Battle of the brothers: Lucifer Morningstar & Michael Demiurgos (DC) vs Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep (HPL)

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drudged

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Since this battle has been toyed around with, a what-if scenario. Both brothers end up crossing paths with one another and using combat feats, they must beat the other to submission to drive them away.

Who would win in this battle?

vs

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drudged

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Bump, anyone?

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SwagPack

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Team Mythos. Nyarla's avatars casually transcend the concept of dimensions in Cthulhu Mythos and Yog-Sothoth is immeasurably stronger than Nyarla and nothing short of Azathoth can hope to defeat it.

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zensum

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HPL outergods win imo. Yog is basically azathoth's stand in and nyal cant be killed cause hes linked to azza.

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drudged

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Bumping. Any others? Another discussion said Michael and Lucifer wins with ease, but I'm not quite sure about that since the general consensus here is Yog and Nyarla win.

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PoisononousVenom

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#8  Edited By PoisononousVenom

Lucifer and Michael win in a huge stomp. Yog Sothoth is omnipresent within Lovecraft's universe. But that's it. He's not omnipotent and neither is Nya. Meanwhile Lucifer and Michael together are basically omnipotent(Creating DC and all. Michael=infinite power, Lucifer=infinite shaping of Michael's power). Individually they are both "nigh-omnipotent" and omniscient. *Having infinite power and the ability to do literally anything with said power defines omnipotence).

Feat wise Lucifer and Michael individually will win 100% of the time; together it's a stomp. Hierarchy wise either Lucifer or Michael individually are also beyond both Yog and Nya. Lucifer/Michael are multiversal, Yog is merely universal and Nya is far below Yog in implied power(They barely have feats)

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Galan_Destroyer

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@swagpack said:

Team Mythos. Nyarla's avatars casually transcend the concept of dimensions in Cthulhu Mythos and Yog-Sothoth is immeasurably stronger than Nyarla and nothing short of Azathoth can hope to defeat it.

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DeChefMan98

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Bump

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Zawarudo9001

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@poisononousvenom: you're trolling real hard calm down man. Lucifer and Michael aren't even Omnipotent beings. Yogsothoth is Omnipotent even if he's an imaginary fraction of Azathoth. And you're saying that Yogsothoth and Nyarlathotep are only Universal at best? ROFL that's the biggest low ball i've ever seen on this website. Both Yogsothoth and Nyarlathotep are Outerversal if not High Outerversal, while both Lucifer and Michael are just High Hyperversal to Low Outerversal at best. Yogsothoth and Nyarlathotep uses a Reverse Card and effortlessly curb stomps both Lucifer and Michael.

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lmaolmaolmao

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Cancer.

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MyMom

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Both Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep are featless and only relevant with some vague statements and dimensional tiering which is like saying "X beats Y because I say so" without giving any proper argument. If we only take statements at the face value, might as well say that Odin from Marvel is omnipotent.

Here are only relevant feats they have:

Yog-Sothoth:

And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate. It was as though suns and worlds and universes had converged upon one point whose very position in space they had conspired to annihilate with an impact of resistless fury.

Yog-Sothoth speaking is comparable to universes slamming into and annihilating each other.

Nyarlathotep:

Destroying the Earth and the Moon in an instant.

There was not any pounding now, but only the unearthly roaring and hissing of waters tumbling into the rift. The smoke of that rift had changed to steam, and almost hid the world as it grew denser and denser. It seared my face and hands, and when I looked to see how it affected my companions I found they had all disappeared. Then very suddenly it ended, and I knew no more till I awaked upon a bed of convalescence. As the cloud of steam from the Plutonic gulf finally concealed the entire surface from my sight, all the firmament shrieked at a sudden agony of mad reverberations which shook the trembling aether. In one delirious flash and burst it happened; one blinding, deafening holocaust of fire, smoke, and thunder that dissolved the wan moon as it sped outward to the void.

And when the smoke cleared away, and I sought to look upon the earth, I beheld against the background of cold, humorous stars only the dying sun and the pale mournful planets searching for their sister.

- The Crawling Chaos

Nyarlathotep electircutes some people and drives them made:

It was in the hot autumn that I went through the night with the restless crowds to see Nyarlathotep; through the stifling night and up the endless stairs into the choking room. And shadowed on a screen, I saw hooded forms amidst ruins, and yellow evil faces peering from behind fallen monuments. And I saw the world battling against blackness; against the waves of destruction from ultimate space; whirling, churning, struggling around the dimming, cooling sun. Then the sparks played amazingly around the heads of the spectators, and hair stood up on end whilst shadows more grotesque than I can tell came out and squatted on the heads. And when I, who was colder and more scientific than the rest, mumbled a trembling protest about imposture and static electricity, Nyarlathotep drove us all out, down the dizzy stairs into the damp, hot, deserted midnight streets. I screamed aloud that I was not afraid; that I never could be afraid; and others screamed with me for solace. We swore to one another that the city was exactly the same, and still alive; and when the electric lights began to fade we cursed the company over and over again, and laughed at the queer faces we made. - Nyarlathotep

Brothers stomps, not even close.

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FirstOrder

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Yog stomps he is the supreme arch-type all things that exist are just parts of him his power is boundless.

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cosmic_reign

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Probably stalemate or Outer gods. ?

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EmperorZod

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#16  Edited By EmperorZod

Can we make it a general rule not to use Lovecraftian horrors in battles? They're almost as bad as CAS battles.

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deactivated-5f34b01dd81ff

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Can we make it a general rule not to use Lovecraftian horrors in battles? They're almost as bad as CAS battles.

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FirstOrder

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deactivated-5f98b2eb38d48

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Lucifer and Michael should win, maybe only Yog can stand against them (due to embodying infinite boundless Archetypes). But I think Will and Power of God is enough to wreck him, Nyar is featless.

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lmaolmaolmao

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@emperorzod said:

Can we make it a general rule not to use Lovecraftian horrors in battles? They're almost as bad as CAS battles.

B...but what about the raging outerversal boner the fans have?

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deactivated-5f34b01dd81ff

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@lmaolmaolmao: Do you realize that CAS is basically a religion on this point? I'm not going to even post or argue for him etc. because every thread will get around 200 comments of people with very different takes etc.

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EmperorZod

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@sufferedtoker said:
@emperorzod said:

Can we make it a general rule not to use Lovecraftian horrors in battles? They're almost as bad as CAS battles.

B...but what about the raging outerversal boner the fans have?

GET OUT | Reaction Images | Know Your Meme

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deactivated-5f34b01dd81ff

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PoisononousVenom

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#25  Edited By PoisononousVenom

@zawarudo9001:

"Yogsothoth is Omnipotent even if he's an imaginary fraction of Azathoth",

Is utterly untrue. Do you know what omnipotent is? If so, then obviously Yog is not omnipotent. Azathoth is the only omnipotent entity there, and he's also the opposite of omniscient, seeing as he knows absolutely nothing. Yog is subservient to Azathoth, not his equal.

To put it into perspective, Yog is everything that exists in his creation, however Lucifer and Michael actually created "creation" aka DC/Vertigo and they existed beyond it. Yog in hierarchy would be similar to the endless(in that he alone would be equal to all the endless together and more), but below Lucifer and Michael together.

I never stated Lucifer and Michael to be omnipotent individually like you suggest. However, together they are and that is a fact. If you had even the slightest idea of what omnipotent means(the ability to do anything within what is logically possible-weak omnipotence, and the ability to do anything-strong omnipotence), then you would know that Lucifer's ability of being able to create/mold/will anything along with Michael's ability of infinite power, is what makes a entity omnipotent. Those two powersets combined allows for the ability to do absolutely anything. At the very least, Lucifer/Michael together form "weak omnipotence", which is usually the type displayed in world religions and comics(DC, Marvel, etc).

Your opinion is irrelevant when it comes to these concepts. This is literally what defines the word, "omnipotent". Both feat-wis eand powerset/implied-power wise, Lucifer/Michael together are more powerful than Yog Sothoth. Individually, Yog wins but this thread is about them together.

Also, Nya is completely a waste of time to beings like this and poses no threat to Lucifer or Michael even individually. You bringing him up makes me think that you're trolling.

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Zawarudo9001

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@poisononousvenom: LOL you're the only one who is trolling and what's even worse is that you're a massive hypocrite for telling me that i'm trolling, just take a look at what have you stated. "Weak Omnipotence" and "Nigh Omnipotence + Nigh Omnipotence = True Omnipotence" those are some load of BS. You and I can dream up about an Omnipotent being and when you wake up then that Omnipotent being will be gone with the rest of your other dreams, the idea is the same with Azathoth. He dreamed up a being called Yogsothoth who is Omnipotent in his said "dream" if he woke up then Yogsothoth will be gone with the rest of H.P Lovecraft verse. Omnipotence by definition is having an absolute unit of power, flawless, and perfect. There is no such thing as "Weak Omnipotence" if that's the case with DC then give me proof to back up your claim which is pointless because going by logic "Omnipotence" means an absolute power. You cannot add up 2 characters to be able to reach Omnipotence no matter how strong and powerful the both of them are, there is also no such thing as "Nigh Omnipotence" because that's like saying "Half Infinite + Half Infinite = Infinite" which is ridiculously ridiculously absurd going by logic. It doesn't really matter how strong and powerful characters are as long as they are not Omnipotent to begin with then they will get curbstomp by an actual Omnipotent being. Also why are you assuming that what i'm saying in that reply are nothing but opinion? Those are facts and you're denying it by calling it an opinion.

Tl;DR: You're trolling so hard by making up BS, and Yogsothoth stomps Lucifer and Michael combined.

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chasekilleen

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Zawarudo9001

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@chasekilleen: care to reason out why i'm wrong and trolling? If you can prove my statements wrong then go ahead. Feel free to debate me as long as your arguements are reasonable. If you can't then stop wasting pointless replies that doesn't do much in debates.

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chasekilleen

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Zawarudo9001

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@chasekilleen: So was there really a point to your obnoxious replies that have nothing to do with debates? What trolls do is that they'll try to do anything to get reactions from others and that's what you're currently doing. It's so sad to see you as nothing more than a hypocrite, please go get a life and find a job.

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chasekilleen

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NoxApocrypha

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Yog-Sothoth is omniscient in all universes due to one singular quote in which it exists in all realities and even thoughts. It has nigh omnipotent power and is the sole reason Azathoth doesn't open it's eye and suddenly blackness. Hypnos the god of dreams and sleep was driven to such a hight of madness by looking at the Outer-Gods that he refuse to sleep. THE GOD OF DREAMS REFUSED TO SLEEP. And when he finally caved the outer-gods looked back and their gaze was so powerful it obliterated Hypnos. A GOD WAS OBLITERATED BY STARING. Nyarlathotep took the human michael through an infinite amount of dimensions just to place him at the throne of Azathoth and dip.

Yog-Sothoth is omnipresent, omniscient and damn near omnipotent. Team DC cannot face a being in which the very matter that makes up their body is simply a tiny fragment of said higher being. The Air they breathe can be stricken from them with a passing thought. So assuming they don't go badshit mad looking upon an entity with infinite forms whilst simultaneously having no form whatsoever, what do they have to face that being?

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PoisononousVenom

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#34  Edited By PoisononousVenom

@zawarudo9001: Nice trolling.

You clearly don't have the slightest clue about omnipotence....Two powersets combined can equal omnipotence. Lucifer's power is literally infinite will to mold/create anything, and Michael's is infinite power. An omnipotent being's only requirement is the ability to do anything(which Lucifer/Michael together fall into). "Infinite power to create" and "infinite will to mold that power into whatever one wants" reaches the definition of omnipotent. This isn't rocket science.

A being that's "nigh omnipotent" is another word for saying "very powerful". It's possible to almost reach infinity. Which obviously just means it's possible to reach an incalculable power that's not truly infinite, aka indefinite. Again, this is simple and not rocket science.

Weak omnipotence is the ability to do anything within logic. Entities like these are often found and limited to their own creation for obvious logical reasons. An example of this is that Marvel's TOAA cannot affect anything within DC. It's confined to it's own Comic Franchise, which is Marvel. Same for DC's The Presence. In the real world, an example is an entity with weak omnipotence cannot create a rock so heavy it can't lift, as doing so would make it not omnipotent, and therefore a contradiction in logic. It is limited to logic.

Strong omnipotence is the ability do anything. A being with strong omnipotence has no restrictions at all, and is illogical and a paradox. It's falsifiable and unfalsifiable through coherent logic, which is what makes it a paradox while also making it omnipotent. A being like this can do anything no matter how illogical, such as create a a square that's also a circle, or exist/not exist simultaneously This type of omnipotence is rarely seen in comics, anime, and even the real world. It's the most complex concept imaginable and in existence.

I'm not going to bother going into more detail with you seeing as you don't even know anything about the concept of omnipotence. But basically, you're wrong on every point you've made, and this is not an opinion. Yog Sothoth is weaker than Lucifer and Michael together both in implied power, and in actual feats(which is what defines the victor here on comicvine).

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cupofreality

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Angels spite by feats.

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Zawarudo9001

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@poisononousvenom: you literally missed the entire point of my 2nd comment LMFAO, you need to read my 2nd comment again to understand my point, google's definition of omnipotence is "the quality of having unlimited or very great power." And unlimited by definition is "to not have limit, not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent." You cannot measure Omnipotence whether it is "Weak Omnipotence" and "Strong Omnipotence" again you're making up BS that both DC and Philosophers don't agree with. What you stated in your "Weak Omnipotence" definition is that the character cannot make a rock so heavy it cannot lifted by said character, but does that means in "Strong Omnipotence" the character can make a rock so heavy it cannot be lifted by said character? LOL you literally just nerfed the said "Strong Omnipotence" character by a long shot. Omnnipotent characters doesn't really need to be able to transcend logic to be said Omnipotent, all they need is to be able to do anything what's logical for example, a being who's Omnipotent cannot really erase the concept of numbers out of existence because he would still be counted as an Omnipotent being therefor I can say "there is 1 Omnipotent being" and don't forget that "1" is also a number. "It's possible to almost reach infinity" by definition means infinity is "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate." For example, if you manage to almost reach an endless, limitless, or immesurable point in space then the said space isn't even infinite to begin with. It's funny for you to say i'm wrong in every point just because you disagree. Whenever you disagree with someone then point out what's wrong in what they said and not just straight up saying "You're trolling" "You're wrong in every point you've made" blah blah blah without any reasonable explanation. You're very delusional in this debate.

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deactivated-5f98b2eb38d48

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@poisononousvenom: you literally missed the entire point of my 2nd comment LMFAO, you need to read my 2nd comment again to understand my point, google's definition of omnipotence is "the quality of having unlimited or very great power." And unlimited by definition is "to not have limit, not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent." You cannot measure Omnipotence whether it is "Weak Omnipotence" and "Strong Omnipotence" again you're making up BS that both DC and Philosophers don't agree with. What you stated in your "Weak Omnipotence" definition is that the character cannot make a rock so heavy it cannot lifted by said character, but does that means in "Strong Omnipotence" the character can make a rock so heavy it cannot be lifted by said character? LOL you literally just nerfed the said "Strong Omnipotence" character by a long shot. Omnnipotent characters doesn't really need to be able to transcend logic to be said Omnipotent, all they need is to be able to do anything what's logical for example, a being who's Omnipotent cannot really erase the concept of numbers out of existence because he would still be counted as an Omnipotent being therefor I can say "there is 1 Omnipotent being" and don't forget that "1" is also a number. "It's possible to almost reach infinity" by definition means infinity is "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate." For example, if you manage to almost reach an endless, limitless, or immesurable point in space then the said space isn't even infinite to begin with. It's funny for you to say i'm wrong in every point just because you disagree. Whenever you disagree with someone then point out what's wrong in what they said and not just straight up saying "You're trolling" "You're wrong in every point you've made" blah blah blah without any reasonable explanation. You're very delusional in this debate.

This ^, I'll remember to tag you in more high-end battles. You seem competent @zawarudo9001

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EasyBinez

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They all lose to the covid-19 and therefore are irrelevant!

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PoisononousVenom

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#39  Edited By PoisononousVenom

@zawarudo9001: Google's definition of omnipotence can be claimed by any powerful entity and is unreliable. Having "very great power" is infinitely different than having "unlimited power." However, it's definition of omnipotent is exactly what I said, "The ability to do anything." So thanks for furthering my point. Not to mention logically, philosophers throughout the ages have come to that exact definition of "omnipotent/omnipotence", because it is the only definition that differentiates a finite(very powerful) and infinite being(all-powerful)...

The term "night-infinite" is a phrase to describe a being that's "very powerful", as I already said. Infinity is something that's ever increasing, and a being that's "night-infinite" would have power that's indefinite. There's no way to quantify a being that's "nigh-infinite, just as there's no way to quantify a being that's infinite. The former may have a numerical end that's impossible to be quantified through any means(aka counting), just as the latter. That's whats meant by "almost reaching infinity". Both an indefinite and infinite being(in terms of power), may be un-quantifiable(which is a maybe for the former, and an absolute certainty for the latter). In layman's terms, a being that is nigh-infinite, would appear to be no different than a being that's infinite, in the eyes of a finite being such as us(humans). The difference would only be recognized by those two entities, and any other entities within similar ranges of power----that is assuming the infinite being is operating within the realm of logic.

I never said a character needs to transcend logic to be omnipotent... If you literally just thought about it, an entity that creates a rock so heavy it can't lift, would not be omnipotent. As that very question is designed to be a paradox. If the entity cannot create a rock so heavy it can't lift, then it is omnipotent only within the bounds of Logic. If the entity is able to create such a rock and lift it, then it's a paradox and illogical. That entity would fall under "strong omnipotence". Such a being is incoherent and useless to debate, since it's illogical. The use of the words "strong" and "weak" are only to differentiate between a omnipotent entity that abides by logic(hence keeping it's omnipotence), and a being that disregards logic entirely(which falls under a paradox).

"being who's Omnipotent cannot really erase the concept of numbers out of existence because he would still be counted as an Omnipotent being therefor I can say "there is 1 Omnipotent being" and don't forget that "1" is also a number", is wrong entirely. An omnipotent being operating outside logic can erase the concept of one. It can do anything. Hence why it's a paradox and illogical.

I'm sorry but I can't bother responding anymore. This is literal elementary school level logic and I suggest you go and do some serious reading online before bothering you @ me again. This is a complete waste of time.

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Zawarudo9001

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#40  Edited By Zawarudo9001

@poisononousvenom: LMFAO are you drunk? "Infinity isn't measured by the ability to reach it, but by the ability to never reach it." I never even said that Infinity can be measured in any ways, it is a concept that has no end thus you cannot reach it. You literally said "It's almost possible to reach infinity" on your last post but damn, do you really have some memory problem? "An omnipotent entity is infinite in it's attributes(derived from omnipotence such as omniscience, omnipresence etc) because it cannot be quantified...aka we can't ever place a numerical value on it's ability or power. Hence it's infinite, or at the very least, indefinite." You said that by adding Both Lucifer and Michael they can literally be Omnipotent, have you forgotten about your point?

As quoted by C.S. Lewis

"Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words ‘God can.’ It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”

This quote will pretty much debunk all of your claim for "Strong" "Weak" Omnipotence.

If an Omnipotent being was able to create such a rock it doesn't nessecarily mean he falls into a category called "Strong Omnipotence". Paradox Omnipotence doesn't support such a thing as "Strong Omnipotence".

It's nonsense for such an Omnipotent being to create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it because such being isn't even bound by gravity and it's gravity itself that makes the rock heavy. Thus if an entity managed to create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it then he isn't even Omnipotent to begin with. Omnipotence isn't even bound by the laws of physics like gravity. All of the things you said are pointless and are not supported by anyone. "StRoNg OmNiPoTeNcE" Please don't make me laugh in this debate.

It's over. Go back to the point. Yogsothoth stomps Lucifer and Michael.

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PoisononousVenom

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#41  Edited By PoisononousVenom

@zawarudo9001: Again, you know absolutely nothing about the concept of omnipotence. C.S Lewis was a Christian who believed God was "perfect" and not liable to be anything but so. His view on the concept is heavily influenced by his religious standpoint. Using him as a tool in your argument is basically laughable. To be blunt, his stance on omnipotence would mean that god is limited, and goes directly against the definition of omnipotent. The "Nonsense" he is referring to is sin and evil. He's using the word omnipotence to coincide with his belief that Yahweh/Jesus Christ is omnibenevolent. Also, his view on god falls under logic, and would be classified as "weak omnipotence" if one ignores his stance on omnibenevolence. This isn't rocket science. I don't understand how you don't understand.

So, before bringing up random quotes, at least know what you're talking about lol...

Lucifer has infinite will, Michael has infinite power. I'm pretty sure the ability to create/do anything within creation(Lucifer), and the ability of infinite power(Michael) to sustain the former= The ability to do anything. This is basic.

"If an Omnipotent being was able to create such a rock it doesn't nessecarily mean he falls into a category called "Strong Omnipotence". Paradox Omnipotence doesn't support such a thing as "Strong Omnipotence".", makes absolutely no sense, sorry. You can't even give a single point to support your claim that "paradox omnipotence doesnt support strong omnipotence". Like, that entire sentence is incoherent and makes no sense...

You're trolling at this point. Either that or you simply don't understand this topic, and you're trying to defend your losing argument by bringing up things you don't know about(such as C.S Lewis). Either way, Yog Sothoth has basically no feats, and loses to Lucifer/Michael in a curbstomp featwise, as well as implied power. Michael/Lucifer created DC/Vertigo. If we put them and Yog in the same creation, then they would be on the level of Azathoth. The end.

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Zawarudo9001

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#42  Edited By Zawarudo9001

@poisononousvenom: care to explain why i'm wrong in every aspect? How is bringing up quotes makes me look like i'm trying to defend my losing arguement? I bet Lewis can reason things out even more clearly than a fool like you even if he believes in God (i don't believe in God). Is there any reason why i'm trolling? How am I wrong in the definition of Omnipotence? If that's the case then I wouldn't be surprised if you turned out to be a mentally ill person SMH. Why do you even have Comic Vine?

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PoisononousVenom

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#43  Edited By PoisononousVenom

@zawarudo9001: I've literally explained everything. If you simply can't read for longer than 1minute, then say so. It's really coming across as if you're trolling or mentally handicapped. You demonstrated 0 knowledge about the concept of omnipotence, 0 knowledge about Yog Sothoth vs Lucifer/Michael featwise(which the brothers obviously win), and 0 knowledge about their implied power.

Instead, you chose to bring up nonsensical and random topics that were irrelevant to the discussion. You brought up a random quote from C.S Lewis, who's a christian and who's views reflect that subjectivity, on a debate about omnipotence(which has nothing to do with religion)....lol....This is laughable. Nice "debating", not. Bye Troll.

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Zawarudo9001

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@poisononousvenom: LOL don't expect me to debate you if you cannot even support Weak Omnipotence and Strong Omnipotence, where did you get this BS? Vs Battles? Lewis' point was it wouldn't make sense for God to give a creature free will and at the same time take away free will from it. Damn do I really have to repeat myself telling you what's the meaning of Omnipotence? The truth is you just cannot keep up with me in this debate. You're just a delusional troll, you cannot even support your claim about Strong Omnipotence. Also Illogical and Paradox Omnipotence is nothing more than a ridiculously absurd idea. People always use the logical Fallacy "If God is all-powerful, can he create a stone so heavy he can't lift? If he can create one then he's not all-powerful because he won't be able to lift it. If he can't create one, then he's not all-powerful because he can't create the stone." NO! That question is a fallacy and should automatically be discarded in a serious debate. Being omnipotent does not being throwing logical reasoning out the window. "Draw a triangle with 4 sides". You can't. It would be a square. There is no logical way that a shape can have 4 sides and still be called a triangle. "Can he make a burrito so large he can't eat it in one bite?" "Can he make 1+1 = 3?" All of these are logical fallacies/paradoxes. They go against the Laws of logic and make no sense whatsoever. A “logical omnipotent” being cannot create a rock it cannot lift. ( it is maximally powerful within the laws of logic ). An “illogical omnipotent” being can create a rock it cannot lift. but since it cannot lift it, it’s not omnipotent anymore - and vanishes in a puff of logic. God cannot will something that ceases to make him a God, that's why that question is flawed.

I don't even bother to argue with an fool who depends on Paradox Omnipotence.

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Zawarudo9001

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Next Debater please.

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lmaolmaolmao

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@poisononousvenom: LOL don't expect me to debate you if you cannot even support Weak Omnipotence and Strong Omnipotence, where did you get this BS? Vs Battles? Lewis' point was it wouldn't make sense for God to give a creature free will and at the same time take away free will from it. Damn do I really have to repeat myself telling you what's the meaning of Omnipotence? The truth is you just cannot keep up with me in this debate. You're just a delusional troll, you cannot even support your claim about Strong Omnipotence. Also Illogical and Paradox Omnipotence is nothing more than a ridiculously absurd idea. People always use the logical Fallacy "If God is all-powerful, can he create a stone so heavy he can't lift? If he can create one then he's not all-powerful because he won't be able to lift it. If he can't create one, then he's not all-powerful because he can't create the stone." NO! That question is a fallacy and should automatically be discarded in a serious debate. Being omnipotent does not being throwing logical reasoning out the window. "Draw a triangle with 4 sides". You can't. It would be a square. There is no logical way that a shape can have 4 sides and still be called a triangle. "Can he make a burrito so large he can't eat it in one bite?" "Can he make 1+1 = 3?" All of these are logical fallacies/paradoxes. They go against the Laws of logic and make no sense whatsoever. A “logical omnipotent” being cannot create a rock it cannot lift. ( it is maximally powerful within the laws of logic ). An “illogical omnipotent” being can create a rock it cannot lift. but since it cannot lift it, it’s not omnipotent anymore - and vanishes in a puff of logic. God cannot will something that ceases to make him a God, that's why that question is flawed.

I don't even bother to argue with an fool who depends on Paradox Omnipotence.

Yea this tbh.These paradoxes are almost on the level of "Can an omnipotent do something without doing it?" like lmao this logic.You are only contradicting your own statements with some of these.And regarding the basic paradoxes these guys cant even explain how transduality works and they want to debunk omnipotence."Beyond logic" argument wont help when you are contradicting yourself.

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HukO

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Angels

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@poisononousvenom is actually 100% correct, although I feel like he's going about explaining it in a rather jumbled way.

He's not saying that a Strong Omnipotent being makes any sense whatsoever. In fact, he's said multiple times that they don't. But a writer can put down on paper "My ultimate being can both exist and not exist at the same time, can count to infinity three minutes while only counting one number a minute, and create a rock so heavy he can't lift it and then lift that rock without violating the earlier statement".

These statements ARE nonsense and make no sense, but we can write about them and so we need to classify them. That is what we classify as Strong Omnipotence.

Frankly it's a pointless tangent since no one has tried to make a claim that either Lucifer+Micheal or Yog-Sothoth are Strong Omnipotent beings, so we're only dealing with Weak Omnipotence (thankfully). And Weak Omntipotent beings are beings that can do anything at all that logically makes sense. They have absolutely no limits and anything that puts a limit on them in any way within the bounds of logic makes them not Omnipotent.

And because of that, neither Lucifer+Micheal NOR Yog-Sothoth can be Omnipotent. Yog-Sothoth cannot destroy Azathoth while maintaining the dream of existence and since that is one thing he cannot do, he's not Omnipotent. Lucifer+Micheal are not Omnipotent because they both rely on the other to be able to do anything and if Lucifer decided not to shape the universe in the way Micheal wanted, then he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. That is one limitation on them, which means they are also not Omnipotent. If a being has any limits at all on what it can do within logic then it is not Omnipotent.

Now when you boil down to what these entities CAN do, it becomes clear that the angels are more powerful. Lovecraft and his extended authors can state all they want that Yog-Sothoth is all things and exists in all things across all dimensions, but all of this is really just flowery speech. We don't get many, if any, feats of what Yog-Sothoth can do. We have the one quote from earlier where his voice is compared to universes erupting, but since universes don't actually erupt, that's really just a comparison made by someone who is overwhelmed by them and isn't any sort of literal. And even if it was literal, Lucifer+Micheal creating all of DC's creation is just WAY higher of a scale then that.

Lovecraft is cosmic horror. Most of everything is done through suggestion and flowing imagery. We're scared of the idea of a being that exists throughout multiple universes. But giving them actual feats to properly scale them would take away the unknown element that makes them enjoyable. Lucifer and Micheal are comic book characters and we are meant to be in awe of what they do by seeing it in action. And since character battles work on feats and not vague power tiers like hyperversal/extraversal/outerversal, the angels basically have to win.

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Deadknight999

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I dunno about yog sothoth but from everything I've heared he should solo with no difficulty

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zgtfreak

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#50  Edited By zgtfreak

Cthulhu Mythos is one of the most overhyped lied about verses of all time. Complete fodder. Lucifer and Michael individually can will him out of existence. They are the will and power of their omnipotent being and create and shape the absolutely fundmental elements of existence and concepts. You can only find a handful of entities at best who can defeat Michael; and I've found none so far who can even match Lucifer, let alone best him.