Batman (TDKR) vs Ra's Al Ghul (Begins)

Both are unarmed in this fight and it takes place where Batman fought Bane the first time. They start 15 feet away from each other. Win via death, KO, or incapacitation.

Round 1: Batman as when he fought against Bane for the first time.

Round 2: Batman as when he fought against Bane for the second time.

Callouts

Apologies if you were called out and weren't interested or weren't called out and were interested

1. Ra's

2. If we believe that Batman was supposed to be back to around his prime self, it could go either way IMO

1. Ra's was able to take on Batman in his prime just fine, so he should be able to beat an out-of-shape and out-of-practice Batman.

2. Batman was closer to his physical peak here and would be fighting Ra's in a more mobile suit this time. I'd go with Bruce in a good fight.

Ra's should win both. He was outskilling a prime Batman and only lost because of the environment. Now he's fighting a weaker version of the character without the wildcard that made him lose the first time.

1. Maybe Ra's, it could go either way

2. Batman stomps

R1- Ra's wins this decisively.

R2 - Really close, gotta go with my gut and say Batman (barely).

Ras in both rounds for me. He was better in straight up hand to hand and the only reason Bruce beat Bane is luck. That second fight was the exact same fight.

Ra's and Begins Batman were basically equals in their fight (as stated by both Nolan and the choreographers IIRC). Though, Bruce had been put through a lot of punishment already, the advantage of the batsuit should have evened that out though, at least a bit.

1. Ra's wins not only because of Bruce's physical depletion at this point, but because his performance in the first fight was fueled by ego and the desire to prove he was as powerful as he used to be, so he tries to outmuscle a physically dominant opponent; fighting like a younger man, with nothing held back. Ra's would exploit that and outdo him.
2. It would be close. The choreography was weaker, but Batman should logically have more skill and experience than his younger self which would make up for the fact he is past his physical prime.

@rogueshadow: Ra's beat Batman in H2H.

Batman needed the environment to win; he exploited it to his advantage. In a pure hand to hand contest, this is what happened to Batman after a decent exchange:

From 2:35 he pins Batman and taunts him. Then, at 3:09 Ra's realizes he's been tricks, Batman capitalizes on that and leaves him to die.

Ra's beat Batman in a fight. This is clearly seen in the video as Ra's beats and chokes Batman.

@smoke-w: Yes, after a lengthy battle, Ra's 'won'. They were fighting and somebody had to win, that's how a fight ends, but the two were supposed to be equals. It's stated in the BTS that the intent was to depict them as equally skilled fighters.

If you really want to pick it apart, then you have to consider the fact that Batman was fighting for time, to keep Ra's busy; not to win the battle but to win the war, just as when Bruce floored Ra's during training, it was only to expose his footing on weak ice, it didn't mean Bruce was more skilled. Bruce had his mind on the long game and when the came time he instantly released himself from Ra's' hold.

And it wasn't solely reliant on the distraction, because Ra's had both hands around Bruce's throat and hadn't changed from this position when he realises what has happened. Once Ra's realises, rather than just lying there holding Ra's hands, Bruce instantly changes tactics and gets out of the hold by grabbing Ra's head instead, indicating he was allowing himself to be held down.

He wasn't even being truly choked out as he was able to speak, which makes sense as he had the suit on. Basically, he was letting Ra's monologue, oldest trick in the book.

Plus, let's not ignore the fact that Batman had been crushed under a wooden beam and left in a fire just hours earlier, then he fought four of Ra's' elite bodyguards, was beaten by a mob of civilians and slammed through scaffolds while holding on to a speeding train. This would have impacted his performance.

@rogueshadow:

I will like to add that Bruce had Ra's on his mercy before "exploiting the environment" as everyone claims to be how he won. He could have killed him anytime

R1) Ra's wins comfortably.

R2) Bruce should win. Basically back to his prime and had a better suit.

Nolan Batman reached his prime after escaping the pit in Rises. That version of Nolan Batman would beat the Batman from Begins/The Dark Knight.

Batman's physical prime was after he escaped the pit in Rises.

Ras both rounds. Clear superior in their fight. And now he's facing a weaker and obviously less skilled Batman.

I don't see why. Batman was 29/30 in Begins whereas he was in his early forties in TDKR, had scar tissue on his kidneys, residual concussive damage to his brain tissue, no cartilage in his knees, practically no cartilage on his elbows/shoulders and was generally scarred. But if you're right then Bruce wins without question.

Also I didn't get to say thanks for the vote in the HoF because the thread was locked by the time I saw it; so... thanks :).

Round 1 - Ra's and it's not even that close. Sure, Bruce will land his fair share of blows and deal some damage to the assassin, but overall he lacks the skill and physicals that Ra's possesses. Ra's 10/10.

Round 2 - Bruce wins after a lengthy and difficult battle. He was a lot more refined at this point, and as others have mentioned he was on par with Ra's back in Begins, so I'd argue he wins with a few bruises and maybe a busted lip. Bruce 8/10, as Ra's still can take a few wins.

@rogueshadow: I don't think age means anything in these films. Bane was in his 40's and that didn't detract from his physical performance. Ra's Al Ghul was in his 40s/50s and it didn't mean anything, he was still able to compete with a young Batman. Yeah he had scar tissue and all that stuff but once he put on his leg brace and trained in the pit the film mostly forgot about his injuries. On paper he was broken/unfit to return but the film still went ahead with it's suspension of disbelief; he goes from barely being able to walk to shattering brick with a kick.

Once we get to the pit sequence Bruce's supposed back heals within a few months. I say Bruce was in his prime in Rises because he was able to tank hits from Bane and shrug them off in the 2nd fight, and we already saw how strong Bane was in the film. He also gets stabbed between his plates after tanking pillar shattering punches from Bane and is still able to carry on for the climax of the film (even more impressive when you consider that at some point he jumps out of the Batwing and swims a lengthy distance....all after having withstood Bane's punches and being stabbed). So on the physical side, I think they amped Batman up for The Dark Knight Rises, generally because the stakes of the film were higher than the previous films.

Also I didn't get to say thanks for the vote in the HoF because the thread was locked by the time I saw it; so... thanks :).

:D

Ra's both rounds.

@frozen: Fair points. Especially regarding Ra's and Bane's physicals well into middle-age, you could probably add fake Ra's to that list. I checked the BTS for Begins, and the two choreographers definitely indicate that their skill level is equal, meaning it wasn't a case of Ra's' superior skill/experience being offset by Bruce's youth making for an even fight.

Though, I'm not sure if tanking shots from Bane is indicative of being in his prime, he withstood a lot of damage in BB/TDK. He fell four stories after being set on fire and drugged in Begins and was still able to get away and call Alfred, getting smashed through scaffolds, fell from the penthouse in TDK etc. I think Begins Batman would have withstood Bane's blows as well, even in the sewer Batman withstood a lot of punishment from Bane.

I'd say post-pit Batman was probably supposed to have returned to his physical prime or near enough to it that it made no difference, only he now had superior skill and experience.

Ra's only takes round 1.

If we're to use the film's nonsense logic that Bruce is somehow superior after getting his spine punched back into place and crawling out of that hole then I guess he'd win that round. Given how close their fight in Begins was I'd say that Bruce, lacking his youthful physically prime body, loses the first round, though. He won that first fight largely because of his gear and the use of his surroundings, as was the point of that confrontation, so without the same circumstances and without his prime bod I can't see why Ra's wouldn't win.

Ra wins the first round.

Batman wins the second.

I think that we're supposed to believe that Rises Batman was his peak. Due to magic, broken back healing, good ol' heroic willpower.

Bump.

Ra's definitely wins round 1, Batman wins round 2.

Makes you realize how stupid Bruce's arc was in TDKR, him magically being better than ever after healing from a broken back

Ra's al Ghul wins both rounds.

Ra’s both rounds

Ra's wins both rounds.

It wasn't just his broken back that healed, he exercised a lot in that pit and learned how to use fear to empower himself.

Didn't he already do that in Begins?

Yeah, but nothing actually suggests that Bruce by end of TDKR is "better than ever," his character arc is just that he is stronger than by end of TKDR, he is stronger than he was at the start of TDKR, not that he is stronger than his BB/TDK self.