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Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) 1 year, 9 months ago

Poll: Battle of the week: Green Arrow vs Daredevil (168 votes)

Green Arrow 31%
Daredevil 63%
Too Close To Call 7%
No Caption Provided

For this weeks battle of the week we have the Emerald Archer Green Arrow versus The Man Without Fear Daredevil! Who will win? You decide!

Rules

  • Green arrow gets post crisis, rebirth/new 52 feats
  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

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#201 Edited by HankScorpio (120 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted for DD because of his prior fights and general handing of situations and foes similar or superior to Green Arrow.

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#202 Edited by JasonBourne_ (434 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil is superior to Ollie in the comics.

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#203 Posted by buildhare (8573 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for Green Arrow because @lubub55 told me too.

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#204 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio
@jinn said:

I vote for Daredevil because lubub55 has ruined any interest in Green Arrow.

lol.

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#205 Edited by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare said:

Voting for Green Arrow because @lubub55 told me too.

His make believe version of Green Arrow certainly seems impressive. Much like the Easter bunny this version doesn't quite exist, but hey it sure is fun to pretend he does.

Sure he can react to arrows, but Ollie has used unorthodox tactics against arrow timers like Red Hood and Constantine Drakon. He'll aim for the legs where arrows can't be blocked, and he will use trick arrows and the environment for distraction, all whilst creating more distance between the two. He's tagged people faster than Matt, so just being an arrow timer isn't enough.

For instance lubub's GA will win because of his tactics against Red Hood and Drakon. Neither of which he fired a single trick arrow at in their first encounter. Not even Drakon who ran across the room FTE when Ollie tried to initially club him. Does he then ascertain that Drakon is so fast that maybe regular arrows wont do the trick here? Nope. He then fires multiple regular arrows that miss only to get embarrassed again by Drakon. Wait but it gets better Drakon then turns around to walk out of the room and Ollie holsters one more plain arrow to shoot at his back when he appears to be vulnerable...... and then well you know the rest. Drakon has his way and pins him to the floor with his own arrows.

Oh and Red Hood's a great example here. Just like Ollie did against Jason he'll aim for Matt's legs because they "can't be blocked."

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I guess nobody told Toddy that blocking those were against the rules. What a shame.

These citations that Lubub has so heavily relied on are kind of funny, because one of Lubub's assertions is that GA will take notice of Matt's speed and H2H proficiency and either back off or use trick arrows off the bat. Sadly enough he didn't do so against what Lubub claims to be an even faster adversary (Drakon). At least in their first encounter. It took him a severe beating to use a bit of common sense and bring some trick arrows to the party, and i'm afraid he won't have a second chance in this match up.

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#206 Edited by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

I'VE CREATED SALT!!!

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#207 Edited by Lvenger (36295 posts) - - Show Bio

I plan to make a full argument before this BOW closes but for now I'll just counter the largely undiscussed claim that Green Arrow can tag Matt with ricochet shots. That is also an unlikely scenario since the DD side has shown Matt can ricochet his billy clubs with incredible accuracy so he could deflect the arrows Ollie has ricocheted. The alternative, surprise surprise, is Matt avoiding them since he's avoided a ricochet shield throw from Captain America at the last second after Steve fired anti radar chaff to hide his position from Matt's senses in Daredevil (2011) #1-2.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And in case the GA side is somehow in doubt that Steve is less accurate than Ollie at ricochet shots, then I shall disprove that belief. Take the most infamous example of Steve's precision with his shield in the Captain America: Who Will Wield the Shield? one shot where Steve turns a lighter on and off again with a shield throw without even looking.

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Or if a more recent example is needed, in Captain America: Sam Wilson #14, Hydra Cap deliberately got Sam into a position where he missed a shield throw since his experience means he knows the trajectory of every throw and every bend and turn it can take.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Point being if Matt can avoid ricochet throws from someone as precise as Captain America with a clouded radar sense at the time, Ollie is unlikely to be successful at tagging Matt with ricochet arrows.

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#208 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Wait who said Oliver will tag Matt with a ricochet arrow? I for one brought Oliver's ricochets to point out that he will recognize a trick shot if Matt attempts one and it won't take him by surprise so he can react to it and shoot the club down.

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#209 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypnozzz:

His make believe version of Green Arrow certainly seems impressive.

You're wrong on something. There is absolutely no need to be upset about it.

For instance lubub's GA will win because of his tactics against Red Hood and Drakon. Neither of which he fired a single trick arrow at in their first encounter. Not even Drakon who ran across the room FTE when Ollie tried to initially club him. Does he then ascertain that Drakon is so fast that maybe regular arrows wont do the trick here? Nope. He then fires multiple regular arrows that miss only to get embarrassed again by Drakon. Wait but it gets better Drakon then turns around to walk out of the room and Ollie holsters one more plain arrow to shoot at his back when he appears to be vulnerable...... and then well you know the rest. Drakon has his way and pins him to the floor with his own arrows.

You're ignoring context.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

A fully prepared Constantine Drakon was waiting for Green Arrow, who didn't even know of his existence, with no weapons. Green Arrow opens up a fight with somebody who has been said repeatedly throughout his appearances to be constantly underestimated because of his height by trying to hit him with his bow, the only time he's ever done that in his publication history. This wasn't a proper fight, and as we can see in the second and third scans, he was too shocked at Drakon's speed to do anything. A "Dwarf" who seems to be there only to talk. In their rematch, which was an actual fight, Drakon ambushes Oliver who now knows he can fight in a small room, and is then taken targetted with trick arrows and a shot to the foot. The stipulations of the first fight were quite heavily in Drakon's favour obviously, and in their rematch when Oliver was still caught off guard, he won. And you're ignoring the most important thing here. Oliver wasn't on patrol, instead he was just picking something up from a lab and wasn't expecting a fight, and as a result he wasn't actually carrying any trick arrows with him. After shooting Drakon with a load of conventional arrows, we see that his quiver either has one arrow in, or is empty. Ignoring context won't do you much good here.

You may be wondering why Green Arrow won't underestimate Daredevil as well, but that's where the Red Hood fight comes in. That was once again a fight stacked in Jason's favour with the location as Oliver comments, but he actually knew he was facing a fighter. He will here too, because of Daredevil's costume and equipment, just like he has against everyone who looks even remotely dangerous. Then, he did the exact same trick he did on Drakon in a random encounter, but just used water pipes as a replacement for the glue bomb arrow, since Jason has a mask to cover up his face. He comments that Jason planned this and chose a close-quarters environment, and he can't use his more powerful trick arrows here like the explosives.

Oh and Red Hood's a great example here. Just like Ollie did against Jason he'll aim for Matt's legs because they "can't be blocked."

I guess nobody told Toddy that blocking those were against the rules. What a shame.

You mean when Jason has a weapon that actually reaches down to his feet, when a billy club doesn't? You've taken bias to a whole new level. Green Arrow shoots at his legs to make it harder to react to and so that they can't be caught/blocked, and Red Hood countered that with something Daredevil doesn't have access to. This shows that it's common tactic for Oliver. Deal with it.

These citations that Lubub has so heavily relied on are kind of funny, because one of Lubub's assertions is that GA will take notice of Matt's speed and H2H proficiency and either back off or use trick arrows off the bat. Sadly enough he didn't do so against what Lubub claims to be an even faster adversary (Drakon). At least in their first encounter. It took him a severe beating to use a bit of common sense and bring some trick arrows to the party, and i'm afraid he won't have a second chance in this match up.

Ah, more ignoring context. All of this has been debunked with things from the story you've chosen to ignore because you don't like them.

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#210 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond.

Not even close actually. You can't ricochet a bullet, or anything for that matter, back by simply blocking it. You actually have swing and connect with the object mid-motion to change it's direction, watching a game of badminton or tennis tells you this much. This isn't Bucky blocking bullets in the Civil war movie, this is someone moving so fast that they are able to change the trajectory of a bullet in motion after it's been fired, whether it's redirecting it away from himself, or back at the attacker, Daredevil has done both.

Calling what he does "aim blocking" is disingenuous and just goes against what aim blocking actually is.

He doesn't just hold it in his face to aim block, that's not what I'm claiming. He times his club swings perfectly so that the bullet is fired as he is in the middle of a club swing. Let's take a quotew from a scan I showed you before:

His timing must be perfect! His execution flawless!

He isn't holding his club in front on his face and waiting, he's using perfect coordination and impeccable skill to bat a bullet away in the middle of the swing, without actually having to move the baton after the bullet is fired. They're great feats, but not because of speed. Now this doesn't mean that Daredevil doesn't have bullet timing feats, because he does as I showed, but most of the ones people use to prove it aren't genuine bullet timing. Even in the scans where Daredevil says that he's moving before the bullets are fired, we see the bullet get swatted away, so that can hardly be used as evidence.

Hell, Daredevils very first bullet deflection feat had the shooter in the process of pulling the trigger by the time Daredevil noticed that a shot was about to be fired in Daredevil vol 1 issue 3. We can actually see that Daredevil swung his billy club in order to redirect the shot.

This feat is obviously moving before the bullet is fired. The narration and his thoughts clearly show his Radar Sense tells him about the trajectory before the shot is fired, and the scans only show the bullet about to be fired on the left and when it's already been batted away on the right. Nothing inbetween. The one I posted is actual bullet timing because there is a panel where we can see the muzzle flash with Daredevil still in the way, and one afterwards of him having moved.

Now, lets move on to the first scan you posted. For reference that scan comes from Daredevil vol 1 issue 335. Lets post the full instance to get the best picture:

As we can see in the second scan, Daredevils radar was all messed up since he was in a sewer, and Daredevil was visibly having issues relying solely on his radar and even his other senses, he had no choice to but use pure focus in order to pull off the feat of deflecting the bullet. So, again, Daredevil is that fast and you can't attribute that feat to his radar.

His Radar wasn't working to full effect, but that doesn't mean it wasn't working. Look at the middle scan of the second panel you posted:

Internal Radar sings with incoming movement from two sides.

That shows it was clearly working, and then the actual panel of the deflection confirms this where it says "Feel the attack before it comes", and has an image of the Radar marks around Daredevil's head.

Now, I can't find the issue your last scan (the one with a black suited Spider-Man) is from, so I won't touch that. An issue number would be appreciated though so we can have full context on that scan, considering your first scan had clear vital context to it that you probably missed or didn't know about, so it's possible that the other one could as well

It's already been pointed out to you, but it's from The Amazing Spider-Man #287.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here is the scan before. Here is another instance from Daredevil #151 where he states he knows the attack is coming, and reacts because of it.

You can call it aim blocking all you want, but it's really not. Daredevil is fast enough to actually move his limbs to deflect bullets after they've been fired.

He is, but it's aim blocking most of the time. There are a few rare instances of genuine bullet timing which show he can do it, but most of the time he doesn't. Unless there's a clear panel where a bullet's been fired and Matt is vulnerable, and another where he's safe then it isn't bullet timing.

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#211 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Oh, and Ollie carries a tornado arrow in the New 52.

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#212 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Before I give a more detailed reply to your post, answer me this: Why does it matter if Daredevil has aim blocked or dodged when it is shown time and again that he can genuinely react to them after they leave the gun?.

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#213 Edited by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55

A fully prepared Constantine Drakon was waiting for Green Arrow, who didn't even know of his existence, with no weapons. Green Arrow opens up a fight with somebody who has been said repeatedly throughout his appearances to be constantly underestimated because of his height by trying to hit him with his bow, the only time he's ever done that in his publication history. This wasn't a proper fight, and as we can see in the second and third scans, he was too shocked at Drakon's speed to do anything. A "Dwarf" who seems to be there only to talk. In their rematch, which was an actual fight, Drakon ambushes Oliver who now knows he can fight in a small room, and is then taken targetted with trick arrows and a shot to the foot. The stipulations of the first fight were quite heavily in Drakon's favour obviously, and in their rematch when Oliver was still caught off guard, he won. And you're ignoring the most important thing here. Oliver wasn't on patrol, instead he was just picking something up from a lab and wasn't expecting a fight, and as a result he wasn't actually carrying any trick arrows with him. After shooting Drakon with a load of conventional arrows, we see that his quiver either has one arrow in, or is empty. Ignoring context won't do you much good here.

You're going to have to let me in on this context of yours because I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have a single trick arrow within his quiver.

No Caption Provided

For instance he had a grenade arrow in the issue directly before the Drakon fight, and since he spent the night at Joanna Pierce's house he had the same quiver with him.

I'm not buying the whole "shock" bit against Drakon btw. Well I am buying it in the sense that he may have been too stupid or "shocked" as you call it to use any trick arrows, but I don't think it proves anything in Oliver's favor here. He was shocked about Drakon's speed (which may be the case against Daredevil) and he didn't do anything to mitigate that advantage in terms of trick arrows. Drakon then concussed him and overwhelmed him with strikes, which again you claim if Daredevil does this then Oliver will change tactics. Of course there was nowhere to run in Ollie's encounter with Drakon, but I am of the opinion that he had other resources within his quiver that he could've used. Unless you can cite any specific comment by GA commenting on his lack of trick arrows i'm not buying it. Warranted he didn't appear to have the glue arrow he then brought to the second encounter, but that's a single arrow.

Oliver wasn't on patrol, instead he was just picking something up from a lab and wasn't expecting a fight, and as a result he wasn't actually carrying any trick arrows with him.

Again not buying this. He had the same quiver he'd already shown to have trick arrows in, and it's not like he used them all fighting the mutated beasts in the scan featured above. That's the only instance where he used a trick arrow during the fight so i'd say he has some left over.

Overall point being Ollie isn't as likely to whip out trick arrows as fast and as frequently as people are claiming here. Not that the specific fight against Drakon is conclusive evidence of this, but as I pointed out earlier I find it funny that this instance against Drakon really doesn't exemplify the gameplan you've chosen for Ollie.

As for the quiver being empty . . . when?

No Caption Provided

It looked to be fully stocked in multiple panels during their fight. Furthermore the very scan you featured disproves what you are claiming:

No Caption Provided

He has multiple arrows falling out of his quiver both on panel and possibly off panel. You so badly want to believe in this fictitious version of Oliver and this fictitious version of events that you are failing to see reality, and even when you look at specific scans you are attempting to warp the facts.

You may be wondering why Green Arrow won't underestimate Daredevil as well, but that's where the Red Hood fight comes in. That was once again a fight stacked in Jason's favour with the location as Oliver comments, but he actually knew he was facing a fighter. He will here too, because of Daredevil's costume and equipment, just like he has against everyone who looks even remotely dangerous. Then, he did the exact same trick he did on Drakon in a random encounter, but just used water pipes as a replacement for the glue bomb arrow, since Jason has a mask to cover up his face. He comments that Jason planned this and chose a close-quarters environment, and he can't use his more powerful trick arrows here like the explosives.

Facing a known foe like Jason Todd is hardly proof that he'll know how capable Matt is in this match up. Ollie goes up against masked foes all day and plenty of them aren't that impressive. He won't specifically be tuned into Matt's abilities just because he's wearing a red devil outfit.

Also I don't like the way you're painting Oliver as some trick arrow god who's always looking to blow up, shock, freeze or incapacitate all of his foes using trick arrows as his go to. His specific comment against Jason was that it makes it harder to use his bow, which makes sense. Not that he's like "oh darn this area is too small to use trick arrows like I do 24/7!" Certainly you're right that he can't use explosive arrows specifically, but to onlookers reading your post the tone you are using presents Ollie in a false light.

You mean when Jason has a weapon that actually reaches down to his feet, when a billy club doesn't? You've taken bias to a whole new level. Green Arrow shoots at his legs to make it harder to react to and so that they can't be caught/blocked, and Red Hood countered that with something Daredevil doesn't have access to. This shows that it's common tactic for Oliver. Deal with it.

Bias to a whole new level? Hey pal I have this cool friend called reality and he'd like to have a word with you. Anyway my point being painting foot shots as unstoppable is flat out bizarre. For instance Oliver was only able to catch Drakon in the foot, because Drakon foolishly caught an arrow (with a canister attached to it) practically saying "i'm not a regular arrow" in neon letters. As i've already pointed out I have a hard time believe Matt will be as liable to grab everything in sight like Drakon does. Considering the fact that you never responded to my initial comments i'm sure you concede that fact.

As for my supposed bias about Red Hood i'm not using that scan in order to prove DD will block an arrow in a similar manner. I'm using it in order to point out the common sense notion that it isn't very hard to avoid an Arrow. It's not an unblockable or undodgeable feat. All DD needs to do is move his foot, and his radar gives him a direct idea of where the arrow will be fired directly before and after it's released.

Ah, more ignoring context. All of this has been debunked with things from the story you've chosen to ignore because you don't like them.

Provide actual evidence and I will concede that his equipment was as lacking as you make it out to be.

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#214 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Before I give a more detailed reply to your post, answer me this: Why does it matter if Daredevil has aim blocked or dodged when it is shown time and again that he can genuinely react to them after they leave the gun?.

It doesn't really. It might be best to just leave it at that, since we agree he can genuinely react to the projectiles.

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#215 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#216 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypnozzz: I think you missed the multiple fights where Oliver did use trick arrows as an opening move. The common factor between those would be that he was fighting in the street/some other open environment where trick arrows could be used freely. Against Drakon and Jason, he was fighting in an enclosed space where any trick arrow had the potential to horribly backfire on him. In this thread, Oliver and Matt start out in the street, with a considerable distance between them. So the proper conclusion would be that Oliver would use a trick arrow as an opening move.

Moreover, even if he doesn't, he will then see just how fast Matt is, and immediately realize that trick arrows would be the better option. Just as you yourself said, when he first met Drakon, he didn't use a trick arrow and was overwhelmed by his speed, the like of which he had never witnessed. In their second encounter, he was smarter and used trick arrows because they're the proper counter to speed. I don't know if Matt is faster than Drakon or not, but either way the gap should not be too significant in my opinion, which means that the moment Oliver sees just how fast Matt is, he will associate it with Drakon, and boom goes the bomb arrow. The difference between this battle and Oliver's rematch with Drakon, as I said, is the environment: here it's an open street, against Drakon he was inside a building, and that means that here he can be far more trigger-happy and unleash the big guns, instead of just retreating and waiting for a chance to use one glue bomb.

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#217 Posted by Lvenger (36295 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Well someone must have mentioned it otherwise I wouldn't have made that post in the first place.

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#218 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: If you say so. But it's not a likely tactic either way, he never used it in a situation like this to the best of my memory.

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#219 Edited by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper

I think you missed the multiple fights where Oliver did use trick arrows as an opening move. The common factor between those would be that he was fighting in the street/some other open environment where trick arrows could be used freely. Against Drakon and Jason, he was fighting in an enclosed space where any trick arrow had the potential to horribly backfire on him. In this thread, Oliver and Matt start out in the street, with a considerable distance between them. So the proper conclusion would be that Oliver would use a trick arrow as an opening move.

Again my mentioning of Drakon and Jason isn't an attempt to prove a conclusive lack of trick arrow use. I made a side comment about how I just find it ironic that Drakon has been so heavily relied upon when Oliver's first encounter with him is so far from the favored gameplan against Matt. And the close quarters bit doesn't stop him from using certain trick arrows. It just stops him from using his more wide range arrows.

I didn't miss multiple fights where Oliver has used trick arrows as an opener. On the reverse I just didn't miss the plethora of sequences where he doesn't spam a bunch of AOE bullcrap at the enemy, especially if that enemy is unknown. I'm not going to say one way or another how Oliver will make his first move, just like I haven't given my vote on who I think would win here. I just think that the arguments in support of Ollie are neglecting his actual character, and instead you guys are painting a picture to where his trick arrows are second nature. Of course he uses them often and if someone were to read a respect thread they'd think he's some trick arrow slinging maniac, but frequent use of trick arrows doesn't mean that's directly what he uses at the start of most match ups. If we were to go throughout every issue he's appeared in I think we'd find he leans on regular arrows far more than the alternative. Of course that'd be a ridiculous thing to take the time to do, so i'm just going off how I recall him being portrayed in the number of GA books i've read.

Moreover, even if he doesn't, he will then see just how fast Matt is, and immediately realize that trick arrows would be the better option. Just as you yourself said, when he first met Drakon, he didn't use a trick arrow and was overwhelmed by his speed, the like of which he had never witnessed. In their second encounter, he was smarter and used trick arrows because they're the proper counter to speed. I don't know if Matt is faster than Drakon or not, but either way the gap should not be too significant in my opinion, which means that the moment Oliver sees just how fast Matt is, he will associate it with Drakon, and boom goes the bomb arrow. The difference between this battle and Oliver's rematch with Drakon, as I said, is the environment: here it's an open street, against Drakon he was inside a building, and that means that here he can be far more trigger-happy and unleash the big guns, instead of just retreating and waiting for a chance to use one glue bomb.

I think we've drawn different conclusions from the Drakon encounter. What I see is that it took him a beating delivered to make a common sense decision, and I don't really think that translates to him handling Daredevil with any more care. For one I don't believe Daredevil is quite as fast in terms of raw movement speed (not reactions or combat), so I don't think he'll jump to the conclusion of how fast Matt really is by the speed at which he's being overtaken. I think the feeling out process will play out more for both characters. For instance I feel Oliver will spend more time trying to tag Matt with his go to (regular arrows) instead of just bombing the street. Whether this means anything in the long run I don't know. Like I said i'm undecided, but I feel like GA hasn't been portrayed correctly here.

Your take on things seems to be more reasonable than lubub, so I think we can find some middle ground. We just have different interpretations of events, whereas on the other hand I feel lubub has directly misconstrued specific instances almost on purpose.

instead of just retreating and waiting for a chance to use one glue bomb.

Just to be clear here he didn't retreat so much as he was stabbed through the hands and left alive by the mercy of Drakon. They then fought a while later.

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#220 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypnozzz: Please tag me with the "Reply" button in future, I didn't get your notification.

You're going to have to let me in on this context of yours because I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have a single trick arrow within his quiver.

For instance he had a grenade arrow in the issue directly before the Drakon fight, and since he spent the night at Joanna Pierce's house he had the same quiver with him.

No Caption Provided

He was going to meet someone, and the last panel clearly has him shocked that Drakon is there. He wasn't expecting a fight.

I'm not buying the whole "shock" bit against Drakon btw. Well I am buying it in the sense that he may have been too stupid or "shocked" as you call it to use any trick arrows, but I don't think it proves anything in Oliver's favor here. He was shocked about Drakon's speed (which may be the case against Daredevil) and he didn't do anything to mitigate that advantage in terms of trick arrows.

The scan I provided in my last post literally shows that he wasn't carrying any trick arrows. As he visibly reacts to Drakon's speed and Drakon's introductory issue has people doubt him because of his appearance, it's clear that the same thing is happening here, especially with Ollie's reaction.

Drakon then concussed him and overwhelmed him with strikes, which again you claim if Daredevil does this then Oliver will change tactics. Of course there was nowhere to run in Ollie's encounter with Drakon, but I am of the opinion that he had other resources within his quiver that he could've used.

Well yes, Ollie only started to employ those tactics after his Natas training. If it was before it, like it is here, he wouldn't have the skill to last against Daredevil so I agree with you on that. And since you agree that there was no room to make distance, why are you bringing it up as a point? Plus, Drakon is much faster than Matt, being able to run over to the arrow timer Roy Harper, slit his throat before he can react and move back without any movement on his part being noticed.

Unless you can cite any specific comment by GA commenting on his lack of trick arrows i'm not buying it. Warranted he didn't appear to have the glue arrow he then brought to the second encounter, but that's a single arrow.

Again not buying this. He had the same quiver he'd already shown to have trick arrows in, and it's not like he used them all fighting the mutated beasts in the scan featured above. That's the only instance where he used a trick arrow during the fight so i'd say he has some left over.

You not believing it =/= It not being true

The scan shows it.

Overall point being Ollie isn't as likely to whip out trick arrows as fast and as frequently as people are claiming here. Not that the specific fight against Drakon is conclusive evidence of this, but as I pointed out earlier I find it funny that this instance against Drakon really doesn't exemplify the gameplan you've chosen for Ollie.

This is the exception, not the rule. And it was in an encounter where Ollie was fighting somebody he underestimated and literally didn't have any trick arrows on him. Poor example. It's contradicted by all the times he's opened up fights with trick arrows.

As for the quiver being empty . . . when?

It looked to be fully stocked in multiple panels during their fight. Furthermore the very scan you featured disproves what you are claiming:

He has multiple arrows falling out of his quiver both on panel and possibly off panel. You so badly want to believe in this fictitious version of Oliver and this fictitious version of events that you are failing to see reality, and even when you look at specific scans you are attempting to warp the facts.

Still salty? Lol. We can literally compare the arrows seen there with the appearances of trick arrows we've seen when he's used them other times and see that they're conventional arrows. And you're admitting that Green Arrow didn't have his glue arrows, so are you saying that he brought everything except for that one, which we know he brings to random encounters? There doesn't need to be a statement on it, as the comic outright shows it.

Facing a known foe like Jason Todd is hardly proof that he'll know how capable Matt is in this match up. Ollie goes up against masked foes all day and plenty of them aren't that impressive. He won't specifically be tuned into Matt's abilities just because he's wearing a red devil outfit.

I'm saying that he won't underestimate Matt, and because of his appearance he'll be serious from the start. And which "Plenty of masked foes" are you referring to? Because he usually uses trick arrows on them, unless I'm missing something.

Also I don't like the way you're painting Oliver as some trick arrow god who's always looking to blow up, shock, freeze or incapacitate all of his foes using trick arrows as his go to. His specific comment against Jason was that it makes it harder to use his bow, which makes sense. Not that he's like "oh darn this area is too small to use trick arrows like I do 24/7!" Certainly you're right that he can't use explosive arrows specifically, but to onlookers reading your post the tone you are using presents Ollie in a false light.

As I've shown in my previous posts, Ollie does regularly open up with trick arrows and it is also a part of his fighting style. You're trying to cherry-pick out of context showings to prove a false point. Jason has knowledge on Ollie's trick arrows and, as Ollie's thoughts show, the arena was geared towards Red Hood. Obviously he's going to pick an arena where Green Arrow can't make the most of his advantages, and in a great tactical showing, he compensated for that by using the environment.

Bias to a whole new level? Hey pal I have this cool friend called reality and he'd like to have a word with you. Anyway my point being painting foot shots as unstoppable is flat out bizarre.

Unstoppable? No. Unstoppable specifically to Daredevil? Yes. He doesn't have what's needed to counter it.

For instance Oliver was only able to catch Drakon in the foot, because Drakon foolishly caught an arrow (with a canister attached to it) practically saying "i'm not a regular arrow" in neon letters.

Nope. Oliver literally states, "Can't catch what you can't reach." There;s a reason he didn't aim at the chest after the glue arrow, which was most likely just to slow him down and to do some injury first.

As i've already pointed out I have a hard time believe Matt will be as liable to grab everything in sight like Drakon does. Considering the fact that you never responded to my initial comments i'm sure you concede that fact.

Which comments? I responded to everything you said.

As for my supposed bias about Red Hood i'm not using that scan in order to prove DD will block an arrow in a similar manner. I'm using it in order to point out the common sense notion that it isn't very hard to avoid an Arrow. It's not an unblockable or undodgeable feat. All DD needs to do is move his foot, and his radar gives him a direct idea of where the arrow will be fired directly before and after it's released.

You are underestimating how hard it is to dodge an arrow aimed at the foot. You can't just move your foot out the way, as Ollie has shown. To say Daredevil can would just be making assumptions based on things he hasn't done.

Provide actual evidence and I will concede that his equipment was as lacking as you make it out to be.

I already have. You just don't want to believe it.

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#221 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypnozzz: I think that the thing that makes me firmly believe that Oliver will use trick arrows as an opening move is as I said the setting. If you look back you will see that he uses trick arrows as an opening move almost in every fight that starts out in the open amd not inside a building/structure. It only makes sense if you think of it, since inside a building most trick arrows would be very hazardous to use obviously. It's very consistent in each and every of his incarnations barring Mike Grell's. He doesn't usually spam the trick arrows because he usually doesn't need more than one or two. But knowing/not knowing his opponent is hardly a factor because he consistently uses trick arrows like explosives, gas, electric and others even against the fodderiest of fodder who are barely even registered as a threat just because it's more efficient, it doesn't really have that much to do with his knowledge on the opponent. I do think that even one AOE trick arrow, let alone a volley of those, could give Oliver the win here. As you yourself said, Matt isn't a speed-freak and he definitely can't outrace the area of effect of a triggered explosive, impact grenade, electric surge or anything similar that he so often uses.

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#222 Posted by lubub55 (12832 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypnozzz: And I'm going to be busy for awhile, so if you respond I may have to destroy you again in a couple of days.

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#223 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@hypnozzz: And I'm going to be busy for awhile, so if you respond I may have to destroy you again in a couple of days.

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#224 Edited by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:

Please tag me with the "Reply" button in future, I didn't get your notification.

I tagged you and that should suffice. I guess next time i'll reply, tag and throw up a gif of party streamers if you really need all of that to get a notice that I responded to you.

He was going to meet someone, and the last panel clearly has him shocked that Drakon is there. He wasn't expecting a fight.

I'm aware. That doesn't make Oliver inept however. The fact that he doesn't use trick arrows isn't because he doesn't have them or because he was taken by surprise. He had more than one moment to use his other modes of attack, yet he didn't. I think that helps to prove my stance that he doesn't lean on trick arrows as much as you like to think he does. Again not that this one instance outright proves it, but you have relied on Drakon entirely too much in this match up when there's loads of context behind Ollie tagging him in their second encounter.

The scan I provided in my last post literally shows that he wasn't carrying any trick arrows. As he visibly reacts to Drakon's speed and Drakon's introductory issue has people doubt him because of his appearance, it's clear that the same thing is happening here, especially with Ollie's reaction.

At first glance it's probable that he's doubting Drakon, yet that thin veil of supposed superiority should've shattered once Drakon ran circles around him. The fact that he then tries multiple times to shoot him with regular arrows doesn't mean he didn't have trick arrows. It means despite going up against what appears to be a fast, competent foe he still leans on what's natural to him in a given situation..... regular arrows.

And again no your scan doesn't show a lack of trick arrows. There are unknown arrows in his quiver, some on the ground and the possibility that others fell out off panel. As i've shown he both had trick arrows in that very quiver and it was pretty darn full when he fought Drakon. We can agree to disagree on this if you like because it wasn't a the biggest issue I had with your posts. You have still yet to respond to my commentary on the context behind Ollie catching the overconfident Drakon.

Well yes, Ollie only started to employ those tactics after his Natas training. If it was before it, like it is here, he wouldn't have the skill to last against Daredevil so I agree with you on that. And since you agree that there was no room to make distance, why are you bringing it up as a point? Plus, Drakon is much faster than Matt, being able to run over to the arrow timer Roy Harper, slit his throat before he can react and move back without any movement on his part being noticed.

I think the training he got under Natas was overrated to be honest. From a tactics standpoint it's impressive, but that whole faze where he's some uber ninja version of Ollie using Natas techniques and carrying a Katana was short lived.

Also Drakon's speed in comparison to Matt's is meaningless. As i've already pointed out the reason Ollie was able to tag Drakon was entirely circumstantial and had a lot to do with Constantine as a character. I'm well aware of how fast Drakon is as i've read every issue he's appeared in.... it just doesn't matter.

You not believing it =/= It not being true

The scan shows it.

No it doesn't. I brought actual proof to the table. You tried to pawn off the scan as him having one arrow left when he had multiple both in and outside of his quiver.

This is the exception, not the rule. And it was in an encounter where Ollie was fighting somebody he underestimated and literally didn't have any trick arrows on him. Poor example. It's contradicted by all the times he's opened up fights with trick arrows.

And all the times he's opened up with trick arrows are the exception, not the rule. He's more likely to open up with regular arrows. He carries more of them, uses them more often and he's facing a lone combatant without any knowledge of his capabilities. Does this mean he won't use trick arrows? No. I do think it means he won't start off by spamming what he doesn't use as regularly as regular arrows.

And as i've already pointed out you still haven't proven that his quiver was scarce of any trick arrows. This is becoming a broken record.

Still salty? Lol. We can literally compare the arrows seen there with the appearances of trick arrows we've seen when he's used them other times and see that they're conventional arrows. And you're admitting that Green Arrow didn't have his glue arrows, so are you saying that he brought everything except for that one, which we know he brings to random encounters? There doesn't need to be a statement on it, as the comic outright shows it.

Wrong for aforementioned reasons.

Unstoppable? No. Unstoppable specifically to Daredevil? Yes. He doesn't have what's needed to counter it.

He doesn't have the ability to move his foot out of the way when his radar tips him off to the exact location the arrow will land before it's anywhere near him? Are you serious?

Do yourself a favor and take a pencil, soda can or whatever you have sitting next to you and drop it near you foot. Do you need a shield to protect your foot? Or can you just move your foot out of the way? Are we on the same page now? Because i'm on the side of common sense.

Nope. Oliver literally states, "Can't catch what you can't reach." There;s a reason he didn't aim at the chest after the glue arrow, which was most likely just to slow him down and to do some injury first.

A quip stated by Oliver means nothing. Drakon if not for the glue wouldn't have been bothered by the arrow. Furthermore going out of his way to catch arrows is a trait synonymous with Drakon alone here. He makes a point of grabbing everything out of the air for the purpose of embarrassing his opponent, whereas Matt is more liable to just move his foot.

Do you not understand the concept of avoidance over blocking an object?

Which comments? I responded to everything you said.

I posted twice before the comment you responded to.

You are underestimating how hard it is to dodge an arrow aimed at the foot. You can't just move your foot out the way, as Ollie has shown. To say Daredevil can would just be making assumptions based on things he hasn't done.

As Oliver has shown by shooting at a blinded opponent who has the specific goal to catch every arrow fired his way. I'm almost at a loss for words right now.

I already have. You just don't want to believe it.

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Reality is a reality whether you like it or not.

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#225 Edited by Vertigo- (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Yeah, we'll just drop that issue. Since we both agree that he can react to projectiles after they've been fired.

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#226 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Yeah, we'll just drop that issue. Since we both agree that he can react to projectiles after they've been fired.

Lol...

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#227 Edited by Vertigo- (17599 posts) - - Show Bio
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#228 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: ya know, if you've got a point to make, feel free.

I made a lot of points so far, but my point with this last remark is that it's funny how you argued for so long on something you really agree on.

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#229 Edited by Vertigo- (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: well, I just disagreed on classifying what Matt does as "aim blocking", because I don't see it that way. That was my only gripe. The second Lubub agreed with me that Matt is fast enough to react to bullets after they're fired, I had no further reason to maintain the argument.

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#230 Posted by decaf_wizard (16739 posts) - - Show Bio

You know its really refreshing to see the sheer amount of stubbornness some users have even after being rekt multiple times

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#231 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

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#232 Edited by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Yes, you're overblowing Daredevil's speed. We all know he's absurdly fast. But he's not faster than an explosion. You know, explosions go off at anywhere around 6,000 and 10k FPS. So much faster than any bullet fired from any weapon that it's not even funny. He's also definitely not faster than an electron, such as the electrons in the electric field created by an electric arrow.

Why do you keep mentioning the speed of the explosion... Nobody, until now, has claimed Daredevil can outrace explosions or whatever you're trying to imply here and the claim didn't even come from Daredevil's side, but yours. Daredevil will be unaffected by the explosions because he will start moving before the arrows are even fired, i think i've made that pretty damn clear in my previous posts. The point of Daredevil moving and reacting to the arrows, is to avoid them from expanding on impact and creating an area of effect that might damage him. Avoidance is expected even before Green Arrow decides which trick arrow he will use on a complete stranger.

You should stop assuming the arrows will hit the desire target, or to be more precise, stop assuming Daredevil can't dodge the arrows, even if they are shot at the floor near him. I think it has already been proven time and time again his movement and reactionary speed are enough to overcome such a simplistic and criminally deprecative tactic.

No, I need YOU to get something through YOUR skull. Daredevil's perceptive and reactionary speed counts for peanuts when an explosion or an electric surge or anything of the sort goes off a meter away from him. He's not Wally West that can outrace electrons and explosions. You're still picturing Green Arrow trying to put an arrow through Matt's arm or knee or something, which obviously won't work, but it just fits your scenario so you're sticking to it.

I don't need to get anything at this point considering you've been repeating yourself all this time while creating scenarios completely out of character for Green Arrow, on top of that seemingly tunnelvisioning the fight into thinking Daredevil will start moving when the arrow freaking explodes right next to him. I just can't see how can you keep repeating yourself over something that barely has a base to sustain itself, the only reasonable justification for you to do it is to assume Daredevil is too slow for the arrows, because it seems you think he won't move before the arrows explode next to him, i mean, you wouldn't have any other reason to come and start explaining to me how fast explosions are.

The problems are not the explosions, it's the freaking arrows that are too damn slow for Daredevil to be affected, specially since the area of effect is hardly significant to begin with. Now, even if those arrows explode somehow near him, he can still jump away in an instant, considering he did as much against Bushwhacker between Daredevil vs Punisher #2 & #3 while he was busy fighting Punisher, who by all means is a bullet timer who couldn't escape as fast as Daredevil and on top of that saving a girl that was inside the room with him.

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By Punisher's own admission, the entire room, which is exponentially bigger than whatever you've shown about Green Arrow's explosive arrows, was engulfed in fire and you can even see Punisher getting caught up in the fire by surprise, at the same time perfectly noticing Daredevil escaping unbothered, with another human being on his arm slowing him down, unscathed. Why would you keep going for this agenda, isn't there ANYTHING else Green Arrow can do besides hope for the best and use area of effect arrows, something Daredevil isn't even new to. Hell, for the sake of avoiding you to keep repeating yourself over such a ridiculous premise, what about the fact Daredevil dodged an even greater explosion from almost a point blank position and managed to escape harmless, ONCE AGAIN, as showcased back in Daredevil vol.4 #12?

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I'm not picturing the arrow ever touching Matt, because from the start that would be absurd. All i've been arguing so far is against this "area of effect" arrows you're blowing out of proportion while underrating Daredevil's movement and reactionary speed in conjunction. Again, Daredevil WON'T be affected by any arrows besides sonic arrows, if Ollie actually opts to use one of two of this.

No, Daredevil can't outrace a bullet nor an arrow. He can dodge/deflect them, yes, but he can't outrace them, again - he's not Wally West. He's still, after all, just a human with very keen senses. When an arrow comes whistling his way, he can jump aside - sure. But that won't help him when the arrow's whole purpose in the first place is hitting the floor beside him and exploding.

Right, technicalities. By outrace i meant he can react to both effortlessly, either moving out of the way or deflecting them like the rather slow projectiles they are for Daredevil. Daredevil can cover rather large distances with his moves and with his billy clubs. The fact you're still ignoring this is beyond me.

What about the instances that I've already posted? Namely:

Viper... Are ANY of those examples showcasing what you've been stating so far? Volley of explosive, cryogenic, gas arrows at the same time, let alone multiple volleys? You showcased him shooting 2 arrows whose purpose was to create a connection between them to release the discharge to begin with. The second example showcases Ollie shooting a volley of gas arrows against MULTIPLE OPPONENTS and the third example by your own admission he already knew Deadshot and what was he capable of, needless to say, a volley of flash arrows, by all means useless against Daredevil.

Firing volleys of arrows is a common move for him, especially as an opening move. And that's not counting times he started a fight with volleys on non-trick arrows.

I never doubted he used volley of arrows... I've been consistently questioning your thought process behind the premise, Green Arrow will shoot a volley of explosive arrows against a single character and you have NOT provided any evidecen to support this, and to be honest, it seems you're simply taking that part of his character away to fit your improbable scenario. Yes, he can shoot 3 arrows at the same time, gas arrows against multiple targets, ONE flash arrow and two normal ones against Deadshot (with an actual purpose behind) and 2 electric arrows obviously to create a circuit between them. Should i ask ONCE again for the evidence supporting whatever you're stating at this point?

I want you to show me this insanely wide volley of explosive arrows being shot simultaneously.

Hopefully your next reply actually proves your point instead of going around it. This is the third time i ask for this.

On the other hand, when has Daredevil ever did anything like entering buildings and trying to sneak up on an opponent that starts in plain sight? The one with the sniper doesn't count because the sniper actually was on top of the building, he had to go there. Against Deadpool he just danced around the gunfire until he got close enough to him for melee. This tactic will fail miserably against any of Oliver's trick arrows, no matter how you want to twist it to fit your false narrative.

You're asking the wrong questions. What you should take from what i've been stating is Daredevil ALWAYS tries to level the field on every conceivable occasion he finds himself at disadvantage. He did it against Captain America back in Daredevol vol.3 #2 when he was in plain sight, actually knew who he was fighting against and had his radar sense affected by Captain America's own preparation against Daredevil.

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Literally... Going inside a building to level the field. Then again, the point here is not going inside the building, but leveling the field, which in this particular scenario the sole thing Daredevil can do is shorten the gap and engage Green Arrow in close combat, ergo, going inside a building to level the field is completely understandable with those factors taken into account. You on the other hand, claiming a hypothetical volley of explosive arrows and then some more, from a distance, against a character he has no knowledge about, is nothing but a ridiculous stretch. For the sake of the argument, Daredevil did the same thing, actually entering another building that was completely dark inside to level the field and get Black Widow back to safety after she was shot by Echo using a sniper with poisoned bullets.

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He even explains why he does it, so the instance isn't even leaving room for interpretation. Daredevil will opt to level the field and it is nothing but reasonable to assume Daredevil going inside buildings, alleyways and taking cover is expected in such a match. The fact you're asking for this proof feels more like resentment instead of a legit question with the purpose of exploiting characterization against Daredevil.

No, you're ignoring context against Deadshot:

No i'm not, i mean, he still tried to use an incendiary arrow against him instead of shooting something that would disable Deadshot like a net arrow or even electric arrow. He chose to use an actually lethal arrow and the only reason he pretty much shot the arrow so absurdly off target was because his vision was adjusting, just like Deadshot's.

He was purposefully going easy on Deadshot because Deadshot was half-blinded by Oliver's magnesium flare arrow.

You mean the same way Oliver was also half-blinded and still chose to use a rather lethal arrow instead of an incapacitation arrow like glue, net or even cryogenic? Give me a break now.

Yes, we saw how good it did him:

If you actually knew who Namor was you would know why this feat is important. Namor is an atlantean, which by physiology are completely impervious to nothing short of intense high voltage discharges, Namor being one who can generate electricity the same way Electro does by his Eel ascendance. The fact the discharge was powerful enough to actually daze someone like Namor which on top of having a racial trait that allows him to absorb electricity was at the time ridiculously durable, capable of overpowering The Thing and fighting Hulk and Thor head on, means the discharge was quite powerful and Daredevil, even though it affected him a lot, was conscious. Needless to say, the street light busted there was an incandescent one, which is one of the few nowadays that use a series of high voltage circuits. Daredevil tanking that discharge is nothing more than a good feat, specially when insulated materials turn into "poor conductors" the higher the voltage or heat is.

He was completely knocked out by that electric surge. And since it was just a random electric cable from a felled lamp-post there's nothing to suggest that it was any more powerful that Oliver's electric surge, that is powerful enough to hurt Deathstroke even though it didn't touch him directly, then it's safe to assume that Green Arrow's electric arrow will work very effectively against Matt.

He wasn't, he was conscious and still capable of grabbing Namor's arm hard enough to not let go. It wasn't a random pole and you need to put more thought on this considering how you went all the way into deep definitions with tear gas. What i can assure you is that i hardly doubt Ollie's arrows contain as much voltage as an old incandescent street light. I'm not buying these electric arrows, Daredevil has proven more than enough times he's actually resistant to this type of discharges (NOT THAT DAREDEVIL WILL ACTUALLY BE AROUND THE AREA OF EFFECT TO BEGIN WITH).

Also, his insulated suit didn't really help him here either:

Ah... Daredevil vol.4 #7. You must read between the lines if you don't want to sound completely ludicrous when you attempt to lowball a character. The fact Daredevil was electrocuted in the air, by Wakandian weaponry nonetheless, down to a swamp and was still completely capable of keep fighting back until wakadian sonics were used on him means he was barely affected to begin with, specially when it was all part of a plan to get into the wakadian palace.

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Anyways, let's keep this up shall we? Given the fact you're going to push a lowballing agenda now, let's cite Gambit vol.3 #11 when Daredevil flat out withstood the electrical discharge of Constrictor, someone who by all means has flat out knocked out Deadpool even though the latter is amazingly resistant and has managed to harm and temporarily disable Ben Grimm.

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This is increasingly impressive considering in the same issue Daredevil was completely impervious to his attack once he tried to use it on both Daredevil and Gambit at the same time and he was still flat out capable and agile enough to keep fighting. Again, do not take this proof as if i'm somehow conceding the point of the arrows actually getting to him, i still think it's ridiculous to think the arrows will land anywhere near him for him to be affected.

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You're assuming that Matt will know it's an electric arrow to begin with. Sensing electric vibrations in the air won't help him when the vibrations only go off when they're a meter away from him, because again - he can't outrace electrons.

Right. What's stopping him from not being where the arrows land again? I mean, this is exhausting at this point, you have provided no counter whatsoever for Daredevil's speed.

Where does that 5 meters area of effect come from? Let's look at the scan once more:

That's the size of your average concierge center desk. Small as hell nonetheless.

So let's see here... the whole office floor was covered with ice, proof being that the fire covered the entire office and the ice put it all out. Now let's go with your 5 square meters theory, although it's completely unfounded and most probably false, but hey - I'm nothing if not a good sport. Now, obviously the ice stopped covering the floor when it ran out of floor to cover, right? But we can see that is completely covered the walls too, which means that if there was more floor to cover, it would have been covered as well. And that already adds more than 3 more meters to your 5 meter theory. But what happened when the ice ran out of walls to cover? It started going to the ceiling. At least 1 more meter added to it. So the ice covers more than 5 square meters. Far more. Daredevil can't outrace that either, since it's very evident from this scan that it goes off instantaneously.

Actually, it is you and Lubub who got the initiative to start assuming a desk is an entire office floor. The ice in the floor was because it is a detonation that expands in most directions, i mean, i don't know if i'm not getting what you're saying but you can't possibly think the ice was simply spreading through the floor until it covered the ceiling as well. Either way, i think you're miscalculating the explosion, but i couldn't care less at this point as Daredevil won't be near the explosion to begin with. My god.

REACT, yes. REACT as in, making a move to avoid it. He can't cover more than 9 meters in less than a second. That's absurd. He. Is. Not. Wally. West.

Actually, he freaking can, as i showed you in this same post. Hopefully you don't sweep this feat under the rug and keep repeating yourself over and over. He's not Wally West and you don't need to be Wally West to cover that distance in less than a second... The top burst foot speed recorded is 44.7KM/H which is about 12 meters per second, Daredevil by all means is peak human and that's not even counting his superhuman reflexes and his billy clubs that cover even more distance insanely fast.

No, I'm just trying to explain to you that Matt may be able to react fast enough but he can't move out of the area of effect fast enough, because he isn't... well I'm starting to repeat myself now. And yes, Oliver will predict where Matt is going to go, this is what makes for a good marksman - and Oliver Queen is definitely one of, if not THE best. Moving out of the way of a bullet is impressive, it really is. But it's nothing compared to the velocity of an explosion, and much less to that of an electron.

So he's not moving fast enough even though he starts moving even before the arrow is shot from Oliver's bow... Because he isn't? What the hell does this even mean? You're in denial. The explosion might as well take place meters away from Matt. Arrows are too slow for shit's sake. I'm not even addressing the underserved title you've given him, where's Roland Deschain? Where's Death from East of West? Where's Shooter from Luther Strode? Where's The Killer from Wanted? He doesn't even compare. What you just said is in every essence of the word, massive wank.

And yes, the arrow did cover the entire room. You can see in the top panel that the whole place was on fire, and the arrow put it out completely. No way around it.

Right... The entire room... If the room was a desk.

The arrow isn't supposed to touch him which is a point I've been making since the beginning and you're trying to ignore.

I'm not ignoring it. As i said previously... My first post was already taking into account the arrows won't touch him any time soon. This area of effect... This massively overrated area of effect... is not touching him either. Again, hopefully you see the damn feats, can't wait to see your counter-argument there.

OK, and he's supposed to move away far enough from the effective range of the arrow in less than a second? For the sake of originality, I'll say that he is not Barry Allen.

For all i care you can name the whole Flash family... That's not denying what Daredevil has done.

You have failed to post a single feat from the last 45 years of Daredevil resisting gas thanks to these filters. The burden of proof is not on me, it's on you. You posted ONE scan of Daredevil using that thing, from 45 years ago, and in a match he had prep for, against an enemy that he knows uses gas-based attacks (Daredevil states that he remembers his gas attacks from their last encounter). I can also post one-time feats of Green Arrow, it's easy. I can show you Green Arrow using lethal force with huge explosions that can fry Daredevil like a McDonald's chicken nugget the moment the fight begins, but I'm not doing it because debating with one-time occurrences is petty and it isn't how debating is done. C'mon, you know better than this, you're a veteran debater.

You should go ahead and read what "moving to goalposts" means before anything else. I posted one scan of Daredevil having the filters, then i posted another scan of Daredevil being rather impervious to tear gas, even though it had many ways to affect him besides making him tear the proof is already there and you haven't presented a single reason why the scan shouldn't be taken into account besides "It was 45 years ago" like there was some kind of reboot on the character. Daredevil stating he remembers the gas was because he was never attacked with gas previous to that encounter, specially gas that could control his mind.

Regardless... For the sake of the argument as i'm running out of juice and by juice i mean interest at this point, Daredevil can still hold his breath for 5 minutes, as he proved back in Daredevil vol.3 #14 when Doom's people was trying to put nanobots inside his brain. It worths to note the reason why he was holding his breath was because needless to say, he was in a 2 by 2 square glass prison completely submerged in gas without being able to escape... Nostril filters can only take you so far.

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It worths to note that Daredevil didn't know what type of gas it was even though he initially breath in part of it and noticed it was odorless and tasteless. If someone wasn't actually protected against gases, then that someone shouldn't have been breathing normally like that, specially with his experience.

You trying to lowball the area of effect that his arrows have is really pathetic, I know you a lot better than going for petty arguments like these, when it's evident in each and every scan that I posted that the area of effect is FAR larger than you're describing. And that's of each arrow individually, without taking in mind the fact that he will fire the arrows at volleys of 2 or more at a time like he very often does.

Lowballing would mean i would be nitpicking instances where the arrows are showcased in a lesser way than they would normally do, i'm far from doing that considering i'm using YOUR OWN EVIDENCE against you. The only pathetic thing here repeating yourself 5 times already over something that has been debunked since the first post. To be honest, this will be my last reply, i simply have no more interest in keep arguing over something that barely has a base to begin with. You and Lubub made sure to mutilate Green Arrow's characterization, surely overrated his capabilities and indirectly were consistently implying Daredevil isn't "as impressive" as he has been shown in this thread, even though it has been rather consistent whereas your case has repeated the same freaking instances thrice already. Good job.

Also, Green Arrow is as likely to use a sonic arrow as he is to use any other trick arrow. Hoping that he doesn't is cool, but is not guaranteed.

Green Arrow rarely uses them. Nobody is denying he's capable of using them, all we're saying is he won't and by the time he chooses to, it will be too late.

Give me a break, Clint's trick arrows don't hold a candle to Oliver's, not in potency nor in versatility, and also not in how often or how creatively he uses them. My thought process is the same as it was all along and you know it well enough. It's just you grasping for straws and lowballing on-panel showings in order to push your false narrative.

It doesn't matter if you think Green Arrow's arrows are better or more versatile, the point here is that Daredevil isn't new to trick arrows and knows he must pay attention to what he's being shot with. Needless to say, Hawkeye's has almost the same trick arrows as Oliver. The projection at this point is just disappointing.

You're very loose with your money then. Let me share an experience with you: in the IDF, every tyro in boot camp goes through a very painful experience called "NBC Tent", or "Hazmat Tent" if you will, in rough translation. The process is simple: You go into a large tent that is filled with CS gas, with a gas-mask on. After a few seconds you are instructed to take the mask off, and you have to remain there until you are told you can leave (which is usually around 30 seconds from the moment you take off your mask). When I got in the tent, my skin started to feel like I'm covered in sizzling coals in less than one second. When I took off the mask, I couldn't breathe. Simple as that. The burning sensation in my eyes was the least of my worries at that point. Even when I got out into the fresh air, I still couldn't breathe for at least 5-10 more seconds. This Wikipedia article is wrong and misleading. I have had the "pleasure" of experiencing tear gas on other occasions since then, but this is my first, worst, and most traumatic memory of it.

Impressive... I still don't see how that denies the fact skin irritation comes after 20-30 seconds of exposure, most likely continuous. The fact you felt your skin burning or something comes from the factor a lachrymator or tear gas actually attacks pain receptors, but that doesn't mean your body's skin is going to react with irritation in 1 second. You are not denying what has been stated in the article, specially when the source material comes from testaments and scientific research. Regardless, i do not want to keep arguing this point anymore feel free to keep disagreeing.

Regarding Daredevil's counter to it - he has none, unless you prove that he used those nostril filters as standard gear (as in, without the prep and prior knowledge that he had against Killgrave), anywhere in the last 45 years. I don't see how he avoids being suffocated, especially when it's evident in the scan that the arrows go off instantaneously. I mean, look at the scan again. The flight-path of the arrows appears in the same panel as the huge cloud of tear-gas, that, just like any other AOE arrow - covers a very large area, larger than 5 meters.

You're moving to goalposts, this is a fallacious attempt to discredit evidence. Look, since this is my last reply, Daredevil proved to be flat out resistant to tear gas once again back in Daredevil vol.2 #57 when he was fighting against 107 Yakuzas at the same time ultimately almost beating most of them under 3 minutes and the remaining ones taken out by tear gas.

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Not only he didn't show any sign of breathing struggle or discomfort but the fact he also escaped in front of everybody and nobody knew where he went. It doesn't flat out state he has nostril filters but it sure as hell reasonably proves his consistency with gases. The nostril filters was only to provide a justification on why Daredevil is pretty much resistant to every gas, going from Killgrave's pheromones (actually resisting those once again in Daredevil vol.4 #9, quite recently) to tear gas and even fear gas. Honestly, i was simply hiding my guns because i restrain myself from showing every single instance in my repertoire considering i take advantage of ability to pin point consistency but to hell with it, Daredevil claimed once again he had nostril filters back in Daredevil vol.1 #358 (from 45 years to 21, i also have a more recent instance but i won't show all my cards for a Battle of the Week match) during his fight with Mysterio, where he proved to be completely immune and unaffected by his hallucination gases while stating his nose filters and the NYPD's Gas Masks protected them from it.

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I will not accept anything more than a concession from you at this point. Regardless, the area of effect of gases is understandable considering they are gases, the most volatile state of matter but as i said, gases have little effect on Daredevil.

Slapping them away isn't the best idea, because, y'know... that would set them off. For example here:

The impact was on the head, not on the stick. Daredevil hitting the arrow away is obviously by hitting the stick and not the head. Hell, every single arrow example showcased on Daredevil's end showcases him avoiding touching the arrow head to begin with and the one specifically cited for Daredevil slapping them away made it painfully clear he hit the stick and not the arrow head. C'mon now, i need you to FOCUS.

As you can see, it took no more than the gentlest touch to activate the sonic arrow.

Yep... On the arrow head nonetheless.

Besides, why would Matt deflect them? He doesn't know Green Arrow, and even if he knows that there's a trick arrow coming his way - he won't know its mechanism. When Green Arrow aims the arrow next to Daredevil, in front of Daredevil, etc - Matt would just think "Oh, what a lousy marksman, he can't even hit - " BOOM.

He doesn't need to know the mechanism, just that it is a booby trap arrow that might complicate things for him if he let's himself be affected by them. The fact he might choose to deflect or avoid the arrow is because he can smell Green Arrow's gear, i think we've been through this already and you conceded on this particular subject, in fact, your only concession so far. The last statement doesn't even deserve to be addressed, your perception of Matt's strategic and calculating mind is absurd and flat out idiotic.

I won't go over the size of the AOE again because I already have at least twice in this post alone.

Please, do us all a favor and don't.

And no, I haven't forgotten about Bullseye, but Bullseye to the best of my knowledge doesn't use explosives, electric fields, ice fields, sonics and gas as his weapon of choice.

Which is not marksmanship anymore but you doing a grocery shop list about his gear. Missing the point again.

False. The arrow that you saw going through that wall was a trick arrow - namely the bola arrow. But here are other examples of trick arrows showing the same level of penetration:

I'm basing myself over the evidence you choose to showcase, i don't go nitpicking and google searching for instances to lowball your character. Either way, i can't disagree, some arrows can go through metal and concrete, can't see the point of them if he can't:

  1. Hit the target in question because he's too fast.
  2. Hit the target in question because he can't see the target to begin with.

Also, in the fight against Deadshot, it again comes down to the context that I specified earlier - he was going easy on Deadshot. Moreover, Oliver himself was partially blinded by the magnesium flare too, so his aim wasn't at its best.

He wasn't, he was bluffing. He was missing arrows while stating his freaking vision was back to normal. Did you even read the issue at hand? Honest question.

As to hitting what he can't see, false again:

  • First-fires at a man that hides behind barrels.
  • Second-fires at a man hiding in a bush (the arrow is intercepted in mid air, but it was aimed perfectly nevertheless).

Let's see:

  • Sensing and perceiving someone who is obviously mediocrely hiding behind a barrel is not the same as shooting someone that is hiding behind something that covers him entirely or most of his body. Deadshot issue at hand contradict your statement.
  • This is completely unprovable besides claiming "It was aimed perfectly" and hope for people to simply nod at you. I don't think it was going to hit him.

Also, he has thermal vision, so hiding is out of the question:

Right, because the stupidest thing possible in this match will be performed by Green Arrow actually, when he tries to look for Daredevil and see him behind his covers with his Thermal Vision, then out of nowhere he gets hit with a billy club to the face he couldn't see because it was a non-heat generating projectile. What a superb strategy.

Since you go off about Daredevil reacting to bullets which are faster than arrows as evidence to show that he can react to arrows, I can go off about Oliver reacting to arrows (and bullets) which are faster than a thrown billy club as evidence to show that he can react to thrown billy clubs. Also, it's not like he's a stranger to people who use this weapon. Nightwing also uses trick shots with his escrima sticks, which are essentially exactly like Matt's clubs:

For shit's sake the speed is not what i'm aiming for but the complexity of his throw. Even the first freaing example i showcased here shows Daredevil's foe effortlessly dodging a billy club throw at him at a considerably fast speed but failing graciously to do the same when the same billy club ricocheted 7 freaking times around him ultimately hitting him with jaw breaking force. I mean... I don't even understand why it is so hard for you to see my point here... SPEED MEANS NOTHING.

The complexity of Daredevil's trick shots is completely irrelevant. Green Arrow can react to the billy clubs because they're not faster than arrows, to which he regularly reacts, he is familiar with trick shots himself as well as with people who use trick shots with a weapon identical to Matt;s billy clubs. Everything works in his favor here.

I can't even... I mean.. To hell with this.

No, it doesn't prove anything. On the contrary. Look at how many arrows Oliver has already used by that point. At least a dozen. And now look at his quiver. Looks pretty much full. That is enough proof that he has a ton of arrows at his disposal, and he won't run out of arrows in this fight.

How many arrows he carries is irrelevant. My point here is the fact he TAKES INTO ACCOUNT the arrows he uses and which arrows he's going to use. He doesn't blindly goes for explosive arrows let alone a volley of 5-6 arrows for the sake of it, even less against an unknown foe. Why do you keep ignoring the point, is like it's going straight over your head. I mean...

Nobody said he has infinite arrows. But he does have a crap-ton of arrows, and running out is nothing to worry about.

Is nothing to worry about but is something he takes into account in his character. WOW, this is turning increasingly hard to keep going.

As I said, it's irrelevant. Green Arrow has everything he needs in order to intercept a billy club trick-shot.

What part about Spider-Man, Iron Fist and Bullseye being incapable of dodging Daredevil billy club ricochet you do not understand. IT IS NOT ABOUT SPEED. My god, you know what, whatever. For the sake of the argument, here's Iron Fist being caught off guard by a billy club ricochet back in Daredevil vol.2 #87, you know, the same guy that can catch sniper bullets with his bare hands without looking.

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It is not about speed... It is not about speed. You showing me reaction feats is freaking useless for the point at hand, i don't know why i keep repeating myself at this point. It's just so simple... It doesn't need to be this hard.

So you're going for this argument again, suggesting that Daredevil is a speedster that can cover huge distances in split seconds, like you did with the sniper feat. That's just comics being hyperbolic of themselves which is utter BS. But you know what, let's go with it. Let me play by the same logic. Let us have a look at this showing here:

I'm sorry, it would be a suggestion if Daredevil didn't actually covered that much distance before someone like Bullseye could do anything. Daredevil didn't run, he used his billy clubs and got there pretty freaking fast, that's about it. Either way, the only one trying to theorize and label everything within specific parameters is you. I literally claim he did it in a shot moment, not a split second or something a speedster would do. I mean, you're the one throwing calculations here, i claimed something while using words people could arrive to their own subjective conclusions without ignoring the fact he did it in a short moment as it is implied in the comics.

Now, let me explain what we see here. Oliver lets loose four arrows one after another and is about to shoot a fifth in quick succession. How quick? That's an easy one. Let me be kind and say that an arrow is 50 cm long. The difference between each arrow that he fired and the one that comes afterwards is about half of the arrow, which means 25 cm (it's actually less but again I'm being kind). As we already know, an arrow travels at 300 FPS, which are 90 meters per second, which are 9,000 cm per second. Which means that an arrow travels 25 cm at 1/360 of a second. So, with indisputable and accurate calculations, Green Arrow can fire up to 360 arrows per second. Now that is actually pretty cool because you wouldn't find any machine gun in the world that comes close to even half that speed, and since Daredevil hasn't faced anything that can fire in those speeds then Green Arrow's rate of fire alone is enough to determine that he can turn Matt Murdock into Pin-Cushion Murdock in less than a second even without trick arrows.

But, this is just one of those cases of comics being hyperbolic of themselves and on-panel showings that can't be taken seriously. Just like a man who isn't a speedster crossing 2 blocks, changing his entire outfit and climbing a skyscraper in a few seconds. But, since you're going for utter BS showings, I will do it too. And therefore, Matt has no answer to someone who can fire arrows at him faster than he can think, let alone move. While his brain is still processing the information that there's an arrow coming his way, 10 more arrows will be already on their way to anywhere Matt might want to move.

And before you ask, yes, Oliver has other similar showings of this insane rate of fire.

I don't have more energy for this. I think Green Arrow's shooting speed is by all means superhuman, but nothing like 360 arrows per second. For all i care, watch this video and see for yourself what a human outside of comic book realms can do with a bow and arrow. Fact is, that human, showcased he can shoot 2 arrows with completely different speeds and trajectories AT THE SAME TIME, meaning someone like Oliver should be completely capable of doing so, which would somehow explain within the realm of "not sounding completely delusional" how he shoots his arrows, but for the sake of brain trauma, for ahead and post your feat.

I believe I answered that question. And again, "reactionary" means nothing when you can't get out of the way of an explosion fast enough.

And so did i.

OK, he can see the arrow coming. Will he expect it to penetrate his cover? No he will not.

Not really. Now, will Daredevil just stay there behind his cover and do absolutely nothing while Green Arrow chooses to shoot again? No, he will not, but i don't think this will get through your skull. I don't care at this point.

All of the above have been addressed and debunked. Regarding the possibility of him entering a building, well again I will ask when exactly has he taken these huge detours when his enemy is directly 100 ft in front of him, in plain, uh... "sight"? According to what you have showed this far, he opts for parkouring and cartwheeling his way toward the enemy while throwing billy clubs. Even against Bullseye who is also a long-range-based opponent, he just threw the billy club and climbed at him, no detours or anything.

No it hasn't and i already explained to you why Matt often goes inside buildings, to level the field. He went straight for Bullseye because he already knows how to battle his absolute most iconic arch-enemy. Regardless, disagreement or not, this is my closing argument.

Taking the fight onto a rooftop will be a bad idea since he will have nowhere to hide and nothing to use for cover, which is the only thing that somehow delays his inevitable loss down in the streets.

Nowhere to hide? It seems you have no idea how "a city roof" roofs look like.

OK, Daredevil isn't a monster. Do you think he can walk off a car exploding in his face?

I think he won't be even there when the car explodes.

Regarding the incendiary arrow, it again falls into the context of him going easy on Floyd.

Sure. You keep thinking that.

I already proved otherwise.

Obviously, hence why i keep debating the same point right now.

Wow, that is your worst reach yet my friend. You're not even grasping at straws anymore, you're grasping at thin air. First of all, it's completely evident that the binoculars were lowered and his eyes were fixed elsewhere. Second, he was preoccupied fighting against Brick when the arrow came at him, so it makes more sense that his eyes will be fixed on his opponent rather than on a pair of binocular lenses. Third, the lenses don't show any reflection. This is a nice theory you made, but just a theory nevertheless. Guesswork and assumptions will not take you very far against on-panel showings.

Quite hypocritical don't you think? Let me cite someone that has by far, used the most idiotic approach with the sole purpose of reaching i've seen in a long time.

"When Green Arrow aims the arrow next to Daredevil, in front of Daredevil, etc - Matt would just think "Oh, what a lousy marksman, he can't even hit - " BOOM."

~The_Red_Viper

Anyways, i said it was highly subjective, there's no need to go overboard over something that might or not be. Take your opinion and stick to it, i sincerely see absolutely nothing remotely "vital" about this point either way.

Except you don't have proof for your theory and the burden of proof is on you. On the other hand, I have listed 3 reasons to debunk your theory and I'm sure I can list more if I give it enough thought, but this theory is so far-fetched and baseless that it really isn't worth the time or the effort.

You've listed 3 reasons but you haven't debunked the theory. You just disagree with it. Again, i couldn't care less about this particular point. Sure, Green Arrow is fast, but slower than Daredevil considering the rather gigantic amount of feats overwhelming Green Arrow's case right now.

OK, so he will slice the billy club with his sword, or even swat it away with his bow, heck he can probably even catch it. He has the skills and the means to deal with the billy clubs here, they aren't even registered as a threat. They're a great weapon against a lesser foe, but not against Oliver Queen.

No evidence about this, so i'm just going to ignore it.

See my above response to utter BS showings.

Yeah. Consistent bullshit nonetheless.

Except your proof is not tangible. You're saying that Matt's movement speed exceeds the velocity of an explosion and/or of electrons which is false.You assume to know the size of the area of effect of the arrows although it is easily proven false by simply looking at the scans. His approach is definitely in-character, as I have already showed many different instances of Oliver starting a fight with a volley of several arrows, many of those showings involve one or more trick arrows of different types. I am not underrating Daredevil's speed and wits, I never suggested that he will sprint those 100 feet at Oliver's face like an angry bull. I acknowledged that he will evade and try using cover, but I also explained several methods of how Green Arrow can, and will, counter that. You are the one underrating here. You're underrating Oliver's accuracy, you're underrating his tactical thinking abilities, you're underrating his rate of fire (even without going for the faster-than-a-machine-gun calculations), and you're underrating the potency of his trick arrows - that he characteristically uses consistently - while claiming that outracing an explosion or an electric surge should be a walk in the park for Matt, and you also underrate Oliver's ability to react to a trick shot of a billy club, which has been addressed and proven numerous timesalready.

Look, this is turning flat out stupid at this point. Matt will react faster than the arrows travel, moving away from the area that might be affected. He's not outrunning the arrow AFTER IT LANDED BUT moving out of the way BEFORE IT EVEN STARTS TRAVELING.

It's not going to come to close combat. And it's not like Oliver is a little girl with pigtails, while he isn't as skilled as Matt when it comes to close quarters, he is definitely not a pushover and disarming him of his trick arrows in the ways you suggested will not be easy and will actually leave Matt open for a blow with the sword. Not to mention that, as I explained earlier, breaking the arrows will actually set them off.

Sure, because Matt will get pinned down with a cryogenic arrow 100 feet away from each other, then blown to pieces by an explosive arrow that was shot at the same time of the cryogenic arrow, while at the same time being affected by tear gas that was also shot at the same time, ultimately getting glued by guess what? Another arrow that was shot in the same volley. That's why it's not going to come to close combat right?

Breaking the arrows will do just that, break them, considering Hawkeye's arrows didn't set off and he has arrows that don't even need impact to be activated.

Also, he's welcome to try and touch the quiver:

I already showcased you he can feel electricity. He will know as much if he's close to the quiver and use his billy clubs to take it. Regardless, he can still steal the arrows without touching the quiver.

Ollie's quiver is electric and packs enough of a punch to knock Black Canary unconscious and make Barry Allen fall to the ground with a seizure for long enough to allow Oliver to run a considerable distance. Considering the awful track-record of Matt's "insulated suit", it's safe to say that this will knock him out cold.

Yup, such an awful track, specially when interpreted by someone who doesn't know squat about what he's arguing against.

No, you're the one missing the point mate. You're forgetting that jumping around bullets is all nice and dandy, but trying to jump around explosions is something else entirely. If Matt does manage to get THIS close to Green Arrow, which is very unlikely to begin with, he will be a very easy target for an AOE trick arrow. He is unlikely to be able to escape the area of effect even at 100 feet, but in this close range the idea is laughable. Also, I see no reason why Oliver won't just go for the same tactic as he did against Deadshot and just manually activate a sonic arrow, which would win the fight for him. I mean, if Matt DOES get this close to him while avoiding trick arrows, Ollie would realize that he is far too fast to try and take on in melee combat, and will use a smarter option instead. From that point it's very easy to cuff him with a handcuff arrow or something. Game over.

I'm not. You're just in denial about Daredevil's dodging and moving speed, specially with his billy clubs but that's fine, take to someone else, i'm done. As per the sonic arrow, i told you Matt has resisted being affected by sonic weapons in the past and even flat out cited the instance he did it while also proving he can keep fighting back, HARDLY A GAME CHANGER.

Exactly, so combined with his experience and knowledge of trick shots, as well as knowing and fighting alongside people who use a similar weapon with similar tactics, a billy club won't be much of a problem for him.

So. Much. EVIDENCE.

You're again grasping at less than straws. His enemies dodging the arrows is not the point, and is just a one time low-end feat for him as I'm sure you know very well (unless you're doubting Oliver's accuracy, in which case I will happily prove you wrong). The more logical explanation will be that he legitimately dodged the bullets, like you said you were going off the assumption that he has legit bullet timing feats. Again I will explain, that in the second panel, the thugs are taking the shot, which is evident by the "BLAM"'s and the muzzle flash, while Oliver is still right in front of them. In the very next panel Oliver is shown evading the bullets' trajectory, which can only mean one thing -he reacted to the bullets after they were fired.The thugs missing is unlikely seeing as they were many and each of them fired more than one shot.

Proof of this besides your interpretation, because Matt actually has feats showcasing his reactions after bullets have been fired.

How is that a false equivalence? He knows and has experience with trick shots and he has the reflex feats to suggest he can react to them. I really don't understand where I lost you, it only makes sense.

No. So far you got this:

  • Green Arrow knows trick shots. ✔
  • Green Arrow knows Nightwing. ✔
  • Green Arrow has good reflexes. ✔

What you don't have is this:

  • Feats for Green Arrow reacting to trickshots (preferably on Daredevil's end of complexity) ✘

You haven't showcased any evidence regarding the most important point about the ricochet... ITS COMPLEXITY, NOT ITS SPEED.

OK you really have to tell me how you do those ticks, it's really cool.

Google search check mark, any check mark on text that you like, copy it and paste it where you want it.

Conclusion: he is an arrow-timer, and therefore can react to things that move far slower than arrows.

I wholeheartedly agree. However, to keep it on context let me rephrase it:

Conclusion: He is an arrow-timer, and therefore can react to things that move far slower than arrows as long as they are not being ricocheted around him.

You can easily counter this if you showcase Green Arrow performing exactly what i'm asking for.

This cool theory was debunked already. Green Arrow can legit react to projectiles that come from any direction other than right in front of him.

Any direction? Or behind him?

Yes, but someone who reacts to something that's faster than a bullet, can definitely react to a bullet.

Yes, if the bullet is shot in straight line from behind or in-front of him, as per your evidence has shown us. It's funny how you can keep ignoring the fact this ricochet thing has nothing to do with speed, hell, take for example Bullseye's OWN WORDS against Solo, a character who by all means is a bullet timer and also a teleporter.

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The instance is painfully self-explanatory. Solo managed to successfully dodge a bullet shot straight at him from a ridiculously short distance while teleporting yet couldn't do the same against the same freaking bullet being ricocheted so many times it hit him from behind. Bullseye claimed as much... "Speed if not everything".

Also, I'm glad that Cap, Bullseye, Danny and Spidey were tagged by the clubs, good for them. And the Punisher effortlessly shot one down inches away from his face.

Because Punisher has a gun, is a happy trigger and was already aiming at the location where the ricochet came. Moreover, he knows Daredevil like the back of his hand. Green Arrow does not and contrary to Green Arrow, Punisher does have feats dodging ricochet projectiles. Do not try to sell Green Arrow like Punisher when what i've been asking several times is the sole thing that still differentiates both of them.

Green Arrow has consistent showings that suggest he can react to projectiles with higher velocity than a billy club that come from awkward angles, as well as knowledge on trick shots as well as history fighting alongside people who use the same weapon in the same way, and other characters' low-end showings don't change that. Oliver has not a single bad enough showing to suggest that he will be tagged by the billy clubs.

It is not about speed.

Also, you gotta tell me how you do those X's too.

Same as the check marks.

I'm not assuming anything and I never said Green Arrow will win easily, but a hard-earned win is still a win. All I'm doing is explaining time and time again why the approach I suggested is perfectly in-character for Oliver to use and why it's good against Daredevil. You, on the other hand, assume that Oliver will just stand there like a chump and try to snipe Daredevil. Didn't it cross your mind that he will work to increase the gap all the while?

I never assumed Oliver would just stand there, i wouldn't dare to take either characters out of their characterization to fit a narrative. However, the only thing i've actually stated all this time is that Daredevil will close the gap, how much and how hard it will be is completely subjective at this point and irrelevant to argue, specially when i started arguing with a pretty decent and balanced match in mind. Do not put words in my mouth.

That's actually subjective and it really isn't an important point, but he definitely is more versatile than Matt and versatile enough to counter anything that he might bring to the table.

Yes, he's more versatile, although i haven't seen any counter for the rather simplistic set of abilities Matt brings here besides false equivalence.

Well I chose to underline the key part as well. You're just stating that Daredevil can move fast enough to avoid being tagged by explosions, electric fields, ice fields, sonics or gas, while providing all of zero feats to back that up. In fact there were several feats presented by others here showing Daredevil failing to escape explosions. For example:

In the top panel of the first page, it is even evident that he knew he was about to get hit with an explosion, and he still ran all of 2 steps before being blown away. In a city setting that you keep bringing up as if it were a huge game changer. Knowing that the explosion is coming makes zero difference. And yes, of course it was from close range, but it was far slower than an arrow as well. Also the explosion was pretty small considering that the man who threw the explosive at him was not even knocked back by it, and Matt himself was evidently hurt.

Feats are already posted in the beginning of this post. You nitpicking instances, again, you clearly know nothing about (google can only take you so far) only makes you look bad. The instance is from Daredevil vol.1 #168 and just prior to that guy throwing his molotov Daredevil was busy trying to get information from Turk Barrett and was not paying attention to the supposed "wino" that attempted to murder them both later. Not to mention he freaking attempted to save a fully grown adult while escaping.

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On top of that, it was clearly raining, which makes it exponentially harder for Matt to use his Radar Sense, which is what gives me a 360 degree view of his surroundings and almost incapable of being surprised. He stated his Radar Sense becomes harder to use with the rain back in Daredevil vol.1 #222 as well as during his more recent fight with Ikari back in Daredevil vol.3 #25 respectively. That means Matt didn't have any means to actually survive being assaulted with that explosive at that moment, yet he still made it.

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I would suggest you to actually ask for the proof instead of searching for it yourself. You and Lubub are doing nothing more than take things out of context every time you post something about Daredevil and it is of bad taste to do so, really.

I showed several occurrences of Oliver starting a fight with a volley of arrows, including trick arrows, even before this post. You had the evidence all along, you just chose to ignore it. Merlyn's statement is irrelevant because he was having an archery contest with Oliver, it wasn't just a regular fight. Again you're missing the context:

Shooting 3 gas arrows or 2 electric arrows or 2 normal arrows and 1 flash arrow is hardly a volley... The highest amount of trick arrows shot you've shown so far are three, gas arrows nonetheless against MULTIPLE OPPONENTS. You haven't showcased a single instance to justify Green Arrow shooting a volley of explosive arrows against a single target. Regardless, i'm not ignoring any context, that particular context is completely irrelevant to my actual point, but since you have the tendency to miss it, stick with your point, i'm not wasting more time making myself clear.

And don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally, it's all in good sportsmanship. If you think I'm a softie because of that Hulk thread from a few days ago then you have the wrong idea.

Good to hear.

He has no showings that suggest he's fast enough to outrace explosions, let alone something much faster like an electric surge. He does have showings that explicitly show the exact opposite. His ninja-ness is nice and all, but not against Oliver who has keen senses and awareness that allow him to detect unseen opponents, mapping arrows that can give him the full picture of all his surroundings, and thermal goggles that render any stealthy approach completely useless. Volleys of trick arrows are an opening move that Oliver has used numerous times in the past and there's no reason to assume that he won't use it here as well, you choosing to ignore those showings that I posted more than once is your own problem and frankly, I'm really surprised at you, I know you're better than flat-out ignoring your rival debater's showings.

He has showings flat out dodging an explosions at almost point blank distances. The fact you'll keep mentioning the Flash family as if it was something only they could do is beyond the point. Captain America, Batman and even Deadpool have this kind of feats. Everything you've stated has been addressed so far and i can fall behind the fact Green Arrow's senses and awareness is top notch, but that hasn't stopped Daredevil from flat out ambushing people, like Wolverine, of all people, during Marvel Comics Presents vol.1 #151.

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Ambushing is on the table, but it's not something i would put much effort in pushing forward, even if he manages to ambush Green Arrow, it will hardly change the difficulty of achieving the win here. Anyways, i'm not addressing your summary, i'm on the verge of losing it and had to write this down within 3 days precisely because of the hard time i had repeating myself over and over, as far as i'm concerned, everything has been countered and addressed. Don't take this the wrong way though.

Summary

  • Daredevil is fast enough to avoid being affected by most trick arrows.
  • Daredevil is skilled enough to stomp Green Arrow in close quarter combat.
  • Daredevil's gear has been proven to be consistent even though it hasn't been mentioned 70 times in his publication.
  • Daredevil is completely capable of closing the gap and level the field while fighting on his turf.
  • Green Arrow does not have the feats to counter billy club ricochets nor pressure points.

Ball's on your side. I'm retiring now.

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#233 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Just curious, but what is so hyperbolic about Daredevil crossing 2 blocks with seconds, when it is clearly based on what was shown on panel, rather than mere stements?.

Peak humans do crazy stuff all the time in comics, so why should Daredevil be any different?

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#234 Posted by GIliad_ (6631 posts) - - Show Bio

I love and hate Ghostravage for all the right reasons

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#235 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@giliad_ said:

I love and hate Ghostravage for all the right reasons

Elaborate!

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#236 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Since you're retiring and there'd be no logic in replying to you, I have another proposition: let's take the idea that was offered to us back in page 3 or 4 and do a CaV. You're so sure that I'm being completely irrational so you'd have nothing to lose, just another easy win for your track record. Same characters, same setting and ruling as here. What say you?

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#237 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Just curious, but what is so hyperbolic about Daredevil crossing 2 blocks with seconds, when it is clearly based on what was shown on panel, rather than mere stements?.

Peak humans do crazy stuff all the time in comics, so why should Daredevil be any different?

Crossing 2 blocks in an unspecified amount of seconds is OK. But crossing 2 blocks without anyone noticing you in broad daylight, and climbing to the roof of a skyscraper, while changing your outfit completely in-between... that's fallacious for anyone short of speedsters.

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#238 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Since you're retiring and there'd be no logic in replying to you, I have another proposition: let's take the idea that was offered to us back in page 3 or 4 and do a CaV. You're so sure that I'm being completely irrational so you'd have nothing to lose, just another easy win for your track record. Same characters, same setting and ruling as here. What say you?

Well... The reason i'm dropping out is because i've already seen how this debate will keep going. A CaV will go exactly like this one and for the love of my life i can't keep repeating myself. I need to see some progression in points instead of "Your word vs mine" type of arguments. I would suggest you to read the post, write down your own reply and after that i might think about it. Right now, it is a no. Sorry.

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#239 Edited by cascadeking09 (6876 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd think it be a much better machup if this were their television version(that has also been done before). Id hate to repeat what's probably been said dozens of times already, but DD's radar sense gives him the edge even with the wide arsenal of trick arrows and GA's near superhuman accuracy. GA needs to keep it a long distance fight and somehow pin him where he can't dodge, will be very hard to do with his super senses and spacial awareness but its doable. I give it to Daredevil, though 8/10 too much?

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#240 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers said:

@the_red_viper: Just curious, but what is so hyperbolic about Daredevil crossing 2 blocks with seconds, when it is clearly based on what was shown on panel, rather than mere stements?.

Peak humans do crazy stuff all the time in comics, so why should Daredevil be any different?

Crossing 2 blocks in an unspecified amount of seconds is OK. But crossing 2 blocks without anyone noticing you in broad daylight, and climbing to the roof of a skyscraper, while changing your outfit completely in-between... that's fallacious for anyone short of speedsters.

Again why?. You don't have to be a speedster to achieve that kind of speed and comic book peak humans do crap like this all the time

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#241 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@ghostravage: Since you're retiring and there'd be no logic in replying to you, I have another proposition: let's take the idea that was offered to us back in page 3 or 4 and do a CaV. You're so sure that I'm being completely irrational so you'd have nothing to lose, just another easy win for your track record. Same characters, same setting and ruling as here. What say you?

Well... The reason i'm dropping out is because i've already seen how this debate will keep going. A CaV will go exactly like this one and for the love of my life i can't keep repeating myself. I need to see some progression in points instead of "Your word vs mine" type of arguments. I would suggest you to read the post, write down your own reply and after that i might think about it. Right now, it is a no. Sorry.

Wow, I have no problem with a little assertiveness and trash talk in a debate, but now you're being simply arrogant and outright disrespectful. No need for a CaV, and no need for an apology. Who the hell do you think you are?

@the_red_viper said:
@brucerogers said:

@the_red_viper: Just curious, but what is so hyperbolic about Daredevil crossing 2 blocks with seconds, when it is clearly based on what was shown on panel, rather than mere stements?.

Peak humans do crazy stuff all the time in comics, so why should Daredevil be any different?

Crossing 2 blocks in an unspecified amount of seconds is OK. But crossing 2 blocks without anyone noticing you in broad daylight, and climbing to the roof of a skyscraper, while changing your outfit completely in-between... that's fallacious for anyone short of speedsters.

Again why?. You don't have to be a speedster to achieve that kind of speed and comic book peak humans do crap like this all the time

Dude, be real, changing his clothes is by itself something that should take at least 30 seconds and that is REALLY stretching it.

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#242 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Wow, I have no problem with a little assertiveness and trash talk in a debate, but now you're being simply arrogant and outright disrespectful. No need for a CaV, and no need for an apology. Who the hell do you think you are?

Um... What? What's wrong with what i said? In the post i said several times i was simply consumed and tired of arguing the same points. I told you to write down your reply and i might think about it, if you don't want to write your reply sure, be my guest but i was far from being arrogant or disrespectful in that reply. The point of writing your reply is to see if the debate has an actual evolution or if we're going to keep arguing the same points. Simple. How is that arrogant or disrespectful? I would understand blunt and direct, but i sincerely see nothing wrong with what i'm stating.

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#243 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: More unrealistic than Batman punching through bazooka proof glass or Drakon catching all those arrows without getting tagged even once?

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#244 Edited by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Batman shouldn't be a measuring stick to bullcrap because we all know he's full of it.

Drakon on the other hand isn't too different from most bullet timing feats.

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#245 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Batman shouldn't be a measuring stick to bullcrap because we all know he's full of it.

Drakon on the other hand isn't too different than most bullet timing feats.

That's besides the point. What I am saying is that peak humans is just a definition that has lost any semblance of meaning a long time ago. I mean heck everyone from Rorschach to Captain America have been called that.

My point is Daredevil is clearly superhuman or nigh superhuman when it comes to speed.

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#246 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Unless he's a mutant, there's no more reason to believe that he can do that bullcrap than Green Arrow being able to fire hundreds of arrows per second.

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#247 Edited by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Even less believable than him reacting to bullets after they are fired or nerve striking class 60 characters?

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#248 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Yes, because inhuman martial skill and/or reflexes is one thing which is common in comics, but do you really believe a human who is not a speedster can preform a feat like this without it falling under the PIS caregory? I don't. Which is why I also don't take Oliver firing in those speeds as legit most of the time (he has far better rapid fire feats by the way).

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#249 Posted by BruceRogers (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Yes, because inhuman martial skill and/or reflexes is one thing which is common in comics, but do you really believe a human who is not a speedster can preform a feat like this without it falling under the PIS caregory? I don't. Which is why I also don't take Oliver firing in those speeds as legit most of the time (he has far better rapid fire feats by the way).

I think he can because he has shown consistent bullet reaction feats to say that he can run that fast if pressed. Again human in comics =/= human in real life.

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#250 Posted by the_red_viper (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Bullet timing is pretty much the bare minimum needed to have your name mentioned in a comic book. But this is something difderent entirely.

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