batman versus moonknight

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Boken

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#1  Edited By Boken

who would win.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#2  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Good fight but details are needed. How full is the moon? Prep? Where are they fighting? Equipment?

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Boken

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#3  Edited By Boken

i talking about a full free for all. no one is limeted and since they both come out at night, it's midnight.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#4  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Details.

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Boken

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#5  Edited By Boken

its a full moon and they are both freash and ready to kill each other. if bats wins then the bat family will be saves, if knight wins then his girl is safe. so there both trying to keep the thing they love the most alive. in other words there pissed.

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Sling Shot

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#6  Edited By Sling Shot

I'm gonna do the unpopular thing and say MoonKnight because of his full moon advantage. The speculation about Batman's ability to trump almost any character with prep time is oft times to ambiguous for me to consider it good writing.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#7  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

He doesn't need prep to win and what do you mean it's too ambiguous? When he has time to make a plan and build things, he usually wins.

I wanted to know about the moon to see how strong/fast/agile Moon Knight was. I wanted to know about prep to know if they would have a plan, knowledge of their opponent's weaknesses and additional equipment or maybe if only one got prep. I wanted to know where they were fighting to see if Batman would be able to use his knowledge of the environment or weapons stashed around the city (if Gotham) or if Moon Knight would have the home field advantage. I wanted to know about equipment to know if Moon Knight would have his adamantium gear and or vehicle.

I think Batman could take Moon Knight under a full moon. I don't know how much he's jacked up under a full moon, but it would have to be significant (superhuman) for it to let him take Batman. Adamantium armor would definitely help when fighting hand to hand but I don't know if that's standard or in the battle. Batman also carries explosives that can be used for distraction as well as knock out gas, so even with armor, Batman can get around it. I think all or most of the things I asked about would have to be in Moon Knight's favor for him to win. I don't think just one (full moon) is enough.
Post Edited:2007-05-08 02:05:50

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Sling Shot

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#8  Edited By Sling Shot

I agree one full moon isn't enough. But Iv'e noticed that when people start taking inventory of Batman and his strategy for a win they usually discount all the weapons in the arsenal of the opponent.

In a text format it can be persuasive,to the untrained mind, to state the strengths of one character and minimize or disregard what the other brings to the table.
Post Edited:2007-05-08 02:11:50
Post Edited:2007-05-08 02:12:04

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Sling Shot

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#9  Edited By Sling Shot

Why would Bats win without preptime?

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BuckshotWasHere

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#10  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

I hope you're not saying that I'm trying to sell MK short by not talking about his equipment. I mentioned the adamantium armor. MK also has projectiles and grappling hooks but I didn't mention those because Batman has them as well (and can use them better) so there's no advantage there. The only other thing he has that Batman doesn't (that I know of) is an adamantium staff. I didn't mention it because I didn't think it was important. Batman could easily disarm him like he does everyone else and I don't think that just because it's adamantium that it would hit him harder than a regular staff, just that it wouldn't break. Batman could get around it. I asked about his equipment but got no answer, if anyone is discounting MK's arsenal, it's boken.

Batman would win without prep time because of what I said. I did the battle as if he didn't have prep since it wasn't stated. Basically what I said was that Batman's fighting ability and weapons (KO gas and explosives/sonics/flash grenades) would give him the win, and he has those things on him all the time. No prep needed. The major difference I see with prep is that Batman would get knowledge on Moon Knight, meaning he would know that he wasn't right in the head, he'd know his military training and fighting ability, he'd know about his equipment, and be able to plan for all of this. He'd know to use mind games, fighting styles MK is unfamiliar with, and he'd know (before having to punch it) that his armor is indestructible. That's not including machines or specialized (how, I don't know) weapons or traps or anything else he could do with extra time.

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Sling Shot

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#11  Edited By Sling Shot

In the same token MK being faster,stronger,more endurance than BM,by an uknown factor but without lunar augmentation MK is

ranked at olympic level, being one of the best H to H combatnts in the world,an array of high-tech weaponry including an:

Adamantium staff, a truncheon which could fire a cable line, and gauntlets which could fire his crescent darts. Lately he has been

using spiked knuckles, worn on the left hand. As Marc Spector he wielded various firearms, and would occasionally employ them in

his Moon Knight identity as well. Wait there's more.

Due to his multiple personalities he is also resistant to some psychic attacks and he also has the power of prophetic visions.That could give a nice advantage

He is able to take mortal damage and continue fighting, without any apparent immediate suffering, though it may take its toll later.

Because BM doesn't know his opponent, He could make a strike that could believably be parried by the enhanced, well armored, skilled MK. Which could spell doom for Bats.

I don't think you purposely sold MK short, but the explanation of equipment that BM totes around nd the fact he is a good fighter doesn't seem enough when MK is properly represented. Superior physical prowess, possibly equal fighting skills and equipment, near inhuman resilience and drive. And wait for it...psychic defenses and prophetic flashes.

I think a perfectly viable case could be made for MK.


Post Edited:2007-05-08 02:50:53
Post Edited:2007-05-08 02:53:27

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BuckshotWasHere

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#12  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Batman's beaten loads of people who were physically superior. I've seen nothing that puts MK near Batman in fighting ability. I said I didn't know much about his equipment but from what I do know, he doesn't have an edge there. "High-tech weaponry". Vague. Adamantium staff. Addressed in previous post. Cable line shooter. Addressed in previous post (I called it a grappling hook). Crescent darts. Addressed in previous post (called "projectiles" and were compared to batarangs). Spiked knuckles. Meaningless against Batman's armor and they've been dealt with before. Firearms. Primarily used when not fighting as Moon Knight and "occasionally" as Moon Knight but not standard so not included (this is why I asked for equipment). Psychic defenses mean nothing when Batman isn't using psychic attacks. Going into all this detail doesn't dig up many advantages and the few there are (physical superiority) aren't enough.

EDIT: Missed something. The prophetic flashes (from what I know) aren't in-battle like spider-sense so no advantage there. The biggest thing is the ability to take mortal damage. However, knock gas would still work, nerve strikes would still work and other attacks that he can't fight through (because his body no longer works) avoid that advantage. Also, Batman could just avoid him until the pain catches up.
Post Edited:2007-05-08 03:06:53

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Sling Shot

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#13  Edited By Sling Shot

I beg to differ. And how did Bats beat these physically superior oponents? Could it be skill? Because MK has that. Just because you haven't read MK beating up Penguin. Doesn't mean he couldn't. This isn't about the writers interpretation, and sometimes bad writing. This is about the descriptions of the characters posed against each other. We are the writers. And prior rep is not an overwhelming factor.

MK's superior reflexes and possible equal fighting skills coupled with projectiles that are released like a gun as opposed to thrown, which takes longer, prophetic flashes or precog ability if you will.

Thats not all of his arsenal but that alone puts MK on top.
Post Edited:2007-05-08 03:12:59

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BuckshotWasHere

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#14  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

You say his skill is possibly equal, where does that come from? Does Moon Knight know at least 127 martial arts? Do other heroes come to him to learn to fight? What makes you think that they're equal?

"Released like a gun." Batman dodges bullets regularly, do better. He's fought people who were physically superior and won before. How much stronger/faster does he get anyway? Show me him using his prophetic vision in battle. I haven't seen them used in battle.

What more does he have?

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Sling Shot

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#15  Edited By Sling Shot

Wow. How does unsuper BM dodge so many bullets I wonder? Does he have prophetic flashes informing him of his opponents next move? Because that is very much a possibility for Konshu's avatar MK.

And it is listed in MK's abilities that he is one of the best HtoH combatants on earth. I guess he would have to be to keep winning fights; primarily with his hands.

He probably could teach up and comers how to fight better, it just hasn't been a part of his story.

Nothing you have presented seems to give BM the edge for the win.

Who doesn't dodge bullets in comics. But when the shooter is superhumanly fast on the draw it could make a difference.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#16  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Show me these prophetic visions acting like battle precog since you've apparently seen it.

A lot of people are called a lot of things, what's there to back it up? Just saying he's one of the best isn't enough. Usually when you say something like, "He's one of the best" there's some way to prove it. I could say Daredevil is one of the best and I'd use him beating 100 assassins in less than 3 minutes with nothing more than a walking stick as evidence. When I say Batman is one of the best it's because I've seen him take on (and usually beat or come out even with) the other people who are called some of the best and have pages of h2h combat, or because I've seen him take out legions of ninjas, or because he knows over 100 kinds of martial arts, or because he's beaten people who he shouldn't be able to beat if he didn't have amazing skill, or because when super heroes need training they go to him, or because he's known all across his Earth for his skill. What do you have for Moon Knight?

Why doesn't knock out gas or blinding/deafening bombs coupled with nerve strikes and fighting ability that has put down superheroes give him the edge?

I still don't know how strong Moon Knight gets a full moon.

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gmanfromheck

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#17  Edited By gmanfromheck

Unfortunately since I love Moon Knight so much but I gotta say it, in the last issue of Moon Knight he mentions that he doesn't have the moon strength anymore. He says he's on his own. Which is funny because for being in physical therapy after having his legs busted, he's kicking more @$$ now than he did before. Guess that's the crazy in him.

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Savanna

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#18  Edited By Savanna

Im not a fan of either. But from seeing them both, at comic stores or friends who have the issues. Batman tends to carry the heavier equipment. Batman uses it much more to his advantage and for"out the box thinking". Not to mention "he has all those wonderful toys" ie. batmoblie ,batcycle, batplane, batjetpack, he most likely as bat rollerblades and toliet paper.

What is this so called prep time thing? Batman does not need prep time at, at anytime, to give him more time is a sure way to a defeat.

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The WeatherMan

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#19  Edited By The WeatherMan

Batman slowed down Superman and kept him busy for almost a minute, without more than five minutes preparation. Saw it with my own eyes in "Hush".

I think he got way more than needed to take down Moon Knight.

1

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#20  Edited By Savanna

Photon says:

"Batman slowed down Superman and kept him busy for almost a minute, without more than five minutes preparation. Saw it with my own eyes in "Hush". I think he got way more than needed to take down Moon Knight. 1"

Is that the issue where superman get taken over by posion ivy, and batman says that the diffence between him and superman?

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Boken

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#21  Edited By Boken

i say moon night just beacuse he has been trashing guy's for the last few issues.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#22  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Batman trashes guys every issue.

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The_Martian

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#23  Edited By The_Martian

This fight is going to come down to situtation. Like Buckshot said in his 1st post how full is the moon? If it is no moon I would probably give it to Batman in most cases. But if it is full I may give it to Moonknight in most cases. Somewhere in the middle they would probably be a good match up.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#24  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

The moon alone is not enough, plus, according to G-Man, the moon doesn't help him any more.

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JackFlag

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#25  Edited By JackFlag

You could say they wanna kill each other, but MK will always be more vicious. If he had full moon strength and neither had prep, I'd give it to him. Batman's one true advantage is in his tactical tools, but Marc was a damn tough soldier and mercenary, I wouldn't count him out 'cause of any gas or smoke pellets.
Post Edited:2007-05-08 13:56:28

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BuckshotWasHere

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#26  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

His "gas or smoke pellets" have put down people tougher than any amped up Moon Knight. MK may be more vicious, but Batman will always be smarter.

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#27  Edited By JackFlag

Gas CAN put down MK. But I think you're gonna have to try a little harder than throwing little explosives at him, he's had extensive training in survival, strategy, and combat.

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The_Martian

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#28  Edited By The_Martian

Buckshot says:

"The moon alone is not enough, plus, according to G-Man, the moon doesn't help him any more."
Oh really? I didn't know that.
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#29  Edited By JackFlag

That's disputable, according to the Battle Damage Report, and in the latest issue he didn't outright say he couldn't get it again. In any case, I use "if" when talking about his powers.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#30  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Why would he have to try harder? Knock out gas will put him down. Sonics will deafen and disorient him. Flash bangs will blind him. Batman can get close enough to use all of these. You admitted that they will work, so that means if they're used MK will go down. The only way for him to avoid them is to prevent their use. How will he do that?

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JackFlag

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#31  Edited By JackFlag

Because any trained soldier worth their salt knows ways to fight so that you don't just sit in place and have a ton load of crap thrown at you or nearby enough to affect you. MK has a decent arsenal and the skills to at least stop it, whether you think he'd even be able to clinch a match or not.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#32  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

So MK is going to fight Batman without being within hearing or seeing range right?

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#33  Edited By JackFlag

The skills to stop it, means.......the ability to prevent them from taking effect. Not being immune or irrelevant to them. It's okay if you figure that Batman would win every time, but MK would never be a pushover. The least of Bat's concerns would be time for pouch digging or back pocket pulling.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#34  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Maybe I'm not getting it. Batman carries knock out gas. Knock out gas will knock MK out. MK can't stop him from using it. How does that not work? I'm not saying that it will be an easy battle. Batman would probably start with hand to hand combat, then seeing that MK is a decent fighter and is (assuming the moon gives him powers) stronger and faster, he'd need to consider switching tactics. I think he could still take him in a fight, but say he chooses to use his other weapons, what stops MK from going down? Can he stop Batman from taking them out? Can he resist them once they're out? Can he get out of range before they're used? Does he even know what those little pellets are when they come into play? Once Batman decides to use his other weapons, it stops being a difficult battle since there's no way for MK to avoid them.

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The_Martian

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#35  Edited By The_Martian

I don't get it either. I have to go with Batman taking this fight most of the time.

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#36  Edited By Sync

JackFlag says:

"Gas CAN put down MK. But I think you're gonna have to try a little harder than throwing little explosives at him, he's had extensive training in survival, strategy, and combat."

How about drolets that eletrcute the area, or droplets that make high picth sounds, or the old time favoite use today plaine old smoke...."im more than able to name many many more, and even more uses if needed"

Mk is good dam could, but bat is his worst nightmare come to life.

Batman has already done what mk done, ten times better and over again.

Mk is not a master planner like batman.

i do not see mk even using the envioment to his advanatge as batman would, MK"that batrang that miss, that making that nosie ..oh let me guess it going to blow up and be the building down",...BM" using his cable to zoom off, say no as the batplane homes in on the siganl at mach 4 all weapons arm" MK "oh $hit"

thats the level batman plays on, the ever clever ever changing plans that work always to his advantage.

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gmanfromheck

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#37  Edited By gmanfromheck

spiderman621 says:

"Buckshot says:
"The moon alone is not enough, plus, according to G-Man, the moon doesn't help him any more."
Oh really? I didn't know that."

In issue #9, he tells Frenchie's boyfriend, "I had this...moon thing. Depending on how full the moon was, I got a little, I don't know...tougher. Faster. Stronger. But it didn't last. And I have to get by on my own now."

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Sling Shot

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#38  Edited By Sling Shot

I don't know basing battles off of what has happened in a characters comic as opposed to their bio has a unbalanced playing field.

DC known for their more outrageous fantastical reputation have put BM in situations that MK hasn't had the pleasure of stretching in the audiences imagination yet. Also BM's fanbase started in the 40's and he is more popular.

So is this a highschool election or a battle simulation, because there is a difference. Their stats should be deciding factors.

Iv'e posted this numerous times yet it seems many of the posters don't read all the posts.

That can take derail and misrepresent a convo, for future ref.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#39  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

I don't think following stats and handbooks alone is the way to go. They're a guide, they don't overrule what actually happens in comics. Their purpose is to give a basic understanding of characters but they often underrate characters and don't always reflect important power stunts that a character might do. The comics are usually more accurate when taken as a whole. Of course comics are subject to bad writing and the requirements of plot. That's why there should be a balance. If you go only by stats then someone like Taskmaster or Echo would be unbeatable in hand to hand combat, and Karate Kid couldn't beat super powered opponents. If you go by only high showings then Spider-Man can beat Firelord, Wolverine has a shot at Thanos, and Batman can walk away from a fight with Darkseid. "Evidence" in vs battles should come from a combination of stats and comics, and comic feats should represent the character where they are the majority of the time, not only their high or low points. Those should be included for consideration but what's most common should take precedence.

Just stats and handbooks saying someone is a good fighter isn't enough. The comics should agree with that. If someone is really that good, there should be more than enough to show for it.

Using what I said before:

"A lot of people are called a lot of things, what's there to back it up? Just saying he's one of the best isn't enough. Usually when you say something like, "He's one of the best" there's some way to prove it. I could say Daredevil is one of the best and I'd use him beating 100 assassins in less than 3 minutes with nothing more than a walking stick as evidence. When I say Batman is one of the best it's because I've seen him take on (and usually beat or come out even with) the other people who are called some of the best and have pages of h2h combat, or because I've seen him take out legions of ninjas, or because he knows over 100 kinds of martial arts, or because he's beaten people who he shouldn't be able to beat if he didn't have amazing skill, or because when super heroes need training they go to him, or because he's known all across his Earth for his skill. What do you have for Moon Knight?"
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#40  Edited By Sync

If i may?

People go of what they know. The comics define who the charcther is or what they do, or may be capable of doing. They are comics , so things acn be far out there, but to dismiss them or say they should not happen is not the way, they are comics, heros/villians doing epic things.

I agree that they should be used as a base, infomation. Some of us have more knowledge of these things than other. I hope and try to give the benefits of both in the question of this post(batman vs moonknight)

The worst is that diffent people can view certian sceens out of comics diffent ways or that anyone can find a pic or whatnot to support a cause. Merit must be given to all accounts/info/evidence, from all cannon sources, and even non cannon should be given a little amount of merit.

In this as stated batman begin in the 1940's, and most charcthers from other comics have been kncok offs of him"imo".

Its a sad fact but thats just the way it is. Someone uses batman as a temlapte and goes from there. So is it really fair to try to compare a charcther that is base off themselves.

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Final Arrow

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#41  Edited By Final Arrow

Batman just

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#42  Edited By Jynx

First, a few points: Batman has done battle with many individuals possessing superhuman powers near, at and beyond the level of Moon Knight (assuming you're counting his "moon powers" as part of this battle). Among them, I believe the most relevant to be Killer Croc. With enhanced strength, speed, reflexes and durability, it becomes obvious that it is well within Batman's capability to deal with such attributes in an opponent. That said, I am not in any way discounting the potential for Moon Knight to give Batman a decent challenge; with MK's battle prowess and use of tools to level the playing field somewhat, I believe it is easy to see Batman respecting MK for his abilities.

However in the end, I have never, nor I suspect will I ever, see any evidence that Moon Knight could possibly match Batman in the area of strategy and tactics. There is a severe difference between being a trained strategist (even of Moon Knight's calibur) and a Master Strategist (as is the case with Batman). Complete mastery of strategy and tactics are what allow Batman to compete and best opponents with superior physical, paranormal and even mental capacities. His adaptability in the face of combat is such that time and again, entire groups of individuals have faced defeat at his hands simply because he is able to change battle approaches on the spur of the moment with dizzying clarity to maximize his strengths while also focusing on the weaknesses of those he confronts.

In short, Moon Knight has taken a rather exceptional life and utilized the skills he has absorbed to become a "superhero"...whereas Batman has specifically travelled, trained and studied all of his life to become a living weapon and peerless investigator. No skill, knowledge or spare time has been spent in the pursuit of anything but this end. Moon Knight impresses, but Batman triumphs...end of battle.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#43  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Good first post.

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Jynx

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#44  Edited By Jynx

Thank you.

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#45  Edited By JackFlag

Sync says:

"JackFlag says:
"Gas CAN put down MK. But I think you're gonna have to try a little harder than throwing little explosives at him, he's had extensive training in survival, strategy, and combat."

How about drolets that eletrcute the area, or droplets that make high picth sounds, or the old time favoite use today plaine old smoke...."im more than able to name many many more, and even more uses if needed"

Mk is good dam could, but bat is his worst nightmare come to life.

Batman has already done what mk done, ten times better and over again.

Mk is not a master planner like batman.

i do not see mk even using the envioment to his advanatge as batman would, MK"that batrang that miss, that making that nosie ..oh let me guess it going to blow up and be the building down",...BM" using his cable to zoom off, say no as the batplane homes in on the siganl at mach 4 all weapons arm" MK "oh $hit"

thats the level batman plays on, the ever clever ever changing plans that work always to his advantage."

So in other words, if Batman had....prepared for Moon Knight? Had a set-up intended to take him down?

He's clever all right, but you have to remember that he's been trashing the same dozen guys for the past two decades.

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Sync

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#46  Edited By Sync

JackFlag says:

"Sync says:
"JackFlag says:
"Gas CAN put down MK. But I think you're gonna have to try a little harder than throwing little explosives at him, he's had extensive training in survival, strategy, and combat."
How about drolets that eletrcute the area, or droplets that make high picth sounds, or the old time favoite use today plaine old smoke...."im more than able to name many many more, and even more uses if needed" Mk is good dam could, but bat is his worst nightmare come to life. Batman has already done what mk done, ten times better and over again. Mk is not a master planner like batman. i do not see mk even using the envioment to his advanatge as batman would, MK"that batrang that miss, that making that nosie ..oh let me guess it going to blow up and be the building down",...BM" using his cable to zoom off, say no as the batplane homes in on the siganl at mach 4 all weapons arm" MK "oh $hit" thats the level batman plays on, the ever clever ever changing plans that work always to his advantage."
So in other words, if Batman had....prepared for Moon Knight? Had a set-up intended to take him down? He's clever all right, but you have to remember that he's been trashing the same dozen guys for the past two decades."

Thats is true, i will admit, that i am upset that dc and most comics cant come up with new villians, jason todd was ok, the new bat girl becomeing robin nemesis is gold and a step in the right direction.(one of my fav, keep her evil the dirty .....)

Nope, i odnt see batman needing to prepare, as i said in a earlier post batman is prepare, if you allow him or give him more time, than that only worsten the defeat. I feel batman would just appraoch him like anyone else. than apply what ever he felt like to win. I was also such saying that batman has many many tricks, on him, or can use those tricks to create results he wanst that are in his favor, my intent with the post above was to show how batman may, and really has"IMO" acted.

Even if you may match him in thinking, your really not, thats the illusion he creating, and if by some chance you are matching him thinking, he pulls out a new bag of tricks or rabbit out the hat. In above i was just trying to give mk some respect(keeping up with bats takes skills) but show how bat would really be thinking and his true plan was.

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#47  Edited By Sling Shot

For those unfamiliar with Bats, refer to the overrated fighter thread.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#48  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

That didn't add anything to the conversation.

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#49  Edited By Sling Shot

It reinforced and reminded readers the basis of BM's strength in these battles. So yes it added plenty. You ain't gotta like it.S'cool.

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#50  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Nothing's been said that isn't based on past showings or hypes him up to a level he's not at, so pointing to a thread that complains about him being overrated when he's not being overrated in this fight doesn't make sense to me. He does have more skill, he does have equipment that MK can't match or stop, he is smarter, and he would be more likely to win with prep. Maybe I just don't understand the reason you posted.