Batman vs. Cassandra Cain

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#1  Edited By weaponx25

Many times its been argued over which is the better fighter. In this thread anything is allowed except guns in any place with any utilities. GO!

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#2  Edited By kidchipotle

Batman.................

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#3  Edited By nightwing737

B.U.M.P

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#4  Edited By NeonGameWave

The Dark Knight.

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#5  Edited By WaveMotionCannon

Cassie ftw

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#6  Edited By comicace3

Batman... No contest

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#7  Edited By Outside_85

Cassie

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#8  Edited By Jean199999

"anything is allowed except guns in any place with any utilities"

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Batman takes this.

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#9  Edited By HulkSlayerT1000

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

Batman.................

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The guy with the wonderful toys

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Batman can hold his own against her and, using his gadgets, can indeed win.

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#12  Edited By leonkarlen123

Batman by using combined martial arts styles

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Cassandra Cain H2H. Batman with gadgets & location advantage like the Batcave.

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#14  Edited By dondave

Cass

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Cass is the better fighter but Batman would win with superior intellect and gadgetry.

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Bruce.

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Bump

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@shenkuei said:

Cass is the better fighter but Batman would win with superior intellect and gadgetry.

This

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Batman beat her twice in all there serious matches once in sparring and only lost once when he was going easy on her there record is 2-1-1 batman (and that was without his toys ;))

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#20  Edited By Stormdriven

With his gear, I think Bruce edges it out 6-7/10

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#21  Edited By navyfelder

Batman...

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#22  Edited By NinjaWarrior268

Cassandra

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#23  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@username12345 said:

Batman beat her twice in all there serious matches once in sparring and only lost once when he was going easy on her there record is 2-1-1 batman (and that was without his toys ;))

This is false.

Batman "beat her" once, in the No Man's Land story-arc, when they were basically talking to each other through fighting, because Cassie could not talk at all, and that was the only way that she could speak to Batman properly:

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Cass was giving Bruce a message, not fighting him for real.

Batman's other "win" was in a sparring/training-session, and it was during the period when Cass had lost her Body-Reading, and even then, Cass managed to hit Bruce so fast, that he only realized it, when he started bleeding:

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With both at their peak, and fighting for real, Cass effortlessy dodged Batman's attacks, in a sparring/training-session that they had, after Cass had gotten her Body-Reading abillity back:

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They also fought breefly on Batman: Gotham Knights #5 - Locked; Hide and Seek they started fighting, because Batman was very angry, and he was about to kill The Key and Azrael (Jean-Paul Valley) and Cass tried to restrain Batman, but Bruce quickly toke down Azrael, and then he and Cass fought for a few panels, until Batman decided to flee:

The scans are in order, from right to left:

And the longest fight that they had, was on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love on which they were both under the influence of the soul drugg, which caused them to become more violent than the usual, they started provoking each other, until they started fighting.

The scans are in order, from the last to the first, and from right to left:

The fight ended in stallemate, but Batman had to use Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactic's, and he still couldn't beat her.

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@saren thoughts?

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@bat_girl_cc: but he still beat her. He won. She never beat him except in a sparring match. How could a tiny teen ager beat a 30 year old man who beats up bane, Wonder Woman, ect who can dig himself out of his own grave twice? Body reading won't help if batman puts his fist in her face.

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Dare I say Bruce with the almighty Bat_Girl_CC around?

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Bruce has had an upper hand through most of their encounters whether they're "just talking and not really fighting because Bruce came on top of their encounter"

Batman is on par with her in Hand to Hand if not significantly better. 127 martial arts compared to David Cain training are not the same

Cass has a speed feat or two generally compared to the likes of Superman but yknow, whatever.

Batman takes it

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#28  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@iragexcudder said:

Bruce has had an upper hand through most of their encounters whether they're "just talking and not really fighting because Bruce came on top of their encounter"

Batman is on par with her in Hand to Hand if not significantly better. 127 martial arts compared to David Cain training are not the same

Cass has a speed feat or two generally compared to the likes of Superman but yknow, whatever.

Batman takes it

Bruce beat Cass in a fight that wasn't really a fight, and in a sparring/training-session during the time that Cass hadn't her Body-Reading abillity.

With both at their peak, Cass dodged all of his attacks with a smile on her face, and in another ocasion she out-fighted him and forced him to flee.

And on the most prolonged fight that they had, it ended in stallemate, despite Bruce using everything he could to try beat her, while Cass was going Hand-to-Hand the whole time.

Also, Cass has stated in her thoughts, that Body-Reading > any amount of martial arts knowledge:

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@username12345 said:

@bat_girl_cc: but he still beat her. He won. She never beat him except in a sparring match. How could a tiny teen ager beat a 30 year old man who beats up bane, Wonder Woman, ect who can dig himself out of his own grave twice? Body reading won't help if batman puts his fist in her face.

He never beat her either, unless you acknowledge Cass sending Bruce a message, as a legit win...or if you acknowledge a sparring/training-session on which Cass hadn't her Body-Reading abillity, which is her main asset, as note-worthy win for Batman...with both at their peak, its clear that Cass > Batman, even with his Gear and Gadgets, he still couldn't beat her, and i gave you issue's numbers, and posted full scans.

Age doesn't matter much in comics, unless its hundreds of years difference (The Sensei) and Batman beating Wonder Woman its obvious WIS, Batman is a street-leveler, Wonder Woman is a high-tier, she should be able to speed-Blitz him and punch him to the moon, without much effort...and if you wanna talk about WIS, Cass has beaten Bizarro-Supergirl in Hand-to-Hand, and saved the real Supergirl's life in the process, who had gotten curbstomped by Bizarro-Supergirl...Cass once also oneshotted a giant monster that was smacking Superboy around.

" Body reading won't help if batman puts his fist in her face. "

Actually Body-Reading prevents you from doing just that...that's the whole point of being able to read Body-Language fluently, something that only Cass can do, due to the way that she was raised and trained:

No Caption Provided

Also, when i last replyed to you, i posted scans of a sparring/training-session between Bruce and Cass, that shows this perfectly.

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#29  Edited By ComicStooge

Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

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Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

" He can hold his own CQC "

Nope, with both at their peak, its not close in Hand-to-Hand, we have 3 exemples that show that.

" and win with his superior intellect/gadgets "

That's very debatable, since it has already happened on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and it ended in stallemate.

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@comicstooge said:

Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

" He can hold his own CQC "

Nope, with both at their peak, its not close in Hand-to-Hand, we have 3 exemples that show that.

" and win with his superior intellect/gadgets "

That's very debatable, since it has already happened on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and it ended in stallemate.

You're telling me he's just gonna get steamrolled? Yeah no, he can go for a while

In that stalemate, he only used flashbangs, batarangs and the occasional environmental object. He didn't use tasers, tranquilizers, gas, sonics etc. Not only that, but he even said himself that they "both needed" the fight or something similar, so of course he woldn't have used anything too powerful.

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#32  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@comicstooge said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

@comicstooge said:

Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

" He can hold his own CQC "

Nope, with both at their peak, its not close in Hand-to-Hand, we have 3 exemples that show that.

" and win with his superior intellect/gadgets "

That's very debatable, since it has already happened on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and it ended in stallemate.

You're telling me he's just gonna get steamrolled? Yeah no, he can go for a while

In that stalemate, he only used flashbangs, batarangs and the occasional environmental object. He didn't use tasers, tranquilizers, gas, sonics etc. Not only that, but he even said himself that they "both needed" the fight or something similar, so of course he woldn't have used anything too powerful.

Nope, i think that its not a stomp, i just don't see it as being a very even fight, as it was showed when Cass got her Body-Reading back, Bruce couldn't even land one hit one her...and when they fought after Cass had lost her Body-Reading, Cass still hit him so fast that he didn't even saw it...the point is, with both at their peak, i just don't see it as being very close in pure Hand-to-Hand.

As for their fight on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love sure, its just one exemple, but its the best one that we have, and Batman stated that although they were both drugged, the drugg wasn't as powerful as the villain thought it would be, so neither was really going all out, though they were more violent than the usual.

What Batman could or could not do, we can't know for sure...what we do know, is that they stallemated under the conditions, that you're saying that he would win.

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@comicstooge said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

@comicstooge said:

Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

" He can hold his own CQC "

Nope, with both at their peak, its not close in Hand-to-Hand, we have 3 exemples that show that.

" and win with his superior intellect/gadgets "

That's very debatable, since it has already happened on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and it ended in stallemate.

You're telling me he's just gonna get steamrolled? Yeah no, he can go for a while

In that stalemate, he only used flashbangs, batarangs and the occasional environmental object. He didn't use tasers, tranquilizers, gas, sonics etc. Not only that, but he even said himself that they "both needed" the fight or something similar, so of course he woldn't have used anything too powerful.

Nope, i think that its not a stomp, i just don't see it as being a very even fight, as it was showed when Cass got her Body-Reading back, Bruce couldn't even land one hit one her...and when they fought after Cass had lost her Body-Reading, Cass still hit him so fast that he didn't even saw it...the point is, with both at their peak, i just don't see it as being very close in pure Hand-to-Hand.

As for their fight on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love sure, its just one exemple, but its the best one that we have, and Batman stated that although they were both drugged, the drugg wasn't as powerful as the villain thought it would be, so neither was really going all out, though they were more violent than the usual.

What Batman could or could not do, we can't know for sure...what we do know, is that they stallemated under the conditions, that you're saying that he would win.

Bruce has been able to see characters a hell of a lot faster than Cass, so him not being able to even see her moves is a bit of weird writing, IMO.

Bruce stalemated her because he wanted to fight to resolve some sort of issue between the two, IIRC. If he really wanted to end it, he would've tazed her or gassed her or put her down with sonics.

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Bruce.

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split

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#36  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@comicstooge said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

@comicstooge said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

@comicstooge said:

Bruce. He can hold his own CQC and win with his superior intellect/gadgets.

" He can hold his own CQC "

Nope, with both at their peak, its not close in Hand-to-Hand, we have 3 exemples that show that.

" and win with his superior intellect/gadgets "

That's very debatable, since it has already happened on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love and it ended in stallemate.

You're telling me he's just gonna get steamrolled? Yeah no, he can go for a while

In that stalemate, he only used flashbangs, batarangs and the occasional environmental object. He didn't use tasers, tranquilizers, gas, sonics etc. Not only that, but he even said himself that they "both needed" the fight or something similar, so of course he woldn't have used anything too powerful.

Nope, i think that its not a stomp, i just don't see it as being a very even fight, as it was showed when Cass got her Body-Reading back, Bruce couldn't even land one hit one her...and when they fought after Cass had lost her Body-Reading, Cass still hit him so fast that he didn't even saw it...the point is, with both at their peak, i just don't see it as being very close in pure Hand-to-Hand.

As for their fight on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love sure, its just one exemple, but its the best one that we have, and Batman stated that although they were both drugged, the drugg wasn't as powerful as the villain thought it would be, so neither was really going all out, though they were more violent than the usual.

What Batman could or could not do, we can't know for sure...what we do know, is that they stallemated under the conditions, that you're saying that he would win.

Bruce has been able to see characters a hell of a lot faster than Cass, so him not being able to even see her moves is a bit of weird writing, IMO.

I don't think that its bad-writting, Lady Shiva once, also kicked Batman so fast that he couldn't even see it (Batman stated it on his thoughts) and Tim Drake once stated that Lady Shiva is the fastest fighter that he ever saw, even faster than Batman...that, despite Bruce having performed many crazy-impressive speed-feats...in my opinion, the reason for this (appart from skill) is that crazy skilled martial-artist's can sometimes appear to have super-human speed in close quarters.

Also, Cass has many feats of moving too fast to be seen, dodging bullets after they've been fired, etc, she has even out-raced a bullet on panel, once...so, i don't think, that she moving too fast for Batman to see, is something too far fetched, specially, since they were fighting in close quarters.

Bruce stalemated her because he wanted to fight to resolve some sort of issue between the two, IIRC. If he really wanted to end it, he would've tazed her or gassed her or put her down with sonics.

I don't know about that, Bruce blew up a entire bridge (i posted the scans of their fight on a early post above) among other things, i think that neither was like, "morals-off", but they were trying to beat the other, also this thread is about both being "in character".

* Edit *

I just now saw in the OP that anything goes here...still, all evidence points to this fight being very even, regardless of the winner, and those are pretty much my thoughts.

I know that you're trying to be fair here, and i only replyed because you seemed "too sure" that Bruce should win under this conditions, when they have stallemated under similar conditions.

Anyway, this is/should be a flip a coin, scenario.

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Toss up.

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@bat_girl_cc: I've just done some digging and batman has beaten opponents that far far far out class cass. Batman has a positive record against lady shiva and deathsroke but cass has a negative record (0-2 against Deathstroke iirc and 1-2 against shiva) batman has stalemated Karate kid twice and has beaten sensei through will power and toughness and batman has stalemated bronze tiger and Richard dragon. Batman has gone through the same training cass has gone through (David Cain) so batman should have a small amount of this "superman busting super power". And for the record if a fist is in her face she can't read his body movements because she wouldn't be able to see.

I'll give you 3 ways batman can beat her in h2h:

1) Fight defensively because offense isn't Cassandra's forte

2) batman could say "screw it" to skill and just pummel her, she wouldn't predict that

3) use stealth "(s)he won't expect an attack from above, they never do" -batman Arkham origins

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Cassie is widely accepted as the better h2h fighter but batman is also a master. His major strength advantage over her will help. He is also more adept at using gadgets and his terrain to his advantage. I give this to bats

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#41  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@username12345 said:

@bat_girl_cc: I've just done some digging and batman has beaten opponents that far far far out class cass. Batman has a positive record against lady shiva and deathsroke but cass has a negative record (0-2 against Deathstroke iirc and 1-2 against shiva) batman has stalemated Karate kid twice and has beaten sensei through will power and toughness and batman has stalemated bronze tiger and Richard dragon. Batman has gone through the same training cass has gone through (David Cain) so batman should have a small amount of this "superman busting super power". And for the record if a fist is in her face she can't read his body movements because she wouldn't be able to see.

I'll give you 3 ways batman can beat her in h2h:

1) Fight defensively because offense isn't Cassandra's forte

2) batman could say "screw it" to skill and just pummel her, she wouldn't predict that

3) use stealth "(s)he won't expect an attack from above, they never do" -batman Arkham origins

Everything that you just said its incorrect IIRC

I don't know where you have been digging, but you are digging in the wrong places, that's for sure.

" I've just done some digging and batman has beaten opponents that far far far out class cass. "

Who are those opponents?

" Batman has a positive record against lady shiva and deathsroke but cass has a negative record (0-2 against Deathstroke iirc and 1-2 against shiva) "

All wrong.

In 1-on-1 fights:

- Against Deathstroke, Batman has 1 win and 3 losses (i don't remember the issue numbers right now, but i can get them, if you need proof)...while, Cass and Deathstroke stallemated 3 times (the first time was on Nightwing #81 - Venn Diagram, Part 2: Friends Under Fire the second time, was on Batgirl #63 - Could've Been, Part One: Nowadays and the third time, was on Teen Titans #45 - Titans East Part 3)

- Against Lady Shiva, Batman has 1 win (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies) 1 stallemate (Batman #427 - A Death In the Family Part 2) and 1 loss (Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion)...while Cass has 2 wins, 1 stallemate, and 2 losses (all on Batgirl volume 1)

- Against David Cain, Batman has 1 win (Bruce Wayne: Fugitive) and 1 stallemate (During the No Man's Land story-arc)...while Cass has 2 wins (the first was on Batman #567 - Mark of Cain Part 1 and the second was on Batgirl #6 - Redemption Road, Chapter Six: The Great Gray Dragon)

" batman has stalemated Karate kid twice "

Cass has never fought Karate Kid, though, any kind of stallemate, or anyhting close to it, from a street-leveler against Karate Kid, has to be considered PIS/WIS, because K.K fights Superman level characters in Hand-to-Hand, on a daily-basis, Batman lasting even half a second, in Hand-to-Hand, against someone that can move at light-speeds, its PIS. (Cass, also has feats like that, and yeah, its PIS).

" and has beaten sensei through will power and toughness "

Right...that, and the The Suit of Sorrows which considerably amps the overall stats, of the one who wears it...and still, The Sensei was literally murdering Batman, until he runned out of stamina.

" and batman has stalemated bronze tiger and Richard dragon. "

Cass was shown, in a flash-back, one-shotting Bronze Tiger, in a sparring/training-session, as part of her training under David Cain

No Caption Provided

And Cass has never fought Richard Dragon, so we can't compare.

" Batman has gone through the same training cass has gone through (David Cain) so batman should have a small amount of this "superman busting super power" "

Nope, Batman received regular training from David Cain, like he has received from many other people (Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, etc)...Cassandra had to be trained since birth, she wasn't taught how to speak, or how to write, etc. Those areas of her brain, were trained so she could read Body-Language fluently, while Batman only started his training after he was 12, he already was a normal boy, so the training that Cass received, could not be attempted with Batman, as it would not work:

No Caption Provided

Besides, Cass was Ra's All Ghul desire, to create the best assassin/body-guard, possible...David Cain even managed to have Lady Shiva, having Cass, so the child (Cass) would have a better chance of success.

" And for the record if a fist is in her face she can't read his body movements because she wouldn't be able to see. "

The problem with that logic, is that Batman, wouldn't be able to land "a fist in her face" to begin with:

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" I'll give you 3 ways batman can beat her in h2h: "

Ok

" 1) Fight defensively because offense isn't Cassandra's forte "

Wrong again, Batman himself has stated that her offense is good, the problem was her defense (because Cass, had lost her Body-Reading, which she has here)

No Caption Provided

" batman could say "screw it" to skill and just pummel her, she wouldn't predict that. "

Cass can detect others emotions just by looking at them, on Batgirl #40 - Little Bat Cass figured out that Superboy was in love with her, just by looking at him, if Batman tried something like that, she would know.

" use stealth "(s)he won't expect an attack from above, they never do" -batman Arkham origins. "

How would he use stealth against Cass in close quarters?...Cass has been stated to coordinate her actions at a pace, that should be humanly impossible to do...plus, Cass dodges bullets after they've been fired, with ease:

No Caption Provided

Batman would never be fast enough to surprise her, and much less in close quarters.

Besides, Cass is always aware and ready:

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Bruce in a close one

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Pokeysteve

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Cass is definitely the better fighter but Bruce beats her with gear.

The soul drug fight made it clear that they both had some steam to let off which is why it went for as long as it did. Not really a feat for either of them.

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lamdaddy20

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Cass is a better fighter

Bruce with gear makes it a little more tricky

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username12345

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@bat_girl_cc: batman never lost to shiva in any encounters, they only stalemated or batman won, and batman beats Deathstroke a lot (Arkham origins, beware the batman, there rematch, superman batman annual, son of batman, the iOS arkham city, forever evil iirc) Deathstroke only beat batman once barely. Batman treats David like a jobber. KK never beat a superman level opponent he only held his own with "super judo" (which batman has done, Batman superman worlds finest/ JLA war in there "rematch") KK was sick in one but the other one batman was winning before they were interrupted. KK >>>>>>> cass. the suit of sorrows belongs to Michael Lane (Azreal, who batman has beaten) Bronze tiger is a bad example now because he lost to catman, I'll give you that. Richard dragon > cass but I never said they fought before I just said he could beat her.

Depending on the version Batmans parents died at 8 the same time cass started training. When some one starts training isn't the point anyways, any one could beat up Damian wayne and he started when he was 6, she iirc only trained with David, batman trained with everyone.

Ras wanted batman to be his daughters wife and admitted he is the best (that tends to happen when you get stabbed in the chest)

The fist in her face logic is why batman held his own against KK and why catman beat up bronze tiger she can't see if he's up close and smashing her nose in. Lets face it if they're super close she's dead batman is to darn big.

1 he said it was "fine" + cass can't use body reading if she is on the offensive. Batman defense >>> Cassandra's offense that's a fact

2 she doesn't know normal boxing/ street fighting so she SHOULDN'T be able to recognize those kinds of moves since she only knows martial arts, once again that is also how batman and catman were able to beat opponents that should have similar abilities to cass

3 batman dodges bullets all the time

batman >>>>>>>>> a bullet and Deathstroke in stealth

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DarthAznable

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Batman.

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ComiKing24

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Batman has more experience than Cassie, but her Body Reading gives her the slim advantage. Unless Bruce can find a counter to her Body Reading, Batman would most likely lose after an extremely tough fight. I would say that she doesn't have her Body Reading, but this thread was made 2 years ago so that was invalid at the time.Cassandra Cain a.k.a Batgirl wins 6/10.

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lxlGiftedlxl

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Ill say batman with gear.

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username12345

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#50  Edited By username12345

I have a question, how did she lose her body reading to begin with?