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Posted by jashro44 (52416 posts) 1 year, 11 months ago

Poll: Battle of the week: Green Arrow vs Daredevil (169 votes)

Green Arrow 31%
Daredevil 62%
Too Close To Call 7%
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For this weeks battle of the week we have the Emerald Archer Green Arrow versus The Man Without Fear Daredevil! Who will win? You decide!

Rules

  • Green arrow gets post crisis, rebirth/new 52 feats
  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

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#101 Edited by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW DD wank? Is that what happens when someone doesn't like an argument? Buncha sofites in here.

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#102 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: Maybe you (or anyone else for that matter) should try posting an actual argument so we can decide if we like it or not.

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#103 Posted by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: Maybe you (or anyone else for that matter) should try posting an actual argument so we can decide if we like it or not.

I don't post long arguments unless it's a CAV. It waste's my time. I also said I'll post later this week. Also seeing as how in my original argument you completely misinterpreted it at first and I had to wait a couple more posts for you to actually address it, I think you can give me the luxury of time. It's only fair. Also I'm not sure why you're replying as my post wasn't to you but to two other people who "tend to side with characters more than others nearly all the time".

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#104 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: I know you were talking to them, it's just that I agree with them completely.

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#105 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt.

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#106 Posted by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: I know you were talking to them, it's just that I agree with them completely.

It's whatever then.

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#108 Posted by blackpantherisb (7126 posts) - - Show Bio

I will make a case for Daredevil soon.

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#109 Posted by _Logos_ (1907 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm thinking Matt because of his superior senses and the fact that he's still a very skilled combatant like Green Arrow.

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#110 Posted by cptstormsword (314 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil closes the distance and knocks him out.

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#111 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 Is the zone crowded with people or are they fighting in an unpopulated zone?

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#112 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

@jinn said:

I think somebody's mad that the general consensus is that Daredevil beats their favorite character...

lol true :D

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#113 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

The Argument

DISCLAIMER: For argument of the week purposes, i restrain myself from posting scans, however, citations will be provided for every claim. If scans are needed, just ask for them. Thank you.

I believe this is a good match for starters given the stipulations. Allowing Green Arrow to keep all his gear definitely balances the fight, specially allowing him to start at a considerably advantageous distance from Daredevil, however, these things are hardly game changers as far as the result of the fight goes and i knew beforehand the Green Arrow side was going to argue from a heavy gear-based point of view to prove Green Arrow superiority here, which is understandable considering he has by no means the same combat prowess Daredevil has in close combat.

Starting with gear, considering the fact Daredevil can literally picture the majority of someone's gear by smell as he proved back in Daredevil/Deadpool Annual 1997 when from across a room he not only noticed the fact a magnetic field was surrounding Deadpool like a hologram but the fact he noticed the smell of explosives, latex, plastic, gun oil between other things as well as a second time back in Deadpool vol.3 #11. There's nothing stopping Daredevil from noticing all the trick arrows on Green Arrow's quiver, specially those that involve explosives or other paraphernalia like glue or grease. Regarding the starting distance, this hardly poses as a game changer considering the battleground they're fighting on. The fact they are fighting in a city already gives Matt way too much cover to avoid being hit or affected by Green Arrows's projectiles and has the advantage when taking cover considering he can see Green Arrow at all times, even while completely covered, specially since he confirmed he can flawlessly spot a sniper 100 yards away, while inside a building just by hearing a soft click when he prepared to shoot as stated back in Daredevil vol.3 #5, whereas Green Arrow relies on his vision in order to know his opponent's position. This guarantees Daredevil the capability of creating diversions with his billy clubs Green Arrow won't be expecting any time soon.

By the same token, the use of sonic weaponry is highly unlikely, starting by the fact Green Arrow does not know Daredevil is weak to them and it is hardly a go to tactic to employ against people in a one versus one scenario. On top of that, Daredevil has proven to still retain enough consciousness with his other senses to keep fighting on, as he showcased when shooting a weapon that generated a massive ultrasonic outburst while fighting Hulk during Indestructible Hulk #10 and demonstrating he can still fight head on after being severely affected by it, likewise, he proved as much during Daredevil vol.1 #335 when 4 of his 5 senses, including his hearing, was nullified and he could still feel the air pressure of a bullet traveling through the air.

This fight will be determined in close quarter combat, given Daredevil wouldn't be hit nor affected by a single arrow, not only because his reflexes are beyond the ones needed to react to arrows, but the fact he can tell much more about Green Arrow from a distance, pretty much discerning his gear with his senses than Green Arrow can just by looking at him. This at the very least would grant Daredevil enough insight to opt for the best tactics to close the gap between then and engage him in close combat, in which Daredevil definitely holds the advantage.

Bottom line, Daredevil should win based on the information he will have very early in the match, the capability of closing the gap by approaching offensively with his billy clubs with an outstandingly complex ricochet ability, as Green Arrow has absolutely no counter for such an unpredictable and practical use of billy clubs and taking cover at the same time, his superior agility, perception and reflexes and his obvious superiority in combat as well, not to mention the use of pressure points which he has used on a sufficiently consistent basis to be applicable here.

The Debate

@lubub55:

Ollie carries things like sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows, glue arrows and cryonic arrows. People will try to bring up Matt's speed and agility to say he can easily dodge or deflect all the arrows, but with his AOE arrows like the first two dodging won't be possible, and with the last two deflecting the arrows will be a terrible idea. He has other things to end the fight quickly, like explosive and electrical arrows.

We know he carries trick arrows but that does not counter the fact most of them need to actually hit something in order to work and on top of it, most are active before Green Arrow even shoots them. Take for example your own scans, his gas arrow from his encounter with Deadshot in Deadshot vol.2 #3 would be rather useless against someone that literally see through solids like X-Ray vision, as he proved back in Daredevil vol.3 #10.1.

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Likewise, playing mouse and cat like he did to Deadshot won't be possible for someone who can literally spot you behind walls by the sound of your heartbeat or even your smell. Daredevil won't approach him without being cautious, even more so when he already knows he's packing trick arrows with him. Regardless, as i already mentioned, Daredevil being affected by sonics, specially Green Arrows is hardly a game changer as he has proved he's completely capable of retaining enough reflexes to deal with the noise, as showcased back in Indestructible Hulk #10 when he was still dodging a rampaging Hulk.

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Likewise, he managed to dodge an attack from Bushwhacker back in Daredevil vol.1 #335 after he was severely deafened, meaning in the very short amount of time Green Arrow has to do something if Daredevil (BIG IF) is attacked with sonics, Daredevil might as well keep dodging him with his other senses or move out of the way where the sonics don't affect him anymore.

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Then again, don't take this as if Green Arrow will actually use sonics right away, even less so Daredevil falling for this as he might as well hear the arrow activating prior to being shot or used against him considering he can hear people using Night Vision Goggles after they were activated from several floors underneath him back in Daredevil vol.3 #7.

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Either way, as noted before, most of Ollie's arrows are activated on contact, meaning the need to actually hit something in order to work. Glue arrows and Cryogenic arrows will hardly work on Matt, specially since he doesn't opt to catch the arrows but instead simply redirect them as he showcased against Stick back in Daredevil vol.1 #177 when he was shot from behind and Mat reacted through his radar sense and with a simple hand twitch redirected the arrow to the actual center of the bullseye mark. It is worth noting that Daredevil was recently regaining his powers again and was simply training with Stick in order to do so.

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Now i want you to pay close attention to the your scan involving the gas pellet arrows, the fact Daredevil can notice something like tear gas from over half a city block away from him as he stated back in Daredevil vol.3 #31 means he will notice this before it even gets near him, specially considering the arrow apparently goes releasing the gas as soon as it is shot, as your scan implies.

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Not only that, but Daredevil has also been completely capable of actually noticing the lack of oxygen before a big combusting detonation takes place as showcased back in Daredevil vol.1 #328, which means he's more than capable of noticing gas in the air way before it actually does something to him.

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Needless to say, Daredevil has been using nostril filters since his first fight with the Purple Man back in Daredevil vol.1 #89 and managed to be completely impervious to its effects, meaning most type of gasses, going from sleeping gas, hallucination gas, numbing gas, to simple smoke pellets will hardly affect Daredevil, unless Green Arrow has gas that is absorbed through the skin, which i haven't seen any evidence of.

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For the icing on the cake, Daredevil has flat out shrugged off tear gas shot directly in his face with no apparent success in even bothering him back in Daredevil vol.1 #248, ultimately beating the crap out of the robot who attempt to do such thing in the first place.

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Anyways, the most important thing that needs to be taken into account is the fact most of the arrows Green Arrow uses are activated on contact, meaning the point of the arrow must make contact with something and considering the fact Daredevil has demonstrated he's completely capable of either redirecting them by hitting them at the stick without barely affecting their travel speed or easily dodge projectiles as slow as those arrows, i find it extremely unlikely for them to be of any use here.

Moreover, Ollie has tagged Constantine Drakon before by shooting tactically, when Drakon is faster than Matt. (I can expand on this.) He fires at Drakon's feet where the arrow can't be intercepted after using a trick arrow on him. The specific trick arrow he used there in that way would be irrelevant against a blind man, but either Matt fakes it or Ollie realises he's blind, and if the latter happens then Ollie is going to whip out the sonic arrows. As a replacement for a glue arrow, Ollie has actually done this same trick against Red Hood by using the environment to his advantage in a location which didn't favour him.

He didn't tag him... He flat out outsmarted him by taking advantage of Drakon's own speed. He knew he was going to be completely capable of either dodging or grabbing the arrow but he saw past that and expected him to actually grab the arrow in the first place, ending in Drakon taking the arrow head on and yet again, Green Arrow plays mouse and cat with Drakon, who by no means can't see him doing anything behind walls nor preparing, Daredevil could and will see him at all times. Needless to say, Daredevil isn't new to fights involving archers with trick arrows whereas Green Arrow is flat out a first-timer fighting someone like Daredevil so for the sake of the argument, if the time comes, Daredevil can easily fake what's needed in order to keep his identity and schticks concealed, as he proved back in Daredevil vol.1 #99.

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Counter-Argument

Now, i want to see what's the actual argument to counter Daredevil taking cover and quickly moving between obstacles while creating pressure with his billy clubs, like he does most of the time. The fact Daredevil can make incredibly complex and nigh-unavoidable billy club throws means Green Arrow will be hard pressed and won't have the chance to make a decent shot at all, specially since he will lose Daredevil out of sight in order to dodge the throw in the first place... Take for example Daredevil vol.3 Annual #1 where Daredevil's throws his billy club in such a complex way it actually managed to overpower a master martial artist which was going toe to toe with Daredevil before this and his precognition as well...

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Furthermore, it's actually in-character for him to use both this throws with his fighting skills as well which is going to be decisive in this match considering that's the way he will shorten the distance gap between Ollie and him successfully, like he did during Daredevil: Yellow #2 when he broke into a gang's hiding place and KO'd everyone with the combination of billy club throws and skill...

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I haven't seen anything on Green Arrow to suggest he can perform on this level of pressure whereas this is just a walk in the park for Daredevil. Moreover, in this particular scenario, having a weapon that takes both of your arms to use is rather unpractical.

======================================================================================================

@allstarsuperman :

Daredevil is not well suited for fighting gadget spammers. Yes he has great speed and agility, but attacks with a large area of effect are his down fall. He doesn't wear armor of any kind, explosives and electrical attacks will knock him through a loop. As good as Matts senses are, they have been used against him in the past, if you read Daredevil comics you'd know this. He's susceptible to loud noises or other interfere. An explosion or flash bang is seriously gonna stun him, and tear gas or sonics should have even more effect on him than it would on an ordinary man. Matt cant even fall back on stealth for this match, as Ollie has mapping arrows, along with great senses himself.

According to who exactly? He's been fighting people with tons of gadgets since the 70's. Again, according to what? What are these area of effect attacks that cover a zone so large he can't dodge them, i haven't seen anything on Green Arrow besides explosive arrows and cryogenic arrows, which Daredevil will see coming before he even shoots them, that create an understandably large area of effect. Regardless, you're flat out making stuff up now, considering Daredevil's gloves and boots have been insulated since the 60's, specifically mentioned back in Daredevil vol.1 #7 while he was fighting Namor.

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And yet again, why is an electric arrow affecting him if he can simply dodge it? I fail to see something that must make contact to begin with being such an important part on Green Arrow's case, specially since Daredevil has dodged and deflected things infinitely faster with minor effort, let alone arrows. Anyways, you're now mentioning what has already been addressed, i'll wait for the reply.

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#114 Posted by Vertigo- (17727 posts) - - Show Bio
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#115 Posted by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

Moreover, Ollie has tagged Constantine Drakon before by shooting tactically, when Drakon is faster than Matt. (I can expand on this.) He fires at Drakon's feet where the arrow can't be intercepted after using a trick arrow on him. The specific trick arrow he used there in that way would be irrelevant against a blind man, but either Matt fakes it or Ollie realises he's blind, and if the latter happens then Ollie is going to whip out the sonic arrows. As a replacement for a glue arrow, Ollie has actually done this same trick against Red Hood by using the environment to his advantage in a location which didn't favour him.

To be fair Drakon has some fatal flaws in his character that lead to Ollie being able to tag him. For one he's over confident, and secondly he leans more on the side of catching arrows rather than dodging them which would make him much harder to trick than Drakon who blindly grabs anything in sight.

I'm not quite buying Ollie's big equipment advantage either. He uses so many arrows, yet he hardly uses them consistently. For that reason I wouldn't sell this as a shoe in for him on the bases of equipment. We don't know how events will unfold or if he'll even use the arrows that'd specifically work against someone with Matt's weaknesses. For that reason i'd give a slight nod to daredevil in terms of the numbers running in his favor. Not that i'm siding with him here because I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

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#116 Posted by jashro44 (52416 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 Is the zone crowded with people or are they fighting in an unpopulated zone?

Unpopulated.

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#117 Edited by mrmonster (15158 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil

Online
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#118 Posted by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil is not well suited for fighting gadget spammers. Yes he has great speed and agility, but attacks with a large area of effect are his down fall. He doesn't wear armor of any kind, explosives and electrical attacks will knock him through a loop. As good as Matts senses are, they have been used against him in the past, if you read Daredevil comics you'd know this. He's susceptible to loud noises or other interfere. An explosion or flash bang is seriously gonna stun him, and tear gas or sonics should have even more effect on him than it would on an ordinary man. Matt cant even fall back on stealth for this match, as Ollie has mapping arrows, along with great senses himself.

Green Arrow takes a solid 7 or 8 out of 10.

If you read Green Arrow comics you'd know that Daredevil should have a healthy head start on Ollie because he's going to try and use regular means before resorting to more creative equipment, which could prove to be deadly. Not that it outright will be, but if you think it's just going to be glue, electrical attacks and sonics from the jump you are sadly mistaken. More often than not you won't catch GA spamming trick arrows like you're portraying. Unless of course you've only been exposed to his 1983 mini-series.

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#119 Posted by Hypnozzz (40 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

Week ago I'd be willing to say that Matt take it but feats against Constantine Dakon combined with trick arrows are really convincing. Can't wait for Daredevil experts.

Except Drakon typically stomps the Arrow family even if they fight him 2v1 (Mia and Connor). Ollie's lone showing of getting the better of him was circumstantial and plays a lot off of Drakon's willingness to put himself in harms way by catching arrows for show rather than avoiding them. I'd say it's sort of a lack of context that makes Drakon appear to be a good analogy when he's really not.

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#120 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Because neither Danny nor Steve have the means to shoot the clubs out in mid-air. Ollie does and he has reacted to arrows, which move far faster than Matt's clubs.

Sure, I was referring more in terms of a trick shot though. Ollie will not see that one coming.

The thing is that Ollie just aims to the floor or something with these arrows. Matt won't know that they are trick arrows, so he thinks he's safe when they hit the floor harmlessly beside/in front of him, but then all of a sudden - BOOM. Explosive arrow goes off, tear gas starts spreading and suffocating him, an electric field zaps him, etc. He might be able to counter one or two specific arrows like the net arrow but Oliver has tons of different arrows which he always carries around in-character and he can fire them blindingly fast.

Matt has fought against and besides Hawkeye, so he would have some idea on trick arrows. Matt for one, isn't going to just stand there when Ollie starts shooting, so the idea of him standing in one place is out of the question. Most importantly, if Matt is actually just standing there doing nothing, Ollie has no reason to use an explosive arrow just like that. He is more likely to use if he sees what a threat Matt is.

Tear gas would not hinder DD that much but he still needs to get him within range. The same for the electric field arrow.

Except Ollie can spot him if he tries to use stealth:

What notable feats of stealth does Anarky have though?. Matt can do this.

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In the first scan, he escapes the FBI when they have cameras aimed at him and in the second one, he basically sits in a room full of people without anyone noticing him until he wanted them too.

And his agility won't save him from explosives, gas, sonic and many other trick arrows that Ollie can use.

Already addressed this.

The billy club can easily be shot down.

Not when he is too busy trying to bfr himself with the grapple arrow

Flashbangs are meant to stun, both by blinding and by deafening. It's gonna affect Mat for sure, especially since he wouldn't know to expect it to be a trick arrow in the first place.

Well he certainly wasn't in any sort of discomfort when Hawkeye used on him, so I think they have negligible effect on him, if at all.

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#121 Edited by ganon15 (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

Netflix made me a fan of Daredevil, JLU made me a fan of Green Arrow....

On-topic: Matt

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#122 Posted by Warlockmage (9211 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage: Ravage posted mate.

thank you for tagging me... i love reading when he posts about Daredevil, it helps remind everyone hes not just "a hulk guy"

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#123 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

And it's rather sad to see people coming to this thread with their salt from previous threads and complaining about wanking or whatever. But eh, given the kind of people who are doing it, I don't expect more.

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#124 Posted by Vertigo- (17727 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage: No problem. Reading his old CaV repping Daredevil is what got me interested in Murdock in the first place.

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#125 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:I've provided some arrow timing feats to go along with that. The point is that Ollie can tag people who are easily fast enough to react to arrows normally.

Bullet timing >>>arrow timing. Ollie can tag people who can react to arrows, while Matt beats people who react to bullets effortlessly and he himself has done so.

The city setting favours Ollie much more than it does Matt. With the building he can make it to the top of, more room to fire arrows and less cover.

You are kidding right?. Matt's radar sense will give him a complete view of his environment, along with places for cover, stealth, and he will know the place better than Ollie in a matter of minutes. He can also climb, jump around and scale buildings better and faster too.

How in the world does Ollie have an advantage here?.

He doesn't have to, but he will if Matt doesn't fake being blinded by things like the glue arrow. He could also pull a Hawkeye and use a magnesium arrow.

You are conflating two different fights with completely different contexts. When he fought Hawkeye, he wasn't trying to really hurt him and it was just competitive fighting, not to mention that he had his identity to protect and didn't want to seem unaffected by the flashbang arrow.

None of that is going to be at play here and he isn't going to stand there like a moron and overact about his eyes getting burned. He will be dodging or parrying them without breaking stride.

He didn't start with it. I'm saying that claiming Oliver won't use a sonic arrow if he doesn't know his opponent is blind is a moot point, because he's already used it on opponents with sight.

The question is, will he get to use it before he gets beaten silly.

There's a starting distance of 100 foot, and Ollie has pretty insane firing speed.

I agree, but I already showed you how Matt can close the distance that fast and the fact that marksman with insane firing speed is something he is extremely used to fighting by now.

Ollie doesn't have to manually climb. He activates the grapple and gets pulled to the top automatically. The force of a billy club throw isn't going to be enough to make him let go either, seeing as how he's tanked hits from Solomon Grundy and a bloodlusted Deathstroke.

Grundy is inconsistent in strength and Deathstroke was wailing on him when Ollie put an Arrow in his eye and he was mostly likely not even punching properly due to blind rage. Also, he never tanked those hits. He was quite helpless until the rest of his team members recovered and dog pilled him.

And Daredevil can throw it hard enough to embed it in solid concrete, so it is not something he will just be shrugging off. And what will Ollie do when the Billy club hits a nerve cluster and just shuts him down?

Green Arrow carries mapping arrows to detect people doing stealth. This tactic won't work.

But he still needs to manually fire the arrows to those areas first right?. You honestly believe he is going to have every nook and cranny filled with mapping arrows, in a random encounter, while in the middle of the fight?. That's a huge stretch.

But they have insane reaction time anyway, so the end result is the same. They aren't exactly the same as Daredevil, but if you dismiss this based on that, then we also have to disregard Daredevil tagging people with his billy clubs because those people aren't exactly the same as Green Arrow.

It's not just insane reaction time. It's that coupled with his incredible agility and speed which makes Daredevil so good at dodging. And your second example is flawed since he has tagged people with far better reaction time than Ollie anyways. I mean let me know when he can dodge bullets because he can see them faster or catch bullets without looking.

Jumping over an arrow after it's been fired is much harder than it sounds. As far as I'm aware, Matt has no feats of doing this.

So reacting to bullets after they are fired and effortlessly jumping over 14 feet in the air is not enough evidence that he can jump over a freaking arrow?. Come on now.

But anyhoo, here are some feats of his leaping ability

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Now obviously there is much more where that came from, but the first two showcase his ability launch himself in the air and how effortlessly he can do.

The last scan is of him leaping over AND catching an arrow after it was fired, just in case there is any doubt if he can do that when he has done the same against bullets.

Ollie is a surprisingly good tactician. He'll do things like electrocute the ground, blow up cars, set traps and things like that to keep his opponent at a distance. Matt doesn't have a counter to things like AOE electrical arrows and sleeping gas arrows.

Sure thing, but Matt has fought better tacticians.

If Matt doesn't fake being blinded, then Ollie will just sonic arrows like he has up close before. He needs to do it for more than just his secret identity. It's not like Ollie will be one-shotted.

Why would he just fake anything when he can just dodge or deflect arrows?. And won't he also be affected by the sonic arrow if he uses them in close quarters?.

I never said he will one shot Ollie, but once he starts beating him up, there is nothing much he will be able to do.

I'm just pointing out that Ollie uses arrows for more than just range. They're a part of his fighting style, and he's good at improvising.

Okay fine. But that doesn't really change the outcome.

Ollie is completely different to Bullseye. He does this whilst creating more distance, rather than as a distraction up close.

I will humour you. Let's say he keeps making distance. So what will he do once he inevitably runs out of arrows?

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#126 Posted by cptstormsword (314 posts) - - Show Bio

People arguing for Ollie aren't putting convincing arguments together.

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#127 Posted by foxerdes (10156 posts) - - Show Bio
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#128 Edited by Gotoucanario (2958 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt would win most of the time in a random encounter for sure.

WIth knowledge GA would stand a good chance, otherwise he's not tagging Matt.

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#129 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Sure, I was referring more in terms of a trick shot though. Ollie will not see that one coming.

He can shoot the club as soon as it leaves Matt's hand, before it can ricochet off anything. By the way, Ollie can use trick shots too:

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And since you said that the guy that Matt caught off-guard actually had better senses and reaction speed than Matt himself, then Oliver's trick-shot could tag Matt too. But I won't take it too far because I don't think Ollie will try and trick-shot Matt.

Matt has fought against and besides Hawkeye, so he would have some idea on trick arrows.

Clint's arsenal of trick arrows aren't really as vast as Oliver's, nor does he use them as frequently. It's Green Arrow's trademark, his whole character and fighting style is built around his trick arrows.

Matt for one, isn't going to just stand there when Ollie starts shooting, so the idea of him standing in one place is out of the question. Most importantly, if Matt is actually just standing there doing nothing, Ollie has no reason to use an explosive arrow just like that. He is more likely to use if he sees what a threat Matt is.

I was never suggesting that Daredevil will just stand there. I'm also well aware that he can dodge Green Arrow's shots, if he were to aim directly at him, but what I'm saying is that Ollie will use trick arrows that he will aim around Matt, with an area of effect that Matt can't outrace. For example, Matt runs at Ollie or jumps behind a car or something, Ollie shoots an explosive arrow that hits the ground beside Matt, the explosion goes off, Matt is knocked out. I will re-post some of the scans I posted in the beginning:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

As you can see, in all of the above Green Arrow doesn't try to tag his enemies, but rather hits the ground or the walls beside them with an AOE arrow. With the glue arrow, even if Matt can dodge it, it goes off before it makes contact so it will still affect him, at least to some degree.

What notable feats of stealth does Anarky have though?. Matt can do this.

I don't know, but that isn't important. He was hiding from Oliver, above and behind him, not making any noise, and Oliver still spotted his exact location. Here's another example:

No Caption Provided

Here he spots a hidden man that neither Lady Shiva nor the Question knew was there.

The point is, that if Matt suddenly disappears from sight, Ollie can know when he's getting closer. Especially since they're the only two people in this city. Also, like Lubub mentioned earlier, he also has mapping arrows that can give him knowledge on everything in his environment. Also, when Daredevil's hiding, he can use the chance to use a zipline arrow to get to higher ground which will give him a good vantage point, and also make it very hard for Daredevil to get to him later on.

In the first scan, he escapes the FBI when they have cameras aimed at him and in the second one, he basically sits in a room full of people without anyone noticing him until he wanted them too.

The first scan is like the old "ring the doorbell and run away" trick, lol. The feds knew he was coming. He knocked on the door, and ran off, and when they opened it he was already gone. He didn't really sneak up on anybody there.

In the second one he's sneaking up on normal people who I assume have no feats of awareness like Oliver does. It also looks like they were too busy talking with each other to notice he was there. Besides, he was wearing normal clothes and looking like a normal man so there was no reason for anyone to pay him any attention.

Already addressed this.

Must have missed it then. Can he outrace an explosion or an electric field or anything of the sort?

Not when he is too busy trying to bfr himself with the grapple arrow

Unless he manually triggers a trick arrow before he uses the zipline to provide a distraction. Like he used the sonic arrow against Deadshot.

Well he certainly wasn't in any sort of discomfort when Hawkeye used on him, so I think they have negligible effect on him, if at all.

Well it's possible that Hawkeye's arrows are just inferior/different from Green Arrow's. Either that, or the writer doesn't really know how flashbangs work.

@ghostravage You made some excellent points. But there are a few things I want to address:

Starting with gear, considering the fact Daredevil can literally picture the majority of someone's gear by smell as he proved back in Daredevil/Deadpool Annual 1997 when from across a room he not only noticed the fact a magnetic field was surrounding Deadpool like a hologram but the fact he noticed the smell of explosives, latex, plastic, gun oil between other things as well as a second time back in Deadpool vol.3 #11.

That's a nice one (can I get the scan by the way?) but here it's different. For starters, they're out in the open - not in a room, plus they start pretty far off from each other, so smells would be harder to notice. Secondly, even if he smells an explosive coming his way, it's not like he can outrace it. Matt's senses and reaction speed are absolutely good enough to avoid being directly tagged by Green Arrow, but that's not what Ollie will be going for in the first place. He will aim the arrow so it lands beside Matt, in front of him, on a wall he hides behind, etc, and Matt can't outrace that. Arrows go at around 300-400 FPS, Matt can't outrace an arrow from 100 feet away or less. And finally, there are arrows that Matt won't be able to smell, like the electric arrow for example, or the cryonic arrow, and of course the sonic arrow.

This fight will be determined in close quarter combat, given Daredevil wouldn't be hit nor affected by a single arrow, not only because his reflexes are beyond the ones needed to react to arrows, but the fact he can tell much more about Green Arrow from a distance, pretty much discerning his gear with his senses than Green Arrow can just by looking at him. This at the very least would grant Daredevil enough insight to opt for the best tactics to close the gap between then and engage him in close combat, in which Daredevil definitely holds the advantage.

No, I think that it won't be determined in close quarters. Oliver is simply too versatile to allow Matt the option to close the distance so easily. Matt can dodge arrows alright, but he can't outrace explosions or electric fields, or avoid being knocked out by a knockout-gas arrow that only needs to fly beside him for a split second to take effect.

Even if Matt does close the distance, it's not like he will one-shot Ollie, and Ollie will quickly realize that he can't win here the old fashioned way, so he will manually trigger a trick arrow to gain some respite and create more distance. If he triggers the sonic arrow, like he did against Deadshot when the latter tried to go for a hand-to-hand fight against Ollie, then it's game over.

We know he carries trick arrows but that does not counter the fact most of them need to actually hit something in order to work and on top of it, most are active before Green Arrow even shoots them. Take for example your own scans, his gas arrow from his encounter with Deadshot in Deadshot vol.2 #3 would be rather useless against someone that literally see through solids like X-Ray vision, as he proved back in Daredevil vol.3 #10.1.

Yeah and there's nothing stopping Ollie from hitting the floor or the walls beside Daredevil. Also, Ollie can manually detonate the gas arrows whenever he chooses:

No Caption Provided

Either way, as noted before, most of Ollie's arrows are activated on contact, meaning the need to actually hit something in order to work. Glue arrows and Cryogenic arrows will hardly work on Matt, specially since he doesn't opt to catch the arrows but instead simply redirect them as he showcased against Stick back in Daredevil vol.1 #177 when he was shot from behind and Mat reacted through his radar sense and with a simple hand twitch redirected the arrow to the actual center of the bullseye mark. It is worth noting that Daredevil was recently regaining his powers again and was simply training with Stick in order to do so.

Matt doesn't have to catch the glue or cryonic arrows to trigger them:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I also added one of the electric arrow.

Needless to say, Daredevil has been using nostril filters since his first fight with the Purple Man back in Daredevil vol.1 #89 and managed to be completely impervious to its effects, meaning most type of gasses, going from sleeping gas, hallucination gas, numbing gas, to simple smoke pellets will hardly affect Daredevil, unless Green Arrow has gas that is absorbed through the skin, which i haven't seen any evidence of.

Well, I doubt that's really standard gear. Even in your next scan, which came chronologically after the one where he uses the filters, he is shown to be affected by tear gas.

For the icing on the cake, Daredevil has flat out shrugged off tear gas shot directly in his face with no apparent success in even bothering him back in Daredevil vol.1 #248, ultimately beating the crap out of the robot who attempt to do such thing in the first place.

That's just a writer who knows nothing on tear gas. Tear gas doesn't only blind you like pepper spray, which is obviously useless against an already blind opponent. It suffocates you, and yes it is also absorbed through the skin and creates a burning sensation to go with the suffocation. It will most certainly have an effect on Daredevil.

Now, i want to see what's the actual argument to counter Daredevil taking cover and quickly moving between obstacles while creating pressure with his billy clubs, like he does most of the time. The fact Daredevil can make incredibly complex and nigh-unavoidable billy club throws means Green Arrow will be hard pressed and won't have the chance to make a decent shot at all, specially since he will lose Daredevil out of sight in order to dodge the throw in the first place... Take for example Daredevil vol.3 Annual #1 where Daredevil's throws his billy club in such a complex way it actually managed to overpower a master martial artist which was going toe to toe with Daredevil before this and his precognition as well...

As I said, Oliver's arrows can affect Daredevil even if he knows they're coming. Explosives, electrics and gas are just a few examples. Regarding the billy clubs, Ollie can shoot them out of the air, and seeing as he's an expert on ricochets himself, he can see if that's what Matt is going for.

Also, what obstacles are you talking about, cars? Because that's the only cover I can think of here. That would actually be very counter productive for Matt:

No Caption Provided

In conclusion:

Matt will try and parkour his way toward Oliver, while throwing his clubs to create pressure. Ollie is more than capable of shooting Matt's clubs out of the air, essentially disarming him. He will also not try and aim directly at Matt, but shoot AOE arrows at the ground and the walls around him, as well as any cars he might want to use for cover. Matt might be aware that he has an explosive coming his way but that will hardly help him, since he can't outrace its area of effect. Green Arrow has a plethora of options here: he can use explosives to knock Daredevil out, use gas to knock him out or suffocate him, use electric arrows to electrocute him and knock him out, use glue or cryonic arrows to incapacitate him by sticking/freezing him in place, or a sonic arrow to incapacitate him. Even if the sonic arrow will only momentarily disorient Matt, it's all that Oliver really needs, seeing as he can fire arrows at blinding speeds. Oliver can fire multiple arrows at once and he often does it in-character, which will make it even harder for Matt to avoid them. If one volley of arrows will not work, Green Arrow's rate of fire is good enough to sent another, different volley fast enough to have an effect on Daredevil. Even if somehow Matt closes the gap, which is in itself very unlikely, Green Arrow won't be defeated that fast, he will realize that going for a hand-to-hand fight will not be a good idea, so he will manually trigger a trick arrow to create a distraction, and use this moment's respite to create distance between them once more.

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#130 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to re-join this discussion soon.

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#131 Edited by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:He can shoot the club as soon as it leaves Matt's hand, before it can ricochet off anything. By the way, Ollie can use trick shots too:

Agreed. But that does not mean he is completely immune to getting tagged by it when in the middle of a melee battle.

And since you said that the guy that Matt caught off-guard actually had better senses and reaction speed than Matt himself, then Oliver's trick-shot could tag Matt too. But I won't take it too far because I don't think Ollie will try and trick-shot Matt.

I never said he had better reaction speed than Matt. I said he had better senses. Either way he was tagged because the trick shot was too unpredictable for him. Given the fact that Matt himself is a master of these, he is not going to be caught off guard with a ricocheting trick shot.

Clint's arsenal of trick arrows aren't really as vast as Oliver's, nor does he use them as frequently. It's Green Arrow's trademark, his whole character and fighting style is built around his trick arrows.

That's besides the point. Daredevil still knows Hawkeye and has a basic idea on what trick arrows are, so it is fair to say that he will expect them on some level.

Either way, he is not going to charge at him without thinking and will still think to use cover first.

I was never suggesting that Daredevil will just stand there. I'm also well aware that he can dodge Green Arrow's shots, if he were to aim directly at him, but what I'm saying is that Ollie will use trick arrows that he will aim around Matt, with an area of effect that Matt can't outrace. For example, Matt runs at Ollie or jumps behind a car or something, Ollie shoots an explosive arrow that hits the ground beside Matt, the explosion goes off, Matt is knocked out. I will re-post some of the scans I posted in the beginning:

Matt has fought through explosions before:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The first two scans are from Daredevil vol 1 #168 and the other three from Daredevil vol 2 #26.

As you can see, this not only counts as a kinda durability feat for him but also shows his pain tolerance to what is supposed to be his weakness. So he isn't going down with one explosive arrow at all, even if it connects.

As you can see, in all of the above Green Arrow doesn't try to tag his enemies, but rather hits the ground or the walls beside them with an AOE arrow. With the glue arrow, even if Matt can dodge it, it goes off before it makes contact so it will still affect him, at least to some degree.

This is provided he manages to corner him to a wall in the first place. It's not like he is going to put him on the defensive throughout the whole fight.

I don't know, but that isn't important. He was hiding from Oliver, above and behind him, not making any noise, and Oliver still spotted his exact location. Here's another example:

Well both Shiva and Question were already too busy fighting and were pretty distracted. But still a good feat for Ollie, admittedly.

The point is, that if Matt suddenly disappears from sight, Ollie can know when he's getting closer. Especially since they're the only two people in this city. Also, like Lubub mentioned earlier, he also has mapping arrows that can give him knowledge on everything in his environment. Also, when Daredevil's hiding, he can use the chance to use a zipline arrow to get to higher ground which will give him a good vantage point, and also make it very hard for Daredevil to get to him later on.

This is an extremely questionable strategy given the fact that he still needs to plant those arrows in said places in order to map them. How do you suppose he is going to do it in a random encounter and no prep beforehand?.

Escaping Matt is easier said than done given his superior speed and agility. All Matt needs to do is throw his club at a nerve cluster and Ollie could lose his balance and maybe even fall.

The first scan is like the old "ring the doorbell and run away" trick, lol. The feds knew he was coming. He knocked on the door, and ran off, and when they opened it he was already gone. He didn't really sneak up on anybody there.

What?. He did escape video surveillance.

In the second one he's sneaking up on normal people who I assume have no feats of awareness like Oliver does. It also looks like they were too busy talking with each other to notice he was there. Besides, he was wearing normal clothes and looking like a normal man so there was no reason for anyone to pay him any attention.

No, but in a group therapy session where everyone is bound to start looking around due to boredom or nervousness. They don't need peak human level awareness for that when they have a working set of eyes or ears.

Plus he didn't hide in plain sight by dressing up as a normal man, he was completely invisible to them. Also, if he was doing it the way you mentioned, someone was bound to notice or ask him questions.

Must have missed it then. Can he outrace an explosion or an electric field or anything of the sort?

He can fight through explosions if necessary and his suit his insulated against electric shocks at least at some level, as ghostravage pointed out. Plus he has taken attacks from classic Electro and tanked some powerful Wakandian electric weaponry in Waid's run and was up and fighting in less than an instance. Here are the scans.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Unless he manually triggers a trick arrow before he uses the zipline to provide a distraction. Like he used the sonic arrow against Deadshot.

That is assuming the trick arrow would even work on him in close quarters in the first place. I mean, once Matt is in close range, how many trick arrows can he use without risking damage to himself?

Well it's possible that Hawkeye's arrows are just inferior/different from Green Arrow's. Either that, or the writer doesn't really know how flashbangs work.

This is just your assumption. You assume the flashbang arrow is inferior to GA's or can cause damage to the ears, you need to prove it.

And before I address your conclusion, could you list all of Ollie's trick arrows he uses as part of standard gear?. It would be appreciated, thanks

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#132 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

These arguments hinged way too much on assuming Green Arrow won't use trick arrows. I'm glad Ghost_Ravage is at least acknowledging what DD will do if GA uses trick arrows, instead of making an argument that GA needs to open up with trick arrows, or he has no chance. Oliver isn't that pathetic of a combatant that he needs to put DD down instantly to win. He can hold off a close quarters fight at least temporarily before retreating. He doesn't have to engage in close quarters, specially if DD is using superhuman abilities in avoiding his arrows to close the distance. Oliver probably won't wait around for a guy like that to get close to him.

As of now, I definitely think Green Arrow wins. Between AOE trick arrows and grappling to get on top of buildings, this fight would be more difficult for Matt then it would for Oliver IMO, who needs to either fight in close range, or throw a billy club. And I don't think DD is winning a ranged contest against Green Arrow. It's possible, but not likely IMO.

GR's at least showed me some believable scenarios where Matt should win while taking into consideration Oliver's advantages and not dismissing them, but I do think Oliver takes a 6-8/10 majority with the distance and setting.

Other settings, like fighting inside of a building, or another non-open environment, I would give DD a 7-9/10 majority.

I won't vote yet though. I'll wait until later in the week.

You need to EARN my vote. I do accept bribes.

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#133 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Vote Green Arrow, and I will take a dive in a CaV with you!

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#134 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: If you don't mind, could you tell me where people are arguing that Ollie will not use trick arrows?. In fact, trick arrows seem to be the highlight of his arguments overall.

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#135 Posted by Warlockmage (9211 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks:

Oliver isn't that pathetic of a combatant that he needs to put DD down instantly to win. He can hold off a close quarters fight at least temporarily before retreating. He doesn't have to engage in close quarters, specially if DD is using superhuman abilities in avoiding his arrows to close the distance. Oliver probably won't wait around for a guy like that to get close to him.

he actually can't. Daredevil is famous for opening up with pressure point attacks that will be utilized effectively, especially against a lesser skilled combatant like Oliver. im sorry but, if this does get to close quarters, that is immediately when Oliver loses.

Daredevil has equal, if not superior, skill to Captain America. what you said is essentially equal to "Oliver could hold off Batman who was morals off" like its ok to make that claim but you really need to back it up with skill feats. I don't think Oliver has them

Between AOE trick arrows and grappling to get on top of buildings, this fight would be more difficult for Matt then it would for Oliver IMO, who needs to either fight in close range, or throw a billy club. And I don't think DD is winning a ranged contest against Green Arrow. It's possible, but not likely IMO.

Daredevil was able to cross 2 blocks in a few seconds, how many trick arrows do you think Oliver is gonna get to fire off? not that many sorry he wont. against someone who regularly and actively dodges things from Bullseye, who is every bit Olivers superior in every way specifically the accuracy department, really? i don't believe it at all

and once again you assume Oliver will use Trick Arrows right off the bat. which is hardly consistent for a morals on Oliver. I mean you think Oliver is gonna just start opening off with lethal explosive arrows? because Oliver is a cold blooded killer right?

GR's at least showed me some believable scenarios where Matt should win while taking into consideration Oliver's advantages and not dismissing them, but I do think Oliver takes a 6-8/10 majority with the distance and setting.

yeah the starting distance heavily favors Oliver, but hes against someone who can cover 2 blocks in seconds. (@brucerogers with the scan of covering 2 blocks)

You need to EARN my vote. I do accept bribes.

you sound like you've already made up your mind

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#136 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers said:

@tparks: If you don't mind, could you tell me where people are arguing that Ollie will not use trick arrows?. In fact, trick arrows seem to be the highlight of his arguments overall.

Post 15

For starters, Ollie has no clue that he is fighting a blind guy with enhanced senses, thus he is not likely to open with his sonic arrow when he can just start off with normal ones. Hell, one can even argue that he may not even get a chance to use his trick arrows before Matt closes the distance and beats him down. More on that in a moment.

Post 17

@danieldaripper said:

Doesn't GA have arrows that use people's senses against them like, sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows etc.

Sure. But he doesn't know anything about Matt or his weakness sooo...

Post 23

He does not spam trick arrows or more specifically, sonic arrows, in character. He is much more likely to open with the regular ones first. Matt can close the distance before he decides to use them.

Post 24

I mean how many sonic arrows does Ollie normally carry? All jokes about unlimited arrows in fiction aside, its not like he has a massive amount to utilize in a random encounter.

Post 33

But did he open with a sonic arrow though?. Regardless, Ollie already knows how dangerous Deadshot is with his guns so he was probably not taking any chances. Now I am not saying he will underestimate Matt or anything, but he is far more likely to open up with sonic arrows against the world's deadliest marksman with long and faster weaponry as compared to a guy dressed as a devil, with no apparent long range weaponry and someone he knows nothing about.

Post 43

He'd auto win with a Sonic arrow but wouldn't know he needs it, a Explosive Arrow could do the trick but Ollie won't just outright kill him and refuse to use that force, and before Ollie realizes he needs to try being a bit more aggressive Matt is already in his face with superior h2h skills and pressure points.

Post 54

So for all I'm reading about what Ollie has going for him is Trick Arrows. That's about it. Now seeing as he's in character, correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt he'll start out shooting explosive arrows. Also seeing as DD is more a less a casual Bullet timer I don't see how he wouldn't react to his arrows before he even draws them.

Post 63

I'm saying that because of random encounter and Morals he won't START OUT shooting explosive arrows at Matt.

I'm not going to say every one of these comments are without merit, I would just rather see more comments acknowledging how DareDevil would deal with trick arrows, and not why Green Arrow will not use them. And you did provide some good reasoning in your posts for that as well, which was not unnoticed. I just personally think the range and Green Arrow's instant mobility with his grappling hook, are enough to hold a distance for most of the battle, and I think DareDevil will have a lot harder time closing the distance, since it should be a lot tougher for DareDevil then most situations. Green Arrow should be able to, at the very least, make it difficult for Matt to advance. Even if he isn't hitting Matt, you have to admit that Matt would at least need to seek cover from time to time while advancing. I think this gives Green Arrow time to retreat or use his grappling hook. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that Oliver will just be standing in one spot firing arrows while DareDevil closes in on him. The fight might start at 100 feet, but that doesn't mean the distance will necessarily close as the battle goes on. Green Arrow would likely be doing whatever he can to increase this distance, while Matt will be doing whatever he can to close it. I just think 100 feet starting makes this an easier task for Oliver, then it does for Matt.

Like I said, given a change of location, I would easily say Matt closes the distance quickly, but I think this one favors Oliver a lot more. And I don't think this battle will end without the use of trick arrows being used.

@warlockmage

Daredevil has equal, if not superior, skill to Captain America. what you said is essentially equal to "Oliver could hold off Batman who was morals off" like its ok to make that claim but you really need to back it up with skill feats. I don't think Oliver has them

I don't think I agree with this reference. DareDevil has morals. And Green Arrow fought a near-morals off Batman in Superman/Batman 14, with Batman saying he would kill him if GA had hurt Superman with his trick arrow. Batman was definitely winning the fight, but it didn't start out that way. Green Arrow stopped Batman's blitz right from the start, by connecting with his bow, which broke it in half when he hit Batman. Batman wins after this, but like I was saying with him fighting DD, it's not like it was an instant win for Batman, and it shouldn't be for DareDevil either. Green Arrow isn't that bad of a fighter. And he's done well against Red Hood in Green Arrow 70, who is close to being a Batman with morals off. And that was with Red Hood knowing every one of Green Arrows tricks in the fight. There is enough evidence from Green Arrow to show that a close quarters fight won't be over with the instant Matt closes the distance, just like it wouldn't with Batman.

Daredevil was able to cross 2 blocks in a few seconds, how many trick arrows do you think Oliver is gonna get to fire off? not that many sorry he wont. against someone who regularly and actively dodges things from Bullseye, who is every bit Olivers superior in every way specifically the accuracy department, really? i don't believe it at all

and once again you assume Oliver will use Trick Arrows right off the bat. which is hardly consistent for a morals on Oliver. I mean you think Oliver is gonna just start opening off with lethal explosive arrows? because Oliver is a cold blooded killer right?

I think you should really take into consideration that Matt will have at least a little more trouble advancing with that kind of speed against a marksman of GA's caliber, and with the amount of versatile ammunition GA has. I don't see why everyone thinks GA needs to lead off right from the very start for his trick arrows to work. I also don't see why everyone thinks GA will just stand there while DD advances on him.

you sound like you've already made up your mind

As of right now, I kind of have. I really don't have a favorite in this fight, I just think I'm more convinced with Green Arrow winning, given that this battle seems to suit his advantages. DD will make him work very hard for it, I just don't think I've read anything in this thread that would make me think GA wouldn't take at least a slight majority. But I'm not voting yet, so I can change my mind if I see things differently later in the week.

@lubub55

@tparks: Vote Green Arrow, and I will take a dive in a CaV with you!

An easy CaV win does sound tempting.... :D

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#137 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Because you have lots of recurring points throughout your posts, I'm not going to quote specific text from you, and instead I'll just talk about points you've brought up.

Cover is something you've brought up. How Matt can avoid arrows behind things like cars and make his way towards Green Arrow like that.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Here are three separate examples of Oliver using trick arrows specifically to target people in cover. Not just AOE ones which could have that effect, this shows that he employs this as a tactic. In the last scan, we see that Ollie carries seeker arrows which will make cover irrelevant. He's been able to make shots without line of sight anyway, so that won't help either. Plus, he has boomerang arrows. (Connor was using Ollie's arrows in this issue.)

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Even in cover, Green Arrow can ricochet his shots to get around it, keeping the pressure on.

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Daredevil's stealth won't be an issue either. He's spotted Anarky just standing around trying to remain undetected on a rooftop far above him out of his line of sight, and he's described spotting an assassin that neither Lady Shiva nor The Question spotted as "a snap", saying it's nothing compared to him regularly hunting rabbits at night. (Which was commented on earlier in the issue.) Ollie can detect him with just his senses, but he also has mapping arrows which scan the area and feed back information to his goggles, making stealth a non-factor.

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Here are three examples of Green Arrow the environment in a city setting to his advantage. The first one will be particularly useful if Matt tries (And fails) to hide behind a car.

I don't see why people seem to think Ollie won't use sonics. They're not reserved exclusively for people with enhanced senses and he's used them on people like Deadshot before. It doesn't have to literally be his opening arrow for it to make a difference. And even if a sonic won't take Daredevil out the fight completely on its own, it will undoubtedly weaken him enough for Ollie to end the fight there an then, seeing as his sonics are powerful enough to mess with Hal Jordan's focus so much that he can't use his ring, and they've also taken people like Deadshot and The Atom to their knees. It's not as if Ollie needs sonics to win anyway, he has more than enough other trick arrows to land him a majority in this fight. And why would Daredevil hearing the sonic arrows be a good thing? That's how they do their damage. Hearing Ollie activate them will hinder him, not help him.

I have no doubt that Daredevil is a better close quarters combatant than Green Arrow, but Ollie's performance against Batman at the very least proves he won't get stomped there, and in the past he's recognized when he's at a disadvantage in melee and has used flechettes as distractions whilst he creates more room between the two, to fight to his advantages. Once he realises his opponent is better up close than him, he isn't going to risk another confrontation there and will make sure the fight stays at a distance.

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Matt deflecting arrows won't work well for him. Oliver carries net arrows which trigger before contact, wrapping up opponents. This will allow him to create even more distance between the two and use his more effective arrows whilst Matt is down. Daredevil simply knowing what trick arrows are coming his way won't be enough, when he doesn't have a counter to the AOE arrows.

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Not all of Oliver's arrows require contact to activate anyway, but the ones that do will still go off if Matt deflects them with his billy clubs.

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And it's not like he has to shoot them at Daredevil. He has plenty of AOE arrows that Matt can't dodge, like the electrical, explosive and cryonic arrows above. Matt can be as agile as he likes, but when the arrows don't even have to make contact with him to take him down, then he's screwed. You're right about the gas not working because of Daredevil's nostril filters, though.

Yes, Green Arrow tagged Constantine Drakon by outsmarting him. It isn't just the arrow-catching trick, he's targeted the legs of arrow timers like Constantine Drakon and Red Hood where it can't be deflected with the reach of Matt's clubs. And as for the Hawkeye scan, even if Daredevil fakes being blinded, it will still have the same effect as if he really were. He'll have to act exactly like a person with sight would, which means the result of it will be the same.

Oliver will also use things like flechettes and arrows in combination with melee fighting just like Matt, and he routinely shoots arrows while under fire himself. Hell, he often faces other master archers like Merlyn who are shooting right back at him the whole time. It's not as if Oliver can't shoot when he's also being targeted with range. A ranged fight is not the way Matt can win this.

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And Green Arrow's firing speed is nothing short of insane. In the first two we see that Ollie can fire so quickly that arrows he's fired separately overlap in the air, and in the last one, Green Arrow writer Kevin Smith states that for Oliver Queen, "nocking and firing ten arrows in ten seconds is a breeze".

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#138 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks:

And he's done well against Red Hood in Green Arrow 70

He won.

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#139 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Agreed. But that does not mean he is completely immune to getting tagged by it when in the middle of a melee battle.

It was suggested that Matt will toss his clubs while working his way at Oliver, in melee he is more likely to use the clubs for melee strikes.

I never said he had better reaction speed than Matt. I said he had better senses. Either way he was tagged because the trick shot was too unpredictable for him. Given the fact that Matt himself is a master of these, he is not going to be caught off guard with a ricocheting trick shot.

Point taken, but that works both ways. Green Arrow is a master of trick shots, and therefore taking him by surprise with a trick shot is easier said than done.

That's besides the point. Daredevil still knows Hawkeye and has a basic idea on what trick arrows are, so it is fair to say that he will expect them on some level.

Either way, he is not going to charge at him without thinking and will still think to use cover first.

On some level yes, but Oliver's trick arrows are different from Clint's. He has a larger variety of them and he uses them more creatively, and more often.

About using cover, well yeah he can use cars I guess, but that's counter productive seeing as Oliver can use it against him by blowing them up. What other things can he use? Not much I think really.

Matt has fought through explosions before:

Those are nice showings, but it's not like he laughed them off. He was evidently in pain and pretty shaken by those explosions, which is enough to give GA more and more advantage.

This is provided he manages to corner him to a wall in the first place. It's not like he is going to put him on the defensive throughout the whole fight.

I wasn't talking about cornering him, although that's very possible with the right arrow placement. It's like, if Matt passes by a wall on his way to Ollie (which is very likely since they're fighting in a street), or tries to use a wall for cover somehow, then GA can use these walls for his advantage, by firing trick arrows at them.

This is an extremely questionable strategy given the fact that he still needs to plant those arrows in said places in order to map them. How do you suppose he is going to do it in a random encounter and no prep beforehand?.

If Matt slips away from Oliver's sight, he can fire a few mapping arrows around himself to make sure Matt doesn't get close to him by surprise. Better yet, he can zipline onto a rooftop and plant the arrows around him.

Escaping Matt is easier said than done given his superior speed and agility. All Matt needs to do is throw his club at a nerve cluster and Ollie could lose his balance and maybe even fall.

I don't think that Matt can throw his club right at a nerve center as easily as you're suggesting. It has to be a very precise shot against someone who can both dodge the club and shoot it down in mid air.

What?. He did escape video surveillance.

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. But he escaped it when the two officers weren't looking at the monitor. He obviously heard them inside the van so he knew just when they came for the door which is when he moved away. It's more a feat of speed IMO.

No, but in a group therapy session where everyone is bound to start looking around due to boredom or nervousness. They don't need peak human level awareness for that when they have a working set of eyes or ears.

Plus he didn't hide in plain sight by dressing up as a normal man, he was completely invisible to them. Also, if he was doing it the way you mentioned, someone was bound to notice or ask him questions.

Could you maybe post the page(s) that came before that so we can see the context and all that?

He can fight through explosions if necessary and his suit his insulated against electric shocks at least at some level, as ghostravage pointed out. Plus he has taken attacks from classic Electro and tanked some powerful Wakandian electric weaponry in Waid's run and was up and fighting in less than an instance. Here are the scans.

Yeah but he was obviously still harmed by the electric surges. Oliver's electric arrows can harm Deathstroke:

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As you can see, Slade wasn't even in direct contact with the electric field and it still hurt him enough to make him lose grip on the bars he was swinging from. Not to mention that GA can fire numerous arrows at once to intensify that potency of the electric field.

That is assuming the trick arrow would even work on him in close quarters in the first place. I mean, once Matt is in close range, how many trick arrows can he use without risking damage to himself?

The first that come to mind are the sonic arrow, which he used on Deadshot in the exact same situation of wanting to avoid physical confrontation. There are also the gas arrows that he can use because he has a gas mask that protects him from the gas:

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In the 1st scan you can see him wearing the mask, and he also says that he had developed an immunity to it. And in the 2nd scan the mask doesn't appear, but in the last panel it is mentioned.

This is just your assumption. You assume the flashbang arrow is inferior to GA's or can cause damage to the ears, you need to prove it.

Well it's just coming from my personal knowledge and experience with flashbangs. I don't know the potency of Hawkeye's flashbangs, but judging by that scan that Ghost Ravage posted above they definitely have a smaller area of effect than Ollie's:

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Plus, Clint's arrow was phosphorus, not a flashbang. It just emitted light. Oliver's arrow from the scan above not only emitted more light than Clint's (evidently), but it also had the sonic effect I was talking about (judging by that "zwizzzz" in the middle panel).

And before I address your conclusion, could you list all of Ollie's trick arrows he uses as part of standard gear?. It would be appreciated, thanks

Well, there are only specific arrows that can't be counted as "standard" because Ollie specifically mentioned that he prepared them in certain instances, but I didn't list any of them here. It's just that whenever he fights he pulls different trick arrows out of his quiver according to what he needs at that moment.

The arrows that he uses consistently though are: Explosive, flashbang, electric, gas, zipline, glue, cryonic, fire, and others. He has a pretty huge quiver as you can see all the time, my guess would be that he has at least 60 arrows with him at all times, which is a lot.

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#140 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Bullet timing >>>arrow timing. Ollie can tag people who can react to arrows, while Matt beats people who react to bullets effortlessly and he himself has done so.

I'm not comparing who can tag faster people to compare speeds between the two characters, I'm doing it to say that Green Arrow will be able to tag Daredevil with his arrows. Regardless, Constantine Drakon's level of arrow timing is undoubtedly more impressive than most bullet timing, and Connor has actually speculated that he can react to bullets after they've been fired.

You are kidding right?. Matt's radar sense will give him a complete view of his environment, along with places for cover, stealth, and he will know the place better than Ollie in a matter of minutes. He can also climb, jump around and scale buildings better and faster too.

How in the world does Ollie have an advantage here?.

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Ollie has mapping arrows to give him a complete view of the environment, making stealth irrelevant.

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Green Arrow is no slouch in climbing either, and on top of that he's the one with the trick arrows to help him. He sure isn't climbing up a building faster than Green Arrow can grapple to the top. In a city setting, Daredevil has a grand total of zero advantages over Green Arrow.

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Not to mention he regularly uses things in urban environments to his advantage.

You are conflating two different fights with completely different contexts. When he fought Hawkeye, he wasn't trying to really hurt him and it was just competitive fighting, not to mention that he had his identity to protect and didn't want to seem unaffected by the flashbang arrow.

None of that is going to be at play here and he isn't going to stand there like a moron and overact about his eyes getting burned. He will be dodging or parrying them without breaking stride.

That's my point. If Daredevil doesn't fake being blinded, his super senses will be given away like he comments in the scan and then Oliver will use a sonic arrow on him. Game over. So Daredevil has two options here:

  1. Pretend to be blinded, in which case the arrow will still have its intended effect.
  2. Carry on attacking anyway, and then his enhanced senses will be given away and they'll be exploited with a sonic arrow.

Both options are in Green Arrow's favour.

The question is, will he get to use it before he gets beaten silly.

This isn't a fight where Oliver will shoot conventional arrows in Daredevil's direction as Matt deflects them all and then one-shots Oliver in melee as so many people seem to think. He'll be using trick arrows from the start of the fight, and using the environment to his advantage, recognising where he's beaten and will try to turn the battle in his favour. His performance against Batman at least proves he won't get outright fodderized, and his flechettes and trick arrows will still play a role at melee distance, as Oliver has shown time and time again.

I agree, but I already showed you how Matt can close the distance that fast and the fact that marksman with insane firing speed is something he is extremely used to fighting by now.

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Green Arrow's firing speed is nothing short of insane. In the first two we see that Ollie can fire so quickly that arrows he's fired separately overlap in the air, and in the last one, Green Arrow writer Kevin Smith states that for Oliver Queen, "nocking and firing ten arrows in ten seconds is a breeze".

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Sorry to scan dump you, but these arrows can't be avoided, no matter how fast Daredevil is. Green Arrow can take Daredevil out by shooting at the ground, or by timing time bombs and remote bombs so that they go off near Matt, and can use things like electrical and cryonic arrows, as well as nets and glue bombs.

Grundy is inconsistent in strength

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This particular incarnation could break clavicles by throwing people at them, could pick up and throw cars with a smile on his face and could shatter rock with his mis-hits.

Deathstroke was wailing on him when Ollie put an Arrow in his eye and he was mostly likely not even punching properly due to blind rage.

This is lowballing, and you know it. Deathstroke was pissed off and was actively trying to kill him.

Also, he never tanked those hits. He was quite helpless until the rest of his team members recovered and dog pilled him.

He couldn't fight back because Deathstroke is a much better fighter than him. Oliver got up straight afterwards without any serious injuries and actually helped restrain Slade.

And Daredevil can throw it hard enough to embed it in solid concrete, so it is not something he will just be shrugging off.

Hits from Solomon Grundy and Deathstroke are clearly more powerful than that, and they didn't so much to him.

And what will Ollie do when the Billy club hits a nerve cluster and just shuts him down?

This is Matt's best shot at winning, but let's reverse that. What will Matt do when Ollie shoots AOE arrows like explosives, glue bombs and electrics at him? With Ollie's further range, this is much more likely to happen than Matt winning with a nerve strike. And it's not like Ollie has never fought people who can use pressure points before.

But he still needs to manually fire the arrows to those areas first right?. You honestly believe he is going to have every nook and cranny filled with mapping arrows, in a random encounter, while in the middle of the fight?. That's a huge stretch.

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Just one arrow maps out the entire area. If Daredevil tries to stealth (See my other post for why that won't work) then Ollie will fire one of these and will immediately have Matt's location fed back to him through his goggles.

It's not just insane reaction time. It's that coupled with his incredible agility and speed which makes Daredevil so good at dodging. And your second example is flawed since he has tagged people with far better reaction time than Ollie anyways. I mean let me know when he can dodge bullets because he can see them faster or catch bullets without looking.

I'm not arguing that Ollie is faster than Captain America or Iron Fist, what I'm saying is that he does have advantages over either of them individually to make it harder for Matt to tag him with billy clubs. Particularly his mastery of ranged combats and trick shots in combination with his speed.

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And I'd also argue that this reaction feat from Oliver is more impressive than most bullet timing.

So reacting to bullets after they are fired and effortlessly jumping over 14 feet in the air is not enough evidence that he can jump over a freaking arrow?. Come on now.

No. They're completely different.

But anyhoo, here are some feats of his leaping ability

Now obviously there is much more where that came from, but the first two showcase his ability launch himself in the air and how effortlessly he can do.

The last scan is of him leaping over AND catching an arrow after it was fired, just in case there is any doubt if he can do that when he has done the same against bullets.

Matt is very agile no doubt, but no matter how high he can jump, it doesn't prove he can jump over an arrow after it's been fired. The last one has no indication that Matt moved after. Constantine Drakon can leap across entire rooms anyway and it was speculated that he could bullet time, and he was still tagged by a shot to the feet.

Sure thing, but Matt has fought better tacticians.

You're going to have to expand on that. And Daredevil has never fought anybody with Green Arrow's arsenal, as well as his unorthodox tactics and environmental usage.

Why would he just fake anything when he can just dodge or deflect arrows?.

If Ollie uses an arrow meant to blind and Matt doesn't react, Ollie will figure out his enhanced senses and will use a sonic arrow.

And won't he also be affected by the sonic arrow if he uses them in close quarters?.

You'd think so, but for some reason it never seems to work that way.

I never said he will one shot Ollie, but once he starts beating him up, there is nothing much he will be able to do.

He's used trick arrows and flechettes up close before, and he's made it a point to create distance if he feels he's outmatched in close quarters.

Okay fine. But that doesn't really change the outcome.

Agreed. Oliver wins regardless.

I will humour you. Let's say he keeps making distance. So what will he do once he inevitably runs out of arrows?

Are you telling me that Daredevil will deflect or tank literally every arrow in Green Arrow's quiver, and then still be in a position to beat him up? Because that'd be pretty insane. If the only way Daredevil can win is for Green Arrow to run out of arrows, then I think that proves this isn't a fight Daredevil can win.

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#141 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: I'm not comparing who can tag faster people to compare speeds between the two characters, I'm doing it to say that Green Arrow will be able to tag Daredevil with his arrows. Regardless, Constantine Drakon's level of arrow timing is undoubtedly more impressive than most bullet timing, and Connor has actually speculated that he can react to bullets after they've been fired.

Drakon's feat being impressive than reacting to bullets, after they are fired is debatable. Especially when the person you are comparing to is Daredevil. Still, you are also ignoring the fact that Drakon does not have the agility feats at par with Matt and Connor speculating him reacting to bullets is just that.

Ollie has mapping arrows to give him a complete view of the environment, making stealth irrelevant.

You still haven't addressed as to how he is going to get all those arrows into every possible hiding place there is, in a random encounter, while mid battle.

Matt's radar works nigh instantaneously and he needs little to no concentration to get a complete map of the whole area. As my previous scan from post number 15 showed, he can pinpoint the location of a sniper from two blocks away, that's how far his radar can stretch.

Green Arrow is no slouch in climbing either, and on top of that he's the one with the trick arrows to help him. He sure isn't climbing up a building faster than Green Arrow can grapple to the top. In a city setting, Daredevil has a grand total of zero advantages over Green Arrow.

I don't want to repeat myself, but did you catch my scan on post 15 where he crosses 2 blocks and climbs up a building in what amounts to a few seconds to a minute tops? That is enough to say he is faster at climbing than Ollie. Plus, he can leap much higher and thus climb faster.

Regardless, the isn't going to just stand there with an awe expression as Ollie is climbing. He is more likely to throw something at him to get him down, like I also mentioned.

Zero advantages is really an over estimation, if I have ever seen it. He is better at scaling buildings, better agility, an in built mapping sense and you still think he has no advantage at all?

That's my point. If Daredevil doesn't fake being blinded, his super senses will be given away like he comments in the scan and then Oliver will use a sonic arrow on him. Game over. So Daredevil has two options here:

Okay then, let's say Ollie figures out that Daredevil was unfazed by the flash bang arrow. Then what?. What is to stop him from assuming that his mask just has some kind of gear that protects him from stuff like this?. That is a far more logical conclusion than assuming blindness since blind people do not move around like that. Or better yet, he would just write it off as him being that good at hiding his pain.

If anything, it's Ollie who will be at a disadvantage if he does that since he is bound to let his guard down by expecting Matt to flinch. He will be in for a rude surprise when he finds out otherwise and realises that he has just given away an opening.

This isn't a fight where Oliver will shoot conventional arrows in Daredevil's direction as Matt deflects them all and then one-shots Oliver in melee as so many people seem to think. He'll be using trick arrows from the start of the fight, and using the environment to his advantage, recognising where he's beaten and will try to turn the battle in his favour. His performance against Batman at least proves he won't get outright fodderized, and his flechettes and trick arrows will still play a role at melee distance, as Oliver has shown time and time again.

Firstly, when I never said Matt will just deflect arrows. I said Matt will do that plus dodge and take cover. I don't think he can one shot Ollie unless he uses a nerve strike but he will beat him for a majority. A big one.

Flechettes are going to be nothing but a momentary distraction, if that. You are really overplaying his ability to make distance.

Green Arrow's firing speed is nothing short of insane. In the first two we see that Ollie can fire so quickly that arrows he's fired separately overlap in the air, and in the last one, Green Arrow writer Kevin Smith states that for Oliver Queen, "nocking and firing ten arrows in ten seconds is a breeze".

And you think Matt hasn't dodged bullets and deflected projectiles from people like Bullseye, Punisher or Deadpool who have similar to more impressive accuracy feats?.

Sorry to scan dump you, but these arrows can't be avoided, no matter how fast Daredevil is. Green Arrow can take Daredevil out by shooting at the ground, or by timing time bombs and remote bombs so that they go off near Matt, and can use things like electrical and cryonic arrows, as well as nets and glue bombs.

It's not a problem and you can check out post 131 where I have shown how Matt can fight through loud noises, explosions and electric attacks. For a guy who can escape a locked jail cell with no effort, how much trouble do you think a net arrow is going to cause him?

As for the glue bombs, Matt just needs to dodge or jump over them. Problem solved.

This particular incarnation could break clavicles by throwing people at them, could pick up and throw cars with a smile on his face and could shatter rock with his mis-hits.

And if you think Ollie is consistently that durable, I will be happy to show scans which can prove that Matt can take his head off his shoulders in one hit. You see the flaw in that?

This is lowballing, and you know it. Deathstroke was pissed off and was actively trying to kill him.

Okay maybe it was, apologies. But still, you don't see the flaw in thinking Ollie can take hits from a bloodlusted Slade with no signs of apparent injury?

He couldn't fight back because Deathstroke is a much better fighter than him.

I know. That was kind of my point.

Hits from Solomon Grundy and Deathstroke are clearly more powerful than that, and they didn't so much to him.

See here is the problem. I mean you do know that Ollie has been injured by far less right?. So judging his durability by those high end feats is just that.

At the risk of sounding like broken record, Daredevil has dropped Tombstone in one hit (laughs of hits from Spider-man) and has injured Bruiser with a kick. The same Bruiser who caused Kaine to injure his leg kicking him the same way. So what do you think would happen to Ollie if I try and argue that Matt can consistently hit that hard?

his is Matt's best shot at winning, but let's reverse that. What will Matt do when Ollie shoots AOE arrows like explosives, glue bombs and electrics at him? With Ollie's further range, this is much more likely to happen than Matt winning with a nerve strike. And it's not like Ollie has never fought people who can use pressure points before.

I have already covered the AOE arrows. And has he fought people who consistently use nerve strikes like Matt and most importantly, avoided such an attack?.

Just one arrow maps out the entire area. If Daredevil tries to stealth (See my other post for why that won't work) then Ollie will fire one of these and will immediately have Matt's location fed back to him through his goggles.

Be realistic here. How often do you think he is going to chase Matt to a location, shoot a mapping arrow. Rinse and repeat until he covers every possible stealth space?. I am guessing not a lot

I'm not arguing that Ollie is faster than Captain America or Iron Fist, what I'm saying is that he does have advantages over either of them individually to make it harder for Matt to tag him with billy clubs. Particularly his mastery of ranged combats and trick shots in combination with his speed.

That still does not make him immune to getting tagged by one in the middle of a melee battle.

And I'd also argue that this reaction feat from Oliver is more impressive than most bullet timing.

Superior when compared to aim dodgers than sure. But compared to people with legit bullet reaction speed (after it has left the gun)?. Hell no. Simply due to the fact that if a person is fast enough to perceive bullets and react accordingly, an arrow is going to be much slower.

I fail to see how this is even a debate tbh.

No. They're completely different.

Um, how and why exactly?. We have already established that he is fast enough to see arrows in slow motion, so you think he cannot just jump over them?. Put two and two together mate.

Matt is very agile no doubt, but no matter how high he can jump, it doesn't prove he can jump over an arrow after it's been fired. The last one has no indication that Matt moved after.

Like I already said above, to a guy who can practically see arrows come at him with a much slower pace than they are actually moving, simply jumping as high as he can is not going to be hard. In fact, it is going to be effortless for him.

The point of the scan was to show how fast he can jump and flip. I wasn't using it as a reaction feat.

Constantine Drakon can leap across entire rooms anyway and it was speculated that he could bullet time, and he was still tagged by a shot to the feet.

Speculation =/= cold hard feats. And if I am not mistaken, he tagged him by tricking him not by being fast enough to tag him per say.

You're going to have to expand on that. And Daredevil has never fought anybody with Green Arrow's arsenal, as well as his unorthodox tactics and environmental usage.

Punisher and Captain America. The latter could not even get a leg up on him in spite of ambushing him with chaff that messed up his radar sense to the point of uselessness. The former has been unable to get the best of Matt in spite of being one of the finest combat tacticians, without prep beforehand. In a combat scenario at least.

If Ollie uses an arrow meant to blind and Matt doesn't react, Ollie will figure out his enhanced senses and will use a sonic arrow.

You have already argued this and I have put a reply for it above.

He's used trick arrows and flechettes up close before, and he's made it a point to create distance if he feels he's outmatched in close quarters.

Easier said than done.

Agreed. Oliver wins regardless.

Not for a majority.

Are you telling me that Daredevil will deflect or tank literally every arrow in Green Arrow's quiver, and then still be in a position to beat him up? Because that'd be pretty insane. If the only way Daredevil can win is for Green Arrow to run out of arrows, then I think that proves this isn't a fight Daredevil can win.

Actually I was addressing the part where you think that Ollie will just fly away and make distance any time the fight gets up and close. So I asked you what would he do if he eventually ran out of arrows

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#142 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

As for the rest, I will reply in a lil bit

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#143 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

As for the rest, I will reply in a lil bit

NOW!!!

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#144 Posted by BruceRogers (17314 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Come on Lu, I am not on my laptop and exhausted. Hold yer horsies

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#145 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio
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#146 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

You made some excellent points. But there are a few things I want to address:

Thank you.

That's a nice one (can I get the scan by the way?) but here it's different. For starters, they're out in the open - not in a room, plus they start pretty far off from each other, so smells would be harder to notice. Secondly, even if he smells an explosive coming his way, it's not like he can outrace it. Matt's senses and reaction speed are absolutely good enough to avoid being directly tagged by Green Arrow, but that's not what Ollie will be going for in the first place. He will aim the arrow so it lands beside Matt, in front of him, on a wall he hides behind, etc, and Matt can't outrace that. Arrows go at around 300-400 FPS, Matt can't outrace an arrow from 100 feet away or less. And finally, there are arrows that Matt won't be able to smell, like the electric arrow for example, or the cryonic arrow, and of course the sonic arrow.

Sure, here's the scan. Would you like me to post the other scan from Deadpool vol.3 #11? Just ask for it.

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I understand the absurdly advantageous starting distance, but distance is hardly a problem for someone with such a sensitive and powerful sense of smell, specially when he can smell things way beyond 100 feet away from him, take for example the time where he was following a guy that was several blocks away from him already just because he could smell the traces of battery acid in the air back in Daredevil vol.2 #26, along with multiple scents. It worths to note that Daredevil recently caught himself in a museum sized explosion and was having trouble focusing and still pulled it off, is not like he needs to focus as much all the time.

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Likewise, in the same issue, he was literally smelling and discerning multiple smells all over a street intersection and beyond, which means locking Green Arrow and trying to discern his gear is completely applicable here, specially since he's capable of even smelling things that hardly have a noticeable scent, let alone tear gas (which i already showed could smell over half a block away from him) or explosives.

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The distance between them isn't thart large, even though it is indeed something that was completely added to the match to favor Green Arrow and less of a distance would have been even more balanced as it is right now. Either way, roughly 100 feet looks like this, which is a distance that by Daredevil standards is rather short and he could cover it incredibly fast.

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Anyways, smell works both ways, he can smell the arrow while it is still in the quiver and preparing himself for the use of it, meaning that picking the arrow up, dragging the string back and shooting the arrows is more than enough time for Matt to know what type of arrow he's been shot with and moving accordingly. Matt doesn't need to outrace the explosion, he just needs to jump away when the arrow is traveling and considering the distance, there is hardly any absurdly over the top shot that can't be avoided, Matt has way too much space to jump around unharmed and unbothered. To address the electric arrows, he does smell electricity the same way he feels it and tastes it. The latter was proven back in Daredevil vol.1 #2 when he was tracking electro... He could easily feel the electrical vibrations several meters away from Electro.

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The former was proven back in Daredevil vol.1 #322 when he literally stated he could smell the air charged with electricity while at the same time tracking 3 arrows shot at him from the distance, in my opinion and looking at how the arrows work, Daredevil can easily hit them off the air with his billy clubs or simply sense them coming and jump... After all, it is a discharge launched through the ground, ergo, easily avoidable for someone like Daredevil.

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Cryogenic arrows can be easily avoided... Like, one of the easiest arrows to avoid in his arsenal, specially because they hardly work on agile people that can jump around, hide behind obstacles and climb buildings just as easy as Green Arrow, not to mention is one of those arrows that need to make contact to detonate, ergo, easily deflected or intercepted. As per sonic arrows, he can hear them, i thought that was obvious.

Yeah and there's nothing stopping Ollie from hitting the floor or the walls beside Daredevil. Also, Ollie can manually detonate the gas arrows whenever he chooses:

Alright, he can detonate gas arrows. How does he get past the fact Daredevil has filters? Needless to say, how does he counter the fact Daredevil MUST move away as fast as i he can to close the gap instead of amateurishly remain in the same spot as those soldiers were doing? After all, they had guns, Daredevil does not, meaning that giving him the time for something like that to happen isn't quite likely.

Matt doesn't have to catch the glue or cryonic arrows to trigger them:

The first scan clearly shows the cryogenic arrow detonating on contact. Never said glue arrows needed to detonate on contact and the fact they didn't when they were used on Drakon was enough for me. Electric arrows also detonated on contact, clearly and explicitly showcased in the scan when they were shot at the floor.

Well, I doubt that's really standard gear. Even in your next scan, which came chronologically after the one where he uses the filters, he is shown to be affected by tear gas.

He is affected but only in his eyes and most likely taste. He made it pretty clear it hardly had effect on him and proceeded to simply beat the crap out of that robot and flee like nothing happened. In simple words, he was just tearing and that's it. He was not affected by the gas in his nose nor lungs, he was affected in his eyes, which by default do not work to begin with.

That's just a writer who knows nothing on tear gas. Tear gas doesn't only blind you like pepper spray, which is obviously useless against an already blind opponent. It suffocates you, and yes it is also absorbed through the skin and creates a burning sensation to go with the suffocation. It will most certainly have an effect on Daredevil.

Actually, i think it is you who doesn't know anything about tear gas. It affects various parts of the body in different ways and it actually pin points those parts. This is from a simple google search in wikipedia:

"Tear gas works by irritating mucous membranes in the eyes, nose, mouth and lungs, and causes crying, sneezing, coughing, difficulty breathing, pain in the eyes, and temporary blindness. With CS gas, symptoms of irritation typically appear after 20–60 seconds of exposure[1] and commonly resolve within 30 minutes of leaving (or being removed from) the area."

So from this explanation we got tear gas mostly affects the eyes considering the crying, pain in the eyes and temporary blindness it causes. We also got that in order to create difficulty in breathing and coughing it must go down through the respiratory tract to the lungs and in order to do that it must also go inside the nose or mouth. So what Daredevil has to counter all of this:

  • Nostril Filters to filter the air that goes down to the lungs. ✔
  • Breathing through the nose to avoid being affected through the mouth. ✔
  • He's already blind and his eyes are in every essence of the word, useless. ✔
  • Daredevil actually has a synthetic suit that covers most of his body. ✔

I'm sorry, but tear gas had absolutely no means to make itself relevant in that particular instance, and it sure as hell won't have any relevance here. Easily avoidable, easily countered.

As I said, Oliver's arrows can affect Daredevil even if he knows they're coming. Explosives, electrics and gas are just a few examples. Regarding the billy clubs, Ollie can shoot them out of the air, and seeing as he's an expert on ricochets himself, he can see if that's what Matt is going for.

You're completely neglecting the fact Daredevil can move out of the way, hit the damn arrows down before they even get to him or simply cover himself with cars, dumpsters, other buildings, alleyways... After all, it is a city set up, like Manhattan nonetheless, more than enough cover and battleground paraphernalia for Matt to use. You haven't showcased anything remotely relevant to counter Daredevil's billy club ricochet and the fact he can ricochet his arrows with simple shots, nothing like Daredevil's, hardly proves he can dodge them, like, the justification doesn't even make sense. I mean, he overpowered an actual martial artist that had precognition on top of it and you've shown Green Arrow shooting his arrow and ricocheting 3 times... Give me a break now, unless you show me something as complex as what Daredevil has done and Green Arrow dodging it or reacting to it, i'm not buying this. Either way, Daredevil vol.1 #317.

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Also, what obstacles are you talking about, cars? Because that's the only cover I can think of here. That would actually be very counter productive for Matt:

Obstacles as everything, even getting inside buildings. After all, it is a Manhattan sized battleground that might actually be the city of Manhattan. Regardless, did you miss the part when Deadshot after being slightly bothered by the small explosion was completely capable of shoot him? What's stopping Daredevil from doing the same, even throwing the damn Billy Clubs from underneath the hypothetically used as cover car like he did against The Punisher, someone that by his own right has superb reflexes with guns, back in Daredevil vs Punisher #4?

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It is way easier to block something like that, when you already have a gun pointing in that direction... The same can't be said about Green Arrow and his arrows. Obviously.

Matt will try and parkour his way toward Oliver, while throwing his clubs to create pressure. Ollie is more than capable of shooting Matt's clubs out of the air, essentially disarming him. He will also not try and aim directly at Matt, but shoot AOE arrows at the ground and the walls around him, as well as any cars he might want to use for cover. Matt might be aware that he has an explosive coming his way but that will hardly help him, since he can't outrace its area of effect. Green Arrow has a plethora of options here: he can use explosives to knock Daredevil out, use gas to knock him out or suffocate him, use electric arrows to electrocute him and knock him out, use glue or cryonic arrows to incapacitate him by sticking/freezing him in place, or a sonic arrow to incapacitate him. Even if the sonic arrow will only momentarily disorient Matt, it's all that Oliver really needs, seeing as he can fire arrows at blinding speeds. Oliver can fire multiple arrows at once and he often does it in-character, which will make it even harder for Matt to avoid them. If one volley of arrows will not work, Green Arrow's rate of fire is good enough to sent another, different volley fast enough to have an effect on Daredevil. Even if somehow Matt closes the gap, which is in itself very unlikely, Green Arrow won't be defeated that fast, he will realize that going for a hand-to-hand fight will not be a good idea, so he will manually trigger a trick arrow to create a distraction, and use this moment's respite to create distance between them once more.

Parkour is an understatement. We're talking about a guy that in plain sight, in daylight, while completely visible and also trying to conceal his identity, can flat out disappear in-front of a sniper that is already aiming at him, dress up and climb a 6 story building 2 blocks away in seconds as showcased back in Daredevil vol.2 #28.

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To be honest, at this point i think you're completely tunnelvisioning the fight as if Ollie will be on a higher ground and Daredevil will just remain in plain sight. You do know the battle takes place in a completely interactive scenario resemblant to a city the size of Manhattan. You might as well think they won't even engage each other until they are closer, at least for Daredevil and it has been rather consistent for him to avoid being seen and simply close the gap whenever he can. I think i've been over-explaining myself on how most of those arrows won't work on Matt but i still feel you're purposely neglecting the counters. The area of effect of his explosive arrows is hardly relevant to be honest, he tried to detonate a car and simply exploded on the front part of it. The same goes for the other arrows which you and your crew are exaggerating like there's no tomorrow.

As per the hand to hand combat, don't you think Matt knowing he's been shooting trick arrows all this time will first try to disable his ranged weapons like he did against Hawkeye and deal with his trick arrows before actually engaging completely in hand 2 hand combat? Hell, if he closes the gap i fail to see why something like this, while dodging at an alarming rate, wouldn't happen... Deadpool vol.3 #11.

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Of course, this in combination with his billy club strings to a quicker incapacitation like he did against Deadpool, once again, in an older instance from Contest of Champions II #4 when he used his ricochet ability along with the strings to make him fall and lose balance.

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Yeah, i'm just not seeing Green Arrow casually reacting to the billy club ricochet, much less hitting them away with his arrows like you're implying. People have shown absolutely nothing besides his trick arrows and how they work instead of supporting the arguments with an actual instance explaining what he could do. Simply asserting and making logical conjectures about his arrows, area of effect and how Daredevil apparently is going to be stupid enough to fail to recognize key factors about him, like go inside buildings to avoid being shot so many times, opt for a more stealthy approach and take advantage of his rather unpractical piece of equipment, because lets be honest, bow and arrows were a thing of the past, that's why he was guns nowadays, they are simply better.

Summary

My point stands. Daredevil quickly shortens the distance between them by hiding behind obstacles and buildings, overpowers him in close quarter combat and opts to either drop him with pressure points or incapacitate him, simple, but effective nonetheless.

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#147 Posted by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio
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#148 Edited by lubub55 (12905 posts) - - Show Bio
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#149 Edited by Nathaniel_Adam (3716 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted for Daredevil becauase he has extremely fast response towrads projectiles. (bullets, arrows, darts, blasts and other thrown objects) I can't see him not bypassing even Green Arrow's offense, though trick arrows are tricky as some of them are hardly avoidable. So all in all, it basically depends on Oliver's usage of arrows.

Edit: I will read through the arguments, especially for Green Arrow. I'm not expert on either character.

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#150 Posted by Nima_ (2104 posts) - - Show Bio

DD wins for many of the reasons already stated. Also...

1) How will Ollie know to use sonic arrows? Will that really be his go to move? And banking this fight on Ollie hopefully using that one advantage he has going for him when Matt has the advantage everywhere else that matters is a poor conclusion to come to.

2) I could have sworn Matt has fought through sonic attacks before, including against Klaw.