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Posted by jashro44 (52492 posts) 1 year, 11 months ago

Poll: Battle of the week: Green Arrow vs Daredevil (169 votes)

Green Arrow 31%
Daredevil 62%
Too Close To Call 7%
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For this weeks battle of the week we have the Emerald Archer Green Arrow versus The Man Without Fear Daredevil! Who will win? You decide!

Rules

  • Green arrow gets post crisis, rebirth/new 52 feats
  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

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#151 Edited by BullPR (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
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#152 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

Point taken on being able to smell Green Arrow's trick arrows from that distance.

Anyways, smell works both ways, he can smell the arrow while it is still in the quiver and preparing himself for the use of it, meaning that picking the arrow up, dragging the string back and shooting the arrows is more than enough time for Matt to know what type of arrow he's been shot with and moving accordingly. Matt doesn't need to outrace the explosion, he just needs to jump away when the arrow is traveling and considering the distance, there is hardly any absurdly over the top shot that can't be avoided, Matt has way too much space to jump around unharmed and unbothered. To address the electric arrows, he does smell electricity the same way he feels it and tastes it. The latter was proven back in Daredevil vol.1 #2 when he was tracking electro... He could easily feel the electrical vibrations several meters away from Electro.

I think you're overestimating Daredevil's speed. How can he outrace an 300 FPS arrow, that explodes on impact? Much less when Oliver can release a volley of several arrows simultaneously, to cover even a larger area of effect? Considering Ollie's rate of fire, I wouldn't put Matt's reaction speed above it. Seriously, Oliver's rate of fire is ridiculous and legit well into the superhuman range, I hate seeing it so criminally underestimated (not talking about you specifically). It's definitely a huge factor in this fight.

Regarding the electric arrows, well the thing is that the electric surge doesn't go off until the arrow hits its mark, which is too late for Matt to evade.

Cryogenic arrows can be easily avoided... Like, one of the easiest arrows to avoid in his arsenal, specially because they hardly work on agile people that can jump around, hide behind obstacles and climb buildings just as easy as Green Arrow, not to mention is one of those arrows that need to make contact to detonate, ergo, easily deflected or intercepted. As per sonic arrows, he can hear them, i thought that was obvious.

I don't see how they are easy to avoid. He shoots them at the floor, and they cover it in ice, freezing Matt in place. In the scan that I used, Oliver tells the people in the room to get on the desk before he fires the arrow, meaning that if they were to remain on the floor, they would have been affected by the arrow too. And as you can see in that scan too, the arrow takes effect nigh-instantaneously upon impact and covers the area of a large office room. So, I think that it will have a very good effect on Matt here. It's actually one of the hardest ones to avoid, not the easiest.

As for the sonics, well hearing them is pretty much the whole point, lol.

Alright, he can detonate gas arrows. How does he get past the fact Daredevil has filters? Needless to say, how does he counter the fact Daredevil MUST move away as fast as i he can to close the gap instead of amateurishly remain in the same spot as those soldiers were doing? After all, they had guns, Daredevil does not, meaning that giving him the time for something like that to happen isn't quite likely.

The filters were shown once, in an issue from 45 years ago. I don't think it can be counted as standard gear, unless Matt has been shown to use it again in later occurrences.

Either way, I think you and I both agree that Oliver is capable of sending the arrow close enough to Matt for it to have an effect. He can also, again, fire multiple of those at the same time to create a very large area of effect, like he did with the electric arrow, and here is another example with the tear gas arrow:

No Caption Provided

The first scan clearly shows the cryogenic arrow detonating on contact. Never said glue arrows needed to detonate on contact and the fact they didn't when they were used on Drakon was enough for me. Electric arrows also detonated on contact, clearly and explicitly showcased in the scan when they were shot at the floor.

Yes, it detonates on contact. What I meant was that it doesn't need to make contact with Matt himself. I already explained above why the cryonic arrow will be a very useful weapon here. Same goes for the electric arrows.

As for the glue, smelling it doesn't mean that he will know how its mechanism works. He can dodge it or try and deflect it, but it will still affect him, at least to some degree.

Actually, i think it is you who doesn't know anything about tear gas. It affects various parts of the body in different ways and it actually pin points those parts. This is from a simple google search in wikipedia:

"Tear gas works by irritating mucous membranes in the eyes, nose, mouth and lungs, and causes crying, sneezing, coughing, difficulty breathing, pain in the eyes, and temporary blindness. With CS gas, symptoms of irritation typically appear after 20–60 seconds of exposure[1] and commonly resolve within 30 minutes of leaving (or being removed from) the area."

So from this explanation we got tear gas mostly affects the eyes considering the crying, pain in the eyes and temporary blindness it causes. We also got that in order to create difficulty in breathing and coughing it must go down through the respiratory tract to the lungs and in order to do that it must also go inside the nose or mouth. So what Daredevil has to counter all of this:

  • Nostril Filters to filter the air that goes down to the lungs. ✔
  • Breathing through the nose to avoid being affected through the mouth. ✔
  • He's already blind and his eyes are in every essence of the word, useless. ✔
  • Daredevil actually has a synthetic suit that covers most of his body. ✔

I'm sorry, but tear gas had absolutely no means to make itself relevant in that particular instance, and it sure as hell won't have any relevance here. Easily avoidable, easily countered.

I actually do know a lot about tear gas, from my time in the army. We used it as an anti-riot weapon all the time. CS gas is actually the variant that is used for military purposes, and let me tell you, it's BAD. It suffocates you and creates a burning sensation (in addition to blinding and all that), and it works nigh-instantaneously, definitely not after 20-30 seconds (also Oliver's knockout gas was shown to work instantaneously). I can tell you some painful personal experiences if you don't take my word for it.

You're completely neglecting the fact Daredevil can move out of the way, hit the damn arrows down before they even get to him or simply cover himself with cars, dumpsters, other buildings, alleyways... After all, it is a city set up, like Manhattan nonetheless, more than enough cover and battleground paraphernalia for Matt to use.

And you're neglecting the fact that the arrows don't have to get to him. Ollie won't even be aiming them directly at him, but at his surroundings, and their area off effect is large enough to make sure Daredevil can't escape it in time. Add to that the fact that Oliver can fire volleys of 4 and even more arrows at the same time, as well as his legit superhuman rate of fire and of course his inhuman marksmanship (which goes without saying), and Daredevil is in big trouble. Especially since Green Arrow, like Matt himself, is also more than capable of using the surroundings to his advantage. He is very tactically capable, very versatile, and just like Daredevil the urban environment is his home turf.

Also, Oliver's arrows are capable of going through whatever cover Daredevil uses:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Left to right:

  1. Goes through and breaks a cinder block.
  2. Goes all the way through a newspaper stand - which can very likely be used as cover in a city setting.
  3. Goes through a wall - again very likely to be used as cover.

You haven't showcased anything remotely relevant to counter Daredevil's billy club ricochet and the fact he can ricochet his arrows with simple shots, nothing like Daredevil's, hardly proves he can dodge them, like, the justification doesn't even make sense. I mean, he overpowered an actual martial artist that had precognition on top of it and you've shown Green Arrow shooting his arrow and ricocheting 3 times... Give me a break now, unless you show me something as complex as what Daredevil has done and Green Arrow dodging it or reacting to it, i'm not buying this. Either way, Daredevil vol.1 #317.

'scuse me? Sure I have. Green Arrow regularly shoots arrows mid-flight:

No Caption Provided

And I wasn't suggesting that his trick shots are as good as Matt's, but they're enough to give him an idea when Matt goes for a trick shot so he knows that he should shoot an arrow at the billy club to intercept it.

Obstacles as everything, even getting inside buildings. After all, it is a Manhattan sized battleground that might actually be the city of Manhattan. Regardless, did you miss the part when Deadshot after being slightly bothered by the small explosion was completely capable of shoot him? What's stopping Daredevil from doing the same, even throwing the damn Billy Clubs from underneath the hypothetically used as cover car like he did against The Punisher, someone that by his own right has superb reflexes with guns, back in Daredevil vs Punisher #4?

As I said, Oliver has numerous methods to counter cover:

  1. His arrows can penetrate practically anything Daredevil can use for cover.
  2. His AOE trick arrows can counter cover as well.
  3. When Daredevil rushes for cover, Green Arrow can use the chance to create even more distance between them. He can rush backwards, as well as zipline himself on top of buildings.

As for Deadshot, he didn't really blow the car up, just set it on fire with an incendiary arrow. That's what it looks like when he blows up a car:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And yeah, he can totally throw the billy club under the car, it will just be shot down again.

It is way easier to block something like that, when you already have a gun pointing in that direction... The same can't be said about Green Arrow and his arrows. Obviously.

Not really:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Lubub55 already posted this one. Green Arrow has a sword a standard equipment by the way, but he can shoot the club down with an arrow just as well.

Parkour is an understatement. We're talking about a guy that in plain sight, in daylight, while completely visible and also trying to conceal his identity, can flat out disappear in-front of a sniper that is already aiming at him, dress up and climb a 6 story building 2 blocks away in seconds as showcased back in Daredevil vol.2 #28.

I don't think this sniper had the awareness feats that Oliver has, nor mapping arrows that can give him a full picture on all his surroundings.

To be honest, at this point i think you're completely tunnelvisioning the fight as if Ollie will be on a higher ground and Daredevil will just remain in plain sight. You do know the battle takes place in a completely interactive scenario resemblant to a city the size of Manhattan. You might as well think they won't even engage each other until they are closer, at least for Daredevil and it has been rather consistent for him to avoid being seen and simply close the gap whenever he can. I think i've been over-explaining myself on how most of those arrows won't work on Matt but i still feel you're purposely neglecting the counters. The area of effect of his explosive arrows is hardly relevant to be honest, he tried to detonate a car and simply exploded on the front part of it. The same goes for the other arrows which you and your crew are exaggerating like there's no tomorrow.

I'm not neglecting anything. You're the one who's neglecting, if anything. You neglect the fact that Green Arrow can fire arrows at blinding speeds, you neglect the fact that he can fire volleys of many arrows at once, and you're neglecting the fact that he won't try to aim the arrows directly at Matt, but at the floor and/or walls and/or anything else around him to create large areas of effect that even Matt can't escape.

As per the hand to hand combat, don't you think Matt knowing he's been shooting trick arrows all this time will first try to disable his ranged weapons like he did against Hawkeye and deal with his trick arrows before actually engaging completely in hand 2 hand combat? Hell, if he closes the gap i fail to see why something like this, while dodging at an alarming rate, wouldn't happen... Deadpool vol.3 #11.

How do you suppose he will disarm the trick arrows? How did he do it against Hawkeye? Do you have the scans?

And against Deadpool, well Deadpool didn't have AOE weaponry. I never suggested that Matt isn't a bullet timer, but that's something else completely.

Yeah, i'm just not seeing Green Arrow casually reacting to the billy club ricochet, much less hitting them away with his arrows like you're implying. People have shown absolutely nothing besides his trick arrows and how they work instead of supporting the arguments with an actual instance explaining what he could do.

Green Arrow is an arrow-timer and also has bullet-timing feats:

No Caption Provided

As you can see, the attackers fired at him in the 2nd panel when he was standing up and firing his arrows, and after they shot the bullets he dived sideways to avoid them, arching his body and moving his limbs so that they're all perfectly out of the bullets' path.

Green Arrow can shoot down arrows mid-flight, as well as react to an arrow fired from behind him, and when it's inches away from him, he spins and slices it in half with his sword, and then you have the above feat which is legit bullet-timing. Add to that the fact that he is an expert in trick shots himself so he would know when his opponents ties to use one, and he can safely and easily shoot the club down mid-flight.

Simply asserting and making logical conjectures about his arrows, area of effect and how Daredevil apparently is going to be stupid enough to fail to recognize key factors about him, like go inside buildings to avoid being shot so many times, opt for a more stealthy approach and take advantage of his rather unpractical piece of equipment, because lets be honest, bow and arrows were a thing of the past, that's why he was guns nowadays, they are simply better.

Nobody's saying Daredevil is stupid. He's just outclassed in long range, against an enemy who is probably the most versatile street-level fighter in mainstream comics and is a master tactician, whose entire fighting style is built around utilizing sophisticated trick-arrows along with his inhuman skill and rate of fire. Oliver's first volley of arrows will hit home before Matt can make a move to get inside a building or anything, and is very likely to be enough to incapacitate him or knock him out. If not, it will at the very least slow him down a bit and in the blink of an eye Oliver will have a second and third volleys of trick arrows aimed directly where he wants.

In conclusion:

Daredevil doesn't really have any solid counter to any AOE trick arrow, let alone a volley of those, let alone volleys that come in blinding and criminally underrated speeds. Any form of cover he might try can be countered.

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#153 Posted by BruceRogers (17320 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Lol, I already responded to you. I was talking about the others

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#154 Posted by Amendment50 (15429 posts) - - Show Bio

Sonic arrows would majorly screw Matt over, but given that it is a random encounter I don't see it really coming up. All in all Matt is more skilled where it counts and agile enough to close the gap. I side with Daredevil.

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#155 Edited by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Anything you should be concerned about Matt?
Anything you should be concerned about Matt?

Point taken on being able to smell Green Arrow's trick arrows from that distance.

Alright.

I think you're overestimating Daredevil's speed. How can he outrace an 300 FPS arrow, that explodes on impact? Much less when Oliver can release a volley of several arrows simultaneously, to cover even a larger area of effect? Considering Ollie's rate of fire, I wouldn't put Matt's reaction speed above it. Seriously, Oliver's rate of fire is ridiculous and legit well into the superhuman range, I hate seeing it so criminally underestimated (not talking about you specifically). It's definitely a huge factor in this fight.

Overestimating Daredevil's speed? A guy that literally hit bullets out of the air when he's shot from literally a meter away from him? Do you think someone who can literally and in every essence of the word perform an arm motion between them time it takes a bullet to leave the barrel and get him when he's literally standing right in front of you as he did back in Daredevil: Reborn #4 when he was shot 3 times, 2 bullets right next to the other, effortlessly?

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What is a freaking arrow going to do against someone with this kind of reflexes? Can't you see arrows and their travel speed is absolutely no challenge for him? Look, i need you to get something through your skull... Daredevil's perceptive and reactionary speed is by all means, superhuman. The fact his senses are so heightened to the point he can even notice a nanosecond pause in a continuous frequency as showcased back in Daredevil vol.2 #4 is enough to claim he will see Green Arrow's attacks coming while he's still taking the arrow from his quiver, let alone dragging the bow back and shooting it.

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C'mon now, you're absolutely mutilating the facts to fit a notion that hardly has a base to sustain itself while completely neglecting Daredevil absurdly consistent reactionary speed. He can outrace arrows the same way he outraces bullets, it's the same principle, just that bullets are dramatically faster than arrows. What is indeed being criminally overrated here is this "area of effect" you keep talking about... Like, hell, it is so freaking small.

Go ahead, i want you to show me this insanely wide volley of explosive arrows being shot simultaneously. I'm positive you won't find a single instance depicting Green Arrow as you're implying here whereas everything stated on Daredevil's side has been confirmed through characterization in different instances, like, his arrows are counted to begin with and even if he doesn't run out of arrows because reasons, it is pretty damn clear he shoots his arrows thinking of not running out of arrows, not mindlessly using every single arrow in his disposal while ignoring the possibility of running out of ammo. What i'm trying to say is, he's not going to recreate the 300 movie scene while darkening the sky with explosive arrows on a character he doesn't know anything about. Daredevil on the other side MUST shorten the distance between them, hence why taking cover, hiding, running into buildings, etc, is reasonably expected to happen as a first counter-measure.

His freaking fight with Deadshot proves as much, how he opts to be tactical instead of shooting 400 trick arrows at 300fps simultaneously to beat a single character... When on Earth has that ever happened? It's just ridiculous. Either way, i understand he shoots fast, but Daredevil also reacts insanely fast, there's cover and he certainly does not use his arrows mindlessly nor shoots a volley of explosive or trick arrows like you're implying.

Regarding the electric arrows, well the thing is that the electric surge doesn't go off until the arrow hits its mark, which is too late for Matt to evade.

He can grab them... His gloves are insulated and i posted as much in my first comment. Or you know, he could just jump away from the very small and partially insignificant area it covers when they are activated.

I don't see how they are easy to avoid. He shoots them at the floor, and they cover it in ice, freezing Matt in place. In the scan that I used, Oliver tells the people in the room to get on the desk before he fires the arrow, meaning that if they were to remain on the floor, they would have been affected by the arrow too. And as you can see in that scan too, the arrow takes effect nigh-instantaneously upon impact and covers the area of a large office room. So, I think that it will have a very good effect on Matt here. It's actually one of the hardest ones to avoid, not the easiest.

Yes, we already know that, the problem lies on the fact the area of effect is extremely reduced as opposed to your assumed effect. It's literally less than 5 meters at most, someone like Matt would dodge that effortlessly, even normal human would dodge it considering he can cover that much of a distance in less than a second. Average olympic athletes can react to a gun shot and sprint in between 0.12 and 0.20 seconds, which means the arrow at best will travel just 60 feet after being shot before an average olympic athlete successfully react, now take that picture and elevate it exponentially, that's how fast Matt will react. You're acting as if Matt will do absolutely nothing as soon as the match starts and that Oliver will instantaneously predict what Daredevil is going to do, without even needing to aim at him and shoot the arrow perfectly on spot to freeze him... Can't you see just how far fetched that is when you're referring to someone that reacts after bullets have been shot, actually moving between the time the bullet travels from the barrel to him? Regardless, the arrow didn't cover an office room, it looked much more like a concierge central desk.

The arrow isn't even touching him. I'm sorry, but you're putting way too much on something that can even be avoided by an average olympic athlete, let alone Daredevil.

As for the sonics, well hearing them is pretty much the whole point, lol.

Hearing them before they are even near him is actually the point.

The filters were shown once, in an issue from 45 years ago. I don't think it can be counted as standard gear, unless Matt has been shown to use it again in later occurrences.

Yes and Daredevil has been able to avoid being neutralized by gases consistently precisely because of this, hence why people started using gas that is absorbed through the skin instead of your normal lung filling gases. Regardless, the burden of proof is on you and i hope you make enough research to come up with an incriminating instance to debunk this. As far as his comics goes, this is as canon and applicable as a feat can get.

Either way, I think you and I both agree that Oliver is capable of sending the arrow close enough to Matt for it to have an effect. He can also, again, fire multiple of those at the same time to create a very large area of effect, like he did with the electric arrow, and here is another example with the tear gas arrow:

No... That's one of the main points i'm arguing. The arrows won't have any effect on Matt if they are not sonic arrows. He can shoot them close but Matt will avoid them rather effortlessly, the caliber of his reactions is well beyond arrows, sorry. You keep pushing this big area of effect while completely ignoring it isn't even 5 meters wide, hell, his explosive arrows has even a lesser area of effect than his cryogenic arrow. Your last example does have a decent area of effect, precisely because it is gas, easily propagated, however, it might as well not work on Matt for reason already stated.

Yes, it detonates on contact. What I meant was that it doesn't need to make contact with Matt himself. I already explained above why the cryonic arrow will be a very useful weapon here. Same goes for the electric arrows.

It doesn't need to make contact with Matt, but Matt should be completely capable of actually looking forward to make contact with the arrow and simply slap it away, nullifying in its entirety its effectiveness. Cryogenic, Explosive and Electric arrows can bit hit away or grabbed, Glue arrows can be easily avoided, tear gas arrows shouldn't work and sonic arrows are the only ones that might pose a real problem for Daredevil but then again, hardly a game changer.

As for the glue, smelling it doesn't mean that he will know how its mechanism works. He can dodge it or try and deflect it, but it will still affect him, at least to some degree.

Why? He's not new to trick arrows, if he smells glue in it he could simply opt to dodge it. Why would it affect Matt? I still don't understand how something that will be effectively dodged will affect him. What's your thought process behind this? Area of effect once again? You mean the rather sad area it covered in both scenarios? I mean...

I actually do know a lot about tear gas, from my time in the army. We used it as an anti-riot weapon all the time. CS gas is actually the variant that is used for military purposes, and let me tell you, it's BAD. It suffocates you and creates a burning sensation (in addition to blinding and all that), and it works nigh-instantaneously, definitely not after 20-30 seconds (also Oliver's knockout gas was shown to work instantaneously). I can tell you some painful personal experiences if you don't take my word for it.

You know how it feels but it seems you don't know how exactly does the gas performs all of that in your body. The wikipedia information explains how the gas works as in how everything starts to take place. What's the counter behind what Daredevil did in the instance. Didn't breath through his mouth, affecting his eyes is useless, nostril filters and a suit that protects most of his skin. The 20-30 second span was referring to skin irritation and i can bet all my money skin does not get irritated nigh-instantaneously.

I believe you, you probably know how it feels like. Still, nothing wrong with the explanation on Wikipedia.

And you're neglecting the fact that the arrows don't have to get to him. Ollie won't even be aiming them directly at him, but at his surroundings, and their area off effect is large enough to make sure Daredevil can't escape it in time. Add to that the fact that Oliver can fire volleys of 4 and even more arrows at the same time, as well as his legit superhuman rate of fire and of course his inhuman marksmanship (which goes without saying), and Daredevil is in big trouble. Especially since Green Arrow, like Matt himself, is also more than capable of using the surroundings to his advantage. He is very tactically capable, very versatile, and just like Daredevil the urban environment is his home turf.

I'm not neglecting it, i'm saying arrows that need impact before activating are freaking useless against someone who can slap them away. Area of effect arrows are also useless if the target in question is much faster as far as reactions goes than the shooter to begin with, specially when the area of effect is significantly smaller than you're making it out to be. Yeah, i want to see those multi-trick arrows volleys, sound irresistibly legit. Inhuman marksmanship... Did you forget Daredevil's most iconic villain is also a ridiculous marksman? Bullseye? Routinely missing against Daredevil?

Also, Oliver's arrows are capable of going through whatever cover Daredevil uses:

Oliver's non-trick arrows can go through metal and concrete. That's fine and i assumed as much when i made my first post. You on the other hand can't seem to understand he can't hit what he can't see, as it is blatantly showcased in the same fight with Deadshot when he shoots the arrows and fails miserably to hit him. Needless to say, i love his face when he couldn't do shit about a bullet cutting the string of his bow... Graciously done and perfectly presented as evidence.

'scuse me? Sure I have. Green Arrow regularly shoots arrows mid-flight:

Awesome! Where's the evidence i asked for again? Here, let me ask you again. Unless you show me something as complex as what Daredevil has done and Green Arrow dodging it or reacting to it, i'm not buying this. Either way, i think i need to make emphasis on this because i just love it when the proof i need somehow is given to me by my opponent. I knew this was taken into account in comics, Green Arrow comics nonetheless.

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Running out of arrows. Now, i can't wait for that massive trick arrow volley you have so much time talking about, seems like something Green Arrow would obviously do, with such a tactical and calculating mind of his.

And I wasn't suggesting that his trick shots are as good as Matt's, but they're enough to give him an idea when Matt goes for a trick shot so he knows that he should shoot an arrow at the billy club to intercept it.

Not at all, you at the very least need to showcase Green Arrow successfully reacting to ricochet tactics on Daredevil's level of complexity... What you showed me just now is him shooting arrows traveling in straight line, which i guess is a good feat, but not enough to counter what i'm claiming. This is a completely reasonable request considering there are people, who also posses a rather superhuman level of ricocheting ability with objects, that have been successfully able to react to Daredevil's tactics, like Bullseye... Then again, trick shots are his specialty, not so much Green Arrow's.

By the same token, the fact Daredevil managed to literally shorten the distance between him and Bullseye back in Daredevil vol.5 #16, who was confirmed was holding a sniper 500 yards away from Daredevil in the span of a rather short moment while using his billy club throw as his first movement, means he should be completely capable of doing the same for someone standing simply 100 feet away.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Again, is Daredevil too slow for Green Arrows massively hypersonic arrows or does he have the movement speed to confirm and prove to you he's completely capable of dodging his arrows? Likewise, it worths to note that in the same instance Daredevil managed to block the sniper bullet by moving his arm at the same time Bullseye was moving his finger to shoot with a weapon that can cover 2000 feet per second just 500 yards away, so the bullet arrives in less than a second, 0.75 seconds to be precise, if that's not reactionary enough for you, i have absolutely no idea what's the point of keep arguing, unless of course, you have another reason to discard this as well.

As I said, Oliver has numerous methods to counter cover:

  1. His arrows can penetrate practically anything Daredevil can use for cover.
  2. His AOE trick arrows can counter cover as well.
  3. When Daredevil rushes for cover, Green Arrow can use the chance to create even more distance between them. He can rush backwards, as well as zipline himself on top of buildings.

As for Deadshot, he didn't really blow the car up, just set it on fire with an incendiary arrow. That's what it looks like when he blows up a car:

And yeah, he can totally throw the billy club under the car, it will just be shot down again.

Right. Let's see.

  1. Daredevil can see the arrow behind his cover, you know, Radar Sense and all that. Meaning he can successfully position himself where the arrow does not even touch him while covering, not that he's going to last that much time behind the cover, as most of the time will be spent in shortening the distance instead of camping behind this "hypothetical car".
  2. How exactly? By freezing everything in-front the cover, ergo, not touching Daredevil at all? By popping his gas arrows that have been extensively debunked already? By using explosive arrows whose area of impact is nothing but unimpressive? C'mon man, you haven't even addressed the fact Daredevil might go inside a building where his arrows will have little to no practical effect whatsoever.
  3. Yes, the same way Daredevil can simply opt to go inside a building and take this fight to the roofs, hide himself successfully. Again, it is a city landscape, the battleground is rather gigantic with an absurd amount of utility laying around.

Oh sure, yeah. So i guess Green Arrow shooting at what it seems to monsters, some of them barely bothered by the explosion, translates into Green Arrow blowing the hell out of everything Daredevil takes cover with. I don't know, i think you're actually stretching his character, even your own proof goes against you. Like using incendiary arrows against a covered target instead of using another type of arrow.

As per the Billy Club, i hope you're aware your feat involves Green Arrow literally looking at another archer shoot his arrows whereas the Billy Club will be thrown from a completely non-visible position and noticed from an unexpected position. I don't know, it just seems rather ridiculous to think he will simply shot it away, when most likely he'll prefer to dodge it considering the situation.

Not really:

Even though i have absolutely no idea what's the counter behind this particular part addressing what i posted, let's play devil's advocate (ironically applicable given the characters involved) here. Instead of assuming he reacted to a projectile he wasn't aware of, why not assume he was actually looking at the arrow by looking at the reflection on his binocular lenses?

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It is a very good feat, don't get me wrong, but hardly one that revolves around an unexpected projectile coming from him. As i see it, given the position of his binoculars and how conveniently located it is in this particular panel, i fall behind the notion he was aware of it and reacted accordingly. Either way, highly subjective point to say the least and neither of us can provide the tie-breaker here.

Lubub55 already posted this one. Green Arrow has a sword a standard equipment by the way, but he can shoot the club down with an arrow just as well.

I can at the very least be reasonable about the use of the sword, even though i do not agree he will be able to do it, but shooting it down with an arrow when you've showcased nothing but Green Arrow, totally seeing the arrows being shoot at him with linear movement, which is the same as say, dodging a bullet from a shooter standing in front of you.

I don't think this sniper had the awareness feats that Oliver has, nor mapping arrows that can give him a full picture on all his surroundings.

The awareness is irrelevant, what matters about the feat is Daredevil disappeared in plain sight and shortened a distance of a couple of city blocks under seconds, you know, after he also suited up in between that span of time.

I'm not neglecting anything. You're the one who's neglecting, if anything. You neglect the fact that Green Arrow can fire arrows at blinding speeds, you neglect the fact that he can fire volleys of many arrows at once, and you're neglecting the fact that he won't try to aim the arrows directly at Matt, but at the floor and/or walls and/or anything else around him to create large areas of effect that even Matt can't escape.

I'm not, all i'm doing is presenting counters with tangible proof about what's going to happen, all you're doing is repeating yourself over and over while stretching the effectiveness of whatever Green Arrow is going to do. Unreasonably overrating the area of effect of his arrows, taking his approach completely out of character and indirectly underrating Daredevil's speed and wits. Hardly an objective stance to say the least.

How do you suppose he will disarm the trick arrows? How did he do it against Hawkeye? Do you have the scans?

Close combat, disarmament, breaking the arrows, throwing the quiver aside.

And against Deadpool, well Deadpool didn't have AOE weaponry. I never suggested that Matt isn't a bullet timer, but that's something else completely.

Again, you're missing the point. This feat was mentioned to show you how Matt can cover rather large areas of a city street effortlessly while maintaining pressure in close combat, ultimately being capable of disabling someone with incapacitation tactics. Green Arrow having a much slower rate of fire than Deadpool, with also a slower weapon is going to prove detrimental for him when this particular moment comes. It's undeniable.

Green Arrow is an arrow-timer and also has bullet-timing feats:

That's cute. Daredevil dances around people that does this routinely. I fail to see the point of presenting this considering it is against fodder and because everyone here already assumed from the beginning Green Arrow had bullet timing feats, like most street levelers with a name.

As you can see, the attackers fired at him in the 2nd panel when he was standing up and firing his arrows, and after they shot the bullets he dived sideways to avoid them, arching his body and moving his limbs so that they're all perfectly out of the bullets' path.

I have another interpretation. Fodder was missing, the same way he missed some arrows, then he positioned himself by noticing how they were aiming and made them miss even more. Basically it's the same as saying one of those thugs was shooting and dodging his arrows as well, considering that's what's shown in the scan as well. Got my drift?

Green Arrow can shoot down arrows mid-flight, as well as react to an arrow fired from behind him, and when it's inches away from him, he spins and slices it in half with his sword, and then you have the above feat which is legit bullet-timing. Add to that the fact that he is an expert in trick shots himself so he would know when his opponents ties to use one, and he can safely and easily shoot the club down mid-flight.

Yes he can shoot arrows mid-flight. Yes he can react to an arrow shot from behind and cut it in half inches away from him. Yes he has a bullet timing feat. He knows trick shots... Everything else, you lost me. You know, you keep doing this false equivalence argument that because he knows some trick shots he will be able to react to Daredevil's trickshots... Doesn't that cause static in your head? Like, something particularly important is missing? This is what you got so far:

  • Green Arrow can shoot arrows mid-flight. ✔
  • Green Arrow can react to projectiles inches away from him shot from behind. ✔
  • Green Arrow knows trick shots. ✔

Now, this is what you're completely overlooking about everything you just stated.

  • Green Arrow was looking at the archer shooting the arrows, meaning he had the predict where the arrows where going to be considering they were normal arrows and were shot in straight line. ✘
  • Green Arrow might have been looking at the projectile with his binocular lenses as a reflection and actually took him all that time to react to the projectile at hand. A good feat, or maybe a bad one. Regardless, completely reasonable argument there. ✘
  • Someone knowing how to use a gun does not make him able to react to a bullet. Hopefully you understand the analogy. In simple words... You're missing the key factor of showing Arrow reacting to something remotely similar to Daredevil's billy clubs while ricocheting. This evidence is vital for you to claim he can react to them, even more so when people that have the same feats as Green Arrow, can't seem to react as easily as you're claiming, like Bullseye, Iron Fist and even Spider-Man. ✘

Nobody's saying Daredevil is stupid. He's just outclassed in long range, against an enemy who is probably the most versatile street-level fighter in mainstream comics and is a master tactician, whose entire fighting style is built around utilizing sophisticated trick-arrows along with his inhuman skill and rate of fire. Oliver's first volley of arrows will hit home before Matt can make a move to get inside a building or anything, and is very likely to be enough to incapacitate him or knock him out. If not, it will at the very least slow him down a bit and in the blink of an eye Oliver will have a second and third volleys of trick arrows aimed directly where he wants.

You're not claiming it but judging by how far fetched and drastically unlikely your approach is, both on Green Arrow and Daredevil's end, you're indirectly assuming he's a simple guy that will be taken out of the equation easily with an absurd amount of things that i'm pretty sure won't be happening any time soon. Of course he's outclassed in long range, he doesn't have anything remotely close to a ranged weapon to fight in ranged combat, hence why he's closing the gap. Green Arrow is far from being the most versatile street-leveler, he would still need to surpass Batman, Taskmaster and Hawkeye himself, let alone independent characters i don't feel like mentioning.

The underlined part is the key point about all of this... That's all he's got and that's all you've arguing for here. You don't actually have a counter for someone who is fast enough to dodge and avoid being affected by his arrows, so you simply choose to repeat yourself while seemingly ignoring what is showcased to you. Daredevil is fast enough to overcome the distance gap and in close quarter combat, Daredevil is just in his own league, not fast enough to fight Spider-Man nowadays, but faster than someone like Wolverine or Captain America.

You keep mentioning this volley and you haven't showcased anything to support this. May i PLEASE have some sort of evidence Green Arrow will actually go for a volley full of explosive, glue, cryogenic, sonic and gas arrows? It just seems ridiculously unlikely at this point. He's a tactician with a limited amount of arrows, specially non-common ones... Why would someone so smart opt to blindly go for a volley against a character he knows nothing about... What about thinking he might need those after figuring out things that tell him more about who is he fighting in this match? I can't be the sole person in this thread taking this into account and in the comics itself, Merlyn made it abundantly clear these type of things are taken into account. Your whole strategy is rubbish and pardon my french. Don't take this personally, i'm just a bold person, specially while debating.

Daredevil doesn't really have any solid counter to any AOE trick arrow, let alone a volley of those, let alone volleys that come in blinding and criminally underrated speeds. Any form of cover he might try can be countered.

He does... He's fast enough to not get caught in any area of effect phenomena and smart enough to get proper cover, as in, go inside buildings to minimize the chances of being spotted, ergo, also reducing the chances of being shot with something while effectively concealing himself like the absurdly proficient ninja he is. Trick Arrow Volleys are a tactic completely made up and taken entirely out of characterization. Not all covers can't be countered and you've failed to provide the proper evidence to showcase this as well.

Summary

  • Daredevil is still fast enough to simply dodge, deflect and avoid being hit by Ollie's arrows.
  • Area of Effect attacks are being massively overestimated and flat out blown out of proportion.
  • Daredevil has more than enough in the scenario to find proper cover, including going inside buildings to gain the leverage.
  • Daredevil is still leaps and bounds superior to Green Arrow as far as close combat goes and sadly, the match will indeed be determined by such a fight.
  • Green Arrow lacks reaction speed and perceptivity to react successfully to Daredevil's ricocheting billy clubs.
  • Daredevil wins.

And as a token of my appreciation for your time and dedication, some words from Matt Murdock, the Man Without Fear.

No Caption Provided

Ball's on your side mate.

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#156 Edited by TheStarWarsGuy (285 posts) - - Show Bio

matt files a law suit.......

AND WINS!!!

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#157 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#158 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Lol, I already responded to you. I was talking about the others

Oh. Well in that case I'll respond to what you said soon.

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#159 Posted by BruceRogers (17320 posts) - - Show Bio
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#160 Edited by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Drakon's feat being impressive than reacting to bullets, after they are fired is debatable. Especially when the person you are comparing to is Daredevil. Still, you are also ignoring the fact that Drakon does not have the agility feats at par with Matt

The manner in which he Drakon arrow times is definitely above the kind of bullet timing Daredevil does. Catching dozens fired in volleys at once from multiple shooters, all by the tips, without exerting himself and catching four arrows fired by the same bow with one hand is ridiculous. Far more so than the kind of bullet timing Daredevil does. Drakon may not be able to match every one of Daredevil's agility feats due to his limited appearances, but he's been able to do things such as leaping across entire rooms, so he clearly isn't a slouch in that area.

Connor speculating him reacting to bullets is just that.

Connor's thoughts wouldn't be included if they weren't relevant. It's supposed to show the reader what he can do, without actually having him do it. If he couldn't, they wouldn't have put it in the comic without contradicting it later on.

You still haven't addressed as to how he is going to get all those arrows into every possible hiding place there is, in a random encounter, while mid battle.

Matt's radar works nigh instantaneously and he needs little to no concentration to get a complete map of the whole area. As my previous scan from post number 15 showed, he can pinpoint the location of a sniper from two blocks away, that's how far his radar can stretch.

It says in the scan that one arrow will map out the entire area, and feed the information back to his goggles. And obviously Oliver won't use them mid-battle, only if Daredevil disappears from his sight and tries stealth, which won't work anyway.

I don't want to repeat myself, but did you catch my scan on post 15 where he crosses 2 blocks and climbs up a building in what amounts to a few seconds to a minute tops? That is enough to say he is faster at climbing than Ollie. Plus, he can leap much higher and thus climb faster.

I agree that Daredevil is generally a better climber than Green Arrow, but he sure as hell isn't climbing a building in less time than it takes a grappling arrow to get to the top with Oliver holding on.

Regardless, the isn't going to just stand there with an awe expression as Ollie is climbing. He is more likely to throw something at him to get him down, like I also mentioned.

Which is going to be hard with the distance, and Ollie is durable enough to not let go of an arrow that automatically carries him to the top with no effort on his part.

Zero advantages is really an over estimation, if I have ever seen it. He is better at scaling buildings, better agility, an in built mapping sense and you still think he has no advantage at all?

Everything you mentioned is countered with trick arrows I've previously mentioned.

Okay then, let's say Ollie figures out that Daredevil was unfazed by the flash bang arrow. Then what?. What is to stop him from assuming that his mask just has some kind of gear that protects him from stuff like this?. That is a far more logical conclusion than assuming blindness since blind people do not move around like that. Or better yet, he would just write it off as him being that good at hiding his pain.

The Hawkeye scan literally states that not faking it would give away his blindness.

If anything, it's Ollie who will be at a disadvantage if he does that since he is bound to let his guard down by expecting Matt to flinch. He will be in for a rude surprise when he finds out otherwise and realises that he has just given away an opening.

He's not an idiot, and if Matt does that then Ollie isn't going to take risks like that again. He'll go for his most powerful arrows afterwards.

Firstly, when I never said Matt will just deflect arrows. I said Matt will do that plus dodge and take cover.

Oliver has AOE arrows which can't be dodged, and I've shown quite a few ways he can negate cover entirely, or even turn it to his advantage.

I don't think he can one shot Ollie unless he uses a nerve strike but he will beat him for a majority. A big one.

Agreed. A melee fight isn't something Green Arrow can win.

Flechettes are going to be nothing but a momentary distraction, if that. You are really overplaying his ability to make distance.

A momentary distraction is all they're supposed to be. A moment is all that's needed for Ollie to pull something off with the second it buys him. Trick arrows or a retreat. I'm really not seeing how Matt can close the distance when his opponent has things like explosive and electrical arrows anyway.

And you think Matt hasn't dodged bullets and deflected projectiles from people like Bullseye, Punisher or Deadpool who have similar to more impressive accuracy feats?.

Punisher and Deadpool aren't really relevant here because of the projectiles they use and because of their obvious disadvantages in accuracy when compared to Green Arrow, (And he's only ever aim dodged them,) but Bullseye hasn't matched the fire rate Ollie showed in the scans I provided. He's similar in accuracy, but accuracy isn't the point I was making. It was rate of fire.

It's not a problem and you can check out post 131 where I have shown how Matt can fight through loud noises, explosions and electric attacks.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying Matt immediately gets one-shot by anything in Ollie's arsenal, because that won't happen. Regardless if Daredevil got back up or not, he was downed and that's going to play a major role here. Ollie isn't just going to lay off and give Matt a chance to get up after he gets put to the floor, he's going to press his advantage. Green Arrow's sonic arrows are so distracting that Hal Jordan can't focus to use his ring, Green Arrow's explosive arrows are powerful enough to blow motorcycles apart and Green Arrow's electrical arrows are powerful enough to immediately incapacitate four thugs when shot at the non-conductive ground near them. They won't be shrugged off.

For a guy who can escape a locked jail cell with no effort, how much trouble do you think a net arrow is going to cause him?

Lots. I'm not claiming that as soon as Matt is wrapped in a net arrow, that's it, the fight is over because he can't ever escape. It will make Matt vulnerable to a damaging arrow or will just allow Oliver to get to a rooftop, and once he's up there he's guaranteed to win the fight.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

That's not the only arrow type he has to bind Matt, anyway.

As for the glue bombs, Matt just needs to dodge or jump over them. Problem solved.

As I've previously said, jumping over an arrow after it's fired isn't easy, and Ollie regularly exploits that as a tactic against people who would usually be too fast for his arrows. Or he could just shoot at the body for Matt to deflect them, in which case they would open up like that.

And if you think Ollie is consistently that durable, I will be happy to show scans which can prove that Matt can take his head off his shoulders in one hit. You see the flaw in that?

Okay maybe it was, apologies. But still, you don't see the flaw in thinking Ollie can take hits from a bloodlusted Slade with no signs of apparent injury?

See here is the problem. I mean you do know that Ollie has been injured by far less right?. So judging his durability by those high end feats is just that.

At the risk of sounding like broken record, Daredevil has dropped Tombstone in one hit (laughs of hits from Spider-man) and has injured Bruiser with a kick. The same Bruiser who caused Kaine to injure his leg kicking him the same way. So what do you think would happen to Ollie if I try and argue that Matt can consistently hit that hard?

He is consistently this durable. That doesn't mean he'll be able to just stand there and laugh as Daredevil tries in vain to injure him with his hardest punches, because that would be ridiculous. It doesn't mean that he isn't consistently this durable, though. As far as I can remember, from 2001 onwards Oliver has never been knocked out through pure blunt force. The only time he's been significantly injured by it was against Constantine Drakon, (Who didn't manage to keep him down,) and that happened in the same issue that Oliver was tanking hits and grapples from superhuman monsters whilst smiling, showing that it's because Drakon is just that good. If you want a solid durability feat that still had Ollie being injured though, he was only bleeding after a prolonged fight with Roy Harper, when in that same arc Roy was breaking pillars with his kicks and hitting punching bags off the chain. Daredevil can hurt Green Arrow, but it won't be easy is all I'm saying.

I know. That was kind of my point.

How is Deathstroke being a better fighter than Green Arrow relevant at all? He's much better than Daredevil too. It's no failing of durability, only skill. Matt would get beaten down just as badly in that situation, and Oliver wasn't even in his prime then.

I have already covered the AOE arrows.

You have?

And has he fought people who consistently use nerve strikes like Matt and most importantly, avoided such an attack?.

He has fought people like Batman, and spars with people like Connor Hawke and Black Canary. Deathstroke is very good with pressure points, and Slade's teacher taught him all he could in fighting skill. He should at the very least be able to identify them and find a workaround. They are Matt's best shot at winning this though, but it won't happen for a majority. Ollie has insane knowledge on human anatomy anyway, and has commented in the past on the best place to target people for different effects.

Be realistic here. How often do you think he is going to chase Matt to a location, shoot a mapping arrow. Rinse and repeat until he covers every possible stealth space?. I am guessing not a lot

Green Arrow won't be on the offensive here. He's going to setup a perimeter to guard, and will know if Daredevil comes within that. He will find high ground and defend himself there. Plus, he has thermal goggles.

That still does not make him immune to getting tagged by one in the middle of a melee battle.

Yes, he can get tagged. Just like Daredevil can get tagged by things like flechettes and conventional arrows. The thing is though, none are very likely to happen.

Superior when compared to aim dodgers than sure. But compared to people with legit bullet reaction speed (after it has left the gun)?. Hell no. Simply due to the fact that if a person is fast enough to perceive bullets and react accordingly, an arrow is going to be much slower.

I fail to see how this is even a debate tbh.

We have to look at more than just the speed of the projectiles, at the manner in which feats are performed.

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Daredevil #159

Here is one of Daredevil's genuine bullet timing feats, where he reacts to a bullet fired from what looks to be a 1911, which has a muzzle velocity of 830 ft/s, and he reacted from about ten foot away with warning from his Radar Sense. Most modern compound bows fire arrows at 300 ft/s, and Oliver reacted when the arrow was behind him about eight inches away, when he had no warning. Even if we were to assume that the League of Assassins member and master archer Merlyn uses a bow that fires only at the average, Oliver is still clearly reacting better. Let's compare distance:

  1. Green Arrow - 8 inches
  2. Daredevil - 120 inches

Daredevil had fifteen times the amount of distance to react in, compared to Green Arrow. Now speed:

  1. Green Arrow - 300 ft/s
  2. Daredevil 830 ft/s

Daredevil had a 2.76666666667 times faster projectile to react to.

Just compare the above stats and see how massively superior Green Arrow's feat is when we look at only this. Then look at how Matt was aware the bullet was going to be fired and was already facing the shooter, and how Ollie had no warning and had to spin around completely before cutting the arrow in half. There really is no comparison.

Um, how and why exactly?. We have already established that he is fast enough to see arrows in slow motion, so you think he cannot just jump over them?. Put two and two together mate.

If he hasn't proven that he can, then he can't. It's as simple as that.

Like I already said above, to a guy who can practically see arrows come at him with a much slower pace than they are actually moving, simply jumping as high as he can is not going to be hard. In fact, it is going to be effortless for him.

The point of the scan was to show how fast he can jump and flip. I wasn't using it as a reaction feat.

I'm not doubting he can jump over the height an arrow would be fired at. He can. What he can't do though, going by feats, is jump over one after it's already been fired. Saying that he can would just be a baseless assumption.

if I am not mistaken, he tagged him by tricking him not by being fast enough to tag him per say.

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Punisher and Captain America. The latter could not even get a leg up on him in spite of ambushing him with chaff that messed up his radar sense to the point of uselessness. The former has been unable to get the best of Matt in spite of being one of the finest combat tacticians, without prep beforehand. In a combat scenario at least.

Neither of them are even remotely similar to Green Arrow in tactics. Aside from both lacking his arsenal, they are military tacticians. Green Arrow is more of an improviser and will come up with new and original plans on the go, which has proven many times to make him a dangerous fighter.

Easier said than done.

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Good thing Ollie actually has done it then.

Actually I was addressing the part where you think that Ollie will just fly away and make distance any time the fight gets up and close. So I asked you what would he do if he eventually ran out of arrows

Once Ollie runs out of arrows, he'll go for a beer or get a beard trim or something since he will have won the fight by that point.

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#161 Posted by BruceRogers (17320 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:The manner in which he Drakon arrow times is definitely above the kind of bullet timing Daredevil does. Catching dozens fired in volleys at once from multiple shooters, all by the tips, without exerting himself and catching four arrows fired by the same bow with one hand is ridiculous. Far more so than the kind of bullet timing Daredevil does. Drakon may not be able to match every one of Daredevil's agility feats due to his limited appearances, but he's been able to do things such as leaping across entire rooms, so he clearly isn't a slouch in that area.

Me admitting that Drakon having faster combat speed than Daredevil notwithstanding, that is a rather bold statement. I can show you scans of Daredevil catching 3-4 arrows with one hand too or swatting away multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye, from different directions, the same way too. The latter was done with one arm in a sling no less. And before you ask, yes, Bullseye can throw projectiles with force that is equal too or even exceeds the force from a bow.

But it's rather redundant given the fact that if I know someone who can see arrows after they are fired and react to them and know another person can see bullets after they are fired and react to them, the latter will get my vote in the superior reaction time contest because bullets >> arrows anyway you look at it. Hence I say Daredevil > Drakon in terms of perception speed since the latter has no bullet perception feats. Now, Drakon has some pretty solid feats like moving so fast as to seem invisible to Roy, catching a huge volley of arrows with no effort and all at once etc and that makes me say Drakon > Daredevil in terms of movement speed.

And since we have established that Matt has far more quantifiable agility feats than Drakon, I would say overall avoidance, i.e perception speed +movement speed+ agility, Matt has shown to be better at avoidance than Drakon. Add a skill edge too and you cannot simply say that just because he tagged Constantine, he will tag Matt.

Connor's thoughts wouldn't be included if they weren't relevant. It's supposed to show the reader what he can do, without actually having him do it. If he couldn't, they wouldn't have put it in the comic without contradicting it later on.

That's not how this works, since character's speculating stuff is a very real thing. As to why it was included, that could just be Connor in awe at his speed and speaking in a hyperbolic manner. Unless you have a scan of him saying he has SEEN Drakon do that, speculation is still speculation.

Or better yet, show me scans of him reacting to bullets after they are fired and I will concede.

Now enough about Drakon. Moving on to Ollie...

It says in the scan that one arrow will map out the entire area, and feed the information back to his goggles. And obviously Oliver won't use them mid-battle, only if Daredevil disappears from his sight and tries stealth, which won't work anyway.

Define entire area, please.

I agree that Daredevil is generally a better climber than Green Arrow, but he sure as hell isn't climbing a building in less time than it takes a grappling arrow to get to the top with Oliver holding on.

Hell's yes he is. Besides the scan of me showing him climbing some 5 floors in a span of very few seconds, he has also crossed 500 meters with his billy club, before Bullseye could even react.

Proof that Ollie can top that?

Which is going to be hard with the distance, and Ollie is durable enough to not let go of an arrow that automatically carries him to the top with no effort on his part.

Say he hits the neck, eye or a nerve cluster. What then?.

Everything you mentioned is countered with trick arrows I've previously mentioned.

Not really.

The Hawkeye scan literally states that not faking it would give away his blindness.

Yeah, but nothing is shown about Hawkeye himself coming to that conclusion, so it's a moot point. Matt just overreacted, which cost him the fight.

He's not an idiot, and if Matt does that then Ollie isn't going to take risks like that again. He'll go for his most powerful arrows afterwards.

He doesn't have to be an idiot to get caught off guard like that. He can go for more powerful arrows, providing he is still breathing after Matt takes him on in close quarters.

Oliver has AOE arrows which can't be dodged, and I've shown quite a few ways he can negate cover entirely, or even turn it to his advantage.

Depends on the AOE arrows.

Agreed. A melee fight isn't something Green Arrow can win.

Alrighty.

A momentary distraction is all they're supposed to be. A moment is all that's needed for Ollie to pull something off with the second it buys him. Trick arrows or a retreat. I'm really not seeing how Matt can close the distance when his opponent has things like explosive and electrical arrows anyway.

Electrical arrows won't do much thanks to Matt's suit and ability to fight off attacks like this and the explosive arrow can only work if Matt is in range.

Punisher and Deadpool aren't really relevant here because of the projectiles they use and because of their obvious disadvantages in accuracy when compared to Green Arrow,

Projectile use?. You mean using bullets that travel far faster than arrows?. Boy, you really do believe that bows and better than guns, don't you?. And I am not sure how they compare with Ollie in terms of accuracy, but they both are master marksman in their own right. So you can't just write it off.

And even if Daredevil hasn't reacted to those bullets after they are fired (when past performance shows that he can if he wanted to), the fact that me moves too fast for them to tag speaks volumes of his speed and avoidance.

but Bullseye hasn't matched the fire rate Ollie showed in the scans I provided. He's similar in accuracy, but accuracy isn't the point I was making. It was rate of fire.

Well he has (unsuccessfully) spammed projectiles at him at a blindingly fast rate. But still, you are assuming that Matt is just going to be there in one position, parrying the arrows.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying Matt immediately gets one-shot by anything in Ollie's arsenal, because that won't happen. Regardless if Daredevil got back up or not, he was downed and that's going to play a major role here. Ollie isn't just going to lay off and give Matt a chance to get up after he gets put to the floor, he's going to press his advantage. Green Arrow's sonic arrows are so distracting that Hal Jordan can't focus to use his ring, Green Arrow's explosive arrows are powerful enough to blow motorcycles apart and Green Arrow's electrical arrows are powerful enough to immediately incapacitate four thugs when shot at the non-conductive ground near them. They won't be shrugged off.

And now you are missing the point. I never said Matt will shrug them off. He will be dazed and junk, but that is provided they connect properly. Matt's willpower is strong enough where he can fight through these injuries. Though it will affect his fighting ability

Also, the explosion Daredevil has taken on, was from Nitro and they were blowing away cars.

Lots. I'm not claiming that as soon as Matt is wrapped in a net arrow, that's it, the fight is over because he can't ever escape. It will make Matt vulnerable to a damaging arrow or will just allow Oliver to get to a rooftop, and once he's up there he's guaranteed to win the fight.

He can still use his billy clubs even when he is inside the net arrow.

As I've previously said, jumping over an arrow after it's fired isn't easy, and Ollie regularly exploits that as a tactic against people who would usually be too fast for his arrows. Or he could just shoot at the body for Matt to deflect them, in which case they would open up like that.

Matt can do stuff like that in his sleep and just because that tactic worked on Drakon, doesn't mean it will work on Matt. That is a fallacy. Given that Matt brings different things to the table.

Also, if Ollie is rapid firing arrows like you claim, it is far more likely they will be dodged or avoided via cover, than being caught or deflected away.

He is consistently this durable. That doesn't mean he'll be able to just stand there and laugh as Daredevil tries in vain to injure him with his hardest punches, because that would be ridiculous. It doesn't mean that he isn't consistently this durable, though. As far as I can remember, from 2001 onwards Oliver has never been knocked out through pure blunt force. The only time he's been significantly injured by it was against Constantine Drakon, (Who didn't manage to keep him down,) and that happened in the same issue that Oliver was tanking hits and grapples from superhuman monsters whilst smiling, showing that it's because Drakon is just that good. If you want a solid durability feat that still had Ollie being injured though, he was only bleeding after a prolonged fight with Roy Harper, when in that same arc Roy was breaking pillars with his kicks and hitting punching bags off the chain. Daredevil can hurt Green Arrow, but it won't be easy is all I'm saying.

I can say the same about Matt since he has been slapping around class 10-30s with brute force for long enough for me to call it consistent. But to elaborate, just like Ollie's durability feats, I wouldn't call them outlier, but I would still call it high end. Consistent, but high end.

And I never said Matt will one shot him or anything (sans nerve strikes), but he will go down soon.

How is Deathstroke being a better fighter than Green Arrow relevant at all? He's much better than Daredevil too. It's no failing of durability, only skill. Matt would get beaten down just as badly in that situation, and Oliver wasn't even in his prime then.

Absolutely not. I don't want to turn this into Deathstroke vs DD, but Matt has shown enough feats to suggest he will perform much better than Ollie by holding his own against him pretty well. I don't bank on him winning any majorities though.

You are just creating a false equivalence.

You have?

Aye

He has fought people like Batman, and spars with people like Connor Hawke and Black Canary. Deathstroke is very good with pressure points, and Slade's teacher taught him all he could in fighting skill. He should at the very least be able to identify them and find a workaround. They are Matt's best shot at winning this though, but it won't happen for a majority. Ollie has insane knowledge on human anatomy anyway, and has commented in the past on the best place to target people for different effects.

Sure, but that does not mean he will be immune to getting hit by them though. Matt has used them on people like Punisher and Elektra, both who have used nerve strikes and have a detailed knowledge on the human anatomy as well.

Also, that is not his best shot at winning since he can knock him down with brute force too. But not in one shot.

Green Arrow won't be on the offensive here. He's going to setup a perimeter to guard, and will know if Daredevil comes within that. He will find high ground and defend himself there. Plus, he has thermal goggles.

How will he magically know where Daredevil will be going in order to set up a perimeter?. And what is the point of thermal goggles?

Yes, he can get tagged. Just like Daredevil can get tagged by things like flechettes and conventional arrows. The thing is though, none are very likely to happen.

Okay

We have to look at more than just the speed of the projectiles, at the manner in which feats are performed.

Here is one of Daredevil's genuine bullet timing feats, where he reacts to a bullet fired from what looks to be a 1911, which has a muzzle velocity of 830 ft/s, and he reacted from about ten foot away with warning from his Radar Sense. Most modern compound bows fire arrows at 300 ft/s, and Oliver reacted when the arrow was behind him about eight inches away, when he had no warning. Even if we were to assume that the League of Assassins member and master archer Merlyn uses a bow that fires only at the average, Oliver is still clearly reacting better. Let's compare distance:

  1. Green Arrow - 8 inches
  2. Daredevil - 120 inches

Daredevil had fifteen times the amount of distance to react in, compared to Green Arrow. Now speed:

  1. Green Arrow - 300 ft/s
  2. Daredevil 830 ft/s

Daredevil had a 2.76666666667 times faster projectile to react to.

Just compare the above stats and see how massively superior Green Arrow's feat is when we look at only this. Then look at how Matt was aware the bullet was going to be fired and was already facing the shooter, and how Ollie had no warning and had to spin around completely before cutting the arrow in half. There really is no comparison.

The problem is, you are basically cherry picking one scan of Daredevil reacting to a supposedly inferior gun with a slower bullet and trying to compare that to Ollie's better feats and trying to pass that off as the norm.

I could do my scan dump again, but you are aware that he has reacted to bullets after they are fired from modern handguns and deflected bullets from rifles right?. So why not use them for comparison?

Also, Matt has swatted bullets by turning, too.

So no, GA's reaction feats don't compare to Matt's at all.

If he hasn't proven that he can, then he can't. It's as simple as that.

And yet you are trying to pass of Drakon as a bullet timer even when he has no evidence of doing so. Double standards much?

I mean, if he can jump that high with ease and you know he can perceive arrows after they are fired, you think he can't just jump over it?. Give me a break dude.

I'm not doubting he can jump over the height an arrow would be fired at. He can. What he can't do though, going by feats, is jump over one after it's already been fired. Saying that he can would just be a baseless assumption.

Lemme get this straight. You have a guy who can move his limbs fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired but him doing the same against freaking arrows is too much for you to swallow?

Wut?

Neither of them are even remotely similar to Green Arrow in tactics. Aside from both lacking his arsenal, they are military tacticians. Green Arrow is more of an improviser and will come up with new and original plans on the go, which has proven many times to make him a dangerous fighter.

Well then I guess you really need to read up on Punisher and Cap then. The former has held off and outsmarted the freaking avengers by improvising. Just saying.

Good thing Ollie actually has done it then.

That girl is comparable to Daredevil because...?

Once Ollie runs out of arrows, he'll go for a beer or get a beard trim or something since he will have won the fight by that point.

Sure, if the doctors at the hospital allow it :P

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#162 Edited by deactivated-5c7e1b5f631f5 (1472 posts) - - Show Bio

The distance should give green arrow the advantage

but i ultimately voted for DD

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#163 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

Overestimating Daredevil's speed? A guy that literally hit bullets out of the air when he's shot from literally a meter away from him? Do you think someone who can literally and in every essence of the word perform an arm motion between them time it takes a bullet to leave the barrel and get him when he's literally standing right in front of you as he did back in Daredevil: Reborn #4 when he was shot 3 times, 2 bullets right next to the other, effortlessly?

Yes, you're overblowing Daredevil's speed. We all know he's absurdly fast. But he's not faster than an explosion. You know, explosions go off at anywhere around 6,000 and 10k FPS. So much faster than any bullet fired from any weapon that it's not even funny. He's also definitely not faster than an electron, such as the electrons in the electric field created by an electric arrow.

What is a freaking arrow going to do against someone with this kind of reflexes? Can't you see arrows and their travel speed is absolutely no challenge for him? Look, i need you to get something through your skull... Daredevil's perceptive and reactionary speed is by all means, superhuman. The fact his senses are so heightened to the point he can even notice a nanosecond pause in a continuous frequency as showcased back in Daredevil vol.2 #4 is enough to claim he will see Green Arrow's attacks coming while he's still taking the arrow from his quiver, let alone dragging the bow back and shooting it.

No, I need YOU to get something through YOUR skull. Daredevil's perceptive and reactionary speed counts for peanuts when an explosion or an electric surge or anything of the sort goes off a meter away from him. He's not Wally West that can outrace electrons and explosions. You're still picturing Green Arrow trying to put an arrow through Matt's arm or knee or something, which obviously won't work, but it just fits your scenario so you're sticking to it.

C'mon now, you're absolutely mutilating the facts to fit a notion that hardly has a base to sustain itself while completely neglecting Daredevil absurdly consistent reactionary speed. He can outrace arrows the same way he outraces bullets, it's the same principle, just that bullets are dramatically faster than arrows. What is indeed being criminally overrated here is this "area of effect" you keep talking about... Like, hell, it is so freaking small.

No, Daredevil can't outrace a bullet nor an arrow. He can dodge/deflect them, yes, but he can't outrace them, again - he's not Wally West. He's still, after all, just a human with very keen senses. When an arrow comes whistling his way, he can jump aside - sure. But that won't help him when the arrow's whole purpose in the first place is hitting the floor beside him and exploding.

Go ahead, i want you to show me this insanely wide volley of explosive arrows being shot simultaneously. I'm positive you won't find a single instance depicting Green Arrow as you're implying here whereas everything stated on Daredevil's side has been confirmed through characterization in different instances, like, his arrows are counted to begin with and even if he doesn't run out of arrows because reasons, it is pretty damn clear he shoots his arrows thinking of not running out of arrows, not mindlessly using every single arrow in his disposal while ignoring the possibility of running out of ammo. What i'm trying to say is, he's not going to recreate the 300 movie scene while darkening the sky with explosive arrows on a character he doesn't know anything about. Daredevil on the other side MUST shorten the distance between them, hence why taking cover, hiding, running into buildings, etc, is reasonably expected to happen as a first counter-measure.

What about the instances that I've already posted? Namely:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Firing volleys of arrows is a common move for him, especially as an opening move. And that's not counting times he started a fight with volleys on non-trick arrows.

On the other hand, when has Daredevil ever did anything like entering buildings and trying to sneak up on an opponent that starts in plain sight? The one with the sniper doesn't count because the sniper actually was on top of the building, he had to go there. Against Deadpool he just danced around the gunfire until he got close enough to him for melee. This tactic will fail miserably against any of Oliver's trick arrows, no matter how you want to twist it to fit your false narrative.

His freaking fight with Deadshot proves as much, how he opts to be tactical instead of shooting 400 trick arrows at 300fps simultaneously to beat a single character... When on Earth has that ever happened? It's just ridiculous. Either way, i understand he shoots fast, but Daredevil also reacts insanely fast, there's cover and he certainly does not use his arrows mindlessly nor shoots a volley of explosive or trick arrows like you're implying.

No, you're ignoring context against Deadshot:

No Caption Provided

He was purposefully going easy on Deadshot because Deadshot was half-blinded by Oliver's magnesium flare arrow.

He can grab them... His gloves are insulated and i posted as much in my first comment.

Yes, we saw how good it did him:

No Caption Provided

He was completely knocked out by that electric surge. And since it was just a random electric cable from a felled lamp-post there's nothing to suggest that it was any more powerful that Oliver's electric surge, that is powerful enough to hurt Deathstroke even though it didn't touch him directly, then it's safe to assume that Green Arrow's electric arrow will work very effectively against Matt.

Also, his insulated suit didn't really help him here either:

No Caption Provided

Or you know, he could just jump away from the very small and partially insignificant area it covers when they are activated.

You're assuming that Matt will know it's an electric arrow to begin with. Sensing electric vibrations in the air won't help him when the vibrations only go off when they're a meter away from him, because again - he can't outrace electrons.

Yes, we already know that, the problem lies on the fact the area of effect is extremely reduced as opposed to your assumed effect. It's literally less than 5 meters at most, someone like Matt would dodge that effortlessly, even normal human would dodge it considering he can cover that much of a distance in less than a second.

Where does that 5 meters area of effect come from? Let's look at the scan once more:

No Caption Provided

So let's see here... the whole office floor was covered with ice, proof being that the fire covered the entire office and the ice put it all out. Now let's go with your 5 square meters theory, although it's completely unfounded and most probably false, but hey - I'm nothing if not a good sport. Now, obviously the ice stopped covering the floor when it ran out of floor to cover, right? But we can see that is completely covered the walls too, which means that if there was more floor to cover, it would have been covered as well. And that already adds more than 3 more meters to your 5 meter theory. But what happened when the ice ran out of walls to cover? It started going to the ceiling. At least 1 more meter added to it. So the ice covers more than 5 square meters. Far more. Daredevil can't outrace that either, since it's very evident from this scan that it goes off instantaneously.

Average olympic athletes can react to a gun shot and sprint in between 0.12 and 0.20 seconds, which means the arrow at best will travel just 60 feet after being shot before an average olympic athlete successfully react, now take that picture and elevate it exponentially, that's how fast Matt will react.

REACT, yes. REACT as in, making a move to avoid it. He can't cover more than 9 meters in less than a second. That's absurd. He. Is. Not. Wally. West.

You're acting as if Matt will do absolutely nothing as soon as the match starts and that Oliver will instantaneously predict what Daredevil is going to do, without even needing to aim at him and shoot the arrow perfectly on spot to freeze him... Can't you see just how far fetched that is when you're referring to someone that reacts after bullets have been shot, actually moving between the time the bullet travels from the barrel to him? Regardless, the arrow didn't cover an office room, it looked much more like a concierge central desk.

No, I'm just trying to explain to you that Matt may be able to react fast enough but he can't move out of the area of effect fast enough, because he isn't... well I'm starting to repeat myself now. And yes, Oliver will predict where Matt is going to go, this is what makes for a good marksman - and Oliver Queen is definitely one of, if not THE best. Moving out of the way of a bullet is impressive, it really is. But it's nothing compared to the velocity of an explosion, and much less to that of an electron.

And yes, the arrow did cover the entire room. You can see in the top panel that the whole place was on fire, and the arrow put it out completely. No way around it.

The arrow isn't even touching him. I'm sorry, but you're putting way too much on something that can even be avoided by an average olympic athlete, let alone Daredevil.

The arrow isn't supposed to touch him which is a point I've been making since the beginning and you're trying to ignore.

Hearing them before they are even near him is actually the point.

OK, and he's supposed to move away far enough from the effective range of the arrow in less than a second? For the sake of originality, I'll say that he is not Barry Allen.

Yes and Daredevil has been able to avoid being neutralized by gases consistently precisely because of this, hence why people started using gas that is absorbed through the skin instead of your normal lung filling gases. Regardless, the burden of proof is on you and i hope you make enough research to come up with an incriminating instance to debunk this. As far as his comics goes, this is as canon and applicable as a feat can get.

You have failed to post a single feat from the last 45 years of Daredevil resisting gas thanks to these filters. The burden of proof is not on me, it's on you. You posted ONE scan of Daredevil using that thing, from 45 years ago, and in a match he had prep for, against an enemy that he knows uses gas-based attacks (Daredevil states that he remembers his gas attacks from their last encounter). I can also post one-time feats of Green Arrow, it's easy. I can show you Green Arrow using lethal force with huge explosions that can fry Daredevil like a McDonald's chicken nugget the moment the fight begins, but I'm not doing it because debating with one-time occurrences is petty and it isn't how debating is done. C'mon, you know better than this, you're a veteran debater.

No... That's one of the main points i'm arguing. The arrows won't have any effect on Matt if they are not sonic arrows. He can shoot them close but Matt will avoid them rather effortlessly, the caliber of his reactions is well beyond arrows, sorry. You keep pushing this big area of effect while completely ignoring it isn't even 5 meters wide, hell, his explosive arrows has even a lesser area of effect than his cryogenic arrow. Your last example does have a decent area of effect, precisely because it is gas, easily propagated, however, it might as well not work on Matt for reason already stated.

You trying to lowball the area of effect that his arrows have is really pathetic, I know you a lot better than going for petty arguments like these, when it's evident in each and every scan that I posted that the area of effect is FAR larger than you're describing. And that's of each arrow individually, without taking in mind the fact that he will fire the arrows at volleys of 2 or more at a time like he very often does.

Also, Green Arrow is as likely to use a sonic arrow as he is to use any other trick arrow. Hoping that he doesn't is cool, but is not guaranteed.

Why? He's not new to trick arrows, if he smells glue in it he could simply opt to dodge it. Why would it affect Matt? I still don't understand how something that will be effectively dodged will affect him. What's your thought process behind this? Area of effect once again? You mean the rather sad area it covered in both scenarios? I mean...

Give me a break, Clint's trick arrows don't hold a candle to Oliver's, not in potency nor in versatility, and also not in how often or how creatively he uses them. My thought process is the same as it was all along and you know it well enough. It's just you grasping for straws and lowballing on-panel showings in order to push your false narrative.

You know how it feels but it seems you don't know how exactly does the gas performs all of that in your body. The wikipedia information explains how the gas works as in how everything starts to take place. What's the counter behind what Daredevil did in the instance. Didn't breath through his mouth, affecting his eyes is useless, nostril filters and a suit that protects most of his skin. The 20-30 second span was referring to skin irritation and i can bet all my money skin does not get irritated nigh-instantaneously.

I believe you, you probably know how it feels like. Still, nothing wrong with the explanation on Wikipedia.

You're very loose with your money then. Let me share an experience with you: in the IDF, every tyro in boot camp goes through a very painful experience called "NBC Tent", or "Hazmat Tent" if you will, in rough translation. The process is simple: You go into a large tent that is filled with CS gas, with a gas-mask on. After a few seconds you are instructed to take the mask off, and you have to remain there until you are told you can leave (which is usually around 30 seconds from the moment you take off your mask). When I got in the tent, my skin started to feel like I'm covered in sizzling coals in less than one second. When I took off the mask, I couldn't breathe. Simple as that. The burning sensation in my eyes was the least of my worries at that point. Even when I got out into the fresh air, I still couldn't breathe for at least 5-10 more seconds. This Wikipedia article is wrong and misleading. I have had the "pleasure" of experiencing tear gas on other occasions since then, but this is my first, worst, and most traumatic memory of it.

Regarding Daredevil's counter to it - he has none, unless you prove that he used those nostril filters as standard gear (as in, without the prep and prior knowledge that he had against Killgrave), anywhere in the last 45 years. I don't see how he avoids being suffocated, especially when it's evident in the scan that the arrows go off instantaneously. I mean, look at the scan again. The flight-path of the arrows appears in the same panel as the huge cloud of tear-gas, that, just like any other AOE arrow - covers a very large area, larger than 5 meters.

I'm not neglecting it, i'm saying arrows that need impact before activating are freaking useless against someone who can slap them away. Area of effect arrows are also useless if the target in question is much faster as far as reactions goes than the shooter to begin with, specially when the area of effect is significantly smaller than you're making it out to be. Yeah, i want to see those multi-trick arrows volleys, sound irresistibly legit. Inhuman marksmanship... Did you forget Daredevil's most iconic villain is also a ridiculous marksman? Bullseye? Routinely missing against Daredevil?

Slapping them away isn't the best idea, because, y'know... that would set them off. For example here:

No Caption Provided

As you can see, it took no more than the gentlest touch to activate the sonic arrow.

Besides, why would Matt deflect them? He doesn't know Green Arrow, and even if he knows that there's a trick arrow coming his way - he won't know its mechanism. When Green Arrow aims the arrow next to Daredevil, in front of Daredevil, etc - Matt would just think "Oh, what a lousy marksman, he can't even hit - " BOOM.

I won't go over the size of the AOE again because I already have at least twice in this post alone.

And no, I haven't forgotten about Bullseye, but Bullseye to the best of my knowledge doesn't use explosives, electric fields, ice fields, sonics and gas as his weapon of choice.

Oliver's non-trick arrows can go through metal and concrete. That's fine and i assumed as much when i made my first post. You on the other hand can't seem to understand he can't hit what he can't see, as it is blatantly showcased in the same fight with Deadshot when he shoots the arrows and fails miserably to hit him. Needless to say, i love his face when he couldn't do shit about a bullet cutting the string of his bow... Graciously done and perfectly presented as evidence.

False. The arrow that you saw going through that wall was a trick arrow - namely the bola arrow. But here are other examples of trick arrows showing the same level of penetration:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

  • First - a boomerang arrow goes through the head of a robot that tanked explosions in the same arc (it's Connor Hawke, but he was using Oliver's arrows in that issue).
  • Second - an explosive arrow goes through a wall, just like the one that the bola arrow went through (it's in the same building, as you can probably guess by the fact that Oliver went after the same man).

Also, in the fight against Deadshot, it again comes down to the context that I specified earlier - he was going easy on Deadshot. Moreover, Oliver himself was partially blinded by the magnesium flare too, so his aim wasn't at its best.

As to hitting what he can't see, false again:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • First-fires at a man that hides behind barrels.
  • Second-fires at a man hiding in a bush (the arrow is intercepted in mid air, but it was aimed perfectly nevertheless).

Also, he has thermal vision, so hiding is out of the question:

No Caption Provided

Awesome! Where's the evidence i asked for again? Here, let me ask you again. Unless you show me something as complex as what Daredevil has done and Green Arrow dodging it or reacting to it, i'm not buying this.

Since you go off about Daredevil reacting to bullets which are faster than arrows as evidence to show that he can react to arrows, I can go off about Oliver reacting to arrows (and bullets) which are faster than a thrown billy club as evidence to show that he can react to thrown billy clubs. Also, it's not like he's a stranger to people who use this weapon. Nightwing also uses trick shots with his escrima sticks, which are essentially exactly like Matt's clubs:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The complexity of Daredevil's trick shots is completely irrelevant. Green Arrow can react to the billy clubs because they're not faster than arrows, to which he regularly reacts, he is familiar with trick shots himself as well as with people who use trick shots with a weapon identical to Matt;s billy clubs. Everything works in his favor here.

Either way, i think i need to make emphasis on this because i just love it when the proof i need somehow is given to me by my opponent. I knew this was taken into account in comics, Green Arrow comics nonetheless.

No, it doesn't prove anything. On the contrary. Look at how many arrows Oliver has already used by that point. At least a dozen. And now look at his quiver. Looks pretty much full. That is enough proof that he has a ton of arrows at his disposal, and he won't run out of arrows in this fight.

Running out of arrows. Now, i can't wait for that massive trick arrow volley you have so much time talking about, seems like something Green Arrow would obviously do, with such a tactical and calculating mind of his.

Nobody said he has infinite arrows. But he does have a crap-ton of arrows, and running out is nothing to worry about.

Not at all, you at the very least need to showcase Green Arrow successfully reacting to ricochet tactics on Daredevil's level of complexity... What you showed me just now is him shooting arrows traveling in straight line, which i guess is a good feat, but not enough to counter what i'm claiming. This is a completely reasonable request considering there are people, who also posses a rather superhuman level of ricocheting ability with objects, that have been successfully able to react to Daredevil's tactics, like Bullseye... Then again, trick shots are his specialty, not so much Green Arrow's.

As I said, it's irrelevant. Green Arrow has everything he needs in order to intercept a billy club trick-shot.

By the same token, the fact Daredevil managed to literally shorten the distance between him and Bullseye back in Daredevil vol.5 #16, who was confirmed was holding a sniper 500 yards away from Daredevil in the span of a rather short moment while using his billy club throw as his first movement, means he should be completely capable of doing the same for someone standing simply 100 feet away.

So you're going for this argument again, suggesting that Daredevil is a speedster that can cover huge distances in split seconds, like you did with the sniper feat. That's just comics being hyperbolic of themselves which is utter BS. But you know what, let's go with it. Let me play by the same logic. Let us have a look at this showing here:

No Caption Provided

Now, let me explain what we see here. Oliver lets loose four arrows one after another and is about to shoot a fifth in quick succession. How quick? That's an easy one. Let me be kind and say that an arrow is 50 cm long. The difference between each arrow that he fired and the one that comes afterwards is about half of the arrow, which means 25 cm (it's actually less but again I'm being kind). As we already know, an arrow travels at 300 FPS, which are 90 meters per second, which are 9,000 cm per second. Which means that an arrow travels 25 cm at 1/360 of a second. So, with indisputable and accurate calculations, Green Arrow can fire up to 360 arrows per second. Now that is actually pretty cool because you wouldn't find any machine gun in the world that comes close to even half that speed, and since Daredevil hasn't faced anything that can fire in those speeds then Green Arrow's rate of fire alone is enough to determine that he can turn Matt Murdock into Pin-Cushion Murdock in less than a second even without trick arrows.

But, this is just one of those cases of comics being hyperbolic of themselves and on-panel showings that can't be taken seriously. Just like a man who isn't a speedster crossing 2 blocks, changing his entire outfit and climbing a skyscraper in a few seconds. But, since you're going for utter BS showings, I will do it too. And therefore, Matt has no answer to someone who can fire arrows at him faster than he can think, let alone move. While his brain is still processing the information that there's an arrow coming his way, 10 more arrows will be already on their way to anywhere Matt might want to move.

And before you ask, yes, Oliver has other similar showings of this insane rate of fire.

Again, is Daredevil too slow for Green Arrows massively hypersonic arrows or does he have the movement speed to confirm and prove to you he's completely capable of dodging his arrows? Likewise, it worths to note that in the same instance Daredevil managed to block the sniper bullet by moving his arm at the same time Bullseye was moving his finger to shoot with a weapon that can cover 2000 feet per second just 500 yards away, so the bullet arrives in less than a second, 0.75 seconds to be precise, if that's not reactionary enough for you, i have absolutely no idea what's the point of keep arguing, unless of course, you have another reason to discard this as well.

I believe I answered that question. And again, "reactionary" means nothing when you can't get out of the way of an explosion fast enough.

Daredevil can see the arrow behind his cover, you know, Radar Sense and all that. Meaning he can successfully position himself where the arrow does not even touch him while covering, not that he's going to last that much time behind the cover, as most of the time will be spent in shortening the distance instead of camping behind this "hypothetical car".

OK, he can see the arrow coming. Will he expect it to penetrate his cover? No he will not.

How exactly? By freezing everything in-front the cover, ergo, not touching Daredevil at all? By popping his gas arrows that have been extensively debunked already? By using explosive arrows whose area of impact is nothing but unimpressive? C'mon man, you haven't even addressed the fact Daredevil might go inside a building where his arrows will have little to no practical effect whatsoever.

All of the above have been addressed and debunked. Regarding the possibility of him entering a building, well again I will ask when exactly has he taken these huge detours when his enemy is directly 100 ft in front of him, in plain, uh... "sight"? According to what you have showed this far, he opts for parkouring and cartwheeling his way toward the enemy while throwing billy clubs. Even against Bullseye who is also a long-range-based opponent, he just threw the billy club and climbed at him, no detours or anything.

Yes, the same way Daredevil can simply opt to go inside a building and take this fight to the roofs, hide himself successfully. Again, it is a city landscape, the battleground is rather gigantic with an absurd amount of utility laying around.

Taking the fight onto a rooftop will be a bad idea since he will have nowhere to hide and nothing to use for cover, which is the only thing that somehow delays his inevitable loss down in the streets.

Oh sure, yeah. So i guess Green Arrow shooting at what it seems to monsters, some of them barely bothered by the explosion, translates into Green Arrow blowing the hell out of everything Daredevil takes cover with. I don't know, i think you're actually stretching his character, even your own proof goes against you. Like using incendiary arrows against a covered target instead of using another type of arrow.

OK, Daredevil isn't a monster. Do you think he can walk off a car exploding in his face?

Regarding the incendiary arrow, it again falls into the context of him going easy on Floyd.

As per the Billy Club, i hope you're aware your feat involves Green Arrow literally looking at another archer shoot his arrows whereas the Billy Club will be thrown from a completely non-visible position and noticed from an unexpected position. I don't know, it just seems rather ridiculous to think he will simply shot it away, when most likely he'll prefer to dodge it considering the situation.

I already proved otherwise.

Even though i have absolutely no idea what's the counter behind this particular part addressing what i posted, let's play devil's advocate (ironically applicable given the characters involved) here. Instead of assuming he reacted to a projectile he wasn't aware of, why not assume he was actually looking at the arrow by looking at the reflection on his binocular lenses?

Wow, that is your worst reach yet my friend. You're not even grasping at straws anymore, you're grasping at thin air. First of all, it's completely evident that the binoculars were lowered and his eyes were fixed elsewhere. Second, he was preoccupied fighting against Brick when the arrow came at him, so it makes more sense that his eyes will be fixed on his opponent rather than on a pair of binocular lenses. Third, the lenses don't show any reflection. This is a nice theory you made, but just a theory nevertheless. Guesswork and assumptions will not take you very far against on-panel showings.

It is a very good feat, don't get me wrong, but hardly one that revolves around an unexpected projectile coming from him. As i see it, given the position of his binoculars and how conveniently located it is in this particular panel, i fall behind the notion he was aware of it and reacted accordingly. Either way, highly subjective point to say the least and neither of us can provide the tie-breaker here.

Except you don't have proof for your theory and the burden of proof is on you. On the other hand, I have listed 3 reasons to debunk your theory and I'm sure I can list more if I give it enough thought, but this theory is so far-fetched and baseless that it really isn't worth the time or the effort.

I can at the very least be reasonable about the use of the sword, even though i do not agree he will be able to do it, but shooting it down with an arrow when you've showcased nothing but Green Arrow, totally seeing the arrows being shoot at him with linear movement, which is the same as say, dodging a bullet from a shooter standing in front of you.

OK, so he will slice the billy club with his sword, or even swat it away with his bow, heck he can probably even catch it. He has the skills and the means to deal with the billy clubs here, they aren't even registered as a threat. They're a great weapon against a lesser foe, but not against Oliver Queen.

The awareness is irrelevant, what matters about the feat is Daredevil disappeared in plain sight and shortened a distance of a couple of city blocks under seconds, you know, after he also suited up in between that span of time.

See my above response to utter BS showings.

I'm not, all i'm doing is presenting counters with tangible proof about what's going to happen, all you're doing is repeating yourself over and over while stretching the effectiveness of whatever Green Arrow is going to do. Unreasonably overrating the area of effect of his arrows, taking his approach completely out of character and indirectly underrating Daredevil's speed and wits. Hardly an objective stance to say the least.

Except your proof is not tangible. You're saying that Matt's movement speed exceeds the velocity of an explosion and/or of electrons which is false. You assume to know the size of the area of effect of the arrows although it is easily proven false by simply looking at the scans. His approach is definitely in-character, as I have already showed many different instances of Oliver starting a fight with a volley of several arrows, many of those showings involve one or more trick arrows of different types. I am not underrating Daredevil's speed and wits, I never suggested that he will sprint those 100 feet at Oliver's face like an angry bull. I acknowledged that he will evade and try using cover, but I also explained several methods of how Green Arrow can, and will, counter that. You are the one underrating here. You're underrating Oliver's accuracy, you're underrating his tactical thinking abilities, you're underrating his rate of fire (even without going for the faster-than-a-machine-gun calculations), and you're underrating the potency of his trick arrows - that he characteristically uses consistently - while claiming that outracing an explosion or an electric surge should be a walk in the park for Matt, and you also underrate Oliver's ability to react to a trick shot of a billy club, which has been addressed and proven numerous times already.

Close combat, disarmament, breaking the arrows, throwing the quiver aside.

It's not going to come to close combat. And it's not like Oliver is a little girl with pigtails, while he isn't as skilled as Matt when it comes to close quarters, he is definitely not a pushover and disarming him of his trick arrows in the ways you suggested will not be easy and will actually leave Matt open for a blow with the sword. Not to mention that, as I explained earlier, breaking the arrows will actually set them off.

Also, he's welcome to try and touch the quiver:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Ollie's quiver is electric and packs enough of a punch to knock Black Canary unconscious and make Barry Allen fall to the ground with a seizure for long enough to allow Oliver to run a considerable distance. Considering the awful track-record of Matt's "insulated suit", it's safe to say that this will knock him out cold.

Again, you're missing the point. This feat was mentioned to show you how Matt can cover rather large areas of a city street effortlessly while maintaining pressure in close combat, ultimately being capable of disabling someone with incapacitation tactics. Green Arrow having a much slower rate of fire than Deadpool, with also a slower weapon is going to prove detrimental for him when this particular moment comes. It's undeniable.

No, you're the one missing the point mate. You're forgetting that jumping around bullets is all nice and dandy, but trying to jump around explosions is something else entirely. If Matt does manage to get THIS close to Green Arrow, which is very unlikely to begin with, he will be a very easy target for an AOE trick arrow. He is unlikely to be able to escape the area of effect even at 100 feet, but in this close range the idea is laughable. Also, I see no reason why Oliver won't just go for the same tactic as he did against Deadshot and just manually activate a sonic arrow, which would win the fight for him. I mean, if Matt DOES get this close to him while avoiding trick arrows, Ollie would realize that he is far too fast to try and take on in melee combat, and will use a smarter option instead. From that point it's very easy to cuff him with a handcuff arrow or something. Game over.

That's cute. Daredevil dances around people that does this routinely. I fail to see the point of presenting this considering it is against fodder and because everyone here already assumed from the beginning Green Arrow had bullet timing feats, like most street levelers with a name.

Exactly, so combined with his experience and knowledge of trick shots, as well as knowing and fighting alongside people who use a similar weapon with similar tactics, a billy club won't be much of a problem for him.

I have another interpretation. Fodder was missing, the same way he missed some arrows, then he positioned himself by noticing how they were aiming and made them miss even more. Basically it's the same as saying one of those thugs was shooting and dodging his arrows as well, considering that's what's shown in the scan as well. Got my drift?

You're again grasping at less than straws. His enemies dodging the arrows is not the point, and is just a one time low-end feat for him as I'm sure you know very well (unless you're doubting Oliver's accuracy, in which case I will happily prove you wrong). The more logical explanation will be that he legitimately dodged the bullets, like you said you were going off the assumption that he has legit bullet timing feats. Again I will explain, that in the second panel, the thugs are taking the shot, which is evident by the "BLAM"'s and the muzzle flash, while Oliver is still right in front of them. In the very next panel Oliver is shown evading the bullets' trajectory, which can only mean one thing - he reacted to the bullets after they were fired. The thugs missing is unlikely seeing as they were many and each of them fired more than one shot.

Yes he can shoot arrows mid-flight. Yes he can react to an arrow shot from behind and cut it in half inches away from him. Yes he has a bullet timing feat. He knows trick shots... Everything else, you lost me. You know, you keep doing this false equivalence argument that because he knows some trick shots he will be able to react to Daredevil's trickshots... Doesn't that cause static in your head? Like, something particularly important is missing? This is what you got so far:

How is that a false equivalence? He knows and has experience with trick shots and he has the reflex feats to suggest he can react to them. I really don't understand where I lost you, it only makes sense.

  • Green Arrow can shoot arrows mid-flight. ✔
  • Green Arrow can react to projectiles inches away from him shot from behind. ✔
  • Green Arrow knows trick shots. ✔

OK you really have to tell me how you do those ticks, it's really cool.

Now, this is what you're completely overlooking about everything you just stated.

Green Arrow was looking at the archer shooting the arrows, meaning he had the predict where the arrows where going to be considering they were normal arrows and were shot in straight line. ✘

Conclusion: he is an arrow-timer, and therefore can react to things that move far slower than arrows.

Green Arrow might have been looking at the projectile with his binocular lenses as a reflection and actually took him all that time to react to the projectile at hand. A good feat, or maybe a bad one. Regardless, completely reasonable argument there. ✘

This cool theory was debunked already. Green Arrow can legit react to projectiles that come from any direction other than right in front of him.

Someone knowing how to use a gun does not make him able to react to a bullet. Hopefully you understand the analogy. In simple words... You're missing the key factor of showing Arrow reacting to something remotely similar to Daredevil's billy clubs while ricocheting. This evidence is vital for you to claim he can react to them, even more so when people that have the same feats as Green Arrow, can't seem to react as easily as you're claiming, like Bullseye, Iron Fist and even Spider-Man. ✘

Yes, but someone who reacts to something that's faster than a bullet, can definitely react to a bullet.

Also, I'm glad that Cap, Bullseye, Danny and Spidey were tagged by the clubs, good for them. And the Punisher effortlessly shot one down inches away from his face. Green Arrow has consistent showings that suggest he can react to projectiles with higher velocity than a billy club that come from awkward angles, as well as knowledge on trick shots as well as history fighting alongside people who use the same weapon in the same way, and other characters' low-end showings don't change that. Oliver has not a single bad enough showing to suggest that he will be tagged by the billy clubs.

Also, you gotta tell me how you do those X's too.

You're not claiming it but judging by how far fetched and drastically unlikely your approach is, both on Green Arrow and Daredevil's end, you're indirectly assuming he's a simple guy that will be taken out of the equation easily with an absurd amount of things that i'm pretty sure won't be happening any time soon. Of course he's outclassed in long range, he doesn't have anything remotely close to a ranged weapon to fight in ranged combat, hence why he's closing the gap.

I'm not assuming anything and I never said Green Arrow will win easily, but a hard-earned win is still a win. All I'm doing is explaining time and time again why the approach I suggested is perfectly in-character for Oliver to use and why it's good against Daredevil. You, on the other hand, assume that Oliver will just stand there like a chump and try to snipe Daredevil. Didn't it cross your mind that he will work to increase the gap all the while?

Green Arrow is far from being the most versatile street-leveler, he would still need to surpass Batman, Taskmaster and Hawkeye himself, let alone independent characters i don't feel like mentioning.

That's actually subjective and it really isn't an important point, but he definitely is more versatile than Matt and versatile enough to counter anything that he might bring to the table.

The underlined part is the key point about all of this... That's all he's got and that's all you've arguing for here. You don't actually have a counter for someone who is fast enough to dodge and avoid being affected by his arrows, so you simply choose to repeat yourself while seemingly ignoring what is showcased to you. Daredevil is fast enough to overcome the distance gap and in close quarter combat, Daredevil is just in his own league, not fast enough to fight Spider-Man nowadays, but faster than someone like Wolverine or Captain America.

Well I chose to underline the key part as well. You're just stating that Daredevil can move fast enough to avoid being tagged by explosions, electric fields, ice fields, sonics or gas, while providing all of zero feats to back that up. In fact there were several feats presented by others here showing Daredevil failing to escape explosions. For example:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In the top panel of the first page, it is even evident that he knew he was about to get hit with an explosion, and he still ran all of 2 steps before being blown away. In a city setting that you keep bringing up as if it were a huge game changer. Knowing that the explosion is coming makes zero difference. And yes, of course it was from close range, but it was far slower than an arrow as well. Also the explosion was pretty small considering that the man who threw the explosive at him was not even knocked back by it, and Matt himself was evidently hurt.

You keep mentioning this volley and you haven't showcased anything to support this. May i PLEASE have some sort of evidence Green Arrow will actually go for a volley full of explosive, glue, cryogenic, sonic and gas arrows? It just seems ridiculously unlikely at this point. He's a tactician with a limited amount of arrows, specially non-common ones... Why would someone so smart opt to blindly go for a volley against a character he knows nothing about... What about thinking he might need those after figuring out things that tell him more about who is he fighting in this match? I can't be the sole person in this thread taking this into account and in the comics itself, Merlyn made it abundantly clear these type of things are taken into account. Your whole strategy is rubbish and pardon my french. Don't take this personally, i'm just a bold person, specially while debating.

I showed several occurrences of Oliver starting a fight with a volley of arrows, including trick arrows, even before this post. You had the evidence all along, you just chose to ignore it. Merlyn's statement is irrelevant because he was having an archery contest with Oliver, it wasn't just a regular fight. Again you're missing the context:

No Caption Provided

I circled the relevant bits. It was an archery contest.

And don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally, it's all in good sportsmanship. If you think I'm a softie because of that Hulk thread from a few days ago then you have the wrong idea.

He does... He's fast enough to not get caught in any area of effect phenomena and smart enough to get proper cover, as in, go inside buildings to minimize the chances of being spotted, ergo, also reducing the chances of being shot with something while effectively concealing himself like the absurdly proficient ninja he is. Trick Arrow Volleys are a tactic completely made up and taken entirely out of characterization. Not all covers can't be countered and you've failed to provide the proper evidence to showcase this as well.

He has no showings that suggest he's fast enough to outrace explosions, let alone something much faster like an electric surge. He does have showings that explicitly show the exact opposite. His ninja-ness is nice and all, but not against Oliver who has keen senses and awareness that allow him to detect unseen opponents, mapping arrows that can give him the full picture of all his surroundings, and thermal goggles that render any stealthy approach completely useless. Volleys of trick arrows are an opening move that Oliver has used numerous times in the past and there's no reason to assume that he won't use it here as well, you choosing to ignore those showings that I posted more than once is your own problem and frankly, I'm really surprised at you, I know you're better than flat-out ignoring your rival debater's showings.

My summary:

  • Daredevil has no showings to suggest that he is fast enough to escape an explosion, an ice field or an electric surge coming his way, unlike your bold statements. He does, however have showings proving the exact opposite.
  • Daredevil's protection against gas is a one-time showing from 45 years ago that wasn't even mentioned ever since.
  • Daredevil's protection against electricity has a horrible track record and it certainly not good enough to protect him against Oliver's electric arrows.
  • Daredevil can try and go for stealth, but he will fail because Oliver has the awareness to detect him, mapping arrows, and thermal vision. Moreover, Oliver can use the chance to get to a rooftop, where Matt will have no cover to use and will be easily beaten.
  • Taking cover behind cars, walls, or anything of the sort that can be found in a generic street as cover, can be countered with arrows that can go through walls and cinder blocks, or with AOE arrows.
  • Green Arrow will work to increase the distance between himself and Matt. Regardless, the closer Matt gets, the easier target he becomes and the harder it is for him to avoid Green Arrow's shots and especially trick arrows, and if he gets too close, then there's no reason why Oliver won't repeat the tactic he used against Deadshot with the sonic arrow.
  • Green Arrow has the awareness and the reaction speed in order to react to a billy club throw. He also has expertise in trick-shots as well as personally knowing and fighting alongside someone who often uses trick shots with a weapon identical to billy clubs. That is enough to safely say that the billy clubs will not be a big factor in this fight.
  • If Daredevil gets withing hand-to-hand distance, Green Arrow can use his trick arrows manually to gain an advantage, and Daredevil trying to disarm him of the trick arrows will be very counter-productive.
  • Utter BS and hyperbolic showings are not a good argument in a debate. But, if you're making this case, I can make it too, and my BS showings trump your BS showings.
  • Green Arrow wins.

Your turn bud.

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#165 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio
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#166 Posted by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: your scan from daredevil vol 1 issue 159 has context... it's also cherry picked considering Matt has batted aside multiple bullets fired at the same time at much much closer ranges. One example is in daredevil man without fear issue 5 (I might be misremembering the issue number) where he richocchets two bullets back to the shooter from point blank range. I can't post scans because I'm on mobile

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#167 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

I can show you scans of Daredevil catching 3-4 arrows with one hand too

Not when they're aimed in different places. The best he's done is catch them when they're bundled together.

swatting away multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye, from different directions, the same way too. The latter was done with one arm in a sling no less.

Swatting away multiple projectiles doesn't even compare to catching dozens of arrows fired at the same time, all by the tip.

And before you ask, yes, Bullseye can throw projectiles with force that is equal too or even exceeds the force from a bow.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Oliver's bow is powerful enough to send arrows straight through armoured truck doors and robots. It isn't standard.

But it's rather redundant given the fact that if I know someone who can see arrows after they are fired and react to them and know another person can see bullets after they are fired and react to them, the latter will get my vote in the superior reaction time contest because bullets >> arrows anyway you look at it. Hence I say Daredevil > Drakon in terms of perception speed since the latter has no bullet perception feats. Now, Drakon has some pretty solid feats like moving so fast as to seem invisible to Roy, catching a huge volley of arrows with no effort and all at once etc and that makes me say Drakon > Daredevil in terms of movement speed.

And since we have established that Matt has far more quantifiable agility feats than Drakon, I would say overall avoidance, i.e perception speed +movement speed+ agility, Matt has shown to be better at avoidance than Drakon. Add a skill edge too and you cannot simply say that just because he tagged Constantine, he will tag Matt.

Drakon is clearly more capable in reacting to things like arrows than Daredevil is, which makes tagging him particularly relevant. Regardless of who has better senses between the two, Drakon is better at reacting to the projectile Green Arrow tagged him with. Ergo, Green Arrow can tag Daredevil.

That's not how this works, since character's speculating stuff is a very real thing. As to why it was included, that could just be Connor in awe at his speed and speaking in a hyperbolic manner. Unless you have a scan of him saying he has SEEN Drakon do that, speculation is still speculation.

Or better yet, show me scans of him reacting to bullets after they are fired and I will concede.

But there is clearly a reason for it being in there. Connor knows what he's talking about, and it should show that Drakon is capable of it. The author specifically added that into the story, because he wants to tell us how fast Drakon is.

Define entire area, please.

Where they're fighting. As I said later in my post, Green Arrow will be on the defensive, and he has thermal goggles.

Hell's yes he is. Besides the scan of me showing him climbing some 5 floors in a span of very few seconds, he has also crossed 500 meters with his billy club, before Bullseye could even react.

Proof that Ollie can top that?

No Caption Provided

He can do shit like this, all whilst being shot at, and in a city like Manhattan climbing regularly will be hard. Since Green Arrow will be the one retreating with Daredevil after him, I don't see why Daredevil will be able to cross 100 feet and then up Oliver, all before he can simply shoot a grappling arrow at the top of a tall building. It isn't going to happen.

Say he hits the neck, eye or a nerve cluster. What then?.

From 100 feet away, whilst Ollie is defending? It seems very unlikely.

Not really.

Really.

Yeah, but nothing is shown about Hawkeye himself coming to that conclusion, so it's a moot point. Matt just overreacted, which cost him the fight.

They wouldn't have put it in the comic if we weren't supposed to assume what Matt said was true.

He doesn't have to be an idiot to get caught off guard like that. He can go for more powerful arrows, providing he is still breathing after Matt takes him on in close quarters.

Matt wins in close quarters, but Ollie's superior physicals (You'll disagree on this) in combination with his remarkable skill mean that he should at least be able to hold his own.

Depends on the AOE arrows.

  • Cryonic arrows
  • Electrical arrows
  • Explosive arrows
  • Incendiary arrows
  • Grenade arrows
  • Sonic arrows
  • Two-stage rocket arrows
  • Explosive gas arrows

To name a few.

Electrical arrows won't do much thanks to Matt's suit and ability to fight off attacks like this

TRV has provided scans showing that Matt can be harmed with electric, and Ollie's arrows are good enough to harm Deathstroke.

the explosive arrow can only work if Matt is in range.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Explosives have pretty large radius's. Matt isn't supersonic, and he won't be dodging them.

Projectile use?. You mean using bullets that travel far faster than arrows?. Boy, you really do believe that bows and better than guns, don't you?. And I am not sure how they compare with Ollie in terms of accuracy, but they both are master marksman in their own right. So you can't just write it off.

And even if Daredevil hasn't reacted to those bullets after they are fired (when past performance shows that he can if he wanted to), the fact that me moves too fast for them to tag speaks volumes of his speed and avoidance.

Their lack of accuracy compared to Ollie is why they're irrelevant. He's aim dodged them every time, which is something that won't happen here. That's why Bullseye is much more relevant to this fight.

Well he has (unsuccessfully) spammed projectiles at him at a blindingly fast rate.

That's very vague. I'm almost certain that Bullseye has never replicated Oliver's fire speed that I showed in my last post.

But still, you are assuming that Matt is just going to be there in one position, parrying the arrows.

No I'm not. I'm assuming he'll be downed after being blown up and electrocuted.

And now you are missing the point. I never said Matt will shrug them off. He will be dazed and junk, but that is provided they connect properly.

Like I said, Matt isn't supersonic so he isn't dodging an explosion. Once he's down, Oliver is going to press the advantage.

Matt's willpower is strong enough where he can fight through these injuries. Though it will affect his fighting ability

He can fight through injury no doubt, but he isn't just going to keep getting up after being shot. It will take its toll, and Ollie will fire more when he's downed. The gap won't get closed. It's going to take more than just him being able to fight through injury to win this.

Also, the explosion Daredevil has taken on, was from Nitro and they were blowing away cars.

Oliver has blown up motorcycles and aircraft with his explosives. This just means he'll have to hold back less.

He can still use his billy clubs even when he is inside the net arrow.

He can? And remember the bolas arrows.

Matt can do stuff like that in his sleep and just because that tactic worked on Drakon, doesn't mean it will work on Matt. That is a fallacy. Given that Matt brings different things to the table.

Green Arrow has already shown he can tag people who are at least similar to Daredevil. Daredevil has never shown he can counter people like Green Arrow, who have insane marksmanship as well as unavoidable trick arrows. Green Arrow's experience is more useful against Daredevil than vice versa. Matt doesn't have to be identical to Drakon in every way for his tactics to work against him.

Also, if Ollie is rapid firing arrows like you claim, it is far more likely they will be dodged or avoided via cover, than being caught or deflected away.

All of these things have been debunked. Mainly with trick arrows.

I can say the same about Matt since he has been slapping around class 10-30s with brute force for long enough for me to call it consistent. But to elaborate, just like Ollie's durability feats, I wouldn't call them outlier, but I would still call it high end. Consistent, but high end.

And I never said Matt will one shot him or anything (sans nerve strikes), but he will go down soon.

This should balance out for both of us then. Let's leave it at that.

Absolutely not. I don't want to turn this into Deathstroke vs DD, but Matt has shown enough feats to suggest he will perform much better than Ollie by holding his own against him pretty well. I don't bank on him winning any majorities though.

You are just creating a false equivalence.

Not once in this thread have I claimed that Green Arrow is a better melee fighter than either Deathstroke or Daredevil. I don't think he is, and that's not the point I was making.

Sure, but that does not mean he will be immune to getting hit by them though. Matt has used them on people like Punisher and Elektra, both who have used nerve strikes and have a detailed knowledge on the human anatomy as well.

Yes, this is what could pull Matt some wins. It's unlikely the gap between the two fighters will be closed, though.

Also, that is not his best shot at winning since he can knock him down with brute force too. But not in one shot.

Making pressure points... A better shot.

How will he magically know where Daredevil will be going in order to set up a perimeter?

He won't. That's why he's setting up a perimeter. Ollie doesn't need to go after Matt. He sets up where he wants to defend, and then Daredevil comes after him. The whole point of perimeters is for defense, which Green Arrow will fortify with a mapping arrow.

And what is the point of thermal goggles?

To locate Daredevil, assuming the mapping arrows won't work. (They will.)

The problem is, you are basically cherry picking one scan of Daredevil reacting to a supposedly inferior gun with a slower bullet and trying to compare that to Ollie's better feats and trying to pass that off as the norm.

I could do my scan dump again, but you are aware that he has reacted to bullets after they are fired from modern handguns and deflected bullets from rifles right?. So why not use them for comparison?

Also, Matt has swatted bullets by turning, too.

So no, GA's reaction feats don't compare to Matt's at all.

It wasn't my intention to pick a lower end feat and use that for comparison, sorry. That's just a specific feat I had in mind when posting, and it certainly wasn't an intentional attempt to lowball. Which better bullet timing feats would like to compare with Ollie's arrow timing? And I mean genuine, irrefutable bullet timing rather than aim blocking with his Radar Sense.

And yet you are trying to pass of Drakon as a bullet timer even when he has no evidence of doing so. Double standards much?

If Hawkeye had a statement saying, "This guy could flip over one of my arrows" or something along those lines you'd have a point, but what you're comparing is completely different.

I mean, if he can jump that high with ease and you know he can perceive arrows after they are fired, you think he can't just jump over it?. Give me a break dude.

Lemme get this straight. You have a guy who can move his limbs fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired but him doing the same against freaking arrows is too much for you to swallow?

Wut?

Drakon could also jump that high, and he couldn't jump over it. It isn't about how high you can jump, it's about how quickly you can leave the ground.

Well then I guess you really need to read up on Punisher and Cap then. The former has held off and outsmarted the freaking avengers by improvising. Just saying.

I don't literally mean that either Cap or Punisher will be completely helpless if they find themselves in a situation they haven't planned for. They can obviously do things on the go. But the style of how they improvise and plan is completely different, and neither use trick arrows.

That girl is comparable to Daredevil because...?

Now you're just reaching. He has proven that creating distance between himself and people much faster and better at melee than him is a viable tactic.

Let's go through how we think the fight will go down though. Let's look at all the things Daredevil has to go through before he can beat Green Arrow up close.

  1. Close an 100 foot gap against somebody incredibly fast as they make their way backwards.
  2. Avoid environmental hazards that can be exploited, like lampposts and cars.
  3. Tank all of Oliver's trick arrows.
  4. Recover fast enough after being shot at with trick arrows to not be vulnerable when the advantage is pushed.
  5. Climb to the top of a building faster than an insanely agile person with grappling arrows 100 feet away from them.
  6. Sneak up on Green Arrow, who has great senses and mapping arrows.
  7. Deal with trick arrows up close.
  8. Re-close the gap after Oliver has created more distance, who is now more serious.
  9. Beat Oliver whilst massively weakened.

He doesn't even make it to 9. Daredevil is not beating Green Arrow for a majority under these settings. He can't close the gap because he has no counter to trick arrows.

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#168 Posted by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: yeah, I posted a reply, then accidentally deleted it. I couldn't get it back, so I posted it again.

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#169 Edited by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: your scan from daredevil vol 1 issue 159 has context... it's also cherry picked considering Matt has batted aside multiple bullets fired at the same time at much much closer ranges. One example is in daredevil man without fear issue 5 (I might be misremembering the issue number) where he richocchets two bullets back to the shooter from point blank range. I can't post scans because I'm on mobile

Most of the "Bullet timing" feats people use for Daredevil aren't actual bullet timing, and are in fact aim blocking with the help of his Radar Sense. The scans I showed are one of the few examples of Matt genuinely and irrefutably reacting to a bullet after it's fired.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here are instances which explain that Matt moves before the bullets are fired.

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No Caption Provided

The one I posted is unique in that we clearly see him move after the bullet is fired. There is one or two more, but I'll wait for them to be brought up before doing a comparison on them.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the instance you're thinking of. There is no statement that Matt is using his Radar Sense to move before the shot is fired, but all the other times it's said gives context so that it isn't repetitive whenever he deflects a bullet. So if it's ambiguous, I'll always assume it's aim blocking because of his Radar Sense, even though he does have a few feats of genuine bullet timing.

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#170 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: And how do you expect Daredevil to close the gap when being shot at with unavoidable AOE arrows? Tanking them isn't a very viable strategy, and cover isn't going to work.

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#171 Posted by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: I'll respond to you when I get home from work.

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#172 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio
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#173 Posted by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: but how I want to respond to you is gonna take me being at my PC to accomplish. I require being able to post scans for what I want to do

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#174 Posted by Warlockmage (9223 posts) - - Show Bio

Daresevil is so far ahead in the polls. Ghostravage and Bruce really knocked it out of the park

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#175 Posted by Royal_Warrior (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

100 feet too short of a distance for Ollie to win and this may be an unpopular opinion but with his bully clubs he has feats on par accuracy wise with Ollie

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#176 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio
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#177 Edited by cptstormsword (314 posts) - - Show Bio

^bingo

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#178 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Daresevil is so far ahead in the polls. Ghostravage and Bruce really knocked it out of the park

I would love to see you making an actual case instead of piggybacking on other people's hard work. Also:

Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

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#179 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: He isn't stating the polls, take a closer look at what he's said:

Daresevil is so far ahead in the polls.

He's talking about the overpowered character Daresevil, who isn't in this fight for obvious reasons. He'd solo everyone here.

Seriously though, the guy's salty because I keep upsetting him on other threads.

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#180 Edited by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@the_red_viper: He isn't stating the polls, take a closer look at what he's said:

Daresevil is so far ahead in the polls.

He's talking about the overpowered character Daresevil, who isn't in this fight for obvious reasons. He'd solo everyone here.

Seriously though, the guy's salty because I keep upsetting him on other threads.

Yeah. Daresevil's level is closer to Dra'nakyuek, the Destroyer of Worlds.

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#181 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio
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#182 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#183 Edited by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: @brucerogers:

Drakon is clearly more capable in reacting to things like arrows than Daredevil is, which makes tagging him particularly relevant. Regardless of who has better senses between the two, Drakon is better at reacting to the projectile Green Arrow tagged him with. Ergo, Green Arrow can tag Daredevil.

This is a false equivalence. I've already debunked Drakon as a potential reason as to why Ollie will tag Daredevil. Here's the post:

@hypnozzz said:
@lubub55 said:

Moreover, Ollie has tagged Constantine Drakon before by shooting tactically, when Drakon is faster than Matt. (I can expand on this.) He fires at Drakon's feet where the arrow can't be intercepted after using a trick arrow on him. The specific trick arrow he used there in that way would be irrelevant against a blind man, but either Matt fakes it or Ollie realises he's blind, and if the latter happens then Ollie is going to whip out the sonic arrows. As a replacement for a glue arrow, Ollie has actually done this same trick against Red Hood by using the environment to his advantage in a location which didn't favour him.

To be fair Drakon has some fatal flaws in his character that lead to Ollie being able to tag him. For one he's over confident, and secondly he leans more on the side of catching arrows rather than dodging them which would make him much harder to trick than Drakon who blindly grabs anything in sight.

I'm not quite buying Ollie's big equipment advantage either. He uses so many arrows, yet he hardly uses them consistently. For that reason I wouldn't sell this as a shoe in for him on the bases of equipment. We don't know how events will unfold or if he'll even use the arrows that'd specifically work against someone with Matt's weaknesses. For that reason i'd give a slight nod to daredevil in terms of the numbers running in his favor. Not that i'm siding with him here because I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

It's not a matter of Drakon's speed being compared to Daredevils, because GA being able to tag him is as circumstantial as it gets. Drakon's fast enough to run around Ollie in circles without so much as being perceived. Sadly Drakon has a fatal flaw in wanting to outdo his opposition, so he's happy standing in place catching arrows for days. Luckily for GA he used this to his advantage and and fired a trick arrow which Drakon in his carelessness happily obliged. For one Matt is less likely to catch a projectile, so no this isn't a clear cut Drakon > Matt = Ollie WILL tag him. Secondly Oliver had prep against Drakon IIRC and that was their second or even third encounter in the series. Furthermore (not sure how accurate this statement is) but wouldn't Matt's radar tip him off to an arrow with different properties than a regular arrow head? He perceives an empty canister of *insert trick substance* and he'll do his best to avoid it. Even more evidence that points to weariness to touch an arrow would be that their are archers within the MU that use trick arrows, so it's not like it's a threat he's oblivious to.

Honestly I think your posts are dishonest in the way you're selling both Oliver's abilities and arsenal. Just because you can go throughout some of his series and pick out instances where he's used a variety of trick arrows doesn't mean it will be his go to in this match. He doesn't really have trick arrows he uses off the bat consistently. The reverse of what you're doing would be if I exclusively cited Mike Grell's run on GA in order to prove he more or less never uses trick arrows. To add onto that while he has used trick arrows more or less in certain series (more so in the 2000's) he's always been more likely to bust out some regular arrowheads especially against a single, unknown combatant.

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#184 Posted by Warlockmage (9223 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

I would love to see you making an actual case instead of piggybacking on other people's hard work. Also:

lol why would i need to do that? i don't know Daredevil that well, and i gave credit where credit was due?

what is your problem with me saying @brucerogers and @ghostravage have more than convinced me that Daredevil wins this?

and whats your problem with me stating a blatant fact that Daredevil is quite far ahead of the polls?

is it because its not your favorite character and you are taking it personally? if so then really? i mean really mate? i have a certain amount of respect for you, please dont cause me to lose it.

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#185 Edited by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:

Most of the "Bullet timing" feats people use for Daredevil aren't actual bullet timing, and are in fact aim blocking with the help of his Radar Sense. The scans I showed are one of the few examples of Matt genuinely and irrefutably reacting to a bullet after it's fired.

Not even close actually. You can't ricochet a bullet, or anything for that matter, back by simply blocking it. You actually have swing and connect with the object mid-motion to change it's direction, watching a game of badminton or tennis tells you this much. This isn't Bucky blocking bullets in the Civil war movie, this is someone moving so fast that they are able to change the trajectory of a bullet in motion after it's been fired, whether it's redirecting it away from himself, or back at the attacker, Daredevil has done both. Calling what he does "aim blocking" is disingenuous and just goes against what aim blocking actually is. Hell, Daredevils very first bullet deflection feat had the shooter in the process of pulling the trigger by the time Daredevil noticed that a shot was about to be fired in Daredevil vol 1 issue 3. We can actually see that Daredevil swung his billy club in order to redirect the shot.

No Caption Provided

Now, lets move on to the first scan you posted. For reference (courtesy of @ghostravage) that scan comes from Daredevil vol 1 issue 335. Lets post the full instance to get the best picture:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

As we can see in the second scan, Daredevils radar was all messed up since he was in a sewer, and Daredevil was visibly having issues relying solely on his radar and even his other senses, he had no choice to but use pure focus in order to pull off the feat of deflecting the bullet. So, again, Daredevil is that fast and you can't attribute that feat to his radar.

Now, I can't find the issue your last scan (the one with a black suited Spider-Man) is from, so I won't touch that. An issue number would be appreciated though so we can have full context on that scan, considering your first scan had clear vital context to it that you probably missed or didn't know about, so it's possible that the other one could as well

I do appreciate you posting the scans from Daredevil: Man without Fear issue 5 though. Thanks for that

You can call it aim blocking all you want, but it's really not. Daredevil is fast enough to actually move his limbs to deflect bullets after they've been fired.

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#186 Edited by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage: Come on dude, be real here. You came here wanting DD to win (as you stated in page 2 before any real argument was made for either side). I'm not blaming you or anything and I apologize if my last response came out as over aggressive but I think that you and I both know you're not very objective in this battle. Again, not blaming you. But I would love to see people take the time and make the effort to provide actual reasoning like Bruce and Ghost do instead of just voting in the poll because polls are meaningless. It's like voting in a CaV without explaining your reasoning which as you know is generally unaccepted as a legitimate vote in Comic Vine. As a veteran user on CV, and one of the old-timers that I remember even since before my army service, and it should be said that what I recall of you is all positive, I expect you to understand that the polls are meaningless in a sense. Actual arguments I appreciate and respect even if I disagree with them. I have respect for you as well which is just why I am disappointed that you don't make an actual case yourself, which I would be happy to read and respond to, and instead you're jumping on other people's bandwagon.

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#187 Edited by Debelindzo (832 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate has been a roller coaster of emotions and i absolutely love it.

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#188 Posted by BruceRogers (17320 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: The sniper bullet deflection scan with black suited Spider-Man is from Amazing Spider-Man #287. The context is that Peter had just lost his Spider Sense thanks to some sort of special gas, which was why he was unable to react to the bullet by himself

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#189 Edited by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: oh so that's the sniper feat you mentioned. I'll keep that in mind. Just finished born again in my readings (frickin epic story)

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#190 Posted by BruceRogers (17320 posts) - - Show Bio
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#191 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I'll get to what you said later, but are you currently reading through Daredevil stuff?

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#192 Posted by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: yes, I'm not all caught up on his material but I'm making solid progress. I just finished the last of frank millers material

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#193 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio
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#194 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: And what did you think of it? Did you start with the Miller stuff?

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#195 Posted by Wyldsong (9750 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of good discussion going on here. Great BOTW it seems=)

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#196 Edited by Vertigo- (17735 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Currently I'm only reading through Daredevil, post-crisis Deathstroke & current Nightwing since I'm all caught up with my other characters. I've got plans to read through old man Logan down the road. As for my thoughts on Millers run, I enjoyed it. It was gritty, dark and had a good punch. I read a bit of Stan lees run and am still going back to it from time to time to play catch up, but from what I've read so far, Millers style just meshed more with the type of writing I like. I've heard Nocentis run is also good as well, she takes over Daredevil a few issues after Millers run.

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#197 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13282 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted Green Arrow just because.

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#198 Posted by lubub55 (12906 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted Green Arrow just because.

More people need to be like this.

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#199 Posted by jinn (339 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Daredevil because lubub55 has ruined any interest in Green Arrow.

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#200 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3716 posts) - - Show Bio

The arguments for Green Arrow are quite good (not that those for Daredevil are bad), mad props to "Lub" and "Red Viper". It's truly enjoyable watching those 3-4 guys debate.