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Posted by jashro44 (51971 posts) 1 year, 10 months ago

Poll: Battle of the week: Green Arrow vs Daredevil (169 votes)

Green Arrow 31%
Daredevil 62%
Too Close To Call 7%
No Caption Provided

For this weeks battle of the week we have the Emerald Archer Green Arrow versus The Man Without Fear Daredevil! Who will win? You decide!

Rules

  • Green arrow gets post crisis, rebirth/new 52 feats
  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 100 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • Incapacitation, knockout, BFR (battlefield removal, which means knocking someone so far away that the fight cannot continue in the very near future) or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat.
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs. Viner posts that stand out will be included at the end.
  • Votes last till late Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

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#1 Posted by TheKinfing (11692 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt.

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#2 Edited by decaf_wizard (16822 posts) - - Show Bio

I activate my ninth teir summoning spell: Summon @ghostravage, Slayer of Men

I don't know enough about Arrow to comment myself

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#3 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt for sure.

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#4 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by HankScorpio (120 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt should be able to defeat Ollie in a decent battle. His agility and radar sense will serve him best here against Ollie's arsenal of arrows and other tricks. Ollie will keep him on his toes, but the biggest factor is when Matt closes in on him and it comes down to their hand to hand capabilities. Ollie is good, but he won't stand much of a chance against Matts skill and pressure point attacks.

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#6 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

For now I'm saying Ollie because of equipment. He has AOE arrows to counter Matt's agility and to take him down, and in a city setting he can grapple away to create distance between the two if Matt closes the gap. He can fire multiple arrows at once and has fired tactically in the past in order to tag people faster than Matt, like Constantine Drakon. Ollie's trick arrows and unorthodox tactics, combined with the setting, should let him take a majority here.

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#7 Edited by The_Man_With_Questions (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends of Ollie's arsenal. If he decides to utilize things such as sonic arrows, then Matt might be screwed.

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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

100 feet apart? No way is Ollie losing this.

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#9 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio
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Ollie carries things like sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows, glue arrows and cryonic arrows. People will try to bring up Matt's speed and agility to say he can easily dodge or deflect all the arrows, but with his AOE arrows like the first two dodging won't be possible, and with the last two deflecting the arrows will be a terrible idea. He has other things to end the fight quickly, like explosive and electrical arrows.

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Moreover, Ollie has tagged Constantine Drakon before by shooting tactically, when Drakon is faster than Matt. (I can expand on this.) He fires at Drakon's feet where the arrow can't be intercepted after using a trick arrow on him. The specific trick arrow he used there in that way would be irrelevant against a blind man, but either Matt fakes it or Ollie realises he's blind, and if the latter happens then Ollie is going to whip out the sonic arrows. As a replacement for a glue arrow, Ollie has actually done this same trick against Red Hood by using the environment to his advantage in a location which didn't favour him.

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#11 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio
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Matt is a better melee fighter, sure, but Ollie isn't an idiot. He'll recognize that he's outmatched in that area and do his best to create distance between the two, in order to utilize his advantages.

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And considering the fight takes place in a city, Oliver can grapple up on buildings which Matt will have to climb, in order to get the high ground. He can keep doing this whilst firing trick arrows whilst Daredevil tries to get to his position.

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#12 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking forward to this. I'm favouring Daredevil for a majority though since Ollie needs to stay at range to win.

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#13 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

Ollie is fast enough on the draw (faster than Deadshot to be more specific) to rain a barrage of AOE trick arrows on Daredevil before he can get within range of attacking Oliver. He uses stuff like explosives, knockout/tear-gas, electric, cryonic, and more all the time, it's literally his trademark.

If Matt tries throwing his clubs then that won't work either, since Ollie is a legit arrow-timer and he can either dodge Matt's clubs or shoot them out of the air.

I would love to hear a better argument for Daredevil than what was suggested until now.

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#14 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Looking forward to this. I'm favouring Daredevil for a majority though since Ollie needs to stay at range to win.

Ollie starts at range, lol. He has the advantage right off the bat.

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#15 Edited by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil for a very comfortable majority. Ollie's main advantage in this fight are his trick arrows and while he could win and even conceivably stomp if any of them connect, there are several factors to be considered here. (Note- I am not entirely sure on what kind of trick arrows Ollie uses as part of his standard gear, but I am going off what I have heard from my debates featuring him.)

For starters, Ollie has no clue that he is fighting a blind guy with enhanced senses, thus he is not likely to open with his sonic arrow when he can just start off with normal ones. Hell, one can even argue that he may not even get a chance to use his trick arrows before Matt closes the distance and beats him down. More on that in a moment.

Now since Daredevil is already well known for his plethora of bullet reaction feats, I don't think there is any doubt he can dodge an arrow or even six of them, all thanks to his radar sense and nimbleness. The question here is, will Daredevil be able to close the gap before Ollie resorts to his more lethal options?. The answer is yes. For instance, this is what he can do in terms of movement speed.

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As you can see, Daredevil senses a sniper on top of a building and immediately runs and closes the distance of 2 blocks, within seconds to a minute most.

In all fairness, Ollie is much better than some fodder assassin and will have Matt on his sights whenever he can, but having the speed to cover 2 blocks in a matter of seconds combined with his agility to jump around or stealth around buildings, he will be able to close the distance in no time. Ollie will not be able to use any of his deadlier arrows in CQC and cannot really hang with Matt in that department and he goes down in time.

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#16 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't GA have arrows that use people's senses against them like, sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows etc.

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#17 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't GA have arrows that use people's senses against them like, sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows etc.

Sure. But he doesn't know anything about Matt or his weakness sooo...

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#19 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't GA have arrows that use people's senses against them like, sonic arrows, sleeping gas arrows etc.

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Damn right, he does.

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#21 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

Ollie is fast enough on the draw (faster than Deadshot to be more specific) to rain a barrage of AOE trick arrows on Daredevil before he can get within range of attacking Oliver. He uses stuff like explosives, knockout/tear-gas, electric, cryonic, and more all the time, it's literally his trademark.

If Matt tries throwing his clubs then that won't work either, since Ollie is a legit arrow-timer and he can either dodge Matt's clubs or shoot them out of the air.

I would love to hear a better argument for Daredevil than what was suggested until now.

Matt has tagged people like Cap and Iron Fist with his billy clubs. Hell, he tagged a guy with equal skill and superior senses with a very complicated trick shot.

What makes Ollie any different?. Also, see my above post on the trick arrows

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#22 Edited by Vertigo- (17679 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be putting up a case for why Matt wins later in the week or something

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#23 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: Who says he wouldnt use those arrows anyways?

He does not spam trick arrows or more specifically, sonic arrows, in character. He is much more likely to open with the regular ones first. Matt can close the distance before he decides to use them.

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#24 Edited by HankScorpio (120 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean how many sonic arrows does Ollie normally carry? All jokes about unlimited arrows in fiction aside, its not like he has a massive amount to utilize in a random encounter. Plus Matt will hear them coming with his radar sense.

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#25 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

@hankscorpio: Hearing sonic arrows is the whole point. That isn't a benefit to Daredevil.

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#26 Posted by HankScorpio (120 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: I'm saying won't he be able to get far enough from them that it won't become an issue? Surely a sonic arrow has a radius than can be avoided if somebody is fast enough.

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#27 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: I have a few questions regarding your post. You say he tagged Drakon using that aforementioned tactic and claim it will be successful with Matt because Drakon is faster than Matt. I mean sure, I can agree on the faster part in terms of combat speed maybe, but Matt has better agility feats and has a better reaction time, thus affording him better avoidance.

You are also neglecting the fact that given that they are fighting in a city, Matt has tons of options for stealth or cover. I am also not following on how Ollie will figure out his blindness either

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#28 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll side with Matt.

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#29 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

For starters, Ollie has no clue that he is fighting a blind guy with enhanced senses, thus he is not likely to open with his sonic arrow when he can just start off with normal ones.

He's used a sonic arrow on Deadshot to incapacitate him, when he knows for a fact that Floyd isn't blind. He doesn't reserve them exclusively for people with enhanced senses. He also uses things like glue arrows as an opening move, which can stick Matt in place or blind people who catch it. If that happens, Matt will either have to fake being blinded like he did against Hawkeye in which case the arrow will still get the same result, or carry on anyway and then his blindness will be given away, and Ollie will use a sonic arrow.

Hell, one can even argue that he may not even get a chance to use his trick arrows before Matt closes the distance and beats him down.

The question here is, will Daredevil be able to close the gap before Ollie resorts to his more lethal options?. The answer is yes. For instance, this is what he can do in terms of movement speed.

As you can see, Daredevil senses a sniper on top of a building and immediately runs and closes the distance of 2 blocks, within seconds to a minute most.

In all fairness, Ollie is much better than some fodder assassin and will have Matt on his sights whenever he can, but having the speed to cover 2 blocks in a matter of seconds combined with his agility to jump around or stealth around buildings, he will be able to close the distance in no time.

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Matt is a better melee fighter, sure, but Ollie isn't an idiot. He'll recognize that he's outmatched in that area and do his best to create distance between the two, in order to utilize his advantages.

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And considering the fight takes place in a city, Oliver can grapple up on buildings which Matt will have to climb, in order to get the high ground. He can keep doing this whilst firing trick arrows whilst Daredevil tries to get to his position. (Definitely not a copy of a post I made a few minutes ago.)

Plus, if Ollie sees somebody running that fast towards him, he'll try and impede his progress with things like electrical and explosive arrows, which have an AOE which Matt can't avoid.

Now since Daredevil is already well known for his plethora of bullet reaction feats, I don't think there is any doubt he can dodge an arrow or even six of them, all thanks to his radar sense and nimbleness.

Sure he can react to arrows, but Ollie has used unorthodox tactics against arrow timers like Red Hood and Constantine Drakon. He'll aim for the legs where arrows can't be blocked, and he will use trick arrows and the environment for distraction, all whilst creating more distance between the two. He's tagged people faster than Matt, so just being an arrow timer isn't enough.

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Here's how casually Constantine Drakon can react to arrows.

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And here's what happened when Drakon faced Oliver Queen in a close quarters environment, performing a similar feat to what you mentioned Daredevil can do later in your post.

Ollie will not be able to use any of his deadlier arrows in CQC

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He's activated trick arrows up close before, and he's also used flechettes as melee weapons and distractions for doing other things up close. I can provide scans for those if you'd like.

He is much more likely to open with the regular ones first. Matt can close the distance before he decides to use them.

Ollie regularly opens up with trick arrows.

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#30 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Ollie can very easily shoot and intercept Daredevil's clubs mid-flight:

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And although he won't necessarily use a sonic arrow for his opening move, he has a plethora of other arrows he can use for a very easy win:

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Left to right: electric, explosive, knockout gas, tear gas, glue, net. There are more of course.

He can fire multiple arrows at once as seen in some of the scans above and in more that I can provide, and he can draw and fire at blinding speeds:

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In the first one he shows that he is faster on the draw than Deadshot (Deadshot pulled his guns before Ollie pulled his arrows out of his quiver, but he still fired before Deadshot did, which forced Deadshot to shoot his arrows out in mid air instead of shooting Ollie himself), and in the second he fires 2 arrows so that the tail of the first is in line with the head of the second. If I calculate this feat it will show that Ollie can fire faster than a machine gun, but I won't do it because that's BS.

And on top of all that, if Matt somehow DOES cross those 30 meters and gets to Ollie, which is borderline impossible, Ollie will understand that he's physically outmatched and use a zipline arrow to go on top of a building or something:

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All in all, yeah, Ollie wins a very solid majority here.

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#31 Posted by Debelindzo (832 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh* I knew people will blindly vote for Daredevil without posting any convincing arguments. The only one who made an effort so far is @brucerogers...

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#33 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: He's used a sonic arrow on Deadshot to incapacitate him, when he knows for a fact that Floyd isn't blind. He doesn't reserve them exclusively for people with enhanced senses. He also uses things like glue arrows as an opening move, which can stick Matt in place or blind people who catch it. If that happens, Matt will either have to fake being blinded like he did against Hawkeye in which case the arrow will still get the same result, or carry on anyway and then his blindness will be given away, and Ollie will use a sonic arrow.

But did he open with a sonic arrow though?. Regardless, Ollie already knows how dangerous Deadshot is with his guns so he was probably not taking any chances. Now I am not saying he will underestimate Matt or anything, but he is far more likely to open up with sonic arrows against the world's deadliest marksman with long and faster weaponry as compared to a guy dressed as a devil, with no apparent long range weaponry and someone he knows nothing about.

Matt is a better melee fighter, sure, but Ollie isn't an idiot. He'll recognize that he's outmatched in that area and do his best to create distance between the two, in order to utilize his advantages. And considering the fight takes place in a city, Oliver can grapple up on buildings which Matt will have to climb, in order to get the high ground. He can keep doing this whilst firing trick arrows whilst Daredevil tries to get to his position. (Definitely not a copy of a post I made a few minutes ago.)

And what makes you think Matt is just going to stand there idly while Ollie aims the arrows at the top of the building, fires them and ascends?. Even if I buy that Ollie can someone shoot arrows while scaling a building, his aim and speed is not going to be the same as it would, if he were grounded. Seriously, one trick shot from the billy club to Ollie's skull will stop him from climbing the building. If you want his trick shot feats, I will happily provide them.

Plus, if Ollie sees somebody running that fast towards him, he'll try and impede his progress with things like electrical and explosive arrows, which have an AOE which Matt can't avoid.

And like I said, Matt is not going to just Leeroy Jenkins his way to closing the gap. He has plenty of buildings to stealth and climb around.

Sure he can react to arrows, but Ollie has used unorthodox tactics against arrow timers like Red Hood and Constantine Drakon.

That's the thing though, Jason and Drakon aren't Daredevil and they don't have his powers to give him nigh superhuman reaction time.

He'll aim for the legs where arrows can't be blocked,

You serious?. And you think Matt can't jump above and even catch the arrow if he feels like it?

and he will use trick arrows and the environment for distraction, all whilst creating more distance between the two

This is a rather vague statement. What trick arrows?. How is he going to get the environment to favour him against a guy who has a 360 degree awareness and enhanced senses?

He's tagged people faster than Matt, so just being an arrow timer isn't enough.

Matt is far more than an arrow timer and what faster people are you talking about?. Drakon, like I said, is faster in combat speed but in reaction time and agility?. What has he done to make him superior?

And here's what happened when Drakon faced Oliver Queen in a close quarters environment, performing a similar feat to what you mentioned Daredevil can do later in your post.

A flashbang arrow isn't going to work on Matt for obvious reasons and before you bring up the Hawkeye fight (where Matt pretended to be blind), understand that he was doing it in part to protect his secret identity. Those stipulations have no bearing here and the moment a flashbang arrow is pulled, Matt will just punch his lights out without breaking stride.

And to be frank, I fail to see how the second scans are relevant at all given that Matt is not going to attack him with an open mouth like a doofus. Not that Ollie will be able to tag Matt with that in close quarters anyways.

He's activated trick arrows up close before, and he's also used flechettes as melee weapons and distractions for doing other things up close. I can provide scans for those if you'd like.

Nice, but rapid fire spamming projectiles did not save people like Bullseye from getting beaten up in close quarters so Ollie isn't going to fare any better.

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#34 Posted by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh* I knew people will blindly vote for Daredevil without posting any convincing arguments. The only one who made an effort so far is @brucerogers...

To be fair, this battle has hardly started. The Daredevil experts have yet to come :P

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#35 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

A flashbang arrow isn't going to work on Matt for obvious reasons

It actually will work, reason being that flashbangs don't only blind you but also make your ears ring, which is, as we all know, Matt's Achilles's Heel.

Also:

Matt is not going to just Leeroy Jenkins his way to closing the gap.

That made me lol =P

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#36 Posted by foxerdes (9953 posts) - - Show Bio

Week ago I'd be willing to say that Matt take it but feats against Constantine Dakon combined with trick arrows are really convincing. Can't wait for Daredevil experts.

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#37 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

*sigh* I knew people will blindly vote for Daredevil without posting any convincing arguments. The only one who made an effort so far is @brucerogers...

To be fair, this battle has hardly started. The Daredevil experts have yet to come :P

Well 22 votes is a decent number already IMO. But you do have a point with this.

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#38 Edited by BruceRogers (17165 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Ollie can very easily shoot and intercept Daredevil's clubs mid-flight:

That's a great feat for him sure, but Matt has tagged people like Cap and Iron Fist with trick shots and these two are bona fide bullet timers. Heck, Danny has caught a bullet with his barehands from behind and even he was tagged by the billy club. Why is Ollie going to get lucky all of the sudden?

Especially when DD can do this with his billy club. And keep in mind that that guy in question, Dominic Destine, had move reading abilities better than Matt himself.

And although he won't necessarily use a sonic arrow for his opening move, he has a plethora of other arrows he can use for a very easy win:

Cool feats, but the problem is, that they Matt is not going to be corned to a wall for stuff like the glue arrow to work. The rest also can be averted with him just smacking them away, jumping above them or using the environment for cover.

And you think a mere net arrow is going to stop someone who can do THIS?

In the first one he shows that he is faster on the draw than Deadshot (Deadshot pulled his guns before Ollie pulled his arrows out of his quiver, but he still fired before Deadshot did, which forced Deadshot to shoot his arrows out in mid air instead of shooting Ollie himself), and in the second he fires 2 arrows so that the tail of the first is in line with the head of the second. If I calculate this feat it will show that Ollie can fire faster than a machine gun, but I won't do it because that's BS.

And on top of all that, if Matt somehow DOES cross those 30 meters and gets to Ollie, which is borderline impossible, Ollie will understand that he's physically outmatched and use a zipline arrow to go on top of a building or something:

See the thing is, Matt isn't going to exchange fire with him. He is going to use his radar sense and agility to navigate around the city and get to Ollie via stealth or otherwise.

The zipline thing can easily be averted by a billy club throw.

As for this:

It actually will work, reason being that flashbangs don't only blind you but also make your ears ring, which is, as we all know, Matt's Achilles's Heel.

Matt is weak to sound, not his ears ringing on it's own. So this is hardly going to have any discernible effect. Regardless, he has handled gunshot in close range perfectly fine, thanks to his ability to tune out sounds.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (51971 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

That's a great feat for him sure, but Matt has tagged people like Cap and Iron Fist with trick shots and these two are bone fide bullet timers. Heck, Danny has caught a bullet with his barehands from behind and even he was tagged by the billy club. Why is Ollie going to get lucky all of the sudden?

Because neither Danny nor Steve have the means to shoot the clubs out in mid-air. Ollie does and he has reacted to arrows, which move far faster than Matt's clubs.

Cool feats, but the problem is, that they Matt is not going to be corned to a wall for stuff like the glue arrow to work. The rest also can be averted with him just smacking them away, jumping above them or using the environment for cover.

The thing is that Ollie just aims to the floor or something with these arrows. Matt won't know that they are trick arrows, so he thinks he's safe when they hit the floor harmlessly beside/in front of him, but then all of a sudden - BOOM. Explosive arrow goes off, tear gas starts spreading and suffocating him, an electric field zaps him, etc. He might be able to counter one or two specific arrows like the net arrow but Oliver has tons of different arrows which he always carries around in-character and he can fire them blindingly fast.

See the thing is, Matt isn't going to exchange fire with him. He is going to use his radar sense and agility to navigate around the city and get to Ollie via stealth or otherwise.

Except Ollie can spot him if he tries to use stealth:

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And his agility won't save him from explosives, gas, sonic and many other trick arrows that Ollie can use.

The zipline thing can easily be averted by a billy club throw.

The billy club can easily be shot down.

Matt is weak to sound, not his ears ringing on it's own. So this is hardly going to have any discernible effect. Regardless, he has handled gunshot in close range perfectly fine, thanks to his ability to tune out sounds.

Flashbangs are meant to stun, both by blinding and by deafening. It's gonna affect Mat for sure, especially since he wouldn't know to expect it to be a trick arrow in the first place.

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#42 Posted by HigherPower (12175 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt wins if GA is stupid enough to come into melee range, in which he could just beat him down physically. Ollie could put him down if he keeps his distance

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#43 Posted by StormShadow_X (16302 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver literally has to reach his limits fighting DD and to pull a win but DD's entire skillset and abilities are straight counters for his own. Even with Oliver's own AOE arrows and various trick arrows are all only going to be completely useful if he has knowledge beforehand. He'd auto win with a Sonic arrow but wouldn't know he needs it, a Explosive Arrow could do the trick but Ollie won't just outright kill him and refuse to use that force, and before Ollie realizes he needs to try being a bit more aggressive Matt is already in his face with superior h2h skills and pressure points.

I'd argue Oliver has never really gone against someone like Matt while one of Matt's enemies have a very similar skill set and is arguably more deadly in some areas. When matt closes the distance Oliver can't do much to get his one advantage back and will be down in a matter of seconds. Now I love Ollie but Matt is not only a class above him but a great counter to the skills of a Archer.

Daredevil 8/10

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#44 Edited by HigherPower (12175 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: oh yea forgot that you lock them anyways

my bad

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#45 Edited by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x said:

Oliver literally has to reach his limits fighting DD and to pull a win but DD's entire skillset and abilities are straight counters for his own. Even with Oliver's own AOE arrows and various trick arrows are all only going to be completely useful if he has knowledge beforehand. He'd auto win with a Sonic arrow but wouldn't know he needs it, a Explosive Arrow could do the trick but Ollie won't just outright kill him and refuse to use that force, and before Ollie realizes he needs to try being a bit more aggressive Matt is already in his face with superior h2h skills and pressure points.

I'd argue Oliver has never really gone against someone like Matt while one of Matt's enemies have a very similar skill set and is arguably more deadly in some areas. When matt closes the distance Oliver can't do much to get his one advantage back and will be down in a matter of seconds. Now I love Ollie but Matt is not only a class above him but a great counter to the skills of a Archer.

Daredevil 8/10

Ollie uses explosives all the time. He has many low-yield, non-lethal explosives. Ollie uses non-lethal trick arrows as an opening move ALL THE TIME, and it isn't only limited to explosives and sonic arrows, but also tear gas, knockout gas, electric, cryonic and others.

Green Arrow 9/10 =)

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#46 Posted by StormShadow_X (16302 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I never said he only had those arrows but I don't feel he'll use them before DD closes the distance, not to mention most of those arrows he'll dodge. The only one that you mentioned that could cause some trouble is the knock out gas which DD will defiantly be on the move to dodge . Ollie is a master archer but like I said I feel he's going against an opponent whose own skillset and meta human powers counter his own hard.

Could I get some scans of Oliver starting with one of his battles with a completely new adversary that he knows nothing about with one of his non lethal Explosive arrows?

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#47 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

You say he tagged Drakon using that aforementioned tactic and claim it will be successful with Matt because Drakon is faster than Matt. I mean sure, I can agree on the faster part in terms of combat speed maybe, but Matt has better agility feats and has a better reaction time, thus affording him better avoidance.

Matt is far more than an arrow timer and what faster people are you talking about?. Drakon, like I said, is faster in combat speed but in reaction time and agility?. What has he done to make him superior?

I've provided some arrow timing feats to go along with that. The point is that Ollie can tag people who are easily fast enough to react to arrows normally.

You are also neglecting the fact that given that they are fighting in a city, Matt has tons of options for stealth or cover.

The city setting favours Ollie much more than it does Matt. With the building he can make it to the top of, more room to fire arrows and less cover.

I am also not following on how Ollie will figure out his blindness either

He doesn't have to, but he will if Matt doesn't fake being blinded by things like the glue arrow. He could also pull a Hawkeye and use a magnesium arrow.

But did he open with a sonic arrow though?. Regardless, Ollie already knows how dangerous Deadshot is with his guns so he was probably not taking any chances. Now I am not saying he will underestimate Matt or anything, but he is far more likely to open up with sonic arrows against the world's deadliest marksman with long and faster weaponry as compared to a guy dressed as a devil, with no apparent long range weaponry and someone he knows nothing about.

He didn't start with it. I'm saying that claiming Oliver won't use a sonic arrow if he doesn't know his opponent is blind is a moot point, because he's already used it on opponents with sight.

And what makes you think Matt is just going to stand there idly while Ollie aims the arrows at the top of the building, fires them and ascends?

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There's a starting distance of 100 foot, and Ollie has pretty insane firing speed.

Even if I buy that Ollie can someone shoot arrows while scaling a building, his aim and speed is not going to be the same as it would, if he were grounded. Seriously, one trick shot from the billy club to Ollie's skull will stop him from climbing the building. If you want his trick shot feats, I will happily provide them.

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Ollie doesn't have to manually climb. He activates the grapple and gets pulled to the top automatically. The force of a billy club throw isn't going to be enough to make him let go either, seeing as how he's tanked hits from Solomon Grundy and a bloodlusted Deathstroke.

And like I said, Matt is not going to just Leeroy Jenkins his way to closing the gap. He has plenty of buildings to stealth and climb around.

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Green Arrow carries mapping arrows to detect people doing stealth. This tactic won't work.

That's the thing though, Jason and Drakon aren't Daredevil and they don't have his powers to give him nigh superhuman reaction time.

But they have insane reaction time anyway, so the end result is the same. They aren't exactly the same as Daredevil, but if you dismiss this based on that, then we also have to disregard Daredevil tagging people with his billy clubs because those people aren't exactly the same as Green Arrow.

You serious?. And you think Matt can't jump above and even catch the arrow if he feels like it?

Jumping over an arrow after it's been fired is much harder than it sounds. As far as I'm aware, Matt has no feats of doing this.

This is a rather vague statement. What trick arrows?. How is he going to get the environment to favour him against a guy who has a 360 degree awareness and enhanced senses?

Ollie is a surprisingly good tactician. He'll do things like electrocute the ground, blow up cars, set traps and things like that to keep his opponent at a distance. Matt doesn't have a counter to things like AOE electrical arrows and sleeping gas arrows.

A flashbang arrow isn't going to work on Matt for obvious reasons and before you bring up the Hawkeye fight (where Matt pretended to be blind), understand that he was doing it in part to protect his secret identity. Those stipulations have no bearing here and the moment a flashbang arrow is pulled, Matt will just punch his lights out without breaking stride.

If Matt doesn't fake being blinded, then Ollie will just sonic arrows like he has up close before. He needs to do it for more than just his secret identity. It's not like Ollie will be one-shotted.

And to be frank, I fail to see how the second scans are relevant at all given that Matt is not going to attack him with an open mouth like a doofus. Not that Ollie will be able to tag Matt with that in close quarters anyways.

I'm just pointing out that Ollie uses arrows for more than just range. They're a part of his fighting style, and he's good at improvising.

Nice, but rapid fire spamming projectiles did not save people like Bullseye from getting beaten up in close quarters so Ollie isn't going to fare any better.

Ollie is completely different to Bullseye. He does this whilst creating more distance, rather than as a distraction up close.

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#48 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a fun discussion so far.

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#49 Edited by the_red_viper (12566 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I never said he only had those arrows but I don't feel he'll use them before DD closes the distance, not to mention most of those arrows he'll dodge. The only one that you mentioned that could cause some trouble is the knock out gas which DD will defiantly be on the move to dodge . Ollie is a master archer but like I said I feel he's going against an opponent whose own skillset and meta human powers counter his own hard.

Could I get some scans of Oliver starting with one of his battles with a completely new adversary that he knows nothing about with one of his non lethal Explosive arrows?

Here are some non-lethal explosives:

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He used them against normal humans, so he wouldn't have risked a lethal explosive. There's more if you want.

And he opens with trick-arrows all the time, not limited only to explosives. See post 30 in this thread. The gas can't really be dodged, as you can see in post 30 it needs only to pass by him for a split second in order to do the trick. Also the tear-gas spreads across a very large area, and he can fire a bunch at once.

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#50 Posted by comicace3 (12429 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt surpasses ollie in almost every category. The only thing that Ollie has going for him is gear which I don't see DD having a problem of dodging at all.