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#1 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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This thread is apart of a larger tournament between six ComicVine users. You can read the other debates here:

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. In addition:

  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputedly contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  • A novelization takes precedent over a video game in any places of contradiction.

Each post can take a maximum of 72 hours to respond. Please contact me if you are unable to fulfill the requirement.

Tentatively, there will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 3,750 original characters, the second 7,500, the third 11,250, the fourth 14,750. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher.

The combatants will fight in-character and with morals on, but beyond that they will not hold back and are ready to kill. They start diagonal from each other at 42 meters away in an indestructible 30 meters by 30 meter arena in the grass plains of Lothal.

There will be both a popular vote that will be tallied and converted into 40% of the overall vote. A panel of three "official" judges will also vote and be worth 60% of the overall vote. The winner has the higher total percentage out of 100 possible points.

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#2 Posted by TheEllimist (5 posts) - - Show Bio

elimist saysdecaf ragdollssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

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#3 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post and T4V pls.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

elimist saysdecaf ragdollssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

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#5 Posted by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio

お前はもう死んでいる

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#6 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. I don't know anything about Legacy so expect my opener to be done just as we hit the deadline. I need time to consult an RT.

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#7 Edited by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: You are impressive guy: you didn't know about legacy but you decide to back up one character. Good luck to you !

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#8 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol said:

@arkhamasylum3: You are impressive guy: you didn't know about legacy but you decide to back up one character. Good luck to you !

I didn't choose. Ant arranged the tournament and our characters were chosen for us. Ant wanted to see how we'd do with lack of knowledge and lack of time to make an argument. Plus a low character limit.

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#9 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: I hope you have an arrangement with Ant, you are dangerously close to the limit and haven't posted yet.

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#11 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: I hope you have an arrangement with Ant, you are dangerously close to the limit and haven't posted yet.

Decaf's opening. I was going to open but wanted further time to research and Decaf agreed to open.

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#12 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Let's see if Decaf goes through with it this time :)

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#13 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol said:

@decaf_wizard: Haven't been the deadline cross ?

Well given we've swapped around who's opening around half a dozen times I'm not going to hold it against Decaf that he hasn't posted.
Not to mention Ant has given us an extension of a day.
The rules are kinda irrelevant at this point so neither of us are going to get disqualified by virtue of not posting unless we take 3 extra days to post or something ridiculous like that.

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#15 Edited by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio

HOEKAY HERE WE GO FOLKS

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Saesee Tiin, Jedi Master

OK first I will start this off with just a general overview of the powers and abilities showcased by this Iktotchi Jedi Master. This will serve as a general overview to what he is capable of and where he stands. Legacy is admittedly by far my weakest era, so I will post this before making any official arguments as to who would win or lose

Overall Accolades

Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

- Star Wars Fact File #114

Tiin had one of the strongest force abilities of all the Jedi as of ROTS, reflective of his position on the Jedi Council.

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."
"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Tiin was regarded as among the Jedi Order's best, something which is reaffirmed by Shaak Ti, potentially placing Tiin above her and every Jedi in the temple at that time. This included the likes of Cin Drallig and Serra Keto. Shaak Ti was able to cross blades with General Grievous, take on dozens of Magnaguards, and may have even taken on KF Vader and survived to escape, as there is evidence she crossed blades with him.

"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way." Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her Master. She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked." "And you're in the way of the pad." She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?"
"I'm the
chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

- Revenge of the Sith

Obi Wan also considers Tiin among the Order's best, among the greatest swordsmen have ever produced even when compared to Mace and Kit Fisto. He seemed to consider that group combined above himself and Yoda by a large margin

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

-Revenge of the Sith

Force Sense

Tiin has basically unmatched force senses because of his unique abilities combined with his heritage. His force sense is so expansive he can even fly entirely without star maps or navigation using the force, relying on the galaxy itself to tell where he is

"How to seek out information from the stars themselves, allowing one to astrogate a starship through lightspeed without a nav computer.

-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

His force sense was so good he could get away with flying at lightspeed close to dangerous mass shadows and perceive hyperspace shortcuts

While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows.

-Taken from The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

Precognition/Telepathy

This is the ability that Tiin is noted for and one of his primary abilities that sets him apart, his incredibly powerful mind reading abilities. In his own words:

"When I was a Padawan, many of my fellow students believed that my inherited telepathic abilities gave me an unfair advantage in my education. It is true that I never had difficulty in communicating my thoughts or comprehending the thoughts of others, but I do not believe that this made my education any easier. For unlike my peers, I was a natural receiver of thoughts, a condition that I—not then able to organize incoming thoughts or consistently contain my own deliberations—often considered a hindrance at times, an embarrassment. I will not share details, but allow you to imagine. Had I been raised on Iktotch, where societies are designed to accommodate telepaths, my circumstances still would have been awkward, for my Force sensitivity would have set me apart.

I did my best to seal off my mind from others. I found that I could home in on the minds of specific beings if I maintained eye contact. I also learned to incorporate my abilities during a fight.

In combat, telepaths do have a distinct edge. Even if one fights by instinct and reflex, most cannot stop themselves from emitting monosyllabic thoughts that project their next movement. During my training bouts at the Jedi Temple, my opponents unwittingly revealed their every move, allowing me that crucial fraction of a moment that enabled me to be the one who would remain standing.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Essentially, Tiin was able to use his natural abilities combined with his force abilities to read minds and thoughts, granting him a significant advantage in combat, revealing their every move to him and allowing him to respond accordingly. As said, he receives emitted thoughts he doesn't actively probe the mind of others so this would be a lot more difficult to conventionally deal with than a mental probe, which most force users are passively resistant too anyways.

He can also do this to quite powerful force sensitives, without them knowing what is really going on, as he did to Qui-Gon Jinn himself.

Her big eyes shifted to favor Qui-Gon. "Agree do you, Qui-Gon?"

He bowed his head. "As you say, Master."

Diagonally across the table from Yaddle, Saesee Tiin glanced up and smiled, as if reading Qui-Gon's thoughts.

-Cloak of Deception

He is also capable of more direct telepathy, being able to extend the range of a mental link between two Jedi across the galaxy allowing them to converse

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Furthermore to compliment this, the Iktotchi are all precogs, an ability they usually cannot control except for the force sensitives among them, which of course Tiin is.

Old Republic scouts discovered the Iktotchi some 3,500 years before the Battle of Yavin—and were surprised to find the Iktotchi were waiting for them. Members of this species had an innate form of precognition that allowed them to foresee that the scout ship was coming several weeks before it actually arrived.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Telekinesis

Now Tiin might not have the best feats in this area compared to other more prominent Jedi, but he is certainly no slacker either. Here is tosses a droid four kilometers, while noticing Mace Windu only landed his just short of three

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These were quite large battle droids, as you can see in this scan where Tiin was also lifting one of them. Additionally he was able to catch a homing missile mid flight with force powers, which Mace Windu considered very impressive

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And I was wondering if I should put this in accolades, but Mace Windu and Tinn have always been close friends and peers, in fact the entire comic I was sourcing this from was referencing the broadsword vs the rapier. Speed and Precision vs Strength, which was a debate that Mace was having with Tiin. I recommend you read it, but the main point was that Mace seemed to outright say that Tiin was stronger than him, and established that they were peers through the entire read. In fact Mace was the one who convinced Tiin to even become a Council Member in the first place. Note that I dont say better, or more powerful. Stronger.

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Lightsaber Ability and Physical Abilities

I generally stick these two in the same category because I feel like it and physical abilities tend to affect saber combat the most. So lets begin.

Tiin can move fast enough while deflecting blaster bolts to create afterimages

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Tiin moves fast enough to produce an energy barrier with his lightsaber

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.

Cloak of Deception

Tiin again moves at FTE speeds to block bullets from a dozen shooters

Not far away, Saesee Tiin led another pair of judicials in a charge against a half a dozen terrorists entrenched in a narrow alley between two of the pyramids, his blade a blur of cobalt as it parried bolts and sent blasters flying from outstretched hands.

Cloak of Deception

Tiin is strong enough to pull against a speeder

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Now Tiin doesn't have many outright dueling feats, but he has a lot of accolades as previously mentioned. Too add to his apparently level of parity with Mace, he has sparred with him to a stalemate, re-enforcing that they are general peers as of around the TCW/TPM Era

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#16 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Will most likely respond right before the deadline.

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#19 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

Good opener from decaf. Quite strong and well documenter.

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#20 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

Decaf replied. Sweet change :)

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid post.

T4V and TAEP.

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#22 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

For those who are confused as to why I haven't posted yet it's because I've just started school again and I'm already bogged down by howework. Ant has generously given me an 8 hours extension (which I think is only fair given Decaf was also given an extension) so my post will be up within the coming hours.

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#23 Posted by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Good luck doing a CaV with a character you don't know much about. Hopefully you can pull the W.

@ everyone T4V and Tag for posts

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#24 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Shado Vao vs Saesee Tiin

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My total character count is around 6900 (not including spaces) so it’s well within the limit.

1) The Weakness of Tiin

If I’m being honest, I don’t think this match up his fair at all on Tiin so I’ve given Decaf a decent chance of winning this CaV by not providing Shado’s best arguments.

2) Lightsaber Abilities: Scaling

To start this off I'm going to use a relatively basic scaling chain to place Shado Vao above Tiin in sabers.

A) Lightsaber Abilities: Shado Vao vs Darth Talon

To start off with Shado has an accolade which places him as having not found an equal as of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon in lightsaber combat (link). This would include Darth Talon who he'd met in a previous encounter.

So, in sabers so far, we have Shado Vao>Darth Talon.

B) Lightsaber Abilities: Talon vs Tiin

Tiin and Darth Talon are quite similar in lighsaber combat. Their accolades are incredibly similar, and this gives us a very easy way to compare the two. Tiin is stated numerous times to be one of the best Lightsaber combatants in the order meanwhile Talon is stated to be one of the best duellists in Krayt's Empire (link). Now as to why this is relevant. You may be thinking but Arkham there's no way to compare the two. But there is. Krayt's Empire is directly compared to Malak and Revan's in terms of its power and overall Galactic Influence (link). Now of course Malak's Dark Jedi shared parity with the Jedi in KOTOR as is blatantly obvious by the confrontation between a Dark Jedi and a member of KOTOR's Jedi Order during the first mission in KOTOR (link) and the Jedi are stated to be at their peak in KOTOR.

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Now of course I think there is evidence to the fact that the PT is the Jedi's peak, but this does indeed suggest parity between all 4 factions and any advantage is probably only slight.

So, we have:

PT Jedi=KOTOR Jedi=Malak's Sith Empire=Krayt's Sith Empire.

Now given how similar Talon and Tiin's accolades are and the fact that both Krayt’s Empire and PT Jedi are comparable are I wouldn't say it's to much of a stretch to say Tiin=Talon in sabers.

So overall for Lightsaber Abilties we have Shado>Talon=Tiin.

3) Lightsaber Abilities: Feats

You see unlike Tiin Shado has impressive feats in sabers. He cut through seemingly endless waves of Sith Troopers while hindered by the Sith Temple which is a DS Nexus while Cade engaged in a long confrontation with Krayt. This is incredibly impressive and Tiin doesn't have any feats to compare to this (because he has none in the first place).

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4) Counters/Debunking Tiin

Alright so for this section I will primarily focus on debunking some of the stuff Decaf has posted so far.

A) Overall Accolades

Most of these accolades are fine and solid enough however I do take issue with one of the lines of scaling you tried to pull off.

Tiin was regarded as among the Jedi Order's best, something which is reaffirmed by Shaak Ti, potentially placing Tiin above her and every Jedi in the temple at that time. This included the likes of Cin Drallig and Serra Keto. Shaak Ti was able to cross blades with General Grievous, take on dozens of Magnaguards, and may have even taken on KF Vader and survived to escape, as there is evidence she crossed blades with him.

Yeah sure I guess you could try to scale from Ti based on the fact that Tiin went to confront Sidious and not her but the problem lies in the fact that Ti stated that some of the order and been left behind to mount a defence in case Sidious attacked and the team failed (link) basically not putting all of their best into one mission in case of failure which is actually a much more tactical decision and makes more sense. Furthermore, all Saesee's accolades place him as one of the best Jedi not the best and the only thing to contradict this is Shaak's word but there's context to it. She's trying to reassure Anakin that the team would succeed and of course would exaggerate saying they are the orders best.

B) Force Sense

Tiin has basically unmatched force senses because of his unique abilities combined with his heritage. His force sense is so expansive he can even fly entirely without star maps or navigation using the force, relying on the galaxy itself to tell where he is.

Good for him it's not exactly applicable in combat and won't save him when Shado's kicking his ass in lightsaber combat.

C) Precognition/Telepathy

Essentially, Tiin was able to use his natural abilities combined with his force abilities to read minds and thoughts, granting him a significant advantage in combat, revealing their every move to him and allowing him to respond accordingly. As said, he receives emitted thoughts he doesn't actively probe the mind of others so this would be a lot more difficult to conventionally deal with than a mental probe, which most force users are passively resistant too anyways.

Tiin's supposed advantage isn't nearly as massive as your making out. Sure, he has above average precognition because of his unique telepathic abilities but his precognition is noticably inferior to that of Anakin Skywalker's (I'll get on to why this is relevant in a sec). We know this via statements and scaling. During TPM as you know Anakin races pods and Qui Gon puts his talent down to him being "strong in the force" and him being able to "see things before they happen" which shows Anakin's pod racing talent is purely down to his strength in the force which gave him unnatural precognition. Now according to Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin hadn't joined the Jedi, he still would have been able to "fly rings around Saesee Tiin" which shows Anakin's precognition is significantly better than Tiin's as without any training in the use of his precognition he was still a better flier than Tiin and was able to fly rings around him. Anakin being a better pilot than Tiin is further supported by Obi wan in ANH saying, "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy". So overall Anakin's precognition outclasses Saesee's by a significant margin.

Now on to why this is relevant.

Anakin as of AOTC/Early TCW has better/equal Force Feats than Obi Wan which shows a general level of parity between the two. Now with his superior precognition and his equal Force feats surely Anakin should be the stronger of the two. Wrong! Obi Wan is stated to be stronger (link). This proves that Anakin’s precognition cannot make up the slight gap between the two which considering Anakin’s precognition surpasses Tiin’s it doesn’t bode well for him.

D) Telekinesis

Now Tiin might not have the best feats in this area compared to other more prominent Jedi, but he is certainly no slacker either. Here is tosses a droid four kilometers, while noticing Mace Windu only landed his just short of three.

Good for him. However, you've conveniently omitted the context of this to favour Tiin. Mace notes that it "isn't a competition" indicating he wasn't aiming to beat Tiin which is reinforced by his next line "precision is better than power". Mace wasn't throwing it as far as he could whereas Tiin was. In fact, as you yourself mentioned the comic is basically a debate between the two over precision vs power and Tiin favoured power in the opening exchange which is reinforced by him saying "his strength has never failed him" and that he's "hard headed".

Basically, any scaling from Mace based on this is pointless.

Furthermore, your argument about Saesee being stronger than Mace based on the statement from Mace you provided was also unsatisfactory due to it being once again taken out of context. Mace doesn’t say Saesee is stronger but rather that his strength was needed for the mission. Mace is saying that together their combined fighting styles could win the battle (Saesee’s is more strength oriented meanwhile Mace’s fighting style is more speed oriented with more focus on precision). The entire debate on the broadsword vs the rapier didn’t start because Saesee was stronger lol it started because Mace wanted to convince Saesee using brute strength constantly was not the answer and that his fighting style was better because Saesee adamantly believed strength was the way to win the battle which is reaffirmed by his quote “my strength has never failed me”. The point wasn’t that Saesee is stronger but rather his fighting style is more strength oriented which is reaffirmed by Saesee going to immediately TK an object meanwhile Mace dances around and blocks blaster bolts. The debate was meant to convince the other to change his fighting style not that Saesee being stronger than Mace made him more effective or if Mace being faster than Saesee made him more effective. We have no evidence that Mace is faster or that Saesee is stronger. Mace ultimately decided at the end of the battle that both fighting styles were needed to win the fight which is why he said he needed Tiin’s strength in conjunction with his speed to win the battle.

As for the rest of the rest of Tiin’s TK feats Shado should logically be able them via scaling. Shado sent Cade Skywalker flying with a Force Push (link) and Darth Maladi also did something similar (link) who Shado is at least equal to since he was able to split her Force Lightning with no apparent difficulty (link). While this doesn’t exactly allow me to do much scaling from Cade given Force Pushes don’t exactly show equality it at least proves he isn’t fodder to Cade and given Cade could TK a massive ship (1,2,3,4) with ease Shado should be able to replicate Tiin’s showings as most of them aren’t that impressive.

E) Duelling

Most of this section is fine and as I've already proven Shado's a better lightsaber combatant I don't feel the need to go over each of Tiin's meaningless physical feats (eg: moving like a blur) which average Jedi can replicate but but I want to quickly address one thing.

Now Tiin doesn't have many outright dueling feats, but he has a lot of accolades as previously mentioned. Too add to his apparently level of parity with Mace, he has sparred with him to a stalemate, re-enforcing that they are general peers as of around the TCW/TPM Era.

Sparring is supposed to be impressive? They clashed blades a few times. This proves what exactly? Sparring is not an accurate measure of how well characters do in actual battles lol. And you haven't established that Mace and Tiin are peers.

5) Conclusion

Decaf has done nothing more than provide a mini RT meanwhile I believe I’ve established a relatively decent case for Shado’s superiority.

The ball’s in your court Decaf.

Note: I'm aware some of the stuff isn't sourced and that it just says link in brackets despite me not linking anything but I need to sleep. I'll insert the sources tomorrow. Also I hope the rest of the the links work okay.

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#25 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Good counter, Arkham holds the upper hand, he's established a much better case for Shado than Decaf did for Tiin and actually locked down the majority of Decaf's opening arguments. Obviously the latter can try and counter and recover but if he can't everything Tiin has will be tossed aside, leaving Tiin with nothing.

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#27 Posted by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio

Heh, challenger accepted

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#28 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post from Arkham, with really good counter of decaf points. However, I feel that some scaling are not so strong.

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#29 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

Allow me to go over the Kyle vs Fisto debate first, but then I'll definitely read this.

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#30 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Updated with sourcing for the stuff I missed.

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#31 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio
@xolthol said:

Great post from Arkham, with really good counter of decaf points. However, I feel that some scaling are not so strong.

If you have any glaring issues PM me so it doesn't interfere with the debate.

I'm always willing to discuss them.

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#32 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: You're getting dangerously close to the limit.

Better post soon.

:)

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#33 Posted by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

It's too early to determine who is in the lead. Decaf's openers tend to be rundowns of his character, with the arguing and rhetoric only taking place once the opener is out of the way. This one is definitely going to be interesting though.

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#35 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Just as an update before anyone asks tomorrow about why Decaf hasn't posted it's because he's been given a 24 hour extension.

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#36 Edited by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio

Debunking the Nonsense #1

Ok so I have a few major problems here with your scaling

So, we have:

PT Jedi=KOTOR Jedi=Malak's Sith Empire=Krayt's Sith Empire.

Now given how similar Talon and Tiin's accolades are and the fact that both Krayt’s Empire and PT Jedi are comparable

First of no. Tiin's accolades and Talon's accolades are not similar. Tiin's accolades stretch back across all Jedi before his time, which Talons as far as I am aware do not. Secondly the PT Jedi have significant evidence to prove they are far superior, so this line of scaling doesn't even work

http://web.archive.org/web/20050227222324/http://www.starwars.com:80/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20050305025509/http://www.starwars.com:80/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html
"That the Sith pulled off such a monumental deception back when the Jedi were at their most powerful... Let's just say I am keeping my eyes open for trouble." -Luke Skywalker, Book of the Sith

No Caption Provided

I could continue

Furthermore scaling the power of individual sith from statements about the overall power and influence of Empires doesn't really make sense, as I dont see how this:

The Sith act overtly, making it clear that they rule the Empire and, by extension, the galaxy. Not since the days of Darth Revan and Darth Malak have the Sith ruled so convincely.

Could somehow even begin to relate to Talon's personal power, as it seems to relate to the fact that this compares them in terms of control they could exert over the galaxy, of which Malak's Empire and Krayt's empire had almost complete control. It wasn't comparing the power of every Sith in the two empires whatsoever. Which makes sense, seeing as Malak's goons were incredibly pathetic as a whole, with what maybe a handful of Sith above elite fodder level? Even the most impressive of them was Sion which says a LOT

Furthremore, I would take this:

To start off with Shado has an accolade which places him as having not found an equal as of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon in lightsaber combat (link). This would include Darth Talon who he'd met in a previous encounter.

Much more seriously if they had actually fought for more than thirty seconds, or a clear victor was shown. It was a short burst fight where he was in active retreat and had Jedi around him, pretty much a replica of the first Qui-Gon vs Maul fight, and he didn't seem to get any noticeable advantage in it. Which seems to disprove the very idea of him not finding an kind of equal, because at the absolute BEST thats what you could claim they are, something which is shaky even then.

Yeah sure I guess you could try to scale from Ti based on the fact that Tiin went to confront Sidious and not her but the problem lies in the fact that Ti stated that some of the order and been left behind to mount a defence in case Sidious attacked and the team failed (link) basically not putting all of their best into one mission in case of failure which is actually a much more tactical decision and makes more sense. Furthermore, all Saesee's accolades place him as one of the best Jedi not the best and the only thing to contradict this is Shaak's word but there's context to it. She's trying to reassure Anakin that the team would succeed and of course would exaggerate saying they are the orders best.

Ti could have just as easily been trying to convince Anakin to stay by saying that he was better off here, and even saying that they were the best would have to be believable in the first place to Anakin, and when she says it he notably doesn't deny it. Furthermore it wouldn't make sense to bring anything less than the four strongest on the part of Mace, seeing as it would both minimize the risk and any retaliation would come only if they failed. Even putting him on NEBULOUSLY the same tier as Shaak Ti and the others is impressive though, seeing as Ti was able to fend of the likes of Greivous, and Cin Drallig was quite impressive in his own regard, being able to briefly clash with KF Vader and apparently considered quite impressive by the likes of Dooku. Hell, Cin Drallig even used a barrier to defend himself against one of KF Vader's force pushes, so if Tiin is even NEBULOUSLY on this tier by statements, much less one of the best..........

The general idea is that if Tiin is on this tier he is above Shado Vao basically without exception, because this tier is impressive in its own right. The most you have done here is say that Ti (and potentially Drallig) are on the same level as Tiin, which itself is highly suspect, but even if that was the case it doesn't diminish the scaling all that much.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

-Count Dooku, Labyrinth of Evil

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Tiin's supposed advantage isn't nearly as massive as your making out. Sure, he has above average precognition because of his unique telepathic abilities but his precognition is noticably inferior to that of Anakin Skywalker's (I'll get on to why this is relevant in a sec). We know this via statements and scaling. During TPM as you know Anakin races pods and Qui Gon puts his talent down to him being "strong in the force" and him being able to "see things before they happen" which shows Anakin's pod racing talent is purely down to his strength in the force which gave him unnatural precognition. Now according to Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin hadn't joined the Jedi, he still would have been able to "fly rings around Saesee Tiin" which shows Anakin's precognition is significantly better than Tiin's as without any training in the use of his precognition he was still a better flier than Tiin and was able to fly rings around him. Anakin being a better pilot than Tiin is further supported by Obi wan in ANH saying, "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy". So overall Anakin's precognition outclasses Saesee's by a significant margin.

What does this actually mean? So what if Anakin and Obi Wan have better precognition than Tiin, honestly. How does this affect this battle in anyways. Shado is not Obi-Wan, not Anakin and quite frankly not comparable to either really at all. Furthermore, I can accept this for Anakin, but for Obi-Wan it doesn't even make sense in the first place because by saying this:

Anakin as of AOTC/Early TCW has better/equal Force Feats than Obi Wan which shows a general level of parity between the two. Now with his superior precognition and his equal Force feats surely Anakin should be the stronger of the two. Wrong! Obi Wan is stated to be stronger (link). This proves that Anakin’s precognition cannot make up the slight gap between the two which considering Anakin’s precognition surpasses Tiin’s it doesn’t bode well for him.

You are essentially taking a unknown power gap, and taking it down to "well precog isn't enough to gap it" despite the fact that we were never told anything about why it exists in the first place or might quantify it. This is an example of bad scaling.

Furthermore, you entirely ignored and downplayed the TELEPATHY that Tiin has, which was more relevant than PRECOGNITION ever was to this fight. Tiin's telepathy is based by absorbing the emitted thoughts of individuals that he can even do when completely fighting on reflex alone, allowing him to know what an enemy does before they themselves do it and can be hard to detect. Its also something Vao has actively zero counter to, and has fallen to before. You didn't even attempt to counter this whatsoever, so I am assuming you are just conceding the point that Tiin will be able to freely read Shado's thoughts for the entire battle, or were conveniently ignoring it.

I'll come back to this later

Good for him. However, you've conveniently omitted the context of this to favour Tiin. Mace notes that it "isn't a competition" indicating he wasn't aiming to beat Tiin which is reinforced by his next line "precision is better than power". Mace wasn't throwing it as far as he could whereas Tiin was. In fact, as you yourself mentioned the comic is basically a debate between the two over precision vs power and Tiin favoured power in the opening exchange which is reinforced by him saying "his strength has never failed him" and that he's "hard headed".

Basically, any scaling from Mace based on this is pointless.

I was using this novel to show how the two could be peers not equals. The two were old friends and engaged in some debate from time to time, Mace had convinced Tiin to be on the council, and the two have showed up together a lot, and were noted to be sparring partners. Furthermore the entire comic had them fighting as virtual equals, with neither one being much more effective than the other with multiple instance of one being more effective in a specific instance, a portrayal that speaks for itself.

Shado sent Cade Skywalker flying with a Force Push (link) and Darth Maladi also did something similar (link) who Shado is at least equal to since he was able to split her Force Lightning with no apparent difficulty (link). While this doesn’t exactly allow me to do much scaling from Cade given Force Pushes don’t exactly show equality it at least proves he isn’t fodder to Cade and given Cade could TK a massive ship (1,2,3,4) with ease Shado should be able to replicate Tiin’s showings as most of them aren’t that impressive.

Splitting someone's force lighting means you are at least equal to them now? Jeez better tell Obi-Wan he suddenly got an upgrade to Dookie level.

Furthremore pushing somebody has NEVER been an example that you are equal to somebody in the force or even not fodder to somebody, seeing as Kanan and Ezra have pushed Vader, Ezra has pushed Maul.....I could go on and on about relative fodder force pushing superiors.

Its far far less scaleable than you would think

Sparring is supposed to be impressive? They clashed blades a few times. This proves what exactly? Sparring is not an accurate measure of how well characters do in actual battles lol.

The point of sparring to train, or to test yourself. If Mace couldn't gain at least a challenge or learn a lesson from it, there isn't a point to doing it. Again merely the idea that he could be somewhere close to Mace in lightsaber ability is presented here. The point of an equal spar in private isn't some ceremonial business (especially when Mace himself is the one doing it, one of the most utilitarian Jedi) and clearly even if he was not intending to kill, its not like he would be holding back in any attempt to win either. Mace trying to train to improve himself through sparring is a higher level saber duel than Shado has ever fought bar none, and although its not quite the same as seriously facing him on the battlefield, its not like Mace even remotely tries to significantly hold back during spars in the first place, as has been demonstrated before in the past

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

So now the first debunk is down, and the ball is in your court @arkhamasylum3. I wont be so late with the next one, and will be delivering my final verdict on why I think my character wins, as well as another debunk

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#37 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Will respond soon.

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#38 Posted by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Not bad.

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#43 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read the posts. Good post from Arkham, but Decaf's counter will be tough to handle.

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#48 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

Good counter from decaf. Pretty strong tbh. Waiting for Akham response.

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#49 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Will respond tomorrow.

I know I'm over the time limit but considering you took 6 days to post last time I'd say me not posting on time due to circumstance is perfectably acceptable.

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#50 Posted by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio