shut completely off. Filtering everything but pure air from going into your nose will render your sense of smell useless, no matter how acute it is. Without the filters, any of those two arrows can take out Matt. He has shown the ability to hold his breath for extended periods of time, yes, but that was while standing still. Doing it when running, jumping and fighting is something else entirely.
2. The explosive arrow: Pretty straightforward. It explodes. Now, while Daredevil is incredibly fast, he will have a hard time escaping the range of an explosion. Oliver will aim the arrows at the walls/floor around Daredevil, and he's good enough of a marksman to place them at a good spot for them to have a maximum effect on Matt. Even if he does dodge the explosion/s, it will get harder and harder the closer he gets to Oliver, and I don't see him dodging all the way into melee range without at least taking considerable damage.
3. The sonic arrow: Well, if Ollie uses this one, it's over. He hasn't been using it strictly against people who have a specific weakness to the sonic arrow's effect, so even without prior knowledge, there's a good chance that he will use this arrow, at least not a lesser chance than any other trick arrow. Moreover, one time that Oliver used it was against Deadshot, when the latter came close to him to engage in hand-to-hand combat, so it's very plausible that if Matt manages to cross the distance between himself and Green Arrow, the same will happen again.
4. The electric arrow: Its radius is quite good, and Oliver is certainly capable of placing it close enough to Matt for the electric surge to tag him. The only counter suggested against that is Matt's supposedly insulated gloves... but gloves are gloves, and that won't help him when the electric surge goes off on the floor at his feet. Besides, whenever he was attacked with an electricity-based attack, he always got at least somewhat damaged and at least momentarily disoriented, which is more than enough for Green Arrow to land another hit that will seal the deal.
5. The cryonic arrow: The only counter against this one was trying to downplay its area of effect, which didn't work so well. It has a large area of effect and it goes off instantaneously upon impact, so there's not much Matt can do against it.
6. The flashbang arrow: Green Arrow is not gonna use it here since it's in broad daylight which cuts the arrow's efficiency by a very large margin. If he does use it for some reason, Matt will obviously not be blinded, but flashbangs do create somewhat of a sonic effect as well, which could play a big factor here.
7. The glue arrow: That's a good one since it doesn't have to make contact with anything before it goes off. Now even if Matt can smell the glue, he won't know the mechanism of the arrow and will not expect it to go off at his face in mid-air. And while he's probably fast enough to evade being completely incapacitated by it, it will most probably have at least somewhat of an effect that hinders Matt's mobility, giving Oliver a good advantage.

There are many more trick arrows that can be put to good use here, but they aren't used that often so I won't expand on them here. And yes, the tornado arrow is one of them. It can match Killer Moth's air-blast gun, which could create air-blasts powerful enough to easily block bullets like concrete.

Now, another thing that was brought up was Daredevil's billy clubs. He uses them often as a long-ranged weapon, utilizing trick shots to catch an enemy off-guard. However, Oliver has several factors going in his favor here: One, he has reacted to projectiles far faster than a billy club. He is a consistent arrow-timer and also a legit bullet-timer on occasion. He has reacted to arrows coming from behind turning around just in time to slice the arrow in half with his sword. He will not have a problem reacting to any projectile slower than an arrow coming from any direction. Two, he is very competent at using trick-shots himself. If Daredevil goes for a trick shot, Oliver will recognize the intention and react accordingly. And three, he has fought alongside Nightwing, who uses the escrima sticks, which are pretty much exactly like billy clubs, and he also uses trick-shots with them, so Oliver's no stranger to that thing at all.

One more thing to cover, is Daredevil using cover (pun not intended). That can be countered in a number of ways: One, Green Arrow has been able to spot people trying to sneak up on him in the past. His awareness has been shown to exceed Lady Shiva's, the Question's, Connor Hawke's and Kyle Rayner's. Two, he has mapping arrows that can show him the full picture of his environment, making stealth impossible to use against him. Third, he has thermal goggles, which - again - make stealth impossible to use against him. Fourth, Oliver's arrows can penetrate rough surfaces such as brick walls, cinder and even the doors of an armored truck, so he can use them to shoot through whatever cover Matt will try and use. Matt will not expect the arrow to penetrate his cover, so he will not be able to evade it. And fifth, if Matt tries to go for stealth and disappear from sight, Oliver can use a grappling-hook arrow to ascent to the rooftops, which will both give him a good vantage point, and will take the fight to a favorable battleground for him. If and when Matt goes to the roof to face Green Arrow again, he will have no cover to use and will have little to no room for dodging, so he will be an extremely easy target for a trick arrow.

The distance is the key factor in all of this. If Daredevil is too far, he can't attack and has to be on the defensive. The closer he gets - the easier target he becomes to the World's Greatest Archer. If he gets within melee distance, nothing is stopping Oliver from manually activating a trick arrow like he did against Deadshot. Trying to disarm his trick arrows can prove to be a very bad idea for Matt, seeing as Oliver's quiver is electric, and Matt doesn't have a good enough track record against electric-based attacks, especially ones that are powerful enough to knock out the Flash. Also, trying to break the arrows will set them off, which is - again - very counter productive for Matt.

Bottom line: Green Arrow wins in a very hard-earned victory, but a victory nonetheless.

I wonder whos going to win Argument of The Week?

@the_red_viper:

*sigh*

@the_red_viper: Look, i'm not going to address the other parts considering they've been extensively addressed so far, but man... That's not how nostril filters and not even gas masks work. Even in the same issue Daredevil flat out tracks Mysterio while the whole room is covered in thick smoke and he just follows a faint scent and manages to undercover him.

Just admit those arrows won't work. I already proved to you the consistency of his nostril filters and he has been able to discern smells even when they are odorless. You at the very least must concede on this.