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Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) 2 years, 6 months ago

Poll: Battle of the Week: Darth Vader vs Midnighter (59 votes)

Darth Vader (Disney) 63%
Midnighter (New 52) 34%
Too close to call 3%

This Christmas time match up is between the Dark Lord of Disney against the Murder Machine of the current DC Comics.

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Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter (no prep for either side) and both characters have standard gear.
  • This is Canon Vader vs the current New 52 Midnighter.
  • They're fighting in a generic city setting. They're in a 2x2 block area which is unpopulated, but everything around that section is full of civilians and both characters are aware of this. It takes place during the day and they start roughly 200 feet apart and visible. Everything in the city (let's say the city is the size of Manhattan and surrounded by ocean) is on limits.
  • This thread will be locked at the end of the week
  • Please keep in mind that I will be reading the thread so make sure to debate within forum rules (I really don't want to hand out warnings)
  • Incapacitation, knockout, or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too. "What's a tactical retreat?" It's leaving the fight with the intention of not returning to the battle in the immediate future. Going to another spot in the environment to catch your breath for a moment or two or for a tactical advantage is not a tactical retreat. No BFR
  • Treating everyone else in the debate with respect is a sign of a good debater. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. This is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging about fan fic.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs.
  • Votes last till Friday, and the votes will be posted in the OP to see where combatants stand by Friday. Votes do not determine who wins, only who the majority at the time sides with.

Special thanks to @k4tzm4n for allowing me and other users to continue making these battle of the week threads

Happy Holidays Comicvine.

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#1 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

FTR, I am merely posting this battle. I am not the brains behind it lol. That said I am participating as in this as well. Have fun with this one.

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#2 Edited by deactivated-o78sdg008 (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

Great to see Midnighter here. I am backing Vader at the moment (telepathy and range is the perfect counter for Midnighter), but open to arguments for Midnighter. Let's see, hoping for some great posts.

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#3 Edited by touma (1756 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I was hoping it's wildstrom one.

Does midnighter is allowed doors . (if yes he got this fair and easy).

If no doors.

its really hard to call but I think Midnighter hot this .

well his battle computer will tell him what vader power ability is. Midnighter will doge all light saber attack thx to his battle computer, skill, speed, . but I doubt he can attack forced based attack , but that's where his heigh durability comes in . and if midnighter is some how wounded he got a healing factor.

now I highly doubt vader can tank much of midnighter.

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#4 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@touma: He has doors. Though feats only for New 52 with Doors is applicable. Just as only Canon TK feats for Vader is.

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#6 Posted by Gracetrack (4684 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm thinking Vader. Would like to see some arguments for Midnighter.

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#7 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a good BOW thread, I'll drop some scans and arguments for Midnighter tomorrow.

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#8 Edited by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

:)

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#9 Posted by Tyger (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Vader get his Rogue One scene?

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#10 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Vader get his Rogue One scene?

It would be canon.

@lvenger said:

This is a good BOW thread, I'll drop some scans and arguments for Midnighter tomorrow.

Im looking forward to it.

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#11 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I will drop some Vader bombs, as I feel this is easy Vader's fight to win.

First up, we have the stats. Vader is damn strong in canon.

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Vader one hands and breaks the neck with one hand a soldier. A "meh" feat.

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Vader strength is such to slap or at the least hold steady the force of tank shell like force from the heavy blasters of star ships and tanks.

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We also seen him rip out many inches of steel restraints fine.

He is extremely durable.

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In both examples in canon, he has tons of wreckage fall on him only to climb out like a boss.

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Vaders armor can tanks even Lightsaber strikes with minimal damage, and the explosive AOE blasters of a AT AT walker.

Real argument is speed. I dont see Mids being able to deal with Vader's speed. Vader has not only raw speed, but precog, and insane skill to back it.

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He is a blur to sight, and with regularity slaps away blaster bolts, easily bullet speed projectiles, like nothing.

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Another canon feat of straight super speed beyond a human while slapping away multiple more blaster bolts.

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So fast that he can calculate incoming fire, and accurately smack it back at the firing targets.

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Same story here only slapping away dozens of high claiber blaster bolts away.

This is raw combat speed and reaction speed. Not even tacking on the precog Vader has.

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As seen in this speed feat yet again, Vader can anticipate each shot well before it reaches him, and where to hit it back.

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As a kid, its flat out stated in the film he can see things before they happen. A common Jedi Trait.

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Luke shows this as well when Kenobi blinds him, but Luke is able to predict each shot before it happens.

Finally add in the insane skill over Midnighter.

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Its stated in canon that Jedi lightsaber forms and combat is the pinnicle of all other known sword arts we would know, wrapped up in their seven forms.

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Anakin was one of the top tier duelist of his era. He is that knowledgeable and good. Vader was still top tier as a duelist, and customize his Djem So style to fit the limitations of his suit pretty well.

So in a fair straight up fight, Vader more than matches, and one sided considering his weapon of choice, the Lightsaber, which allows him to cut through almost anything with ease, that alone should allow Vader the clear winner. Still, Vader has one more major weapon in his arsenal. TK. That the final nail in the coffin.

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Seriosuly, he uses TK all the time. Abuses it really. He can disarm Mids like Luke here. Mess with Mids gear like these soldiers and their grenade pins. He can simply ragdoll like the Storm Troopers.

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Thats not taken into account his TK strength either. Able to stall and attack the joints of a AT AT, or lift and toss aside two AT ST walkers with ease.

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Not to mention his fav move, Force Choke.

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And no, the move is not slow at all. He can snap necks like twigs in a split second. Instant win.

Thats GG. There is really nothing Mids has here to win this IMO.

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#12 Edited by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I wasnt going to get involved but there are some things here. Darth Vader lifting someone off their feet and choking them is not at all an impressive feat of strength when compared to midnighter ripping someone's entire head off and spine out when in a similar situation. Strength is not how vader wins this fight.

Vader's durability is nice, but how can you claim his armor can take lightsaber strikes when one of the most important moments in his struggle with luke, and Luke's own personal struggle, is him getting his arm cut off while wearing his armor? Sure he can take explosions and walk out of rubble, but not only can midnighter do that too, midnighter would be hitting him with blows that have felled characters* who take punches from planet movers. Durability is not how vader wins this fight.

Vader may be a bullet timer but midnighter takes it to the extreme. He's danced through walls of bullets shot by the expert marksman deadshot, without effort. And you attempt to separate his speed from his precog so you can take his feats and say "oh but on top of that he can see things before they happen so hes even faster", but that's already a part of why he's able to perform the speed feats he does. The image from the comic you posted nearly gets it right, but the movie says it best, "he can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes". You don't get to double dip on his speed, it's mainly due to his precog, not a wholly separate ability. Midnighter on the other hand is superhumanly fast, can be even faster (up to flash levels briefly), and has precog as a separate ability granting him additional benefits (and his precog is far more comprehensive than vaders). Speed and precog are not how vader wins this fight.

Vader may be very skilled, but "insane skill over midnighter" is a mr fantastic level reach. You can reference lightsaber skill being the pinnacle of known sword arts, but the problems with that are obvious. It's not inherently better than what Midnighter can bring to the table because he's not using sword arts first of all, and second of all nothing about him is known in the star wars universe for a comparison to even begin. Midnighter's skills and abilities have him making short work of whole teams of enemies who individually were able to match or beat nearly every member of the bat family. That's a huge amount of skill. Even in his own universe, Vader's skills couldn't stand up to Luke's minimal skill and abundant rage. Skill is not how Vader wins this fight.

Vader's best shot of winning this is with his telekinesis, but im not going to do your work for you...not yet anyway. :p

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#13 Posted by HigorM (8929 posts) - - Show Bio

oh boy this gonna be gud

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#14 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshotwashere: Get involve, this is a clear win for Vader, and not sure why this battle was pushed.

Darth Vader lifting someone off their feet and choking them is not at all an impressive feat of strength when compared to midnighter ripping someone's entire head off and spine out when in a similar situation. Strength is not how vader wins this fight.

I agree. Just saying he has strength beyond peak human levels.

Vader's durability is nice, but how can you claim his armor can take lightsaber strikes when one of the most important moments in his struggle with luke, and Luke's own personal struggle, is him getting his arm cut off while wearing his armor?

Thats easy, his armor is just like any other. The wrist area is not plated and more glove. The Plates themselves only extend to portions of the body. The rest of the suit is just a suit, and relies on Vader's force enhance durability.

Sure he can take explosions and walk out of rubble, but not only can midnighter do that too, midnighter would be hitting him with blows that have felled characters* who take punches from planet movers. Durability is not how vader wins this fight.

Can you show me Midnoghter lifting strength, or a quantifiable striking feat? Saying he hit planet movers is pretty ABC logic. At least my feats are quantifiable and stand alone. What does Midnighter's stand alone feats look like in strength limits?

Vader may be a bullet timer but midnighter takes it to the extreme. He's danced through walls of bullets shot by the expert marksman deadshot, without effort. And you attempt to separate his speed from his precog so you can take his feats and say "oh but on top of that he can see things before they happen so hes even faster", but that's already a part of why he's able to perform the speed feats he does. The image from the comic you posted nearly gets it right, but the movie says it best, "he can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes". You don't get to double dip on his speed, it's mainly due to his precog, not a wholly separate ability. Midnighter on the other hand is superhumanly fast, can be even faster (up to flash levels briefly), and has precog as a separate ability granting him additional benefits (and his precog is far more comprehensive than vaders). Speed and precog are not how vader wins this fight.

Are half these feats Wildstorm ones and not New 52? I seriously dont know. Regardless, nothing her speed wise is all that more impressive to Vader. Vader has the higher skill and precog too which makes him better in reaction and combat speed. Thats how comics work. Someone with enough skill can compete with someone who is faster. Precog closes the speed gap in comics as well. Vader has speed, precog, and skill. He should be faster in terms of reacting and gettng hits in.

Vader may be very skilled, but "insane skill over midnighter" is a mr fantastic level reach. You can reference lightsaber skill being the pinnacle of known sword arts, but the problems with that are obvious. It's not inherently better than what Midnighter can bring to the table because he's not using sword arts first of all, and second of all nothing about him is known in the star wars universe for a comparison to even begin.

Why is any skill from Midnighter, who by the way is very obscure in skill knowledge by statements/feats, topping the Echani styles, Mandolorian styles, or hundreds of Martial Arts from the hundreds of races in SW universe? Vader/Anakin has fought dozens of foes with their own martial arts and fighting arts, and never fumbled against them.

Midnighter's skills and abilities have him making short work of whole teams of enemies who individually were able to match or beat nearly every member of the bat family.

Like who? I only know of the Manhunter and Prometheus fights.

That's a huge amount of skill. Even in his own universe, Vader's skills couldn't stand up to Luke's minimal skill and abundant rage. Skill is not how Vader wins this fight.

I believe so, since Vader more than competes in speed, precog, skill, and has a lightsaber that Midnighter cannot tank or block at all in any way.

Vader's best shot of winning this is with his telekinesis, but im not going to do your work for you...not yet anyway. :p

Fair enough, I am really curious who New 52 Midnighter ever fought of relevance. He tried to cheap shot Manhunter, and failed. He had issues with Prometheus who Vader would stomp easy. Other than those two fights I never seen anyone mention or post Mids fighting anyone else of note. So Midnighter fans need to drop knowledge bombs while the match is early still.

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#15 Edited by Nima_ (2104 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader casually swats away laser blasts with his saber. I think that is enough of a reflex to catch Midnighter with some TK then dicing him up from there.

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#16 Posted by Warlockmage (9390 posts) - - Show Bio

I know relatively little about all these characters... cant wait to see how this one turns out

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#17 Posted by i_like_swords (26271 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it'd be a little more interesting if you used Legends Vader.

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#18 Posted by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Maybe I'll fool around for a little, give people things to work with.

Conceding that his armor is "just like any other" opens up a lot of problems for Vader. Midnighter is capable of seeing and exploiting weaknesses and things like unprotected wrists, breathing apparatus tied to the mask, and regulatory tech on the outside of his armor are all obvious weaknesses. The usefulness of these sort of exploits should also be clear. For example, you claim Midnighter can't block a lightsaber in any way, but does he have to block a lightsaber when he can easily break the hand that wields it? (And before you go to using the lightsaber with the force, I'll remind you I said the force was his best bet.) General durability is nice, but Midnighter doesn't just generally attack. He is very good at hitting specific targets for a greater effect. It's how he'd do something like take down multiple opponents with a single thrown tooth.

I didn't say he hit planet movers, I said he hit significantly affected people who have been hit by planet movers. That's not ABC logic, their own strength doesn't matter, it's their durability, which has been tested against characters who can move planets, and despite that Midnighter was still able to do damage. Since you bring up Martian Manhunter, he actually didn't fail in any sense that matters here. He was going to to hit Manhunter in the face so he could break a bone that would go into his brain. He did actually hit Manhunter, he did actually break a bone, and Manhunter reports not only that it hurt but that Midnighter was correct. MM moved his brain so he wouldn't die, but in terms of Midnighter being able to discern the weakness and apply enough force to break Martian Manhunter's bones, he was more than capable. I think hurting MM, bloodying him, and breaking his bones, is a fairly straight forward striking feat for Midnighter (in addition to a demonstration of his ability to see and exploit weaknesses). I think exerting enough force to break a roof just by jumping off it also demonstrates strength, as does kicking someone up through one floor of a building into another, or flipping a loaded monster truck into the air. But again, and this is a thing I see a lot of people not getting about Midnighter, it's not about brute strength, it's about correct use of his strength. And since we're here, let's get on this "he had problems with Prometheus" nonsense. (And by the way, if you want to talk about ABC logic, that's what youre doing when you say he struggled with prometheus who vader would beat.) I'm not here to explain every one of Midnighter's fights (except that's what I always have to do), but Midnighter had "trouble" with Prometheus because he was jacked up with Midnighter's tech and Mr. Teriffic's skin that makes him immune to all surveillance, so Midnighter was fighting him without any of his extra senses or combat computer. Despite that, and the fact that on top of his physical upgrades and not being able to feel pain, Prometheus was rocking the fighting skills of Midnighter himself, Shiva, Batman, Karate Kid's ancestor, and 26 more of the world's best fighters, Midnighter still beat him. They exchanged blows and destroyed a house in their fight, but Midnighter brutalized him and left him on his knees broken and beaten. (And when Prometheus tried to talk some more trash Midnighter went back over and finished him.) Prometheus had to take away Midnighters main power, upgrade his own body to the extreme, steal Midnighter's fighting skills, and he still lost handily. It's always funny to me that people always say Midnighter never has real fights (because he beats people so easily) and that's bad, but then he has a nice knock down drag out fight (like every other character in comics has) and then suddenly it's used in attempt to downplay his abilities. Midnighter did work on Prometheus even with an extreme disadvantage.

I don't really need to post images but I so rarely do anymore so what the heck...

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No, those speed feats I mentioned were not Wildstorm feats, though it really shouldn't matter since current Midnighter and wildstorm Midnighter's feats are very much in line with each other. The above (and below) are from his recently finished solo series. Let's stick with speed a second before I touch on precog and skill. Someone with skill might be able to catch up to someone with speed, and precog can be used to close the gap, but Midnighter has all three and to a higher degree than Vader. Vader may be a blur to a normal person, but Midnighter is a blur to superhumans. Hell, sometimes hes beyond that, moving fast enough to not even be seen moving. Descriptions of Vader make him blur, but descriptions of Midnighter leave him compared to the Flash. He's so fast he can vibrate objects apart between the blinks of his enemies. He's so fast he can tell a speedster what he's about to do and he still won't get stopped. That's not a level of speed Vader is on. As for precog, as mentioned Vader can see things before they happen, but Midnighter sees not just what's about to happen but all the way down the line. His precog goes further and is more comprehensive than Vaders. So if Midnighter has greater speed, and precog can close the gap, but he ALSO has greater precog, doesn't that just mean he's made the gap even bigger? Yup. All Vader has to even approach this gap, (cuz there's no way he's closing it) is with his skills, but his skills weren't enough for him to outmaneuver a relatively unskilled Luke Skywalker. As for Midnighter's skill, skill in general is a thing im wary of talking about because it's so much more nebulous that something like strength or speed, but going by the general measures we use in comics (who you've beat, how others rank you, etc) Midnighter does very well. Going back to Prometheus, Midnighter is listed among the best fighters on the planet, alongside Batman and Shiva. They even went so far as to name drop Karate Kid as best they could and a real life karate master known for creating the most influential style of full contact karate and one-shotting bulls in fights with his bare hands. There's not much more that could be done to vet Midnighter than to put him along side the very best, except oh wait, he also went on to beat Prometheus even with that murderers row of elite fighters in his head, and he did it without his combat computer. Vader's skills aren't closing that gap built of speed, precog, and skills.

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No real reason to post that, I just like it. Perhaps it addresses your question of who Midnighter has fought with a name (though why they need a name or a rep is beyond me) with a few more examples. Don't remember the names of the characters Midnighter beat (who each had matched or beaten a member of the bat family), but I THINK it was in Batman and Robin Eternal or something like that.

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#19 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshotwashere: well the match is way more even then in stats and skill. I will give credit due there. Just that pesky TK winning it for Vader then.

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#20 Posted by Monmouth (207 posts) - - Show Bio

Buck is a Legend around these parts

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#21 Posted by blackpantherisb (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader TK one shots could prolly win just with light saber combat here to having stomped high level Jedi knights

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#22 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Midnighter ever faced opponents with TK?

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#23 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Midnighter ever faced opponents with TK?

I heard he has once in the PM when people were trying to find a match up vs him.

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#24 Edited by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_templar: unfortunately he doesn't have too many examples with that. He does have one though and it's not bad and actually opens up another aspect of his character (though it's usefulness here is fairly limited). I'd just post it but now I'm on my phone so that's a slight hassle so nah.

In brief, what happens is midnighter, handcuffed to dick Grayson, confronts an enemy with tk (among other powers I believe) after fighting their way to the middle of their compound. They attack and get telekinetically thrown through the roof. Midnighter reveals that that was his plan all along because there was tech jamming some of his powers (his doors iirc) and he made it so when the guy used his tk, midnighter would get thrown where he wanted, through the jamming tech, so that he could door right back in and take the guy down.

So he faced a guy with tk but didn't counter it so much as use it in his own favor to take the guy down. I think darth vader would be much harder to manipulate into something like that, but I also think something exactly like that isn't necessary. Going off his appearances, it's pretty likely that vader wouldn't kill midnighter right off the bat. Oh, he's willing to, but a lot of times he simply tosses people, throws them into things, hits them with things, chokes them, or, when he does kill them, does things that wouldn't be fatal to midnighter like it would to others. I think midnighter's manipulative and deceptive side would come into play. It would be fully within his ability and character to simply play dead when he isn't and use vader's momentarily lowered guard to end him quickly.

Edited to add: He does something similar to this when he fights a character who can see 5 seconds into the future. He goes the whole fight on the defensive, acting like he's getting beaten down hard and letting his enemy think hes winning, then at the end reveals that he was letting the guy hit him exactly where he (midnighter) wanted, so not only would the guy wear himself out, but he'd be hurting himself on parts of midnighter's armor he'd secretly beefed up, and then midnighter wrecks him.

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#25 Posted by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: happy to provide a little information to make a fight more interesting. and you seem alright, think I'll remember your name.

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#26 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: happy to provide a little information to make a fight more interesting. and you seem alright, think I'll remember your name.

It's CadenceV2's alt, no wonder he seems memorable lol.

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#27 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Could you still manage to make an argument for canon Vader?

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#28 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43457 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#29 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter's battle computer can enable him to compete with Vader's lighsaber skills, his physicals can compete with Vader's and he has used doors against TKers, albeit not one nearly as good as Vader. Midnighter has faced a few beings more out of his weight class than Vader like The United, a guy moving nearly as fast as the Flash and Prometheus who had several of the best fighters' skills in the DCU in his head. Plus Midnighter can take a hit to put himself in position to deal crippling damage to his opponent and if Vader's life support systems are damaged or destroyed, he has to use the Force to survive which limits the use of offensive force abilities. Midnighter has a chance of getting in the right position to defeat Vader.

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#30 Posted by Warlockmage (9390 posts) - - Show Bio

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

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#31 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

And SirfizzWhizz said Vader wasn't a mainstream character lol.

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#32 Posted by Warlockmage (9390 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@warlockmage said:

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

And SirfizzWhizz said Vader wasn't a mainstream character lol.

well too be fair the new comics have been most kind to Lord Vader. his solo series is giving him feat after feat to boost his already nice feat resume. its not unthinkable that he could win im just worried it is a popularity contest in this case

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#33 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:
@warlockmage said:

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

And SirfizzWhizz said Vader wasn't a mainstream character lol.

well too be fair the new comics have been most kind to Lord Vader. his solo series is giving him feat after feat to boost his already nice feat resume. its not unthinkable that he could win im just worried it is a popularity contest in this case

Yeah Vader has the feats and Force power to win, it might just be one of those things where even good arguments and scans can't dissuade prior opinions.

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#34 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@warlockmage said:

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

And SirfizzWhizz said Vader wasn't a mainstream character lol.

Neither is Midnighter, though the new star wars movie does make Vader flavor of the week.

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#35 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (17198 posts) - - Show Bio

@monmouth said:

Buck is a Legend around these parts

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#38 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

wow was not expecting the results to be what they are... thats a blow out

Same here.

Bump

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#39 Posted by blackpantherisb (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader stomps

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#40 Posted by Miss_America_ (1587 posts) - - Show Bio

What stops Vader from restraining him with the force and then throwing his saber at him?

Or just killing him from out of sight like he did to a commander aboard an ISD in one of the comics.