Battle of the Week: Cyber, Gorgon vs Venom, Kaine

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@militaryman: I suppose it is.

mhhh tough match man, mhhhh might, MIGHT be slightly leaning towards team 2.

Gorgon is the deciding factor for this fight here. Tomi has defeated wolverine and Elektra in straight combat with him being on the receiving end of a surprise attack. He has also bested Shang Chi, and cut off Slingshot's (who is a speedster) hands while fighting multiple people. Gorgon has been showcased to slice bullets in half and has displayed lightning fast reflexes and the ability to avoid the detection of Wolverine. Armed with Grasscutter, Tomi could use his vastly superior intellect and strategy to take down (after a grueling fight i'm sure) either kaine or venom. As long as Cyber can stall off until it becomes a 2v1, which I believe he can, this goes in favor of Gorgon and Cyber.

Another very interesting match, we have real beasts on both sides, can't pick a winner right now. I'd like to "hear" what these fine gentlemen have to say first:

@god_spawn@super_soldierxii@pr0metheus@darkseid1006@oreoassassin@serrure@i_like_swords@highaccuser@granitesoldier@cgoodness@frisky4@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek@14nc3@wolverine08@strider92@fallschirmjager

I like to see what @laflux, @ghostravage, @wolverine08, @super_soldierxii, @thenaughtytitan, @jashro44, and @k4tzm4n think.

I appreciate the tag. As for who wins I don't know enough about Cyber. Gorgon beats Kaine but loses to Venom.

Feel free to post any questions you may have about Cyber and I'll answer them when I have time later.

I know he gave Wolverine problems and his adamatium makes him hard to hurt so I guess I'd have to ask what if anything has ever been able to hurt him? Also how strong is he physically? Would he be able to break webs or tendrils?

bump!

cyber shouldn't be in this fight as he is way below venom and kaine. The gorgon also gets beat by both kaine and venom in my opinion.

@prospero_locke: Agent Venom dodged a neigh point blank TANK round, while holding a bystander, and while "weakened"

Gorgon isn't beating A. Venom

@bullet_to_the_head: I wonder how the stone stare would work on Venom. Would it work? Fail? One of my biggest questions.

Gorgon doesn't really win his fights with stone stare in character.

@highaccuser: Still a option.

Not really.

@highaccuser: Sure is.

Cyber doesn't approach kaine or venom in strength. I think at his strongest he is a 10 tonner. He got beat pretty easily by wolverine in that particular suit... I mean I know he gave him a little trouble but nothing to say he would hang with kaine or venom. Is the gorgon faster than either kaine or venom? that's the only reason why I would even give him a chance against them.

Team one wins

Gorgon MVP

Mongoose

What toothpaste does Cyber use? Will buy immediately

Like I said I don't know enough about Cyber. I would say Gorgon is faster than Venom and probably below Kaine in raw speed but has better combat speed due to telepathy.

Hot damn interesting match. Might be leaning slightly towards team 1.

could he use that on venom tho? I think he probably could on kaine but I still don't think that necessarily gives him a win over him. The stone stare is another option but I am not sure that would work on venom either...

@sirfizzwhizz: I don't know, Venom did restice the PS on 2 occation, but I dpn't know if thats PIS or Not

@highaccuser: Venom dodged a Neigh point Tank round while weakened and holding a bystandered

This being said I feel team 2 wins, I'll make a more formal reason once someone does the same.

However I feel Team 2 is going to win the poll because people thinking Stare = Win

@bullet_to_the_head: and gorgon tagged a speedster while fighting 3 other people... not to mention he is wielding a magic sword stained with the blood of Ares and can slice bullets in half. He has displayed the ability to fight multiple enemies with his superhuman reflexes and skills. He fought two of marvels most efficient and lethal assassins... and won.

@bullet_to_the_head: I think Gorgon blitzing Wolverine and Elektra is honestly just a better feat.

@prospero_locke: Dodging Tank Rounds > Slicing Bullets

Venom could beat Logan and Elektra at the same time as well, hell he one shot Captian America, while holding back.

and how fast was said speedster? A Ton of People have tagged Speedster, Peter being one of them.

Team 2. Cyber is a rather large weak link. Honestly Kaine and Eugene can oneshot him.

@juiceboks: they can one shot a guy with Wolverine healing ability, and whole body covered in adamantium? A guy with Adamntium claws dripping poisons that affect wolverine of all people,

Just checking, I'm not a knowledgable guy on Cyber, but what I heard recently he seems nothing short of a weak link.

I remember a handbook entry stated he has superhuman strength, but it didn't specify. He's been shown as stronger than Wolverine - so he's at least low-level superhuman when it comes to strength. That, in addition to the adamantium claws he has on each finger, leads me to believe he'd be capable of breaking out of a moderate amount of webbing, but he'd need to cut and muscle his way out if an excessive amount is used.

While he may not be as strong as Kaine or Venom, I'd argue he's more skilled and his durability is way up there. He's been able to counter Wolverine's attacks multiple times (he once caught Wolverine's wrist after being clawed in the face), was smart enough to know how to get the jump on Daken (IIRC), and his telepathic powers prevent him from stealth attacks... given he isn't already occupied, that is.

As for durability, the guy's been in the middle of an explosion, had a large desk dropped on him from a great height, been hit head-on by a train, walked through Havok's attacks like they're nothing, and has taken plenty of damage to his exposed face (Wolverine's hit him there plenty of times and has never defeated him that way). In fact, the only exposed part are the front of Cyber's neck and his face. Wolverine regularly needed a plot device or a distraction to survive an encounter with Cyber.

@bullet_to_the_head: two quick speed/reaction feats I found. And i'm not 100% sure but I believe that normal rounds travel at a faster muzzle velocity that tank rounds. tank rounds may be able to go farther than some, but im pretty sure the actual speed of the round is slower.

Could Cyber be considered the weak link in this fight? Sure, I could see that, but there's a difference between being "the weak link" and "getting walked all over and easily eliminated." Given his durability, skill/reflexes, and poison/hallucinogens - which Kraven proved will work against Agent Venom - I don't see Cyber getting eliminated very easily. Throw in the fact his partner, Gorgon, is an absolute beast, and I'd say - and will say right now! - the anti-heroes have quite a fight on their hands.

@k4tzm4n:

I remember a handbook entry stated he has superhuman strength, but it didn't specify. He's been shown as stronger than Wolverine - so he's at least low-level superhuman when it comes to strength. That, in addition to the adamantium claws he has on each finger, leads me to believe he'd be capable of breaking out of a moderate amount of webbing, but he'd need to cut and muscle his way out if an excessive amount is used.

If he's only stronger than Wolverine than he might be too weak for the other team. I don't see how adamantium claws could be enough when Wolverine has those but has fallen prey to small amounts of webbing.

While he may not be as strong as Kaine or Venom, I'd argue he's more skilled and his durability is way up there. He's been able to counter Wolverine's attacks multiple times (he once caught Wolverine's wrist after being clawed in the face), was smart enough to know how to get the jump on Daken (IIRC), and his telepathic powers prevent him from stealth attacks... given he isn't already occupied, that is.

As for durability, the guy's been in the middle of an explosion, had a large desk dropped on him from a great height, been hit head-on by a train, walked through Havok's attacks like they're nothing, and has taken plenty of damage to his exposed face (Wolverine's hit him there plenty of times and has never defeated him that way). In fact, the only exposed part are the front of Cyber's neck and his face. Wolverine regularly needed a plot device or a distraction to survive an encounter with Cyber.

I'll be honest I don't think these feats are good enough to tank a punch from Kaine or Agent Venom. Kaine has ripped apart Carnage before with his blows and killed Kraven with one reluctant blow and Venom has feats like lifting tanks. Wolverine uses claws which are a different kind of output than Kaine or Flash's punches.

Well either way here is some scans @jashro44 came across.

Here are some scans I tracked down. I don't have the marvel comics presents issues however, and I just skimmed these issues quickly so let me know if anything is out of context:

Gallery

Gallery

Gallery

Maybe help peak at what Cyber can do.

Team 1.

He's smacked around Strong Guy (and was fine after getting slugged in the face and thrown by him as well; in that same issue he smashed through a wall that appeared to be concrete or a similar material), so I disagree that he's too weak to contend. He's not going to just stand there and try to outmuscle them; he's more skilled and one clean connect with his claws will be a game changer since they're laced with powerful hallucinogens/poisons. Also, only one durability feat had to do with Wolverine's claws and it was to show that it didn't even faze him because he was immediately able to counter. He has a wide array of durability feats (one not listed is Wolverine smacking him in the face multiple times with a large piece of wood) and it's clear he can take a huge degree of punishment, so I don't think either of his opponents swiftly KOing him is probable since they're all in character. Can they if they decide to unleash on his face? Obviously, but I don't see that happening quickly since they aren't bloodlusted here. Just fyi, I'm well aware of what team Spider is bringing to the table - just trying to save you some time so you don't feel the need to provide Kaine/Venom feats. I'm not here to say whether or not Cyber wins against either character he faces; just that I strongly disagree with the idea that he wouldn't pose a challenge/ at least have what it takes to keep them occupied for a fair amount of time.

Gallery

here are some durability scans for gorgon as well. Wolverine tackles him in a jet pack out of a 20+ story building and the land on the ground, and then gorgon immediately gets up and proceeds to manhandle logan.

I agree with @juiceboks: . Cyber has done nothing impressive enough to be able to defeat either Kaine or Flash and Gorgon has nothing to put down Flash for good. Team 2 solidly.

@sirfizzwhizz: Cyber doesn't have a healing factor on par with Wolverine, in fact he doesn't have a healing factor at all (at least none that I can remember). Most of his body is covered in adamantium yes, but his face isn't. One good shot or stab from either Spider man and he's out of the fight. He's also physically inferior in terms of speed by a large margin. He may be slightly more skilled given his military background but that shouldn't matter all that much.

@k4tzm4n: Well I don't know enough to debate the point completely, but based on comments from people who do he's not beating Kaine or Venom.

I feel this could only be settled one way,

CAV!!!! xD but seriously lol a CaV would be great.

Cyber has consistently outdone Wolverine in a straight up fight only really losing to things like battlefield removal or well placed vats of chemicals

and Gorgon has nothing to put down Flash for good. Team 2 solidly.

His sword which killed Wolverine, as in dead dead.

And based on what I've seen, I'd say he's being sold short. Even if he doesn't take a majority over his opponent, all that matters is he keeps them occupied long enough for Gorgon to potentially best his opponent - which is something I'd say he's capable of since Agent Venom isn't immune to cutting/stabbing damage (which is weird since Brock was, but whatever). I'm not saying team Wolverine villains win, I'm just saying anyone who thinks this is an easy win for team anti-heroes should perhaps reread Gorgon and Cyber's showings. And if they don't want to, I'll be happy to answer any Cyber questions. It's understandable since he has so few appearances.

@juiceboks Cyber does have an accelerated healing factor, it's just not the kind that can regrow his eye. It'll heal wounds on his face, but an entire eye is a no-go. I guess the best way to describe it is it's a lot like Deathstroke's. Also, I think one regular hit from either opponent while they're in character to Cyber's face is very unlikely to eliminate him. He wasn't knocked out after a hit right in the face from Strong Guy, after all. Can they knock him out that way? Absolutely. Via one punch? Given his showings and the fact they're in character, I'd say that's unlikely.

While you're right he's weaker and slower than Kaine and Agent Venom, I'd say it's important to take into account how his skill, reflexes, and durability can help make up for that to some degree. Taking into account all of Agent Venom and Kaine's showings - while in character, of course - and Cyber's skill/reflexes/durability, I don't think it's impossible for Cyber to land a slash/stab with his hallucinogenic/poisonous claws. One good connect can make a difference. Even if he doesn't land it - which I think he can - his history of durability feats imply - to me, at least - that he's not being eliminated too quickly. To me, he has one job in the fight: keep someone occupied, because Gorgon's the one with a strong shot at taking a majority over whoever he faces.

TL;DR version: Cyber's slower and weaker, but he isn't slow and weak and he's more skilled than either enemy and his reflexes are solid. The dude's a tank and one hit can make a difference with him. At the very least, he needs to stay in the fight while Gorgon defeats his opponent... and that's something I think he's capable of since everyone's in character. I don't think Cyber would take a majority over Kaine or Agent Venom - they both have ways to incapacitate him as the fight prolongs - but I do believe he would give them a good amount of trouble before he loses. So yeah, I can understand viewing Cyber as technically being the weak link, but I don't think he should be underestimated, either.

Not really. The first fight they had in Wolverine #85 IIRC was even for a while up until Cyber started hallucinating and left. Their second fight was against Bone Claw Wolverine, and even then James still outsmarted and defeated him in the end.

Cyber's main edges over Wolverine come in the form of greater physical strength and a body he can't dent for the most part. Against Kaine or Eugene, that's not enough to hang with him. They both eclipse him in strength, and possess the range advantage to take him out without tagged by the drugged claws.

Sorry man, but you're misremembering both of those fights:

In Marvel Comics Presents, a wolf/dog/whatever saves Wolverine from Cyber. When Cyber falls into a pool of hallucinogens - because of the animal's interference - the substance gets into him and he runs away. (The same stuff made Wolverine freak out as well.) Without the animal, it was likely Wolverine would have suffered a violent defeat because Cyber had the clear edge at that point. In the bone claw fight, Cyber has Wolverine on the floor and at his mercy once again. As Cyber stands over Wolverine, he's then defeated by Zoe, who drops a huge filing cabinet on him from several stories up.

@k4tzm4n Saying he was saved by the wolf implies that Cyber would have clearly taken him down moments later. Cyber may have had the upperhand, but the fight certainly wasn't over right then and there. Same with their second fight, where Cyber abuses his strength advantage and comparable speed to get the upperhand. Let it also be known that James openly admitted being around Cyber makes him uneasy, ever since he tore out his eye years ago and made him go insane. Thereby adding a level of skepticism that makes his showings against James..questionable.

Cyber? Venom? Kaine? All in one fight?

@juiceboks: I said Cyber likely would have won if the wolf hadn't interfered, and based on the comic, that's true - Cyber has the clear edge and Wolverine's struggling desperately, despite having already removed one of Silas' eyes. I also said Cyber had Wolverine at his mercy in the bone claw encounter - that's true as well. In both cases, Wolverine walked away because of an outside factor - not because he found a way to outsmart Cyber, which is what you stated about the second fight. If you'd like me to make scans to show just how terrible things were looking for Logan, I will - I'll buy 'em on ComiXology and make scans of those pages. Now, could Logan have found a way to win in both of those scenarios? Sure, anything's possible. But was victory clearly within Cyber's reach and he had a blatant advantage over Wolverine? Most certainly. At any rate, even if you wish to question his showings against Wolverine, it shouldn't take away from judging his durability, especially since many of those feats are against things other than Wolverine's claws.