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Posted by man_thing (326 posts) 10 months, 7 days ago

Poll: Batman/Orphan vs Daredevil/Captain America (25 votes)

DC 64%
Marvel 36%
  • All unarmed, but get their suit.
  • Usual morals.
  • Fight in well lit warehouse.
  • Usual morals.
  • 616 version for Marvel.
  • PC/Rebirth Composite for DC.

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce beats Daredevil, then they double team stomp Cap.

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#3 Posted by beatboks1 (9906 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce beats Daredevil, then they double team stomp Cap.

Unarmed favors Matt. Bruce would win with all his gear but Matt's greatest weapons are his senses and he doesn't loose them in this scenario

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#4 Edited by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I would argue Bruce would win through raw physicals and skill alone. Skillwise, what feats does Daredevil have above Batman? Or durability feats to tank Bruce’s hits that have been enough to treat Steel like tissue paper, one-shot a medium sized mecha, one-shot Green Arrow (who has tanked multiple blows from enraged Deathstroke), etc?

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#5 Posted by RBT (27128 posts) - - Show Bio

I would argue Bruce would win through raw physicals and skill alone. Skillwise, what feats does Daredevil have above Batman? Or durability feats to tank Bruce’s hits that have been enough to treat Steel like tissue paper, one-shot a medium sized mecha, one-shot Green Arrow (who has tanked multiple blows from enraged Deathstroke), etc?

Are you suggesting that Batman can do more damage with one hit than Slade can do with multiple?

Online
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#6 Posted by beatboks1 (9906 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: he doesnt need skill above Bruce's when when his senses allow him to react to moves Brice hasn't yet made.

When Bruce can hit as hard as Namor or spidey or Toombstone (all of whom Matt has tanked and walked away from and several more of that ilk) you can talk to me about Bruce powering through him with strength. He cant so its a non issue. On the durability side its Matt who has the superior feats given je doesnt wear a suit that is as protective as Bruces.

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#7 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: Daredevil has taken hits from Spider-man, a guy who can throw tractors like softballs, and Wrecker and Thunderball who are 10 tonners each. One shotting a mech is nice but taking on 6-7 Nazi war mechs singlehandedly is a better feat. Batman isnt one, two or even three shotting him in his wildest dreams.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: You seriously think Matt can tank hits from the mid tier Namor? Seriously? Do I need to bring out all the instances where Daredevil has been significantly damaged by less? Daredevil predicting Bruce depends if he ever predicted someone with a fighting style as complex as Batman’s. As for durability, the OP states Batman has his suit. @rbt: yes, he can do more damage with a hit than 2 from Slade. His feats have been solidly superior to Slade for a good amount of time now.

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#9 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

And Matt's move reading is basically anticipating an attack by reading breathing patterns, minute muscle twitches etc. Unless Batman has feats of countering that somehow, he wont be immune to getting his moves read.

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#10 Posted by TonyMartial (8840 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil and Cap.

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#11 Edited by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Daredevil has taken hits from Spider-man

Was it Classic Spidey? Or Modern?

and Wrecker and Thunderball who are 10 tonners each

Wrecker has caused the Thing pain and chipped a bit of rock off. Thunderball has took hits from Namor and Hulk. I consider these feats for Daredevil outliers, for obvious reasons.

One shotting a mech is nice but taking on 6-7 Nazi war mechs singlehadedly is a better feat.

What were the size of these mechs? This size (Batwing #23)?

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Batman isnt one, two or even three shotting him in his wildest dreams.

I NEVER said that. I just think Bruce can deal good damage with his hits.

@brucerogers said:

And Matt's move reading is basically anticipating an attack by reading breathing patterns, minute muscle twitches etc. Unless Batman has feats of countering that somehow, he wont be immune to getting his moves read.

I mean Bruce can predict and sense moves as well. Even the moves of someone as skilled as Lady Shiva.

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#12 Posted by Batvibe12 (5570 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#13 Posted by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

It can go either way.

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#14 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: Spidey and DD have butted heads many times though the instance I am thinking of is from The Amazing Spider-man #287. Peter had to pound Matt multiple times to get him to back off urgently and it still didn't KO him. That would be from the late 80s so I guess classic modern. Peter obviously could have killed him when really pissed but they weren't love taps either.

DD also fought evenly with classic Sabertooth who could crumple metal weights like paper, while destroying huge concrete structures underground.

See the thing about Wrecker is that he normally shares his power with his teammates, which makes all of them 10 tonnes each. Daredevil fought him when he was that powerful. The instances you are referring to was when he wasn't sharing his power and thus a class 40 something. But either way, none of these guys are really a physical threat to any powerhouse, even though they started off as Thor villains. So no, it's not an outlier.

Matt admittedly didn't dismember the mech like that but the ones he beat were as big as small buildings. He used his fair share of weaponry but he could still damage them with his bill club.

And finally, I know you never claimed Batman would stomp him and I was just trying to clarify that Daredevil can definitely engage in a prolonged brawl with Bruce. Even if he will get injured in the process and possibly lose.

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#15 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: Sorry for the double tag, but I saw your edited post now. Lady Shiva reads moves in a different manner than Matt and even if Bruce can read his moves as well, that doesn't mean he can make himself unreadable.

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#16 Posted by BobbitsC (40 posts) - - Show Bio

Since nobody has their gadgets, Cap could stomp Batman because of his enhancements, and Daredevil has his superhuman senses, so I don't see any way team DC is winning this.

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#17 Edited by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Spidey and DD have butted heads many times though the instance I am thinking of is from The Amazing Spider-man #287. Peter had to pound Matt multiple times to get him to back off urgently and it still didn't KO him. That would be from the late 80s so I guess classic modern. Peter obviously could have killed him when really pissed but they weren't love taps either.

Impressive feat. But does Spider-Man have any impressive striking feats from that period? Because every high end street tier feat I've seen from him is in Modern Period.

DD also fought evenly with classic Sabertooth who could crumple metal weights like paper, while destroying huge concrete structures underground.

So Sabertooth is a casual steel and thick concrete buster? Batman has better feats than that. One-shotting Pre Hush Virus Killer Croc (who has took hits from Nightwing), one-shotting Green Arrow (tanked 2 hits from enraged Deathstroke), significantly dazing On Venom Bane, etc.

See the thing about Wrecker is that he normally shares his power with his teammates, which makes all of them 10 tonnes each. Daredevil fought him when he was that powerful. The instances you are referring to was when he wasn't sharing his power and thus a class 40 something.

Even with his teammates he has good feats. No selling an Iron Fist, taking hits from Thor in a modern apparence, and I've mentioned feats for Thunderball.

Matt admittedly didn't dismember the mech like that but the ones he beat were as big as small buildings. He used his fair share of weaponry but he could still damage them with his bill club.

What do you mean by damage? Damage the overall mech? Because if he just chipped a bit of the mech's steel off, it's not impressive. That's just damaging a small portion of the mech's metal, that's below steel busting which is casual feat for Batman. And, billy club isn't allowed. OP states they're unarmed.

And finally, I know you never claimed Batman would stomp him and I was just trying to clarify that Daredevil can definitely engage in a prolonged brawl with Bruce. Even if he will get injured in the process and very likely lose

Agreed.

Sorry for the double tag, but I saw your edited post now. Lady Shiva reads moves in a different manner than Matt

So what?

and even if Bruce can read his moves as well,

"Even if"? Why is there a possibility he can't? Bruce already read the moves of Lady Shiva, who is solidly, if not more skilled by a large margin.

that doesn't mean he can make himself unreadable.

Not my point. If they both keep reading each others moves, it would just depend on who's capable of countering the others' moves more effectively. Which would be Batman, with his feats of beating Prometheus easy in their rematch, matching Lady Shiva, outskilling Karate Kid, godstomping the Bambo Monkeys (a single Bamboo monkey is capable of curbstomping Nightwing and Tim Drake at the same time), etc.

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#18 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman:Impressive feat. But does Spider-Man have any impressive striking feats from that period? Because every high end street tier feat I've seen from him is in Modern Period.

He was more impressive during modern times thanks to the various amps he had received, like the Other, along with becoming a skilled martial artist in his own right. That said, he was still a beast back then as well. Strong enough to tip over a shipping container with a finger flick, beat up Titania so severely that she was scared shitless of him and so on. He was still a 10-15 tonner at base who could hit much harder if he needed to.

So Sabertooth is a casual steel and thick concrete buster? Batman has better feats than that. One-shotting Pre Hush Virus Killer Croc (who has took hits from Nightwing),

Wait, so how is bending a metal barbell like THIS supposed to be less impressive than one shotting someone who took hits from Nightwing?. Dick isn't anywhere near as strong enough to replicate Creed's feat and I don't think Bruce can do that either.

one-shotting Green Arrow (tanked 2 hits from enraged Deathstroke),

Are you suggesting Batman hits harder than Deathstroke?. Since when?

significantly dazing On Venom Bane, etc.

Something that is definitely within Creed's ballpark. But anyways, I am not debating Batman vs Creed here.

Even with his teammates he has good feats. No selling an Iron Fist, taking hits from Thor in a modern apparence, and I've mentioned feats for Thunderball.

I don't remember Danny hitting a member (who is sharing his power) with the full force of the IF. In any case, given that even combined they are like a 40-50 tonner max, them tussling with high tiers sounds more like a very low showing by said high tier rather than the norm for them.

What do you mean by damage? Damage the overall mech? Because if he just chipped a bit of the mech's steel off, it's not impressive. That's just damaging a small portion of the mech's metal, that's below steel busting which is casual feat for Batman. And, billy club isn't allowed. OP states they're unarmed.

Well granted he was mostly damaging their outer windshield, but he would have still needed the strength to use his billy club that effectively. If you want metal busting feats, he has broken out of metal restraints while under tremendous pain from prolonged torture and has dented a thick metal door by kicking Kingpin on it, from a fairly long distance.

That said, I have always held Batman in a higher regard when it comes to strength and durability.

So what?

What do you mean by "so what"?. Lady Shiva's ability comes from reading body language like her daughter, unless someone has retconned that. Matt does his thing by reading changes in breathing, blood sugar, adrenaline, muscles twitches etc which is only possible thanks to his enhanced senses, something Shiva lacks. So they aren't similar is my point.

Has Batman shown complete mastery over those when engaged in combat?

"Even if"? Why is there a possibility he can't? Bruce already read the moves of Lady Shiva, who is solidly, if not more skilled by a large margin.

I don't deny Shiva's superiority over DD in terms of skill but since when has that been a deciding factor against move reading?. Also, how exactly does he read her moves anyway?. Does he do it like Cassandra Cain or does he just anticipate and counter them via muscle memory and training, which is something any skilled martial artist can do?

Not my point. If they both keep reading each others moves, it would just depend on who's capable of countering the others' moves more effectively. Which would be Batman, with his feats of beating Prometheus easy in their rematch, matching Lady Shiva, outskilling Karate Kid, godstomping the Bambo Monkeys (a single Bamboo monkey is capable of curbstomping Nightwing and Tim Drake at the same time), etc.

It's not that simple though. DD has a unique powerset which works in perfect tandem with his training and agility: his enhanced senses, something neither Batman nor the people you have mentioned possess. Not saying he will win only because of that but fighting Prometheus is not quite the same thing as fighting Daredevil is what I am trying to say. This ability of his has allowed him to throw down with the likes of Iron Fist so he is not too shabby in the feat department either.

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#19 Posted by rhistr (430 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, Batman has tanked some heavy hits as well. Including Wonder Woman and Shaggy Man (it's questionable how serious she was, though:)

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/859jjb/durability/

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#20 Edited by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

That said, he was still a beast back then as well. Strong enough to tip over a shipping container with a finger flick,

That's a strength feat, not a striking feat.

beat up Titania so severely that she was scared shitless of him

....Was he enraged or something? Because beating her so hard she's terrified of him makes it sound like he was enraged, at least.

Wait, so how is bending a metal barbell like THIS supposed to be less impressive than one shotting someone who took hits from Nightwing?. Dick isn't anywhere near as strong enough to replicate Creed's feat and I don't think Bruce can do that eithe

Strength is not striking power, so that feat doesn't matter unless Creed was using strength against Daredevil.

Are you suggesting Batman hits harder than Deathstroke?. Since when?

Are you suggesting he doesn't? Since Post Crisis till now.

Something that is definitely within Creed's ballpark.

Bane has took hits from Azrael without much damage, and has this durability feat (Forever Evil Aftermath: Batman Vs. Bane)

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I don't remember Danny hitting a member (who is sharing his power) with the full force of the IF.

He probably didn't hit him with full force, but still considering its the Wrecker (even if you think it's an outlier, in universe characters don't think if Wrecker fighting a high tier is an outlier or not) he probably hit with a good portion of the Iron Fist.

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In any case, given that even combined they are like a 40-50 tonner max, them tussling with high tiers sounds more like a very low showing by said high tier rather than the norm for them.

Just because you classify The Wrecking Crew as class 50s doesn't mean they can't tussle with high tiers. You'd need proof to validate them being class 50 at max

Well granted he was mostly damaging their outer windshield, but he would have still needed the strength to use his billy club that effectively.

Again, strength does not equal striking power which you need to hurt your opponent.

If you want metal busting feats, he has broken out of metal restraints while under tremendous pain from prolonged torture

Batman overpowered Hawkgirl, casually held up a Croc's mouth (Crocs have a bite force of 1.7 tons), casually lifted a concrete column despite being beaten up, etc. He would overpower Matt in grapple without too much trouble.

and has dented a thick metal door by kicking Kingpin on it, from a fairly long distance.

Batman has tanked hits from the Heretic and Lady Shiva (both have feats of one-shotting Nightwing), took hits from Thangarians, took hits from Clayface with only a miniscule amount of blood drawn. Clayface can do stuff like this (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #15)

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He can tank Matt's hits without much damage.

What do you mean by "so what"?. Lady Shiva's ability comes from reading body language like her daughter, unless someone has retconned that. Matt does his thing by reading changes in breathing, blood sugar, adrenaline, muscles twitches etc which is only possible thanks to his enhanced senses, something Shiva lacks. So they aren't similar is my point

So what they aren't similar? My argument is Bruce can predict Matt's moves as well. That's it.

Has Batman shown complete mastery over those when engaged in combat?

Depends on what you mean by complete mastery.

I don't deny Shiva's superiority over DD in terms of skill but since when has that been a deciding factor against move reading?.

I wasn't using saying it's a factor against move reading, just that he can easily move read Daredevil considering he's read the moves of someone much more skilled.

Also, how exactly does he read her moves anyway?. Does he do it like Cassandra Cain or does he just anticipate and counter them via muscle memory and training, which is something any skilled martial artist can do?

IDK. All ever got was that he can know your moves before you do them, and that he can sense moves. He probably does it the same as Shiva does it, since he learned move reading from Shiva.

It's not that simple though. DD has a unique powerset which works in perfect tandem with his training and agility: his enhanced senses, something neither Batman nor the people you have mentioned possess. Not saying he will win only because of that but fighting Prometheus is not quite the same thing as fighting Daredevil is what I am trying to say.

How do his senses change the outcome of a skill battle so much? Both can move read, so I don't think either has a particular advantage in this aspect.

This ability of his has allowed him to throw down with the likes of Iron Fist so he is not too shabby in the feat department either.

Are you talking about their fight when Danny was acting as Daredevil in a Daredevil costume or anything? Because there's context to that, Danny was emulating Matt's moves meaning Daredevil was essentially matching his own skills and moves. Which isn't impressive, for obvious reasons.

All in all I see Bruce beating Daredevil fast enough to help Cass with Cap. Securing a win for team 1.

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Caps physicals should give him the edge over Cassandra while Matt holds off Bruce.

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#22 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: That's a strength feat, not a striking feat.

Not quite. He flicked it with his finger, which would make it a striking feat. Kind of like sending someone flying with a punch, only replace the person with a huge shipping container and the punch with a finger flick. Here is the scan.

No Caption Provided

....Was he enraged or something? Because beating her so hard she's terrified of him makes it sound like he was enraged, at least.

Well he was toying with her mostly. Her vastly superior strength mattered very little against his vastly superior speed, skill and sufficient striking power. That mortified her so much that she was afraid of him for years.

Either way, I am not suggesting he hit Daredevil with the same force but was merely showing you how classic Spidey too was not a pushover.

Strength is not striking power, so that feat doesn't matter unless Creed was using strength against Daredevil.

I am all for keeping those separate but you are acting like they have no relation with each other whatsoever. Creed has the raw speed, skill and viciousness to compliment his brute strength so I see no reason to believe he cannot hit or slash as hard.

Are you suggesting he doesn't? Since Post Crisis till now.

Deathstroke has always been Batman's physical superior unless I am missing something. Their fights have all but suggested that.

Bane has took hits from Azrael without much damage, and has this durability feat (Forever Evil Aftermath: Batman Vs. Bane)

Unless you are suggesting Azrael is stronger than Creed, I don't see why that really matters.

He probably didn't hit him with full force, but still considering its the Wrecker (even if you think it's an outlier, in universe characters don't think if Wrecker fighting a high tier is an outlier or not) he probably hit with a good portion of the Iron Fist.

Yeah but you don't need to be a high tier or even Venom tier to take hits from the Iron Fist since Danny doesn't always use Helicarrier and building busting levels of force. For what it's worth, Shang Chi too has taken them without exploding into a red puddle, so I wouldn't put it past a 10 tonner to replicate that.

Just because you classify The Wrecking Crew as class 50s doesn't mean they can't tussle with high tiers. You'd need proof to validate them being class 50 at max

Now granted I am not that well versed on them but they have never really been anything more than 50 tonner from whatever I have seen, consistently. They number of times they get beaten up by high tier street levellers outweigh the times I see them throw down with the Thing or Namor.

Also tussling with high tiers does not mean you are anywhere near that level. Batman has done that (as you know), Captain America has done that, Daredevil has done that and so forth.

Again, strength does not equal striking power which you need to hurt your opponent.

He was shattering the windshields of the mechs with those. How is that not a striking feat?

Batman overpowered Hawkgirl, casually held up a Croc's mouth (Crocs have a bite force of 1.7 tons), casually lifted a concrete column despite being beaten up, etc. He would overpower Matt in grapple without too much trouble.

I don't know how heavy the column was but the other two feats would make him a 3+ tonner. Which begs the question on whether you honestly believe Batman is that strong on a consistent basis or if these are just one of those street-level-high-end-but-not-quite-an-outlier feats. Daredevil has a few like this too, which would put him anywhere between 2 to 5 tons if we take them at face value. Feats like one shotting Tombstone, one shotting Gorgon, overturning a limo with three people inside, beating up Venom and so forth.

Batman is only overpowering him without too much trouble if we ignore similar feats from Daredevil's side. Also for what it's worth, Captain America could only restrain him with a choke hold thanks to his form being severely compromised by mind control, by his own admission. On a temporary basis, might I add.

Batman has tanked hits from the Heretic and Lady Shiva (both have feats of one-shotting Nightwing),

By tanking, you mean hurt but not enough to be go down right?.

took hits from Thangarians, took hits from Clayface with only a miniscule amount of blood drawn. Clayface can do stuff like this (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #15)

He can tank Matt's hits without much damage.

Not when we take a look at Matt's doing stuff like beating up The Nameless One (bulletproof and can throw around tractors with no effort), hurting Mr Hyde (who had just survived being hit by a van from Spider-man) and the Wrecker (who can cause a mini earthquake on a ship by leaping on it, enough to send DD flying away).

He will be tanking them in the sense that he will be hurt, but not KOed that easily.

So what they aren't similar? My argument is Bruce can predict Matt's moves as well. That's it.

Sure, due to his training which enables him to react to attacks subconsciously. Like any martial artist of his calibre. But I was asking if he can do it like Lady Shiva or Cassie Cain.

Depends on what you mean by complete mastery.

I mean does he have total control over his breathing, adrenaline, blood sugar level, minute muscle twitches when in combat mode?

I wasn't using saying it's a factor against move reading, just that he can easily move read Daredevil considering he's read the moves of someone much more skilled.

I wasn't saying he will be unable to read and predict him at all. I was asking if he can do it like Shiva.

How do his senses change the outcome of a skill battle so much? Both can move read, so I don't think either has a particular advantage in this aspect.

I didn't say it would be a game changer but it is an advantage however you cut it. Batman can "read moves" due to his extensive training, something Daredevil can do too. However unlike Bruce, he has his super senses to increase it's effectiveness by that much.

Are you talking about their fight when Danny was acting as Daredevil in a Daredevil costume or anything? Because there's context to that, Danny was emulating Matt's moves meaning Daredevil was essentially matching his own skills and moves. Which isn't impressive, for obvious reasons.

Danny was emulating Matt's moves but he wasn't using them exclusively. Also note that the guy can cut I-beams and telephone poles in half without his IF, so he definitely hits harder to boot.

They also had a very brief tussle in Miller's run, where neither landed any hits on the other.

All in all I see Bruce beating Daredevil fast enough to help Cass with Cap. Securing a win for team 1.

If this was with gear, I would probably agree but without it he doesn't have advantages to a degree where he would make short work of Matt before Cap beats Cassandra Cain. He is stronger, more skilled and durable but Matt is faster and more agile. I honestly think it can go either way.

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#23 Posted by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I think it would go either way if we are talking PC. But he would beat her Rebirth version.

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap would beat either one & Matt can at least hold his own for a long time.

Team Marvel wins decisvely.

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#26 Posted by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

It can always go either way when you are there my friend.

But he would beat her Rebirth version.

Yeah, that's not even debatable in my opinion.

Also this is a bit off topic but what are your thoughts on Rogers' skill as a fighter and martial artist? I read most, if not all non obscured comics with him, but to me, it seems like a lot of people have different views on his level of skill, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on how skilled do you think he is? Not that I'm trying to base my opinion off of other's, I'm just curious.

And do you think Cass is more skilled than Bruce or not? Because I haven't actually seen her do anything to prove she is better fighter.

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#27 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: It can always go either way when you are there my friend.

Heh :3.

Also this is a bit off topic but what are your thoughts on Rogers' skill as a fighter and martial artist? I read most, if not all non obscured comics with him, but to me, it seems like a lot of people have different views on his level of skill, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on how skilled do you think he is? Not that I'm trying to base my opinion off of other's, I'm just curious.

I think he is a bit underrated in this regard. I don't think he is as skilled as people like Iron Fist, PC Batman, Taskmaster but his enhanced mind and stats have given him quite an aptitude for learning and retaining skills much better than a normal human. I remember how he once mastered a fighting skill that would have taken anyone else decades to do so. Then there is him beat up Cache, who has catalogued every fighting skill there is. He did that due to incorporating his superior stats with his knowledge into a perfect blend.

So yeah, I would say he is around Daredevil's tier.

And do you think Cass is more skilled than Bruce or not? Because I haven't actually seen her do anything to prove she is better fighter.

Depends on how you define skill, though her move reading gives her a definite advantage over him.

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#28 Posted by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

I think he is a bit underrated in this regard. I don't think he is as skilled as people like Iron Fist, PC Batman, Taskmaster but his enhanced mind and stats have given him quite an aptitude for learning and retaining skills much better than a normal human.

Sure, never considered him to be on the same level as those three. Although the only one who actually has a large skill advantage compared to Rogers is Taskmaster. I do agree that Danny and Bruce are better martial artists and fighters, but I don't think they are too far above him. And yes, Rogers has this unique ability to quickly adapt to other fighting styles.

I remember how he once mastered a fighting skill that would have taken anyone else decades to do so. Then there is him beat up Cache, who has catalogued every fighting skill there is. He did that due to incorporating his superior stats with his knowledge as a perfect blend.

Ugh, yes. I think that showing is a bit underrated.

So yeah, I would say he is around Daredevil's tier.

LOL, my thoughts exactly. I think the two are on the same level of skill. Matt is a better trained fighter and his fighting style is more unique, but I would argue Rogers is as versatile and probably more adaptable and tactical fighter.

Depends on how you define skill, though her move reading gives her a definite advantage over him.

Skill is a bit hard to quantify when characters use different fighting techniques.

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#29 Posted by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I agree. It gets especially jarring when people think he is a glorified steroid junkie who is useless without his stats.

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#30 Posted by beatboks1 (9906 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman: dude Matt jas fought Namor like 3 times and tanked hits from him in 2. So since its canon yes I think he can take a hit from Namor. He does so by the fact that he can amticipate moves due to senses and rolls with them. Still takes a hell of a hit just reduces the impact.

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#31 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3703 posts) - - Show Bio

Darerica

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#32 Posted by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: LMAO people say that?! I had no idea.

Didn't he beat Crossbones and wreck multiple Super Soldiers while being depowered?

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#33 Edited by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Well he beat Crossbones after he just had the SS removed from his blood so his physical prowess wasn't yet diminished at the time. He did beat those super soldiers after reverting to his skinny sickly self, though.

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#34 Edited by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: I think it was at least to a degree. Or else he wouldn't say something like "I've beaten him without SSS" or "I can be Cap even without the drugs". If lack of SSS didn't affect him during the time, he wouldn't even say such a thing.

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#35 Posted by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I also assumed he said that out of self doubt rather than any actual shortcommings.

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#36 Edited by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: I'm pretty sure Rogers is more than aware of his physical capabilities and limitations to know whether he is weaker or not. I don't think he would feel any doubt without actually knowing it.

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#37 Posted by BruceRogers (17166 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Yeah but that was the first time he had the SS serum drained out of his body permanently so that could explain the self doubt. I am pretty he also stated that his muscle tone and strength would only start to atrophy after months of inactivity.

Maybe he wasnt in top shape but the lack of the serum wasnt really taking its toll.

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#38 Edited by KrleAvenger (26245 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@causeimbatman said:

I would argue Bruce would win through raw physicals and skill alone. Skillwise, what feats does Daredevil have above Batman? Or durability feats to tank Bruce’s hits that have been enough to treat Steel like tissue paper, one-shot a medium sized mecha, one-shot Green Arrow (who has tanked multiple blows from enraged Deathstroke), etc?

Are you suggesting that Batman can do more damage with one hit than Slade can do with multiple?

Are you referring to the instance in Green Arrow Volume 3 #4? Because that was a sucker punch.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper: Ollie was readying to fight the JLA, so he likely braced for any hits.

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#41 Posted by Nelomaxwell (14165 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel team wins.

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#42 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15640 posts) - - Show Bio

DC duo. I'd argue either beating Matt, and then them double teaming Cap. And that said, I actually think Cassie might be more favorable against Daredevil.

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#43 Posted by Grinningf0x (1466 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people are confusing « tanking » with « surviving » in this theead

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#44 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Either way, I am not suggesting he hit Daredevil with the same force but was merely showing you how classic Spidey too was not a pushover.

Fair enough. Regardless I still think Bruce can deal enough damage to take out Daredevil with a barrage of hits. Matt's feats against Spider-Man are impressive and suggest he can take a beating, but since Peter was holding back I don't see why a barrage of blows wouldn't finish him off.

I am all for keeping those separate but you are acting like they have no relation with each other whatsoever. Creed has the raw speed, skill and viciousness to compliment his brute strength so I see no reason to believe he cannot hit or slash as hard.

We'd need to see how well he applies his speed to his striking, and quantify how much his speed amps his striking. Which is why we need striking feats.

Deathstroke has always been Batman's physical superior unless I am missing something. Their fights have all but suggested that.

Let's see their fights:

  • Deathstroke, The Terminator #7 - Slade defeats Classic/Early Post Crisis Bruce, who is much wore physically than Mid-Late Post Crisis Batman
  • Detective Comics #710 - Slade beats Batman without too much trouble. Then in the same issue, Batman easily defeats Deathstroke
  • Deathstroke Vol. 3 #5 - Matches Slade
  • Batman Vol. 3 #28 - Batman stomps Deathstroke and Deadshot at the same time

This is why I don't like using fights. Slade beats Bruce easy, then Bruce beats him easy, and another time he matches, but in another instance he stomps Slade and Floyd at the same time. It just doesn't make sense. It's why I stick to consistent feats>>>>>>>>>>>fights, unless there's special context to why a fight would be applicable for determining a winner

Unless you are suggesting Azrael is stronger than Creed, I don't see why that really matters.

Azrael has ripped apart metal. He's probably not stronger than Creed but he's good enough that Bane taking hits from Azrael with no damage shows he won't be casually significantly dazed by Sabertooth.

Yeah but you don't need to be a high tier or even Venom tier to take hits from the Iron Fist since Danny doesn't always use Helicarrier and building busting levels of force. For what it's worth, Shang Chi too has taken them without exploding into a red puddle, so I wouldn't put it past a 10 tonner to replicate that.

Shang Chi is known as street tier, meanwhile The Wrecker has fought Hercules, Thor, The Thing etc. I highly doubt Danny wouldn't use on of his stronger hits on the Wrecker

Now granted I am not that well versed on them but they have never really been anything more than 50 tonner from whatever I have seen, consistently. They number of times they get beaten up by high tier street levellers outweigh the times I see them throw down with the Thing or Namor

They've more consistently been on mid tier level than street. Wrecker alone has faced Thing, Thor (multiple times), Beta Ray Bill, no selling hits from his own mid tier crowbar, etc. And as mentioned Thunderball has faced off Hulk and Namor. IDK, they might be too inconsistent to use in scaling

Also tussling with high tiers does not mean you are anywhere near that level. Batman has done that (as you know), Captain America has done that, Daredevil has done that and so forth.

Batman, Cap, Daredevil don't take hits from those high tiers then proceed to damage them back without much trouble.

I don't know how heavy the column was

Here's the size of the column (All Star Batman #13). Not precisely quantifiable but still pretty impressive.

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I don't know how heavy the column was but the other two feats would make him a 3+ tonner. Which begs the question on whether you honestly believe Batman is that strong on a consistent basis or if these are just one of those street-level-high-end-but-not-quite-an-outlier feats. Daredevil has a few like this too, which would put him anywhere between 2 to 5 tons if we take them at face value. Feats like one shotting Tombstone, one shotting Gorgon, overturning a limo with three people inside, beating up Venom and so forth.

one-shotting and beating up Spider Man level street levelers like Gorgon or Venom is an outlier unless you think Daredevil is suddenly spider-man level+. Anyway, I would wager Batman's strength feats are consistently 3+ tons. He's also matched Killer Croc (a guy that can casually treat metals like tissue paper with pure strength alone), overpowered Deathstroke, matched Clayface's strength, kept this large multi ton stone from falling (JLA: Our Worlds At War)

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By tanking, you mean hurt but not enough to be go down right?

Generally yes, but not with the feats you quoted. Here are the scans of tanking a kick from Lady Shiva with no damage whatsoever (Superman/Batman #3) and tanking hits from The Heretic with no damage as well (Batman Incorporated Vol. 2 #6)

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Not when we take a look at Matt's doing stuff like beating up The Nameless One (bulletproof and can throw around tractors with no effort)

Throwing around tractors isn't a durability feat. As for being bulletproof, I'm not sure how that's nearly as durable as Nightwing? Who's taken hits that bended metal without much damage. Or how is that nearly enough to replicate Clayface's feat of doing this (Detective Comics Vol. 2 #15)

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hurting Mr Hyde (who had just survived being hit by a van from Spider-man)

Spider-Man helped in the beating so it's not really a solo feat.

and the Wrecker (who can cause a mini earthquake on a ship by leaping on it, enough to send DD flying away).

Wrecker has tanked hits from Cap. Britian, withstood blow from Beta Ray Bill, a mjolnir throw, tanked his own crowbar (which has been enough to hurt Thing, Hercules, Colossus, etc), tanked hits from Thor in another instance, this is just PIS.

He will be tanking them in the sense that he will be hurt, but not KOed that easily.

Eh. Matt can cause pain, but he would need a massive pummeling to put Bruce down.

Sure, due to his training which enables him to react to attacks subconsciously. Like any martial artist of his calibre. But I was asking if he can do it like Lady Shiva or Cassie Cain

He likely does it like Cassie and Shiva, as he learned move reading from Shiva who taught Cassie move reading (Batgirl lost move reading at one point, so Shiva retaught it to her).

I mean does he have total control over his breathing, adrenaline, blood sugar level, minute muscle twitches when in combat mode?

He's never shown that in combat.

I wasn't saying he will be unable to read and predict him at all. I was asking if he can do it like Shiva

He can.

I didn't say it would be a game changer but it is an advantage however you cut it. Batman can "read moves" due to his extensive training, something Daredevil can do too. However unlike Bruce, he has his super senses to increase it's effectiveness by that much.

I'd need a reason why his super senses make his move reading is more effective than Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva's move reading.

Danny was emulating Matt's moves but he wasn't using them exclusively.

Proof?

Also note that the guy can cut I-beams and telephone poles in half without his IF, so he definitely hits harder to boot.

IIRC Matt only took one hit. Just one. I don't think Danny would use hits of that caliber against someone he doesn't know, since his durability might be shit tier.

They also had a very brief tussle in Miller's run, where neither landed any hits on the other.

If it's so brief I don't see why it's so impressive.

If this was with gear, I would probably agree but without it he doesn't have advantages to a degree where he would make short work of Matt before Cap beats Cassandra Cain. He is stronger, more skilled and durable but Matt is faster and more agile. I honestly think it can go either way.

You think Cap Vs Cassandra could go either way (which I agree to as well), so I don't see why Batman wouldn't beat Matt first. I don't think that fight could go either way when Bruce is too durable, way more skilled, with decently better striking power. Batman has more endurance too, seeing as how he fought through a shovel getting shoved through his guts. Then there's when he fought through his face getting cut through, getting pierced strait through his lungs multiple times, having his eyes get cut through and having his shoulders cut up. Speed is arguable, but even if Matt has the advantage -- one physical advantage isn't enough to compensate when Batman has every other advantage.

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#45 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper: Ollie was readying to fight the JLA, so he likely braced for any hits.

I don't think he was bracing, it looked more like he was making threat rather than preparing to fight.

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#46 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman said:

@danieldaripper: Ollie was readying to fight the JLA, so he likely braced for any hits.

I don't think he was bracing, it looked more like he was making threat rather than preparing to fight.

He was readying to shoot the arrow.

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#47 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper said:
@causeimbatman said:

@danieldaripper: Ollie was readying to fight the JLA, so he likely braced for any hits.

I don't think he was bracing, it looked more like he was making threat rather than preparing to fight.

He was readying to shoot the arrow.

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As a threat yes but I doubt he was actually gonna try to kill them for he threatened to blow the windows out. That would kill Wally and Arthur since they can't breathe in space.

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#48 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper: I mean Batman stated “You’d prefer he blew out the window?”

It seems writers intent he was at least ready to attack, at least he braced for any hit.

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#49 Edited by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@causeimbatman:

What were the size of these mechs? This size (Batwing #23)?

They were pretty large. I know I'm a bit late.

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New Avengers Vol 1 #16

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#50 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5288 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper: I mean Batman stated “You’d prefer he blew out the window?”

It seems writers intent he was at least ready to attack, at least he braced for any hit.

Good point, you win this debate.

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